Comments
KainX t1_iti8dqm wrote
This sound great, but they do not explain a whole lot in the article. Would you explain more about;
What are these protein substances that we would see in one of the fermenters? Is it a goopy film that is dried?
What are the microbes being fed / What input materials are being turned into protein?
How does carbon monoxide end up in protein?
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Black Soldier Fly production are great at turning organic matter into proteins and fats, but they can not handle a lot of fibrous plant matter, but they would probably love these fermented leftovers.
mutherhrg OP t1_itiagjs wrote
>What input materials are being turned into protein?
>Calysseo is a joint venture between global animal feed additives supplier Adisseo and protein innovator Calysta, which uses natural gas (methane) to grow a naturally occurring bacteria, producing a safe SCP.
So methane it is.
>How does carbon monoxide end up in protein?
Complex chemical reactions being used by the bacteria transforming the substance into protein. Basically, a large bioreactor.
>What are the microbes being fed. What are these protein substances that we would see in one of the fermenters? Is it a goopy film that is dried?
Hard to say, there's a dozen different types of this processes using different microbes, different feedstock , some of it is being trade secrets, you need to actually go inside the factory to know the details. The final product is basically pellets, but there's no telling what by-products are produced, or the steps taken to process it into the pellet form. It just opened after all and this kinds of industrial protein factories aren't very common. Maybe in 10 years when there's thousands of this factories across the world, we'll know more about it.
TerpenesByMS t1_itjsn9z wrote
That's wild, input carbon for industrial food chain coming from petrochem. We definitely live in the future.
mutherhrg OP t1_itju3w2 wrote
There's also dozens other versions that use combinations of carbon monoxide, hydrogen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide etc etc so there's lots of potential there
Green__lightning t1_itmiysh wrote
They can make drinkable alcohol from oil too, but they won't let them sell it, at least here.
Lone-Pine t1_itk76w2 wrote
> safe SCP
I don't feel safe...
bluenosesutherland t1_itk84y6 wrote
I have visions of Soylent Green.
aPicOfTheWorld t1_itme602 wrote
I work in a factory like this, not in China, neither do we make fish supplements.
U won't see anything In the fermenter but brown water that smells like shit, don't forget, this is basically just biomass.
ThrowAwayGenomics t1_itimyti wrote
It’s methane fermentation, so methane is the only carbon/energy source. Depending on processing, you end up with something similar to brewers yeast you find at some grocery stores or a more purified protein powder. For animal feed it would likely be the former. Inputs are methane, salts, water and electricity to the run the bioreactors. I assume there’s some amount of pure oxygen or nitrogen supplementation to reach the most efficient ratios.
glaive1976 t1_itjw9d0 wrote
How about, can they engineer the foods nutrition profile to give farm fish the same nutrients and flavor?
Redqueenhypo t1_itjxsob wrote
I mean farmed salmon is still absolutely delicious
glaive1976 t1_itjy7k2 wrote
Agree to disagree?
Redqueenhypo t1_itk16b4 wrote
Actually let me rephrase, farmed salmon sushi is S tier because it’s as tender as toro at a fraction of the price. But when made any other way it’s just too greasy
Cantwaittobevegan t1_itjzmuc wrote
I also think farmed salmon tastes fine. However maybe I never had a proper wild one, I’ve had wild ones but maybe they were from polluted waters
FilthyCommieAccount t1_itnpt6g wrote
What's weird is I WAY prefer farmed salmon over wild caught.
glaive1976 t1_itpsvi0 wrote
I can believe it, personally the farmed has always been a bit salmon light if you will, so too me the flavor is milder. I fancy the flavor so me it's not as enjoyable, however you may find it more pleasing when it is less pronounced.
I kind of wonder if the down voters are mistaking my preference for being against farming at all. Just in case, I am pro responsible farming. I actually like the idea of this feed as it sounds like major improvement to sustainability.
Pickle121201 t1_itkrrc5 wrote
Fish overfarmed to feed fish
Seen_Unseen t1_itjempy wrote
That's great news considering how seafood takes up 40% of their total protein consumption. To make matters "worse", they are still consuming barely half of what Americans consume protein wise so they still have a long way to catch up which they want with an increased personal wealth.
IMSOGIRL t1_itjq2xf wrote
I don't think that's bad news because I think half of the median American protein consumption is about right, considering the penchant for overeating a lot of Americans have. Keep in mind:
42% of Americans are obese.
31% of Americans are not obese but are overweight.
https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity
So nearly 3 out of 4 Americans are eating too much.
