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probablybatshit t1_iuhlibs wrote

That's coyotes. They didn't necessarily kill the deer themselves. In fact, they probably didn't this time of year, when fawns have grown big and fast, and all the deer are fat and healthy.

It has been bow season for weeks now, and the past four days have been a special, antlerless muzzleloader season. Lots of people were out there trying to fill their doe tags. The coyotes just need to find dead and wounded deer before/instead of the hunters.

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tauntauntom t1_iuhqp78 wrote

Even then it may be headless because the hunter just wanted a trophy head, and left the body for the scavengers.

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mckeanna t1_iuhs3jn wrote

That was exactly my thought when I saw it. Hunter "field dressed" a deer and scavengers found it and ate it. I hate the practice of field dressing in general especially when they do it near a residence for this exact reason. At least the coyotes got a yummy meal but the hunter's negligence & laziness drew predators into your yard.

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Moist-Adhesiveness78 t1_iuhzxhy wrote

Poachers do that. Not hunters. If a hunter fills their deer tag they are required to check the animal in at a weigh station. Poachers are the lazy jerks with zero respect to the law and to the animals.

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likeahurricane t1_iuifmpu wrote

I think this is a disagreement on terms. I don't consider decapitating a deer for the mount to be field dressing. Field dressing is gutting the deer to prevent spoilage, reduce drag out weight, and help start cooling the body cavity.

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12_Angry_Wombats t1_iuip8o1 wrote

I know this is the VT subreddit, but I've been hunting in Kansas (in-laws) for a decade plus, and out there is no requirement to weigh the deer after you've shot it. We typically field dress where the animal was killed, as long as it's not super close to a residence/farm.

I haven't hunted in VT yet since I moved here, but I just might have field dressed the animal like I always did it KS. Not because I'm a poacher, but because it's what I'm used to doing in another state.

Thank you for saying this though, I'll definitely make sure I read more into this!

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tauntauntom t1_iui8lpi wrote

Thank you for the clarification. I never have hunted so i thought poachers just hunted animals that were protected.

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Moist-Adhesiveness78 t1_iui9xyw wrote

It’s a very common misconception that hunters are only in it for the trophies or for the act of killing. I started hunting nearly 30 years ago and the taking of a life still nearly sickens me. Being connected to the wilderness on a primal level while in the field and that I can bring home humanely harvested meat to my family is what it’s all about for me. Teaching my children that meet doesn’t come packaged from a grocery store (there’s a few steps prior to that) and teaching them to respect the animal and the land is my main goal for the future.

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Jerry_Williams69 t1_iuif1kd wrote

I think most people know that most hunters are good intentioned. EVERYONE hates poachers and trophy hunters. Good hunters sometime get caught in the cross fire.

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disgustorabbit t1_iuim1fo wrote

I’ve always been anti-hunting (for sport, mostly) but this actually makes a lot of sense to do this for your family and for the animals. If we must eat meat, the more humanely it’s done the better. That’s what I think, anyway.

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thisoneisnotasbad t1_iuj6f90 wrote

The one hunting rule in the house is “if you kill it, you eat it”. Mice are exempt. Ants are not.

That and having seen the commercial meat industry in action, I have trouble eating store bought meat.

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tauntauntom t1_iuibld1 wrote

I never meant to offend. I grew up with hunter friends, but never hunted and never asked about it. So I only knew what I learned by listening to them and from media.

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Moist-Adhesiveness78 t1_iuibzqb wrote

I’m not offended at all. No worries. Thanks for having an open mind about it. If more non hunters had open minds like you we would be able to have more effective discussions about land and game management.

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TheBugHouse t1_iuibwfl wrote

That's not entirely accurate, you can check in via phone except for youth and rifle seasons.

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Moist-Adhesiveness78 t1_iuic4z1 wrote

That’s true. I forgot about that. I’ve never checked in via phone so I forgot about that.

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btwnmtns t1_iuhf0p6 wrote

Samsquanch.

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DaddyBobMN t1_iugrpwz wrote

Eastern coyotes have been shown to have a significant percentage of wolf DNA which is why they are larger than genetically purer coyote populations from out west and could explain a somewhat wolf-like appearance in certain individuals.

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Treestyles t1_iui900t wrote

2/3 coyote 1/4 wolf 1/10 dog is the makeup that gets repeated, but i see two types, one more coy one more wolf.

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DaddyBobMN t1_iuilw4e wrote

65/25/10 or therabouts seems to be what studies have found.

