My father served in ww2. I remember him saying, he didn't think the Merchant Marines got the respect they deserved.

Thanks for this!

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My uncle was in the merchant marine bringing oil up the East Coast from refineries in the Carribean. He told me they were easy targets for German U-boats.

Right, 1941 to 45 was “the end”

It was like this for private military contractors during the years I was in AFG. I found one news article mention it back home.

I sat drinking at a bar on veteran's day years back and heard a couple of sf operators talking at the end. Ended up hanging out with them that night. They got a weird look from me when they drunkenly told me Happy Veteran's Day! at the end of the evening before cussing me out for not considering myself a veteran (I was a leo, not a serviceman). I've since heard this sentiment echoed a few times by other servicemen and servicewomen. Real recognizing real and all that. Makes one proud to serve their country, despite in what capacity.

Remember, Merchant Mariners still exist today, helping to keep the global economy PHYSICALLY moving. We go out for months at a time, long-hour days, occasional back-breaking work, and MOUNTAINS of now-corporate paperwork. Mariners were among some of the lesser-known victims of the fears of the recent pandemics, thousands and thousands of sailors, trapped aboard their vessels, WELL PAST relief dates because no foreign ports were allowing crew changes.

I was stuck on a ship from Nov 2020 to May 2021.

Cargo-ships were easily sunk when found. The first year of WWII, the Germans called the east coast of the US the "happy hunting ground" when we were sending supplies to England.

Since Japan was an island empire, their ships were criss-crossing the south Pacific, and books about submarine list them sinking cargo-ship after cargo-ship...

Early in the war, it was often customary to stop the ship, and give the crew a chance to man the lifeboats. However too many submarines were then chased down by destroyers.

Technically not wrong, we ended that shit.

My father had a childhood friend who served in the merchant marine in WW2.

My dad was a little kid 10-14 years old during the war and one of the big boys from the street came home. He didn’t have any of his peers to talk to, they were either working long shifts or away at war and he confided in my dad he was running away. He had seven merchant ships shot out from underneath him and he couldn’t go back to sea. He gave my dad all of his possessions, The toys he was too old for and clothes. This was a big deal with rationing, nobody got anything new.

That was the last my dad ever heard of him… Mexico wasn’t in the war, that was the plan. He said he had done his part!

I hope he made it, seven ships shot out from under him.

Yeah, its not like the US Navy didnt have to hold down an entire theatre of war by themselves for almost two years or anything.

Damn man, that’s a long hitch. I was on the flip side stuck at home not making money because of no crew changes. It wiped me out until I was finally able to go back. Then I was stuck for months, but not as long as you.

"civilian" should be in quotes to a greater or lesser degree

They are deployed, they have restrictions on movement, are under secrets acts, etc.

Interesting note: only US citizens can become US Coast Guard certified Captains (of inspected vessels; aka COI vessels) because just as all US flagged airplanes can be pressed into military service, so can all COI vessels and their Captains.

The rest of the world must not be awake yet.

No one except an American who has never been outside the American narrative bubble thinks America won or ended the war. Not Australians, not Chinese, not anyone in mainland Europe, and certainly not any Russians. Did America help? Of course. Did they win the war? No.

America's ascent as an economic power came largely because America lost so few young men, and suffered no economic damage whatsoever during the war.

It was weird seeing Americans react to countries that finally had rebuilt their economies and populations from the destruction of WWII overtake America in productivity and innovation in the latter half of the twentieth century. Because Americans had this fantasy that the only country not devastated by WWII somehow had some special power or spirit instead of lucky geographical happenstance.

The Indian Army had 2.5 million soldiers fighting in the Burma campaign alone.

The fantasy that the slap fight over colonial island possessions that the American Empire and the Imperial Japan were engaging in was somehow a large part of the overall War in the Pacific is bizarre.

Millions and millions of people from all over the world were fighting there. The US fought Japan over some islands, and carpet-bombed a civilian population, and lobbed Atomic bombs at civilian targets.

America should revel in its actual area of competence: manufacturing and extraction of natural resources in its geographically privileged location. (Of course, it has given up on manufacturing because paying attention to narrative fantasy matters more than protecting national interests apparently.)