And no, out of those 31%, the percentage of those who are bodybuilders is very tiny. Unless you're literally a bodybuilder with sculpted muscles and try to keep fat as low as possible, if your BMI is too high, you're almost certainly overweight.
Admiral_Narcissus t1_itk3ten wrote
I'm pretty sure ther stat used is always obesity rather than overweight+.. because it sounds so much worse to say 73% of the population is thicc.
Tycoon004 t1_itjwezm wrote
There's also that in general, most people vastly over-portion their proteins. If you're talking nutritionally, anything more than a 5oz(~40g protein) steak equivalent portion of a protein is getting mostly wasted. Yet most people probably easily double that for dinner. Do you often have gas, with absolutely raunchy farts? You've got the protein farts, a side effect of protein wasting.
AnusCleavage t1_itk46mp wrote
Is this based on the idea that protein synthesis maxes out at around 30-40 grams of protein per meal? Because there’s a few new studies starting to pop up due to the rise in popularity of the OMAD diet and intermittent fasting. Not asking to be a dick just genuinely curious if I’ve missed anything and if there’s anything new worth reading on this topic.
ChaosRevealed t1_itk6qin wrote
Humans can digest 100g or more protein a day. I (155lb) regularly ate that much to recover from training.
Tycoon004 t1_itlq1dz wrote
Yes, per day. I'm talking within a meal window (1.5-2hrs). There's a reason most bodybuilders with huge macros eat like 6 times a day.
Admiral_Narcissus t1_itk3owe wrote
Should I be concerned about how you know so much about what comes out of my anus.
ManyIdeasNoProgress t1_itkhprg wrote
No. Move along now citizen.
Hobomanchild t1_itkbzoc wrote
Assuming everybody eats the same ratio of macros, sure. Most teletubbies I know are on the pasta, soda, and snack cake diet.
ThrowAwayGenomics t1_itim4e0 wrote
It uses only methane as the carbon source, not food or agricultural byproducts. This process has a lot of potential if the efficiency is high enough and they could potentially expand production to other valuable organic compounds.
ThePhysicsOfBaseball t1_itjk6lx wrote
Something tells me they aren't recovering methane from landfills or other renewable sources...
mutherhrg OP t1_itjuefl wrote
There's also dozens other versions that use combinations of carbon monoxide, hydrogen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide etc etc so there's lots of potential there. Eventually, you could have enough renewables that you're pulling methane out of the air, made from carbon dioxide of the of the air instead of digging it out of the ground.
ThePhysicsOfBaseball t1_itl3sde wrote
>Eventually, you could have enough renewables that you're pulling methane out of the air, made from carbon dioxide of the of the air instead of digging it out of the ground.
No way that'll ever be as profitable as just using nat gas pulled from the ground. So unless that's paired with a massive carbon tax to make nat gas financially infeasible, you'll forgive me if I'm skeptical.
ChaosRevealed t1_itk6kxg wrote
Better use the methane (and convert into an extremely useful agricultural product) than burn it or worse, let it escape into the atmosphere.
ThePhysicsOfBaseball t1_itl2rk9 wrote
This isn't an either/or situation. If this catches on we'll just do both.
As a result, the problem is this creates a new demand source that will support and/or drive up prices for methane, encouraging further exploitation both of existing gas wells, reactivation of currently dormant wells, as well as exploration for new gas, right when we should be doing everything we can to reduce our use of petrochemicals.
We're already very good at turning oil into food through the production of ammonia. I'm really not excited by the prospect of finding new reasons to pull sequestered carbon out of the ground, and particularly nat gas given we're incapable of doing so without it leaking (and, between the two options, we are far better off burning methane than releasing it into the atmosphere).
johnblairdota t1_itk7k3s wrote
I know of a ex open cut mine turned landfill utilising the methane to regulate the temp for fish farming. Woodlawn near Canberra Australia. does that count?
Surur t1_itkwtrj wrote
You could potentially make methane from atmospheric CO2.
Mechasteel t1_itiuvqg wrote
>Fermentation is a process that uses microbes, to break down ... carbon monoxide or methane to be used to produce complex food like protein.
>it needs no plant or animal matter
Looks like now we can turn fossil fuels into food. This will probably be useful for an offworld colony.
greenrushcda t1_itjkoda wrote
There's a company in Canada, I think called Pond Biotech, that channels emissions from thermal power plants and cement plants into giant water tanks to grow algae. There are LED lights in the tanks. Algae can be used to make biofuel or animal feed.
Redqueenhypo t1_itjy5wm wrote
And oxygen! Algae produces that too, as a green plant!
