Vermont listed as possible future habitat for mountain lions

Submitted by willynillyslide t3_10ekqjh in vermont

link: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/12/opinion/cougars-migrating-east.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

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>It’s clear the Eastern United States has the space, and the right type of space, for cougars to exist comfortably — if we allow it. Our growing understanding of the cats and the benefits they provide to ecosystems, other wildlife and people should inform that decision.
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>Wary of humans, cougars feed mainly on deer and smaller prey. The risk of a cougar attack — on people or domestic animals — is extremely low, and almost zero with pragmatic precautions. Fewer than two dozen people have been killed by cougars in North America in the past 100 years. (Males range in size from 120 to 180 pounds, depending on where they live; females are much smaller, ranging from 70 to 110 pounds.) Scientists estimate a recolonization of the Eastern United States by cougars could reduce deer-vehicle collisions by 22 percent over 30 years, averting 21,400 human injuries, 155 human fatalities and over $2 billion in costs. The return of cougars to South Dakota in the 1990s, for example, reduced costs of deer-vehicle collisions by an estimated $1.1 million annually.
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>Coexisting with cougars will require education around perceived versus actual threats, what benefits the cats bring and how to be around them safely. This is especially important for people living on the front lines of a cougar comeback, like rural ranchers and small-livestock owners.
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>Eastern states must adopt policies that protect cougar habitats and address broader implications of living alongside these cats so that ones like those spotted in Illinois and Minnesota have somewhere to land. In part, this means state wildlife plans with protections that list the species as endangered, threatened or of greatest conservation need until their numbers are sufficient to reduce these protections.
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>Addressing the legitimate concerns of communities sharing habitat with cougars will help to ensure the successful, long-term existence of the species in the Eastern United States.
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>It took nearly 20 years for cougars to expand eastward across just 100 miles of human-dominated landscape between the Black Hills of South Dakota and the Pine Ridge area of Nebraska. Without actively reintroducing cougars in the East, it could take decades for the cats to do it themselves.
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>We could wait for the cats to make their way east or we could choose to support the cougars’ return by re-establishing them there, a prospect I never thought would be possible during my formative years as a scientist tramping through New England forests. Our research, however, points to areas in the Northeast that would support self-sustaining populations. These places are characterized by lower livestock densities than other areas we identified and are complemented by local people who view wildlife as more than a resource to be exploited.

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NothingToSeeHere1670 t1_j4rxg0c wrote

I’ll take anything that’ll help control the deer and therefore tick population, having mysterious cool cats in the woods is just an extra plus

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Grower182 t1_j4spak5 wrote

I think the tick problem is cause by a loss of woodland birds like grouse.

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[deleted] t1_j4tbrfx wrote

Also by the lack of harsh winters that used to kill them off.

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NonDeterministiK t1_j4tekw8 wrote

I thought this also, but in fact ticks can survive very harsh winters by being on mammals

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Szabko t1_j4votiz wrote

Ticks are also attracted to Japanese Barberry which is in invasive ornamental plant that self-propagates in the woods. Nurseries sell it. Eradicate that plant and you eradicate a lot of tick habitat, but also invite some opossums to help because similar to grouse they also love eating ticks.

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bond___vagabond t1_j4w2osk wrote

Rattlesnakes too, I can't remember, but I think each adult rattler eliminates 50,000 ticks per year, just from the mice it eats eliminating the larval stage of the tick lifecycle!

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BothCourage9285 t1_j4upvjt wrote

That's a myth. Tick population is most directly tied to the mouse population.

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weareami t1_j4v4e14 wrote

Its all connected! Ticks feed on many mammals

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NothingToSeeHere1670 t1_j4v23lo wrote

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25118409/

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BothCourage9285 t1_j4vpfen wrote

Hate to point out the obvious, but VT is not CT. Our deer density is completely different along with our residential development.

Technically, the tick population is tied to drought and the nut crop. Bumper crop for nuts equals a high survival rate of all mammals, but the mice and small ground mammals are where the tick larvae feed. Only ticks surviving to adulthood feed on deer and larger mammals.

They're considering vaccinating mice against lyme to reduce the spread-

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/vaccinating-mice-may-finally-slow-lyme-disease/

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NothingToSeeHere1670 t1_j4weqrd wrote

“VT is not CT” … proceeds to link another study in CT. Anyways, you’re not wrong! We’re just looking at it from different views. Mice provide the host for young ticks, but deer provide hosts for breeding age ticks. Any effort to tackle the issue is worth it in my opinion, and I do wish we had more data to see what’s going on here in VT.

