Comments

You must log in or register to comment.

Showerthoughts_Mod t1_je157qa wrote

This is a friendly reminder to read our rules.

Remember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not "thoughts had in the shower!"

(For an explanation of what a "showerthought" is, please read this page.)

Rule-breaking posts may result in bans.

1

LovelyLeaf4 t1_je16fgf wrote

Exaclty. We're just expected to be robots and slaves to this sick head society

0

KGhaleon t1_je17gxm wrote

It's not exploitation when I chose to do the work myself, which rewards me with a lot of money to spend on whatever I want. Delicious food, travel, hobbies, etc.

Life is a series of choices.

You could decide to never work again in your life, and those companies will find plenty of other people to fill those roles. They don't need you.

23

Vic_Hedges t1_je19k4n wrote

Keeping you alive takes labor. Either your own or someone elses.

Why exactly would you think you are owed other people working to keep you alive?

17

KHUSTOM OP t1_je1a5gq wrote

Replying to Vic_Hedges (#2,423,302)

I work a labour intensive job & I do provide energy for people. I'm saying that most jobs created are simply in place to service the fact that you have to repay a home that takes you your whole life. There's still a lot of jobs that don't service the wider community

−1

hawaii_funk t1_je1anr2 wrote

Replying to Vic_Hedges (#2,423,302)

>Why exactly would you think you are owed other people working to keep you alive?

Ask that question to the CEOs, business owners, landlords, etc. that make exponentially more money than the average worker w/ only a fraction of that labor.

3

Vic_Hedges t1_je1b3x9 wrote

Replying to KHUSTOM (#2,423,393)

And that's the way it should be. A fairer distribution of the value of labor is something that absolutely should be implemented.

But the reality is that working till you can't work anymore is the way life works. It's not an evil plot by nefarious masterminds. If you dropped out of society, you'd never be able to retire.

2

Kazuma97 t1_je1bca0 wrote

That's the price we have to pay to live in modern world community. If you don't want to, you gotta live on an island or somewhere remote, plant your own food, no electricty, no clean water etc.

0

MisterPublic t1_je1blsp wrote

The reason you were born is your parents fucked and you weren't aborted

152

Apprehensive_Fuel873 t1_je1bszz wrote

Replying to Vic_Hedges (#2,423,302)

>Why exactly would you think you are owed other people working to keep you alive?

Well obviously because it wasn't my decision to have a life in the first place. How is it fair to have existence foisted upon you by your parents, but they have no responsibility for the life they create?

−5

Apprehensive_Fuel873 t1_je1c37q wrote

That's capitalism baby, the people stating this as some immutable fact of life don't understand history or economics and you shouldn't take them seriously.

​

We now live in a post scarcity society, we have enough for everyone, but some people aren't happy with enough and those people hold a disproportionate amount of power so we're stuck doing it their way.

37

Foreign_Feedback_870 t1_je1c9z5 wrote

That's a pretty cynical view. While capitalism does involve production and economic activity, that's not the sole 'reason' any individual is born or lives their life. People find purpose and meaning in family, relationships, creativity, and other areas—not just productivity or exploitation. And the notion that 'freedom' is only granted once you're not economically useful is a bleak way to think about human rights and the ability to pursue whatever gives life meaning, regardless of 'productive' potential. There's more to existence than just economic gains or losses.

4

ToxicFactory t1_je1chob wrote

If this is an issue for you, nobody stops you to go live a free life in the woods. Outside of society, you would have to survive, hunt and take care of yourself.

Most people don't because they lack the knowledge and the will power.

You can if you choose to.

5

-ComputerCat- t1_je1cy25 wrote

Replying to ToxicFactory (#2,423,786)

Except for those who don't have the money to travel to a place where that's possible... Aside from that most land is owned already and people usually don't take kindly to strangers living on their property

1

CalvinSays t1_je1dk04 wrote

The reason I was born is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Working is one avenue of doing that but there are others.

−2

thewid10 t1_je1dk9g wrote

Nah. The reason you were born was an evolutionary miracle in terms of the universe that we currently understand. You can do what you will with that gift, but productivity can be measured in many ways and you can always stand up to exploitation if you have the guts.

15

hudsoncress t1_je1dslq wrote

a statistically significant people don't even live that long.

1

Viendictive t1_je1dszh wrote

False premise, there is no reason you were born, nor is there a reason your parents exist. Your life and all life is meaningless. It is humanism that imparts human-centric meaning on the universe, which is kinda interesting considering we are the universe doing that… to/for ourselves…

55

Achlyse t1_je1e94n wrote

Replying to Apprehensive_Fuel873 (#2,423,720)

No matter what economic structure, OPs statement is generally true. If you don't produce in your prime years, you are a drain on a society. Communism or whatever else you're implying doesn't fix that unfortunately.

14

Josie_Kohola t1_je1f6oz wrote

Well to be fair we also generally have a pretty easy go of things for the first 18 years or so.

1

tweak0 t1_je1fk3y wrote

gen z discovering how good it feels to think a system was designed just to target you as a very special person

2

One-Plane7101 t1_je1g8ow wrote

If there was no society we would have an average life expectancy of about 30 years old, would not have access to education or healthcare, there would be no law or order…etc. Is this the “freedom” people really want?

2

GlubSki t1_je1gkfy wrote

Replying to hawaii_funk (#2,423,476)

Yeah! Stupid CEOs, Business Owners and landlords! They should all stop what they are doing and also do manual labor!

But wait - who is running the business then, who is taking the risk of the business failing, who is gonna renovate the house you want to rent. So many questions I would really be curious to hear the answers to.