[deleted] t1_itjpz8f wrote
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Green__lightning t1_itmjabe wrote
Well, fossil fuels wouldn't, but methane, yes as it can come from other sources. Titan has lakes of the stuff.
naossoan t1_itjap2r wrote
Why don't they just make stuff like this to feed humans instead of animals/fish and somehow make it palatable?
Growing something to feed to something else when we could just eat the first thing makes no sense to me....
KriosXVII t1_itje49d wrote
It's complicated, but the answer is mostly social acceptability. We've had the technology to synthetize edible fats from hydrocarbons since the 1940s. We're not doing it because we currently don't need to, and people prefer eating plant and animal based fats. I've seen a recent scientific article theorizing that we could make a factory for a few billion dollars that could make enough edible fat for all human beings in an apocalypse scenario. https://www.coloradohistoricnewspapers.org/?a=d&d=EVE19460906-01.2.29
https://www.sciencehistory.org/distillations/brave-new-butter
mule_roany_mare t1_itk784u wrote
I want to subscribe to your newsletter.
Where do you find apocalyptic synth butter studies?
cybercuzco t1_itx9gz0 wrote
It would not be difficult mein Fuhrer! Nuclear reactors could, heh... I'm sorry. Mr. President. Nuclear reactors could provide power almost indefinitely. Greenhouses could maintain plantlife. Animals could be bred and slaughtered. A quick survey would have to be made of all the available mine sites in the country. But I would guess... that ah, dwelling space for several hundred thousands of our people could easily be provided." "Well I... I would hate to have to decide who stays up and who goes down." "Well, that would not be necessary Mr. President. It could easily be accomplished with a computer. And a computer could be set and programmed to accept factors from youth, health, sexual fertility, intelligence, and a cross section of necessary skills. Of course it would be absolutely vital that our top government and military men be included to foster and impart the required principles of leadership and tradition. Naturally, they would breed prodigiously, eh? There would bemuch time, and little to do. But ah with the proper breeding techniques and a ratio of say, ten females to each male, I would guess that they could then work their way back to the present gross national product within say, twenty years."
Redqueenhypo t1_itjy458 wrote
Because humans don’t just ingest raw nutrients into their open mouths like robots. I could replace my grandma’s chicken soup with a scoop of protein powder, two tablespoons of olive oil, and a glass of salty water and get the same nutrients but I won’t do that bc that would be a disgusting and depressing meal. Also I don’t want to be the dipshit telling poor people to eat literal bacteria instead of meat. We’re not supposed to propose starvation rations even worse than crickets.
naossoan t1_itjzujw wrote
I didn't mean it like eating this in it's literal cultured form... But like...IN something.
Also, I'm probably not the best person to discuss it because I do treat food as "something necessary for me to survive" and don't really care in which form that nutrition comes in as long as it doesn't taste like shit. If I could eat Matrix Slop every meal of every day and be in perfect dietary health, I would. Bonus points if I could change the flavour but would be perfectly fine with the "tasty wheat" default flavour described in the film 😂
I consumed nothing but Soylent for over a year straight, soooooo.... Yeah. I don't give a single fuck about food. It's basically something I have to consume in order to continue living. At least that's how I see it.
mutherhrg OP t1_itjupjn wrote
Not many people want to eat raw protein. Doesn't taste good, it's doesn't have the raw taste, texture and "feel" of actual meat. There's probably a major ick factor there too. Might be useful for mixing raw protein into stuff like flour, protein bars or protein powder one day maybe.
[deleted] t1_itjix6t wrote
We are. Companies with alternative meat like beyond meat and impossible foods are actually producing soy protein hemoglobin through yeast in giant fermentors. It is added to make alternative meat more.. “real”. We are getting a lot better at making good tasting things this way, it will just take a while and a lot of investment.
Economics always get in the way. No one wants to pay $10 /lb for Chumbucket patty when they can pay $3/lb for the krabby patty. This means it takes much longer for chum bucket to scale and improve its product.
naossoan t1_itjsk0e wrote
Right, yeah. I've had beyond meat at A&W before. Canadian fast food chain. I actually like it a lot more than their real burgers, except for I get a weird chemically taste from subsequent burps which are very unpleasant. Quite odd.
IMSOGIRL t1_itjqg60 wrote
They do, it's called tofu. But not everyone likes to eat tofu only, so fish farms exist.
It's why corn and soybeans are is the most plentiful crops in the US but people in the US still eat meat that is fed off the corn and soy.
valkrycp t1_itk7s9d wrote
That's why he said palatable.
