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[deleted] t1_j6gtfy2 wrote

I thought all NATO countries had to be democracies.

We need to start talking more about all the fraud that occurred in the last Turkish election, and whether Erdogan is even a legitimate president.

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roninPT t1_j6hcj39 wrote

No, for example when Portugal joined NATO it was very much a dictatorship, it was anti communist and had important islands in the Atlantic and that was all that mattered really

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Sad-Internet-9363 t1_j6h92ty wrote

I tought every country has right to veto? So what if turkey wanted to use it? Doesnt matter whats the motive behind it. Where were finland and sweden years ago? What did trigger them to join nato now?

Ye downvote me to hell 🫰

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LewisLightning t1_j6hbfa2 wrote

Yes, but NATO is an organization that's supposed to work together, if Turkey isn't working together why should it remain in the group? So it very much matters what Turkey's reasoning is, if it's a legitimate concern for the overall well- wing of the organization that's one thing. If it's for their own political or financial gain or just to be petty then perhaps its membership should be reviewed.

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Sad-Internet-9363 t1_j6hc853 wrote

Why it has to be legimate claim? They could just veto it like other eu countries hold romania and bulgaria back, greece hold macedonia back. Whats the problem here i dont really see. If turkish army doesnt wanna fight beside swedish army which applied ambargo on turkey for years, i dont see any problem them to veto this tbh. I also dont understand where were sweden finland before? When all nato share their arms to empowered together? Turkey lost many soldiers in south korea to join nato. Its their right to use their veto imo.

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Mormegil1971 t1_j6hhg9h wrote

It is true that Turkey was a part of the Korea conflict. But back then, it was a country still influenced by Mustafa Kemal, which was stongly secular and one of the great leaders of the time (he still would be one, had he been alive today!).
Since then, there has been a couple of coups, the invasion of Cyprus, amongst other things, like attacking kurdish organizations who were fighting against ISIS. Even some quiet support of ISIS, if one is to beleive certain sources (like members of the US congress).
There is also jailing of critical journalists, and of political opponents (the mayor of Istanbul was a high-profile one example, recently). The beating of protesters at a Turkish state visit to the US is another example. So, ever since Atatürk, Turkey has changed. It is, sadly, not the same nation as it was back then.

Neither is NATO the same organization as it was back then. At that time, it was to work against communism and the Soviet Union. Communism is gone, so is the Soviet Union. NATO has become a organization which promotes democracy and freedom more than one to combat communism at all costs.

Still, it has the right to veto, as it still is a member. Though, I wonder how many of the current members would have been let in by Turkey now, if they hadn't been members already?

I used to be all for a NATO membership. But if it means supporting Erdogan, changing our constitution, having political courts and having no free speech, we would only remake ourselves in the image of Erdogan. Then it is not worth it. We will then instead strengthen our defenses on our own, and if we then die alone in the defence of freedom, so be it. It is preferable to being under the thumb of a pseudo-dictator, or real dictator, of any nation.

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Rirotto t1_j6hexy9 wrote

It went something like that, during WWII Russia suffered big losses when attacking Finland and in order to focus their efforts somewhere else Russia proposed a neutrality pack with Finland and other Scandinavian countries (unsure about this part). So Finland become a neutral country in exchange for Russia pulling their military and taking a piece of their land. They want to join NATO because they do not trust Russia to honour their agreement towards them and are seeking a protection kind of thing which all in all is beneficial for NATO countries as it puts even more landmass between core members and Russia. I hope this makes sense and should be accurate enough information for you to look into it further if you are interested.

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mydogisanassholeama t1_j6hgdrf wrote

Romania, Bulgaria and North Macedonia are all members of NATO. You are confusing it with the schengen zone. Turkey needs to be kicked out of NATO.

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Sad-Internet-9363 t1_j6l8wj9 wrote

In your dreams babyyyy yeeeeeehaw 🤠🤠🫰 i meeeaaaan what were sweden and finland doing all these years 🤣 now they are so hasty about getting into nato. 💀 Hope they manage it 🥰🥰

−2

ChristianBP84 t1_j6gq4py wrote

Ok Biden, you know what to do. More F-35’s to Greece!