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bond___vagabond t1_j4w263y wrote

Oregon transplant here, they have a lot of cougars in Oregon, anecdotally they don't mess with cows that much out there, they can be hard on sheep though, so might be even less hassle for the farmers here than in Oregon, since it's a lot of dairy farming out here, and if there's big sheep farms here I haven't seen them. Central Willamette valley in Oregon is just sheep, sheep everywhere, hah.

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here_f1shy_f1shy t1_j4rhnxc wrote

In before the comments section war starts with the "They're already here" folks vs the "No they're not" folks.

Leettss ggoooo. 🍿

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Confused_Fangirl t1_j4tz2fc wrote

Ikr but it’s hard to tell when you’re hiking and you see a flash of black in front of you. You know it’s a wild animal, but no idea WHAT the hell it is.

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RoyalIndependence500 t1_j4rh782 wrote

I would think the Adirondacks would be the best place in the east for reintroduction, especially the western Dacks, like the Five Ponds Wilderness Area. I’ve lived in cougar country in New Mexico and California when I worked for the US Forest Service. I think it would take a lot of education for folks to be comfortable with them in Vermont, honestly.

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meinblown t1_j4sgfws wrote

They are already there in the Adirondacks. Also just this past summer there was one spotted multiple times right in Colchester.

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McGrupp1979 t1_j4tq98a wrote

Link?

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ThePizzaTimeBandit t1_j4v8o9l wrote

They don't have a link because people love citing unverified sightings as fact.

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meinblown t1_j4ugna4 wrote

Oh, I'm sorry. Did you think this was somewhere other than reddit? We don't fulfill wishes here.

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McGrupp1979 t1_j4vlp7m wrote

You’re right it’s Reddit where, as another Redditor pointed out, people love to cite unverified information as facts.

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meinblown t1_j4w4cal wrote

I've seen trail cam pictures of them in the Adirondacks, and gone out to those spots and seen the tracks. Calm down.

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-sallysomeone- t1_j4s5wrw wrote

I moved to FL from VT/NH and I gotta say, at least it's not alligators!

I miss being able to swim in the crisp New England waters. Kayaking or just floating around are some of the Earth's best things

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texmarie t1_j4s9rla wrote

They used to be all over VT. The museum in Montpelier has the body of the last one shot in the state in their lobby.

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here_f1shy_f1shy t1_j4sgvdp wrote

There is one in a barber shop in Downtown Randolph that I heard the same story about!

Edit: Downtown Randolph not Randolph Center.

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willynillyslide OP t1_j4se796 wrote

Benefits include: making the UVM Catamounts mascot make sense again

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WormLivesMatter t1_j4thlqv wrote

Mountain lion, cougar, catamount, panther, puma are all the same animal.

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lantonas t1_j4x7u8d wrote

Don't tell that to the people that think the Catamount is extinct.

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bond___vagabond t1_j4w34cc wrote

That is a plus: a certain type of person really really hates changing outdated school mascots, lol

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thomaschazzard t1_j4rxgam wrote

I lived in Colorado where there were a lot of mountain lions. Human attacks are almost non-existent. We need to reduce the deer herd through either the reintroduction of mountain lions or wolfs. Deer are on the biggest vectors for ticks which could be a big cause for why Vermont is overrun with them. So I am all for bringing the big cats back.

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[deleted] t1_j4tbytj wrote

I think I speak for everyone in preferring the big kitties to wolves.

Wolves are cool too, but they are way more likely to come into conflict with humans.

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endeavour3d t1_j4u3euj wrote

cougars attack and kill humans orders magnitude more than wolves ever have, wolves tend to avoid humans for the most part, if anything, they attack dogs and cats, but so do coyotes generally.

-for the people downvoting me, have you ever actually looked up the statistics? It's far more likely they'll attack each other than another person.

Cougar: >A total of 126 attacks, 27 of which were fatal, have been documented in North America in the past 100 years.

Wolves:

>PAST 100 YEARS; reintroduction in the lower 48 in 1995 Fatal United States (lower 48): 1 (pet wolf) United States (Alaska): 2 (1 predatory, 1 rabid) Canada: 2 (1 predatory, 1 captive) Nonfatal United States (lower 48): 3 (1 brain damaged, 2 captive) United States (Alaska): 7 (3 predatory, 3 rabid, 1 agressive) Canada: 15 (10 predatory, 2 agressive, 1 captive, 1 rabid, 1 provoked)

>EVER RECORDED Fatal United States (lower 48): 14 United States (Alaska): 2 Canada: 5 Nonfatal United States (lower 48): 12 United States (Alaska): 8 Canada: 21 (2 in Arctic Circle)

https://pounceconservation.weebly.com/how-common-are-wolf-attacks.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_cougar_attacks_in_North_America

https://wolf.org/wolf-info/factsvsfiction/are-wolves-dangerous-to-humans/

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[deleted] t1_j5uhbz8 wrote

27 fatalities for cougars, 21 for wolves. That's a very small difference. There are also about twice as many cougars in the US as wolves, so that seems to be mostly related to their population difference and possibly variance.

