Submitted by buncley t3_ztvuph in technology
matrixsuperstah t1_j1foaok wrote
I understand the hardship and I feel for H1-B. I have friends and colleagues in this situation. But is it not part of the understanding that it’s a temporary VISA. There should be some level of preparation for the inevitability of being sent home.
NotARedditUser3 t1_j1frwet wrote
It's very different than in many other countries.
In a lot of countries you can get a temporary residency visa, which after some years can become a permanent residency visa, and after many years you may have a way to apply for citizenship.
For example I've moved from the US to mexico; here, I have my temp residency, i've had it for 2.5 years. In 1.5 years (4 total), I can get permanent residency. A year after that, once i've had 5 years of residency total, I can apply for citizenship here, which takes roughly a year to process.
There's a very clear path and there's little chance of people being upended and sent back to a country they have no further roots in...
For example, if I was suddenly sent back to the US tomorrow... I have no home there. No job. No bank accounts there. I don't have a US cell phone. No home / address means I'd have trouble getting accounts set up for nearly anything; I'd be homeless immediately, probably wasting what cash I have on hotels trying to get things figured out. It's a horrifying proposition to send someone (back) to a country unexpectedly. Impacts their entire solvency and future.
Scrofuloid t1_j1g4hgl wrote
That's how it works in the US too, for H-1B workers -- except for the ones born in India and China.
SeattleBattle t1_j1gdyu5 wrote
86% of H1B holders in 2021 were from India and China, so that is how the system works for 17 out of 20 people.
Scrofuloid t1_j1gful9 wrote
Is that 86% of people who get H-1B visas, or 86% of people who currently are on an H-1B? If the latter, this could be a result of the long wait time for a green card for those nationalities. i.e. most people who go through the system do not have these insane wait times, but Indian and Chinese applicants are stuck in the system for much longer, and thus make up a disproportionate number of current H-1B holders.
Not that that's a good thing, of course. It's incredibly unfair to them.
SeattleBattle t1_j1gkgnb wrote
The former. 86% of new H1B visas given in 2021 went to India (74%) and China (12%). So the problem you referred to of these countries being overrepresented as H1B holders is only exacerbated by the continued heavy proportion of visas given to citizens of those two countries.
I will note that I am trusting a site called www.y-axis.com for this data though, and I've never heard of them before.
Scrofuloid t1_j1gpvap wrote
Got it. I found almost the exact same numbers on the USCIS site, except that in this case it says it includes both new and continuing cases: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/h-1b-petitions-by-gender-country-of-birth-fy2019.pdf
So if I'm reading this right, it looks like the latter of the two scenarios I described.
SeattleBattle t1_j1i3csx wrote
Ahh ok, I definitely could be wrong. I am not an expert on H1Bs. Thanks for doing additional research!
grain_delay t1_j1gm3ep wrote
For Indians, it can take upwards of 20 years of H1B before they get through the green card process. It is not uncommon for them to get married, buy a house, and have kids in this time. It is incredibly cruel to expect them to put their life on hold for decades. H1B folks are equally as qualified as any American worker, I personally work with a lot of them. They absolutely deserve better than the system provides to them today
matrixsuperstah t1_j1gr3px wrote
I agree with you. I’ve worked with very talented H1B holders.
ipooplogs t1_j1gwi9m wrote
You’ll still work with them, they’ll just be back in their home country
possibilistic t1_j1gxotl wrote
Where they don't contribute to our economy. We'd be fools not to have them join us.
We should get as many Indians now as we can before they stop being interested in the US.
grain_delay t1_j1iigg9 wrote
These are folks who will go on to start companies. Some of them will start the next major tech company. America loses soft power by sending them back
[deleted] t1_j1j9ukb wrote
[removed]
Cantina9001 t1_j1gybqr wrote
Those are the rules. India has way too many immigrant applications. Hence the wait. Fair is fair.
hokies314 t1_j1hjomj wrote
The path to legal citizenship for illegal immigrants is shorter than the path for legal Indians on H1B visa
RookieRider t1_j1gwatu wrote
Just because someone deserves something doesn’t mean others have to give it to them. So many other factors beed to be considered.