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Patient-Lifeguard363 t1_j6gt9dd wrote

That solves nothing just speeds up Turkiye TF-X program more it was supposed to fly in 2025 now they are saying it will be flying in 2024 same with Kizimale was supposed to fly in 2023 but already stated flight back in late 2022.

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Bovinae_Elbow t1_j6gufvf wrote

Good, let them spend more, not sure how much longer the world will be dealing with that lunatic erdogan.

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Patient-Lifeguard363 t1_j6guy0e wrote

You mean western countries, not the world even a lot of Eastern European countries like Poland is having a close relationship with Turkiye in terms of defensive and military projects same goes for Ukraine they have many military tech corporations with ASELSA. What I say is if this happens it just means Turkiye will soon be totally independent in making their own weapon they will no longer need F35 as the TF-X will replace it but will as for the US to give back the 1.4 billion dollars they give to buy F35.

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Bovinae_Elbow t1_j6hb8al wrote

Turkey will never make a jet comparable to the f-35. If China and Russia can’t make anything comparable to it, no way can turkey. Making a cost effective drone for countries that can’t make their own does not translate into making an aerospace industry that rivals America. You’re delusional.

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Scapenator1 t1_j6gy4xa wrote

With what money?

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Patient-Lifeguard363 t1_j6h0ez7 wrote

With their own money, they made Kizilma, TB2, Akainci, Typhan, and several dozens of other weapons.

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Berova t1_j6hewt6 wrote

So Baykar and Turkish Aerospace Industries are state owned so their profits are the state's profits?

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dr4kun t1_j6h06cb wrote

>Poland is having a close relationship with Turkiye in terms of defensive and military projects same g

Do you have a good source so i can read more? I could only find some generic statements and initial agreements from 2021, but most of it is just things under NATO umbrella.

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Patient-Lifeguard363 t1_j6h0uc4 wrote

Same a lot of it is under tight restrictions but there is something going on with a lot of defense pacts and treaties also deal sign by both sides before and especially during the war in Ukraine.

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pmmichalowski t1_j6hldnl wrote

1.4 billion dollars is nothing in budget for developing modern airplane. The amazingly well designed Turkish weapon systems are relatively cheap.

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Lazorgunz t1_j6gpf4p wrote

once ruzzia is finished its time to reevaluate Turkey.

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Sad-Internet-9363 t1_j6hb58j wrote

Nothing gonna happen to turkey, its economy is already collapsed. Turkey being weak in middle east wont do any good to eu or usa. That would give russia, iran more space in the region. Sorry to ruin ur wet dreams but not gonna happen, plus turkeys arm industry recently having lots of deals with eu countries.

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cody422 t1_j6ii7kl wrote

I don't think it's anyone's wet dream for a weaker Turkey. Unfortunately, the current leader is an absolute shit eater that would see sowing as much discord while looking out for himself as much as possible.

That said, geopolitics are always changing. The middle east isn't as important as it used to be with a focus on renewable energy. Other than Europe, Western intervention into wars will become far more rare and limited in scope since the many past examples end up being at best pointless and at worst a clusterfuck shit show. Turkey may end up a vestigial ally, whose purpose and function may be defunct.

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Sad-Internet-9363 t1_j6jh04h wrote

Maybe yes, but i dont think its highly possible when theres people who wants to imigrate europe trough turkey. Eu still pays billions to turkey to keep them there.

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cody422 t1_j6jij02 wrote

That is true, the migrant numbers are still high, but I suspect that if Turkey's actions end up costing Europe more money than they're willing to spend on the migration problem, they won't hesitate to stop the payments. A lot of negative sentiment has already formed since the start of the migration crisis towards the migrants, people will be looking for excuses to close their borders absolutely.

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puggiepuggie t1_j6h8dtc wrote

Erdogan: Turkey may allow Sweden or it may block Sweden.