It's interesting that there may be a correlation between habitat and genetic admixture based on prey size. Eastern coyotes in more settled or urban habitats of New England have tended to be smaller, like a coyote, and show less wolf DNA in their lineage. Those in more remote habitats, especially where large populations of deer are found, are often larger and this is most likely due to the greater percentage of wolf genetics in their makeup.

So in effect there are two distinct groups of hybrids developing in the northeast over time.

Overall it's a fascinating subject for someone like me with a background in wildlife ecology and evolutionary biology. I am jealous of the folks who get to study stuff like this for a living.

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Jmacaroni25 t1_iuix5zx wrote

They actually have wolves out west though... They don't call coyotes coydogs. And they are actually living in small numbers in the wild so don't you think the coyotes there would have wolf DNA also??? It's because it's colder here with more extreme winters so the animal needs more of a fat reserve and thicker fur.

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Kixeliz t1_iuize9h wrote

The thinking is the numbers are so much smaller for wolves in this part of the world that the wolves end up with coyotes more often. The numbers change with every animal, cause that's how breeding works, but the DNA shows what we see around here is a hybrid of the two (and even some domesticated dog mixed in). Apparently their common ancestor was only 50,000 years ago so they can breed together easily. For some reason this doesn't sit well with people who want the two animals separated. idk if it's because killing coyotes is more acceptable than shooting something part wolf or the associations we have with both animals or what.

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flambeaway t1_iuj4etb wrote

I would assume it's that people want both species preserved, rather than a love for one and a hatred for the other.

Also the only reason we don't have wolves is because killing them is EXTREMELY acceptable, at least historically. It's also why almost every island nation hunted them to extinction centuries ago.

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Kixeliz t1_iuj4sdy wrote

Nah, the ones who seem to be the most against it are hunters or wolf lovers who refuse to think they'd lower themselves to breeding with coyotes. Just my observation. It is weird how the reason the eastern coyote/coywolf exists is specifically because we hunted wolves to extinction, making breeding with coyotes about survival. We both hunted them to extinction and domesticated them and now argue over their percentage of DNA.

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DaddyBobMN t1_iuj8d4t wrote

Coyotes and wolves separated as species relatively recently. The most simplistic reason is one got bigger (stayed bigger is more accurate) and one got smaller and now tens of thousands of years later there is an opportunity for the return of an intermediate sized canid in this particular part of the continent. Wolves are actually found throughout northern latitudes across the globe and smaller canids seem to have diverged from them more than once, coyotes being one example here.

Cold weather is part of the reason, Bergmann's rule covers size in relation to climate, but wolves and coyotes probably also diverged due to prey species and what was available where.

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flapjack2878 t1_iugjqyt wrote

What makes you think a coyote won't walk off with a skull?

Could be a bear that chased the coyotes off a kill

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Jmacaroni25 t1_iuglzrv wrote

Coyotes will literally leave a carcass completely stripped of flesh in just a few hours. If a larger pack was to find it, that would probably just be bone. Leads me to believe it was one or two coyotes not a whole pack. Coywolfs aren't real by the way. Just coyotes with a winter coat that looks a lot bigger than you would think.

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RigatoniGibroni t1_iuhf7ix wrote

Coywolfs are a thing. I researched them extensively during my undergrad.

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NobodySpecific t1_iuhmfea wrote

> Coywolfs aren't real by the way

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_coyote

Eastern Coyotes (which is what we have around here) have both coyote and wolf parentage. To me that makes them a coywolf. Do you have a different meaning of coywolf?

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Jmacaroni25 t1_iui3c8n wrote

Thats still just a coyote. They dont howl like wolves. Wolves are 3 times larger than any of these. And there are no wolves in Vermont and haven't been since at least the early 1900's. 90% of the state was unforested sheep farming pasture. They wolves that may have been here before 1900 were either killed or migrated north to Canada. So that would be 100s of generations of offspring that may have at one point had grey wolf DNA. However if they still have any wolves DNA it's no different than your pet dog having wolfe DNA. And no that doesn't make your Boston terrier and Boston terriwolf

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NobodySpecific t1_iui9flv wrote

No offense here, but I'm going to go with the experts on this one.

> In 2016, the IUCN/SSC Canid Specialist Group proposes the eastern coyote to be a separate species Canis oriens (Latin for "eastern canid") and with a common name of "coywolf" due to its morphologic and genetic distinctiveness.

I don't know your background, but I do know that these people know a lot more than I do, so I'm going to just go ahead and follow their lead.