But there's just one flaw in that logic: unlike wolves, cougars live very close to humans out west, especially in California and Colorado. There are urban mountain lion populations in Los Angeles and the Bay Area. Millions of people hike in foothills where mountain lions live, and while sightings are common, attacks are extraordinarily rare. When they do happen, it's typically a juvenile lion that tragically mauls a small child who wandered too far away from their adult humans. Cats are ambush predators. They generally only pick easy fights, and humans aren't easy prey.

Wolves live nowhere near people, for the most part. Eastern coyotes are also wolf hybrids, and are closely related. My aunt was actually attacked by a coyote pack in MA. Packs of coyotes have killed small dogs being walked by women. They are far bolder than mountain lions. Also, just look at what a huge political issue wolves have become out west, now that the wolves aren't on the brink of extinction anymore. Ranchers want to kill every last one of them all over again, because wolves have no fear of humans.

I suppose no one is really that objective about this topic, though. Mostly comes down to whether you like domestic cats or dogs more. Either wild variant will kill you if you pick a fight with one, without a stick that goes boom. At any rate, nature needs another apex predator around here. If nature picks the big doggos, so be it. I'd just prefer the big kitties.

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ninjamansidekick t1_j4tynoz wrote

Coyotes cause enough problems, I imagine a pack of wolves would cause similar problems on a larger scale.

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OutOfTheLimits t1_j4vu4sb wrote

Similar deal.. definitely was on my mind for early AM trail runs solo, but not enough of a deterrent to ever stop me. And most of the time not something I was too worried about. More likely to trip and fall. Grizzlies would change my habits. But cats? Let's gooo

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thomaschazzard t1_j4vy4wd wrote

I often felt like I was being watched during early morning or late runs on trails along the continental divide. I saw lots of prints but never had a visual of a big kitty.

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Galadrond t1_j53pv80 wrote

Having a handful of Wolf packs running around up and down the State would not be an issue. Especially if the Parents have tracking collars on. Green Mountain National Park would be a great place to reintroduce them to.

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lantonas t1_j4x82nx wrote

But think of all the dogs that people let roam free!

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thomaschazzard t1_j4xdh2s wrote

Responsible dog owners should not let their dogs roam free. Especially at night when the cats do most of their hunting.

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GraniteGeekNH t1_j4rhs2s wrote

Wow, the post has been up 4 minutes already and we haven't had a single response saying "I saw one in <some New England location> - I know what I saw, Fish & Wildlife is denying it because of <some weird conspiracy> and there was that one hit by a car in Connecticut so I must be right!"

Such self-restraint by redditors!

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Eagle_Arm t1_j4rqtsa wrote

I saw one walking around near Burlington. Clear as day. Thing was 6 feet tall, walking on it's hind legs and grabbing at people trying to eat them! Or those might have been high-fives.

I'm also not sure who put them in a UVM shirt.

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TwoCanSee t1_j4s6v1z wrote

I just posted that they’ve been seen in CT. So here ya go.

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ceiffhikare t1_j4uyf9u wrote

Well idk what i saw up back a couple years ago. all i know is that i watched 3 doe mosy across the hillside and then about 15 minutes later this..animal that moved with a feline gait and stood about 3 1/2' at the shoulder was trotting along in their wake.

Im thinking it was Some kind of ML, had paw prints the size of my palm,lol.

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greenmtnfiddler t1_j4sm17b wrote

I was busy earlier, sorry. Have now caught up, see other comment.

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FyuckerFjord t1_j4sa10c wrote

I read a lot about these fascinating cats and watched quite a few vids, but I'm still scared of them moving in all around me and I have many questions. Like, do you ever become too old for cougars or do your cougars just get older with you? Can I age out of my cougars the way DiCaprio does with his models? Would like to know these things and more before they get to Vermont, thanks!

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DanLiguori t1_j4rmlfu wrote

If they aren’t here now, cats should be introduced. If they are, we should add more. Simple as.