Instead it creates this weird narrative about fighting for freedom, that people of the Pacific, under the thumb of competing empires sees as utterly bizarre. The US committed genocide of everyone over 10 years old in the Philippines simply to deny them sovereignty, because the US and Japan were fighting for Empire and control.

The US invaded a sovereign ally in Hawaii, for Empire and control.

And even after WWII was over, the US spent the next 30 years fighting for Empire throughout Asia. The end goal was not peace, or freedom. It was Empire and control.

The war in the pacific was won by Americans.

Sure, China sacrificed much but they did not defeat the Japanese Navy.

What did you do in that time? How did you get food and supplies?

No joke, that Atlantic crossing is a graveyard, I don't think I could sail across it without thinking about all those lost souls.

Or we had a massive population and massive industrial capacity and essentially supplied the Allies with vast amounts of war material. Don’t kid yourself into thinking WWII goes different without American involvement.

that's because they took the money up front.

https://www.statista.com/chart/13790/who-did-the-most-to-defeat-the-nazis/

The islands were only fought over for area denial. The US Navy was trying to contest the entire Pacific ocean.

The Burma campaign was only won in 44, im talking about the US Navy being the only real force conducting offensive operations or contesting the Japanese in the pacific from 41 to 43.

In terms of straight manpower i'm pretty sure the Allied forces in the pacific were pretty much carried by India.

My great uncle served in the merchant marines then wrote a book about it (“Sea War”). 570 merchant ships lost during the war.

US submarine service had about 20% , merchant marine had 4% according to this report. Guess they are comparing Navy, Airforce and Army. But roll the subs off into their own and its highest

By 1945 the US had 3.6 million personnel across the Navy, Marines, and Army in the pacific. China had over 10 million though. China probably takes the cake in terms of numbers.

206 days. I have done a longer one--210--on a non-union boat and boy, that last month is a Hell of a story; rather, a story of a Hell.

But yeah, sailors were desperate on both sides of the coastline. A ship I was on JUST WEEKS BEFORE US lockdowns started happening I later learned had 2 crew (Capt and an Engineer) out of 23 (or so) infected. One died.

It was intense to learn that.

'u-boats off shore' by Hoyt is a great book about this

I dont really count China in terms of allies, because of the civil war it was a White china v Red China v Japan and who was doing what and to who is confusing.

We still got supplies ("stores") in that time--port vendors usually have a test done (when available) to deliver supplies, but for the most part, you just use your stores crane to lift supplies aboard and just send the paperwork back and further via a bucket on a string--no need to go up and down the gangway and get close.

My father was in the Merchant Marine. After the war, he went to college, and then got drafted. As it turned out, it didn’t count as military service, so you could get dragged right back in.

That is odd. China was certainly one of the allied powers. Hell they were on of the parties that issued the Potsdam Declaration.

> The late Marshal Georgi K. Zhukov, in memoirs published on Monday, says U.S. aid to the Soviet Union during World War II was crucial to the victory over Nazi Germany.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-10-20-mn-14622-story.html

I’ll trust the guy leading the soviet army over you.

Im not saying they didnt matter, its just that when I think about China in WW2, I personally put them in thier own sub category in my mind.

I do the same thing with Scandinavia(and screw you nordics, I include Finland).

There was just so much going on that wasnt overt battles that I put them in a different mental sub category.

What did you do for entertainment?

Brother, you Europeans would be speaking German if it weren't for American involvement. We all won it together but it ended favorable once the US got involved. Our ascent to as an economic power has nothing to do with this conversation. We all know what happened to our economy afterwards. Do we kinda suck at being an economic power, I'd say yes but no amount of hate for our country will change facts.

Good point - and I read that the German U-boats lost about 70% of their crews.

They were a lot like the women WASP pilots - deployments, risks, and restrictions but no military benefits.

Captured merchant marines in the Pacific were placed in Japanese POW camps and hell ships, just as members of the military.

Yeah they were all bad Germany had the most, then Japanese and then american. Other countries were just statistical blips due to relative low usage

Civil Service and Contractors have been among the earliest victims of most of this county's conflicts from the Civil War and Indian Wars to Afghanistan. "Civilians accompanying the force" were expected to take up arms to defend the force (or ship). Civilian sulters (commissary personnel) and scouts fought at the Little Big Horn and were awarded Medals of Honor. 40 years later, the government recinded them under pressure from the War Dept that wanted to reserve them for enlisted troops only. To this day, it is not uncommon to see a sizeable number of contractors on Navy ships or installations training and operating specialized systems.