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jonnyredshorts t1_iuhln2a wrote

Eastern coyotes are a thing…the question is whether they are wolf/coyote hybrids or domestic dog and coyote hybrids…they’re out there, they are much larger than coyotes and smaller than wolves…I’ve seen examples with my own eyes.

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Jmacaroni25 t1_iui4fk9 wrote

Yeah eastern coyote. It's a coyote. Coydog is kinda a wives tail slang word for big coyote. I've only hear older Vermont's refer to them as coydogs. Or people who don't realize they are just coyotes. They aren't huge either. Wicked fluffy but usually weigh 50lbs or less full grown. Coydogs, coyotes, tomato, Toma'to

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Vermonter623 t1_iuhh162 wrote

Here’s a scary fact. When a coyote is shot in the leg it will try and chew the leg off. It can do it in a scary amount of time. I’m surprised there is so much meat left on that deer

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BionicYeti t1_iuib7wr wrote

Fellow new Englander here. Avid outdoorsman. You’re looking a combo kill. Coyotes are responsible for the picked clean carcass. Bobcat is responsible for the missing head. Felines go for the throat and sever the head, coyotes go for whatever they can get.

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richstowe t1_iuhih2m wrote

Don't eliminate Rover and Fluffy . Dogs can become hunting packs.

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rosie666 t1_iuhkc6g wrote

Champ has moved on land.

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redwolf1430 t1_iuhlwka wrote

looks like samsquatch did it.

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Cobdain t1_iuhnfe4 wrote

Bobcats take heads

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Jerry_Williams69 t1_iuifgmr wrote

I'm guessing a deadbeat took the head for a mount and left the corpse.

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cobo973 t1_iuhmdhu wrote

Oh bud that’s the Cold Hollow coyote pack. Not good. Stay inside

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usernmtkn t1_iuhsp3u wrote

Damn nature, you scary!

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youmustthinkhighly t1_iuhy5ts wrote

Coyotes don’t decapitate? I saw a coyote rip a dogs head clean off.. must not have followed the rules.

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TheBugHouse t1_iuic2kp wrote

100% coyote... either roadkill ot injured by hunter would be my guess.

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cryospam t1_iuir12a wrote

Definitely Raptors.

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duggyratzo t1_iuj79bm wrote

Wolfman stopped by for the holiday

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ABadMagician t1_iujnd4y wrote

Oh that was Brody- the wolf boy

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Thetoonshow t1_iuhxw6w wrote

It’s Rob Schneider in The Animal

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QuasarBurst t1_iuigcdh wrote

La Chupacabra on a leaf peeping trip

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RNFlord t1_iuis4d0 wrote

Demogorgon

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joshe92 t1_iuj0kyr wrote

What town? In Colchester a neighbor has a game camera and caught a bobcat devouring a deer and its fawn on their property a few months back. This looked very similar to that.

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MortaLPortaL t1_iujdep7 wrote

That's metal as fuck to be fair.

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jdmelbo t1_iujx4ri wrote

The Predator is to blame beware and take cover.

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ToadOnPCP t1_iuhsbzl wrote

Looks like a Wendigo or Skinwalker

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greenmtnfiddler t1_iui0804 wrote

Hunter took the head, hide, and best meat, coyotes did the rest.

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dillydally85 t1_iuiv8dk wrote

That is completely incorrect. There are no "Trophy" deer in Vermont or at least very few. no one is head hunting here. A poacher would have left a gut pile and taken the entire carcass home to butcher it properly without the risk of getting caught.

Most likely, this was a deer that was wounded by a hunter that landed a bad shot. a pack coyotes found it either dead or dying and tore it apart. Unfortunately this is not an unusual sight during hunting season.

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greenmtnfiddler t1_iujtj3j wrote

I totally agree with where you're coming from, you're prob. 100% right -- but I have known someone who'd take the head to make coathooks for the tourists and the backstrap/tenderloin for dinner and leave the rest. Had a bad back and wouldn't bring the deer in, too hard to drag. This was in the Adirondacks, tho, in an area somewhat...woollier... than Vt, except for maybe the Kingdom.

(Didn't say I liked the guy)

:/

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kpmcg20 t1_iui3t3t wrote

Skinwalker

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Oeslian t1_iuiehlk wrote

Everyone is saying coyote but I had Pumas leave several carcass like this in my yard when I grew up in California. Cats go for necks and take the heads. Not unheard of for a Catamount to take down a deer but they prefer smaller prey or scavenging. Maybe this deer was already wounded.

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