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Twombls t1_j4rs0ye wrote

I would be fine with this. Imo we need to introduce more predators so we can stop relying on hunting to control animal population.

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brothermuffin t1_j4sfplz wrote

Saw enormous feline prints in the snow in Calais two years ago. Maybe I was mistaken but others have made similar claims…

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blutbad_buddy t1_j4t5caz wrote

5 years ago in Woodbury I had direct register prints through fresh snow that had the length of stride and size of paw to be nothing smaller than a large German Shepherd. They generally looked like cat prints but had been melted a bit by bright sunlight and wind. Damn VT weather! lol I got several new neighbors the following summer and that ended that. Also, no more dear at the apple trees, no more bears at the apple trees, no more rabbits around the yard and the turkeys have moved their preferred path about .3 miles down the road.

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WaitWhatAntidote t1_j4syxhm wrote

Hope y’all have indoor cats.

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Falconlordhank t1_j4tbjep wrote

You shouldn't let your cats roam outdoors anyway, but that's a discussion for another time. Bring back the big cats!

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johannthegoatman t1_j4ti7m1 wrote

If you're implying because they kill birds as everyone likes to repeat, you should know that every major study on this subject has found that feral cats kill a ton of birds, cats with a home/food do not.

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Falconlordhank t1_j4u6k8e wrote

There are plenty of well fed cats that like to hunt, but the major thing is their shit.

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WaitWhatAntidote t1_j4uisq8 wrote

I knew a cat that would collect his kills and pile them next to each other. Some beings just like killing

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Falconlordhank t1_j4utn83 wrote

I don't understand how people think dogs should be kept on leashes and that you should have to pick up after them(I agree with all that), but then will just let their cat out to roam free and shit anywhere they want.

Theres a reason you aren't supposed to clean a litter box if you're pregnant. AFAIK its fine to pick up your dogs poop though.

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WaitWhatAntidote t1_j4uv2l8 wrote

It was a barn cat. It was suppose to kill. Killed a ton of mice

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Falconlordhank t1_j4v09xw wrote

Cool I guess? Doesnt make unsupervised outdoor pet cats any less of a nuisance.

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BeckyKleitz t1_j4vnfbz wrote

Yeah, my indoor/outdoor cats are not a nuisance to anyone but ME (when it rains, and they refuse to go outside to shit in our woods which means I have to do extra cleanings of the litter boxes). I have no neighbors, except the Amish folks across the road and they LIKE my cats keeping the rodent population in their barn in check. My cats are too busy napping and eating and mouse chasing to worry about damn birds.

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Falconlordhank t1_j4vs3gd wrote

Its not the birds, its the shitting in the woods. Cat shit is likely to carry toxoplasmosis, especially in cats that hunt. Maybe nuisance isn't the right word, let's go with public health hazard instead

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BeckyKleitz t1_j4wedmt wrote

Just say you don't like cats and be done with it. Geez. It's not that hard.

We have all manner of critters shitting in the woods around here. Guess I should lock up all the squirrels, rabbits, opossums, raccoons, chipmunks, turkeys, eagles, owls, gophers, moles, mice, coyotes, foxes, bobcats, and crows too maybe?

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Falconlordhank t1_j4wh93s wrote

I love cats, honestly. I don't like people who think that they shouldn't have to take responsibility for the animals they adopted bc "its just a cat". And all those animals you listed; besides maybe foxes and bobcats, aren't at much higher probability for carrying toxoplasmosis, but are wild animals anyway so its a strawman argument.

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BeckyKleitz t1_j4y1paq wrote

I have 8 cats--all rescues that other people dumped and refused to take responsibility for. They are all spayed and neutered, have their shots and get regular vet visits as needed. I have 3 cats that are 15 and 16 years old. When we lived in the city, I only had the 3 and they stayed inside. The other 5 were dumped on me HERE, out in the country on the dead end road I live on.

It's pretty shitty of you to call me irresponsible when I am the only one in these cats lives that ever DID take responsibility for them. They aren't out at night--they're all piled up on me, or in their favorite cat beds spread around the house. The last time I saw one of my cats with a bird it was one that was frozen right out of the sky during the sub zero weather we had, and I know that's how she got it cos I saw the thing drop.

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Falconlordhank t1_j4y9g8a wrote

How many times do I have to say this, its not the birds that concern me. It's the contaminated water. Ill give you that outdoor cats are pretty far down the list of things that need to change ASAP to keep our waters clean, but its also by far the easiest.

Also, thank you for giving them a loving home. That is more important than anything else, it would just be nice if people would keep a handle on them to avoid contamination of our waters.