The US has belittled civilian staff and contractors forever. They refuse to treat wounded contractors (beyond stabilizing them), and routinely deny benefits and awards that every other country recognizes as necessary. Dod knows they can't fill specialized positions so they supplement with civilian or contractors in those duties. In fact, it's so common that there are regulations going back to the 1800s regarding civilian "uniforms, messing, arming and even Geneva Convention requirements. Everything you need to soldier for the US except the protection and recognition of your sacrifice. The excuse of "well you're paid more" just highlights the government's inability to properly staff the force.

It was not uncommon to see a KPM employee on a gun truck escorting a convoy or armed civil service unescorted in the countryside setting up communications gear. In fact, those were early casualties in the GWOT. All they got was a ride to Dover. Then, the families had to arrange transportation. Legally, the only entitlement was for Workman Compensation.

Should we recognize that the Armed Forces can't fight alone? Damn straight.

Your Uncle was right. Merchant Marine ships were the primary targets for U-Boats.

True, but the German U-Boats crews that hunted them had an even higher casualty rate: 75%. The Merchant Marine rate was around 3.9%.

They weren’t even given veterans status until years after the war.

LEO is not military and the closer they become to military the more toxic the environment is.

When there is little divide between the two really bad shit happens.

They were true heroes. My oldest uncle was in the British Merchant Navy on the Murmansk run. They had nightly bets as to which ships would be sunk that night by the U Boats. Over 70% went down, average survival time was 3 minutes. He went as a young mid 20s man and returned white haired and looking 60! No one seems to remember their sacrifice.

My 1st cousin was stuck in a designated "reserve ship" by his company off the coast of Malaysia.

He was there from Jan 2020 upto Jun 2021. The only reason he was able to go home was because Malaysia sent inspectors to ensure the ship was following international standards and they discovered quite a few sailors who became stuck like my cousin.

He lost quite a lot of potential wages since all he got for compensation was his basic pay and a few allowances.

Imagine spending most of the pandemic in a single ship who did not even travelled. People will go insane.

Call me a conspiracy theorist but I think militarizing the police force is just a work around the posse comitatus act.

Not that guy but some ships have access to Satellite internet, usually 15$ per Gigabyte of data. Reasonable enough speed and it's guaranteed internet access except for a few "dead zones" that I presume satellites can't reach. So they could still surf the net and be entertained.

Smart ship captains are aware of the importance of keeping the spirits of the crew high, so during resupply they usually order an increased amount of stores so they could throw parties and make the crew feel a lot less isolated. Also karaoke + booze keeps the old sea dogs happy, at least in my observations.

I still remember watching an old Ninja Warrior (long before it went American) episode starting from the initial tryouts where it’s a bunch of weird dorky Japanese dudes in costumes and then in comes this swole white Merchant Marine who surprised everyone and made it close to the grand finale before literally brute forcing himself across a ravine with a pole in a manner that technically disqualified him (despite finishing).

That was when I realized that Merchant Marines were on a different level

Sorry you got stuck out there. I was at anchor in San Francisco when the first cruise liner came in with cases and the passengers were hoarded off and put into fema shelters under military guard.

We were panicking on board about getting off. I was sure that best case scenario I would have to somehow drive across country to get home if I was able to get off since they were talking about shutting down the airports.

I was lucky and got off just days before things really went to shit.

As a former Kings Point student, can confirm lots of my friends have the same story

“One Hand”

There was recently made a movie about merchant sailors during WW2 in Norway. War sailor is the english title, it does a good job in portraiting how rough it was.

My late grandfather served in the Merchant Marines from 1943 until the early 50s. He was going to be drafted in 43', and as a private in the Army he would get paid $25 a month. Since he had steam experience from working for a railroad, the Merchant Marines were offering $50 a month.

He survived two years of the war and never got a scratch. Though he did see ships get torpedoed in the Atlantic, hit mines off the coat of Italy, and saw dogfights when the Germans would attack the convoy that he was in. I interviewed him in 2009 and was able to dig up the history of every ship that he had served on, including one that he spent several years with after the war. It brought tears to his eyes when he finally knew the full history and what happened of his beloved Liberty ships.