I'm in the same boat. I suck at eating veggies from a taste and texture perspective, so I resort to meat. Would love to swap but tofu and alternative products right now just taste off to me so far. I have cut down on a lot of dairy though, using almond milk and coconut milk and creams for just about everything.
ingeba t1_itko3vy wrote
Have you tried fried, marinated tempeh?
BluestreakBTHR t1_itktgdy wrote
When I went vegetarian for a few years, I tried to like tempeh. The texture was… not pleasant. I liked Seitan, but without witchcraft it typically tasted like flavored bread.
If there are some good protein alternatives, I’m all ears. Challenge rating: no tree nuts
ingeba t1_itl13qd wrote
Chickpeas? As lone source or with broad beans as falafel?
BTW: I'm totally on your side wrt tofu
BluestreakBTHR t1_itlap3y wrote
Oh yeah. I grew up on chickpeas, so they’re a staple in my pantry.
I like tofu, if it’s prepared properly and is a vehicle to deliver flavor. Tempeh just … never did it for me. It always tastes like packing material.
ESGActivist t1_itk6q9e wrote
Could humans not just eat the protein rather than putting it through a middle man?
kohminrui t1_itla5k0 wrote
People quite like eating fish. Most dont like eating some fermented gloop made from the byproduct of bacteria digesting methane.
bluenosesutherland t1_itk8991 wrote
Soylent Green?
[deleted] t1_itknb9k wrote
A middle man? You mean FOOD!? Protein powder and vitamins won’t provide the roughage and water you need to function.
ESGActivist t1_itkpa33 wrote
You can get those without having to eat the fish.
dathingindanorf t1_itixhyf wrote
Does this produce protein with a balanced Amino Acid profile?
CauseSigns t1_itkyr9o wrote
Maybe, maybe not, but it can be made to do so
dathingindanorf t1_itlrybe wrote
I ask because it's much easier to make Alanine than Tyrosine, Tryptophan, branch chain AAs. Humans will develop nutrional deficiencies if the protein doesn't cover all the essential ones.
jadedsometimes t1_itlsadi wrote
I realize. I'm suggesting that even if these methods do not include enzymes that can synthesize the essential AAs, there are bacterial enzymes which can do this, and those could be included in the bioreactor
bjanas t1_itiyq0i wrote
I'll be honest, knowing nothing about this industry, I would have guess higher than 20,000 tons of production for the largest facility in the world.
noxx1234567 t1_itjg6ck wrote
It's a pilot project , they will need to improve it over and over until it is financially viable to produce them enmasse
Meshd t1_itkhqcy wrote
We just need to solve mass desalination and I can rest easy I won't (likely) die in the water wars/hunger games. These sort of stories give me hope.
FuturologyBot t1_itiao1e wrote
The following submission statement was provided by /u/mutherhrg:
Fermentation is a process that uses microbes, to break down compounds to create products like protein or alcohol. This allows for basic raw ingredients such as glucose, starch, carbon monoxide or methane to be used to produce complex food like protein.
Traditional fish food for farmed fish is largely comprised of wild fish or soy. This leads to overfishing and massive amounts of land use for the growing of soy. By using industrial scale fermentation, you can vastly reduce the land and water needed to produce fish food. This technology could also be used to feed other kind of livestock as well.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/ybs76j/worlds_largest_protein_factory_uses_fermentation/iti67g4/
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ThisistheInfiniteIs t1_itjamm9 wrote
Also FeedKind? That sounds way creepier than Soylent Green.
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daynomate t1_itk753w wrote
Incredible to realise they could soon be just growing fish cell meat.
[deleted] t1_itk8qbn wrote
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Bob6oblin t1_itkauze wrote
So protein hey… gotta have a good name. Hmm replaces plant protein so colour it green. The microbes are almost on lent from soy too… hmm… hard one this… Call it soylent green! Perfect!
[deleted] t1_itkd2kv wrote
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LeagueOk4624 t1_itnhow3 wrote
I can tell you as a seafood lover from Louisiana, fish fed with pellets, farmed raised just don’t have the same flavor as wild caught, and aren’t as healthy. Farmed raised Salmon for example aren’t healthy, since they have a higher level of omega 6, bad for the heart. Seafood lovers can taste the pellet.
kernelrider t1_iu09t19 wrote
It ain't gonna matter when no one (apart from the ultra rich) remember what the stuff without the pellet tastes like. Sad, but we're heading in that direction.
[deleted] t1_itkeaje wrote
Trying to do some mental gymnastics...