You don't have to read any articles on Sweden's membership untill something definitive actually happens. Saved you some time.

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Rear-gunner t1_j6gojab wrote

In relations with Turkey and Russia, Russia now gives money.

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macross1984 t1_j6gv5yy wrote

Enough with Erdogan playing politics at the expense of NATO. For playing joker on a matter important to security of organization for its own political gain Turkey need to be put on notice that this time it went too far and there will be repercussion once war in Ukraine is brought to conclusion.

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Revolutionary-Tie126 t1_j6je809 wrote

Unfortunately no mechanism exists in NATO to put Turkey “on notice” for the bullshit it’s pulling

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DinoPhartz t1_j6gtws3 wrote

Amazing how worked up people get over the burning of fairy tale books.

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notyourvader t1_j6hko17 wrote

Turkey is just doing Russia a solid. All the rest is just window dressing. Sowing discord between NATO allies is basic Russian playbook and Erdogan is on good terms with Putin. Denying Sweden entry into NATO is good news for Russia and Erdogan can use it to look strong in his own country. Simple quid pro quo disguised as a dispute. Just look how quickly turkey switched from "Kurdish terrorist harboring" to "holy book burning". When that narrative has run its course they'll think of something else. Because the end goal is not to get what Erdogan wants, the goal is to deny Sweden what they want. That will be the only constant in this story.

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Mindless-Beginning-2 t1_j6je3to wrote

Except he really hasn’t sown any discord between NATO allies. He just distanced Turkey from the rest of the alliance.

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HotOuse t1_j6gr6g5 wrote

He was like; I don’t know if we ot’to man?

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aarkwilde t1_j6godfu wrote

Can Turkey be kicked out of NATO?

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slckening t1_j6gqllg wrote

Unlikely given Turkey's geographic position and its regional influence in the Middle East which plays to the advantage of the US in maintaining its soft power in the region.

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augustm t1_j6gungl wrote

Yes, this. Also sets bad precedent.

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Temporala t1_j6gr09d wrote

Nope.

Unless they do something ultra-dumb like attack Greece, which is another NATO member.

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redditfoundedbyliars t1_j6gy7r6 wrote

They've already threatened Greece. That should be more than enough reason once Turkey stops being considered a useful military asset to place foreign bases in and travel military equipment through.

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Patient-Lifeguard363 t1_j6gte1a wrote

NATO has no such policy, especially with a nation that has the most active battle experience army for quick deployment in case of war.

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Voidcroft t1_j6h84j3 wrote

>especially with a nation that has the most active battle experience army for quick deployment in case of war

The US?

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washiXD t1_j6gw6md wrote

Are there any penalties for countries which hold back in case of Article 5 triggering (let's hope we will never get there)? For example Finnland joines Nato and will be attacked by Russia and Turkey says "lolnope".

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Patient-Lifeguard363 t1_j6gwm2g wrote

You mean Hungary will say lolnope, yes there are penalties plus will probably will get no arm shipment from NATO countries in respond

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Patient-Lifeguard363 t1_j6gwu0y wrote

Plus politically they will also receive many penalties like removing NATO bases in your countries or removing weapon storage also Factory that produces US or French-made weapons will get shut down also licensing weapon manufacturing will get suspended there are many penalties.

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Indistinctness t1_j6hg525 wrote

Turkey has one of the largest and most experienced militaries in Europe, along with a booming domestic military arms sector. They’re also geopolitical rivals with Russia and in the best position to block their expanse via the Black Sea. They are invaluable to have on our side. Yes Erdogen sucks ass, but Turkey provides more to the strength of NATO then most of the states in it.

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Beepersteen t1_j6guor5 wrote

At what point will NATO wake up and realize Turkey is not a trustworthy ally?

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swizzcheez t1_j6gwciw wrote

Waking up won't cure it of having a bad leg sadly.

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PrimeTime0000 t1_j6gy948 wrote

I hope NATO will revise its current membership requirements.