He lived to 91 and it has been 6 years since he passed. He was very proud of his service and loved to tell stories of his travels.

My respects.

My dad is an vessel fitter that works on merchant ships.

When COVID broke out he outstayed his contract by 3 months.He stayed 9 months on ship,with 1 month in isolation when COVID stroke the ship.

I also read the best seller “the greatest beer run ever”

Yup, the US strategy was literally to launch ships faster than the Germans could sink them. A disturbing number of the surviving war built liberty ships failed catastrophically right after the war. Merchant Marines were torpedo fodder.

As a consequence, the merchant marine have the most conceptually disturbing WWII memorials of them all.

US bomber command had 50% aircrew killed

> the Germans called the east coast of the US the "happy hunting ground" when we were sending supplies to England.

I've read accounts of nights during the war you could fly from Maine to Florida along the Atlantic coast and never be out of sight of a burning ship.

I think that's the UK's Bomber Command. US Army Air Corps 8th Air Force losses were in the 7% range.

It didn't help they did what America did in every other aspect of both world wars and ignore the lessons its allies had learned from already fighting the war for 3 years. The Americans were slower to adopt the convoy system the brits had been refining that made it significantly safer.

You're right Google gave me UK stats when I googled American stats.

>Cargo-ships were easily sunk when found.

Only until they figured convoys out. The happy period ended when the Brits started rolling out convoys and then ended for good when heavy bombers got repurposed for anti submarine warfare. By the end a U-boat was a death sentence for its crew.

By the end of the war the allies had figured out how to deal with submarine technology of the era. Escorted Convoys made attacks dangerous and near constant aerial patrol by heavy bombers meant that as a submarine surfaced to recharge its battery and replenish its air it'd be reported and hunted.

Well when you make a ship injust over a month, there are going to be some corners cut.

Another overlooked measure that significantly reduced the threat of U-boats was improvements to radar that allowed ships to detect the conning towers of submarines from beyond the horizon and even their periscopes.

My gpa was in the merchant marines. Didnt talk much about it.

Had they equipped the freighters with cannons and depth charges, the survival rates would have been higher. Instead they refused to cut shipping
tonnages & replacing that with armaments. So their greed killed the sailors. Pure and simple.

> liberty ships

Wow, 2710 made, only 4 left.

US admirals were famously Anglophobic, they actively rejected any advice from the British rather than just ignored it.

Convoys? Anti-sub escorts? Zig-Zag? Turning lights and radios off? Pfft, that's just for the weak English.

Hang on, where did all of our Merchants go? Oh, to bits you say...

By mid-war the British had air based radar that could detect a periscope or snorkel in the water, by the end it was just damn unsporting.

Got to tour one. It was surprising they turned them out in such high numbers

Merchant Mariner*

Some mariners ARE former military, an easy way to transition to civilian life while still maintaining a hierarchy.

But yeah, the shit we DO go through kibda steeles ya, a little.

You prolly made a smarter decision than the rest of us, honestly.

"Work and jerk (off)" jk

Pretty much 98% of US fleet has Internet/Wi-Fi. I honestly haven't met a company without Wi-Fi, although a lot of Inland boats or Offshore supply boats are usually in cell range anyway.

Deepsea ships, though, we have some exercise equipment, small book libraries as well as digital media libraries.

But for the most part, provide your own entertainment. For years before the switch, Id bring my GBA/DS and my laptop. Nowadays, PLENTY of guys have their own HardDrives to share movies with if the ship doesn't already have a central server to copy off of. Yarrrr.

Most American ships have crew internet at no extra charge, but I do know a defunct comoany that started to charge their crew (before the company went belly up)

Also, US fleet is dry, thanks to the Exxon Valdez and its relevant legislation, OPA 90.

Accurate.

Also "The Mathews Men" by William Geroux. He focuses on the small seafaring community of Mathews, VA and its men who braved the U-boats.

Things were really dark in Europe in 1941. The UK was holding out, and German really would have struggled to actually invade that island, but the only major combatant still standing other than the Commonwealth was the Soviets. But for Hitler being dumb enough to break the non-aggression pact and invade the Soviet Union, Hitler could have sat back and economically strangled the UK. That war goes really different if the US doesn’t join.

The movie Greyhound starring Tom Hanks showed the intensity of crossing the North Atlantic during WWII. Watched it twice.