Sabotage00 t1_j1h4byy wrote
No, those factors fucking don't. If that person has worked for it, earned it, and proved they can keep it - then they fucking deserve it.
Fuck nationalism. Fuck regionalism. Fuck superiority complex. People are people, no matter where they are, and deserve to be treated as people.
RookieRider t1_j1hqwdl wrote
You are missing my point. I am not saying they don’t deserve it. I am saying, the world doesn’t work based on who deserves what. Wall Street execs deserved to be jailed after 2008. I rest my case.
sign_up_in_secondss t1_j1fw26r wrote
the H1B is a dual purpose visa, not a temporary visa
nazbot t1_j1gmk7o wrote
No, it’s dual intent. The visa is temporary but you can also have immigrant intent.
Compared to other visas which are only temporary.
the_mullet_fondler t1_j1gins9 wrote
Except it's a dual purpose visa (with immigrant intent).
ponderousponderosa t1_j1fpykc wrote
It's a cruel situation to live under and America should feel bad about how it takes advantage of these immigrants. This is systemic discrimination that people talk so much about at work
KSRandom195 t1_j1fxhww wrote
It’s a complicated issue.
The existence of immigrant workers drives down the wages for folks that would be able to fill those jobs locally. For instance, the current worker shortage is somewhere around 3 million people. A full two-thirds of that is from immigrants that didn’t immigrate because of new immigration policies put in place during the Trump administration. Because of that we’re now seeing an increase in wages and job mobility because there is less supply of labor for the same demand, and thus price must go up and workers have more power.
I’m not saying what he did was good, but for local workers it’s one of the fuels for the current power struggle around wages and workplace conditions that may end up improving the situation for the worker.
The same applies to H1-B visas, that are popular at large tech companies, but is designed for hiring specialists that are not available locally. Could tech companies find software engineer locally? Absolutely, could they find enough? Probably. But there would be decidedly fewer tech employees, and that would have a similar affect of less supply, which means higher wages. But with H1-B visas there is more supply, and so that depresses wages for the local employer vs if that supply wasn’t there.
Now, that leads to a fun question of why should we try to protect the wages of local employees? After all, these are global companies. The reality is that these companies chose to start or are headquartered in the US because it provides the best place to do their business. So something specific about US policy make the US best able to host these companies, and so logically those companies should be giving back profits through taxes and wages to their local employees.
So I disagree with the notion that Americans should feel bad about this program. It’s a complicated issue with lots of inputs and outputs. It’s actually easier than what some other countries do, and of course is harder than others. As long as we have nation states we will have to deal with this kind of policy issue.
ponderousponderosa t1_j1gasgk wrote
Gross. I didn't realize American was an isolationist country who protected its citizens from competition. I guess it has to be now but that's not going to put us back on top of the world. You're justifying a pretty fucked up policy that takes advantage of people in order to protect the most privileged citizens from a bit of competition. What happened to the American dream? It's still alive for immigrants...
spellbanisher t1_j1gciyp wrote
It's an incorrect understanding that assumes jobs are a zero sum game. But jobs can beget more jobs. For example, a company may wish to expand into AI. But maybe to do so competently it may need to hire at least 50 people. If it can't find enough people it might not make sense to expand into AI at all. By bringing in 25 workers, they would be creating 25 jobs for domestic workers.
Then there is the fact that immigrant workers create demand in other parts of the economy. They eat out, start businesses, buy cars, etc.
Finally, we shouldn't forget that these tech companies make massive profits. They can afford to pay all their employees very well. If domestic workers fear eroding wages, they should organize with immigrant workers instead of dividing themselves.
Fraccles t1_j1gmdkg wrote
The situation is not binary. It is not "immigrants or no immigrants". Saying a reduction of a sliding scale is the same as it being zero just confuses the issue.
You wouldn't respond to someone reducing their speed in a car with "why have you stopped?"
KSRandom195 t1_j1gkqfv wrote
I didn’t say it was a good policy. I said it was a complicated issue and gave some context as to why. I think we should be more free with many policies, but I don’t think the world is in a place we can do that yet.
We need policies to address the world we live in, not the world we wish we did
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