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Sad-Internet-9363 t1_j6hnijz wrote

No other nato country wants to kick turkey out of nato actually, its easy to see that. Also other day john kirby said something like "Turkey, finland and sweden should fix this between them". Tbh i dont think usa cares about swe and finland that much. If russia loses it power there wouldnt be need usa bases in europe. Turkey will get what it wants from sweden and finland no matter what. And arms ambargo on turkey already lifted, more to come obviously. And people who says "oh lets remove turkey from nato" have no idea about real world. Even if there was a way to remove turkey, trust me no one would do it.

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LoonyFruit t1_j6gzahm wrote

We heard it last 1000+ times

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Waffleman75 t1_j6h6zg7 wrote

Jesus christ dude, Shit or get off the pot

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Gecko382 t1_j6hpvia wrote

Turkey has divided Europe so much it's insane.

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SWDrivingAcademy t1_j6hm67o wrote

Let's do this:

  1. Turkey accepts Finland's membership

  2. Sweden sells Gotland and Oland to Finland for 1 SEK with an option to buy them back any time they wish. Residents will become double citizens with tax exemptions.

  3. Visby Airport becomes a NATO airbase with Finnish F35 fighters (runway must be lengthened a bit)

  4. NATO submarines and battle ships patrol area.

  5. Hang Erdogan doll every Monday morning.

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OMGOODNESSWTF t1_j6ibvqn wrote

Erdogan bought mitary supplies and missiles from Russia. HE'S A DICTATOR and should have been expelled from NATO and UN as well as Russia. Any leader who basically declares themselves President for Life has GOT TO GO.

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supercyberlurker t1_j6ir5gg wrote

At this point, whatever way Turkey goes - they look like wishy washy flipfloppers here.

I get that they are trying for concessions but they've appear flaky and confused.

i.e. This is all making it look like Turkey just doesn't have their shit together.

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autotldr t1_j6gtzjb wrote

This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 77%. (I'm a bot)

> Sweden has a larger Kurdish diaspora than Finland, and its talks with Ankara over Nato membership have been heated.

> Turkey has called on Sweden to distance itself from the Kurdistan Workers' Party, which is regarded as a terrorist group by Turkey, the US and the EU. In response, Sweden approved a constitutional amendment which allows it to create tougher anti-terror laws demanded by Turkey.

> Turkey has heavily criticised Sweden over recent protests in Stockholm, including one by a Kurdish support group which hung an effigy of Mr Erdogan from a lamp-post.

Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 Turkey^#2 Erdogan^#3 Finland^#4 join^#5

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SharticusMaximus t1_j6ipebg wrote

What happens if NATO countries attack each other? How does Article 5 work then? Asking for a friend.

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Novuake t1_j6ja7jn wrote

Aggressor would be under fire and fault.

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Raptor22c t1_j6ipfpe wrote

Jesus Christ, literally just yesterday they were saying that they were considering allowing Sweden to join along with Finland. It’s like they flip back and forth every day.

The most apt description that I saw in the comments of another thread was “It wouldn’t be Türkiye without the schizophrenic politics.”

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[deleted] t1_j6gugdn wrote

[deleted]

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doc_daneeka t1_j6gw5cy wrote

I don't know the history there, but I'm willing to bet they had no trouble at all getting admitted once they decided on that course of action. The US would have been absolutely thrilled to get a NATO member sharing a long border with the USSR, and as a bonus, one which controlled the Bosporus Straight.

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MinorSpider t1_j6jps1z wrote

And we are supposed to trust these people in a war…

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dragutreis t1_j6gze1z wrote

Sweden be like ; forcing turkey into a friendship while supporting domestic terrorism for decades

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Sad-Internet-9363 t1_j6hnppl wrote

Ahahah yeah and dont forget swedish people burning muslims holy book too! 🤠 What a respectful act by them!!!

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silvertorso t1_j6htmh4 wrote

Noone thinks its respectful to burn holy books in Sweden except one asshole. Saying that Swedish people as a whole likes to burn holy books is some seriously ignorant racism. We simply respect freedom of speech and will not change our laws to please a dictator.

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