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BeckyKleitz t1_j50mezz wrote

What water are my cats going to contaminate? We are not near any bodies of water that they could possibly effect.

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Scoons t1_j4vayl4 wrote

Outdoor cats live half as long as indoor cats, so you’re reducing their life span by subjecting them to predators, disease, cats, injury, etc. It’s more than the devastation they do to bird and small animal populations.

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woburnite t1_j4sl2mo wrote

They are already here. I saw one back around 1990.

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Jsr1 t1_j4slyil wrote

Already here, if the state acknowledge them then they have to deal with them. There is border camera footage of a cat, looks like a house cat with a long tail… until you realize the size is way off and it’s massive.

These are highly intelligent apex predators that have learned to avoid humans and huge ranges.

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BeckyKleitz t1_j4vmrme wrote

Also, I think that people who own land where they've been spotted are tired of them being killed off by stupid 'trophy' hunters and the govt. and so are not reporting their presence any longer. I have family still up there, and friends and they tell me every couple of years about seeing one while out hiking or hunting. I honestly don't think they ever really 'left'. I think they moved further north and the ones seen in Vermont are either just passing through or possibly trying to expand their range. I'm not a zoologist so I have no clue, but I know I'VE seen one (back in the 90's outside of Underhill), and folks I know have seen them. We really have no reason to lie about it.

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weareami t1_j4v4b09 wrote

It has been proven time and again that hunters are not able to possibly lower deer populations to a healthy level without increased bag limits or more doe hunting, im all for it!

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Fantastic_Painter_15 t1_j4rlzpg wrote

Alternative headline “wild animals will go wherever they feel like going, because they’re wild animals”

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r1kk1-t1kk1-t4v1 t1_j4vslib wrote

Our VT homestead was visited by a cougar 3 years ago. It was interested in our sheep and goats. We were able to finally scare it off through a combination of aimed gunfire and lots of noise (dog barking, wife banging pots and pans).

Now we have a Great Pyranees and she keeps the predators away.

EDIT: We are in the Chateauguay Wilderness in the center of the state. Miles and miles of connected forest.

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smoggyburrito66 t1_j4rjfjw wrote

There is no population that lives here year round as I understand it. I imagine once in awhile one passes through. I know one went through CT a few years ago and they had collar data on it.

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greenmtnfiddler t1_j4slsc9 wrote

>cougar

You spelled "catamount" wrong

>future habitat

You spelled "current" wrong.

;)

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fergal-dude t1_j4tkj9s wrote

As a free ranging chicken owner, there would be trade offs?

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Galadrond t1_j53qebl wrote

There would definitely be programs to compensate Farmers for any animals lost to Cougars or Wolves.

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fergal-dude t1_j53qyqs wrote

They are pets as well rather than livestock. It’d just be a shame for us, great for the cats though.

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Galadrond t1_j53pf5s wrote

Bring back the Catamount AND Wolves.

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Anxious-Captain737 t1_j4utkuz wrote

Vermont is full of cougars man you go down to Burlington and the bars are full of those old grannies chasing little boys

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Belastin t1_j4rs4p3 wrote

Man the hunting seasons are hard enough, imagine having to compete with natures perfect killing machine?

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NobodySpecific t1_j4s4x8e wrote

The deer are a legitimate problem that is not solved with hunting alone. "Not enough deer to hunt" is not a problem for the vast majority of people, because the goal is to drive the population down.

Even better, I suspect the cats are better at targeting the weaker ones, so the deer you do have left to hunt should tend to be bigger and healthier, even if there are fewer of them.

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Belastin t1_j4s54ba wrote

Definitely will be a boon to the ecosystem! I just wrote my post as a joke (I am terrible at hunting :-/ )

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bobsizzle t1_j4ry3s9 wrote

I'd be ok with this, but there are other ways to control the deer. Start killing more and use the meat to feed inmates.

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TwoCanSee t1_j4s6px0 wrote

They’ve been seen in Connecticut so nothing new here.

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DaddyBobMN t1_j4se3sk wrote

Transient, not a population yet. There's a biological distinction.

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TwoCanSee t1_j4seajy wrote

Didn’t they say that about coyotes?

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DaddyBobMN t1_j4sn3qy wrote

Maybe in the past. Things change in nature over time.

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CumSicarioDisputabo t1_j4ttyqx wrote

No. Was glad when I moved to the northeast that I didn't have to watch out for Grizz and big cats.

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captainogbleedmore t1_j4s2hxr wrote

If they eat turkeys then the more the merrier.

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