Simply from an energy transfer in the ecosystem point of view, is this entire production chain (microbe fuel > factory > fish feed > fish farm > human) completely daft?!
mutherhrg OP t1_itkggng wrote
Maybe one day we can eat this protein directly. But the issue is the taste and "ick" factor. We can barely get people to eat a vegan diet, or insects, let alone raw protein sludge. This kind of protein does have the potential to be mixed in other food as supplements, like with flour, protein powder or protein bars.
WaitformeBumblebee t1_itkj1de wrote
> let alone raw protein sludge
McDonald's enters the chat serving pink slimme
Green__lightning t1_itmjp4d wrote
Well, is the objective to feed people, or to feed people high quality fish? Food isn't a fungible commodity, and the fact people simply like meat more is enough to justify the costs, both to the people buying it, and the people making it.
cazbot t1_itjs2y5 wrote
This tech converts fossil-fuel to fish food. A super unsustainable, bad way to make feed. The USA did this too like 40 years ago and the yeast Pichia pastoris entered the world. We left that technology in the commercial junkyard of bad tech 30 years ago.
TheGoodFight2015 t1_itk823i wrote
Why does it “convert fossil fuel to fish food?” What am I missing in your analysis?
cazbot t1_itkv0tq wrote
It is what U-loop reactors are for - methane fermentation. Methane is natural gas, aka a fossil fuel.
Here’s an example of a commercially popular u-loop bioreactor.
https://www.unibio.dk/technology/u-loop-fermentor/
My other source is 25 years in the biomanufacturing industry.
BluestreakBTHR t1_itkswjt wrote
They didn’t RTFA.
Trav3lingman t1_itl04ie wrote
It's the PRC so someone is going to need to check what level of melamine it's cut with. And determine what level is toxic to fish.
CelestineCrystal t1_itivjuv wrote
there is no reason to eat animals. check out the dominion documentary if you have any doubt on that.
SatanLifeProTips t1_itjovzd wrote
They are a delicious source of protein? That is A reason.
[deleted] t1_itjaewf wrote
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ArielRR t1_itjs606 wrote
Fish have no souls
BluestreakBTHR t1_itktk5i wrote
Neither do humans. What’s your point?
ThisistheInfiniteIs t1_itja3wn wrote
Food made from fermented methane is so dystopia.
The petrochemical companies must be pleased with themselves.
HierarchofSealand t1_itjawu3 wrote
Methane is available through human and animal waste products.
ThisistheInfiniteIs t1_itjbusv wrote
While that sounds nice, the overwhelming majority of natural gas production is petrochemical well operations, here in the US about 2/3 is produced by fracking.
SatanLifeProTips t1_itjpai1 wrote
So? Pumping it out of the ground isn’t harmful. Setting it on fire IS harmful.
We also recover it from our garbage dumps. Methane is in a lot of places. You can make a closed loop from a city composting collection project. Many cities do this and burn the methane in generators as that is the better alternative but it releases co2. Make fish food instead.
Valennnnnnnnnnnnnnnn t1_itk1v7d wrote
Pumping it out of the ground is harmful. It contains fossile carbon that should not end up in the atmosphere but it does even when you first feed it to fish and the fish to humans. In the end, it is breathed out and the carbon is in the atmosphere. No difference to being burned.
ThisistheInfiniteIs t1_itl77ey wrote
It is very harmful, just google fracking.
Yes, we can recover it from dumps, but the overwhelming majority of it comes from harmful wells.
mutherhrg OP t1_itjuusc wrote
There's also dozens other versions that use combinations of carbon monoxide, hydrogen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide etc etc so there's lots of potential there. Eventually, you could have enough renewables that you're pulling methane out of the air, made from carbon dioxide of the of the air instead of digging it out of the ground.
Whatever is it, it's better than feeding farmed fish with 3-4 times their weight in wild fish
ThisistheInfiniteIs t1_itl7xvc wrote
Sure, there perhaps may be some responsible ways to do this in the future, but the current reality is that methane pretty much all comes from fracking and drilling and petrochemical wells, which are incredibly destructive and harmful to the environment.
mutherhrg OP t1_iti67g4 wrote
Fermentation is a process that uses microbes, to break down compounds to create products like protein or alcohol. This allows for basic raw ingredients such as glucose, starch, carbon monoxide or methane to be used to produce complex food like protein.
Traditional fish food for farmed fish is largely comprised of wild fish or soy. This leads to overfishing and massive amounts of land use for the growing of soy. By using industrial scale fermentation, you can vastly reduce the land and water needed to produce fish food. This technology could also be used to feed other kind of livestock as well.