−2

mainthrowawaydmtits t1_je1go6f wrote

Replying to Apprehensive_Fuel873 (#2,424,133)

Also, many socialist believe in being able to maximize free time for people. We're much more productive than even 30 years ago, but because the capitalists own the tools that increase productivity, we get paid the same but are expected more output instead of being able to produce the same output and work less for the same amount. The system will literally punish those who increase efficiency.

2

lifeintraining t1_je1gs4n wrote

My mom recently rediscovered religion and was saying a prayer for Thanksgiving dinner. She asked that my daughter be “A productive member of society”, and it really rubbed me the wrong way. I want her to find her own purpose even if it means living by in a forest.

6

jeffsang t1_je1gv7a wrote

Replying to Apprehensive_Fuel873 (#2,423,720)

We do not live in a post scarcity society. A significant amount of work by someone is still required to produce the goods and services that most people need to live. The amount of money and resources needed for everyone on earth to live a life of the median American would push our resources to the brink and create huge amounts of pollution and GHG.

Now, we could be doing a lot better at distributing very basic things like food and clean water to the poorest among us, but that doesn't mean we're in a post scarcity society. There's a whole lot of shit that most of us want.

18

iSvenPoland t1_je1hgxi wrote

Universe is much bigger than that, we are billion times smaller than water drop in the ocean

1

MarleyandtheWhalers t1_je1hwlo wrote

"What? People won't just feed me, clothe me and house me for no reason? I have to contribute to society to earn its benefits?"

Grow up. If benefitting from the labor of others is "exploitation," how many farmers have you exploited today?

−1

yodog5 t1_je1i8mj wrote

Replying to xlRadioActivelx (#2,423,912)

Just because society tells us that parents should be responsible for their children, that doesn't mean they are.

Orphans are just the tip of the iceberg of examples; abuse, neglect, financial hardship, divorce, drug addiction, etc can all cause children to be without that support system.

This of course feeds into adulthood, and as we all know is one of the primary reasons for metal instability and repeating the cycle.

Modern humans weren't made to operate in modern society. They were made to operate in the small hunter-gatherer groups and agricultural societies of the past several thousand years. Back then, if your parents were abusive, you still would have been surrounded by a tribe (support system) and would have likely stayed with that tribe your whole life. Nobody is meant to be "on [their] own". Humans are social creatures after all.

We all need support systems, some people more than others, but unfortunately if your family isn't there for you in modern society, it becomes extremely difficult to find that later in life. People will tell you to "toughen up" or "that's just the way life is", but I would argue that it shouldn't be that way, and that society is broken if people are meant to live without a support system as an adult.

Telling someone to kill themselves if they aren't happy is not only toxic, but extremely ignorant.

4

UniqueUsername82D t1_je1i9td wrote

Something tells me that the people who complain the most about having to work spend the least amount of their free time wisely.

Sorry you can't binge Netflix and Reddit 24/7, life's so so hard.

1

DowntownLizard t1_je1irol wrote

Go read some books. Your production is keeping you alive. The rest is just because you want to live in expensive houses and drive expensive cars etc. Money is just a division of labor so you dont have to know how to do everything but can still benifit from everything we know how to do

1

Oheligud t1_je1irzp wrote

Then go live on a deserted island. Or somewhere far in the wilderness.

1

thequirkyquark t1_je1itt6 wrote

Society doesn't function on magic, it takes maintenance. The good thing is, by the time you reach an age where you feel compelled to give back to society and do your part, you may be about the age where you need to start drawing benefits from a society that, in turn, owes you for your time and effort.

Or, you could move to a place where you don't have to contribute and just be self-sufficient. But then no one would owe you medicine or health care so hopefully you learned some good doctoring skills before you left.

See how ridiculous this all sounds? It's easy to be a cynic and talk about being exploited, and yes it does happen to many, but it is not the pretense for existence.

0

Vic_Hedges t1_je1jmn4 wrote

Replying to Apprehensive_Fuel873 (#2,423,675)

So take it up with your parents. Tell them how unfair it is that they gave birth to you and how much you hate and resent them. Throw your hissy fit about how horrible they are and how you wish you were dead. That should make you feel better.

But don't foist that shit on the rest of society.

5

LiamTheHuman t1_je1jypb wrote

Replying to Viendictive (#2,424,008)

This view is interesting for a second or two and then you realize that you can just exchange "reason" in the ultimate sense for "reason" in the personal sense and nothing really changes. There is no "Reason" for anything but there is reason for it. It's ultimately just semantics and not really a revelation.

4

pebblebrusher t1_je1k1l0 wrote

Replying to GlubSki (#2,424,510)

Taking a risk of what? Having to get a job and become a laborer themselves? If it’s not so bad being a worker, why is that a risk?

No one is saying to get rid of the structure of a companies, just to reassess our current wealth distribution and workers’ relationship to their labor, profits and the means of production.

Not sure what you mean about renovating the house. That work is done by manual laborers not CEOs?

−2

derycksan71 t1_je1k51v wrote

Replying to lifeintraining (#2,424,556)

A productive member of society from a parent usually just means being self sufficient and not depending on others for their care/well being. If living in a forest is what you want, cool, just better be ready to support that lifestyle.

3

char-le-magne t1_je1klfm wrote

Replying to Vic_Hedges (#2,423,302)

A lot of those people only have to keep working because of scheduled obsolescence that's slowly killing the planet. A lot of us could do a greater share of that life sustaining work and still have more free time if there wasn't so much busy work.

0

pyrotechniks t1_je1kpti wrote

Replying to lifeintraining (#2,424,556)

This breaks my heart. Why can't family just be supportive. Especially a grandparent, aren't they supposed to "spoil" their grandkids just a little bit? I hope your mom has a change of heart and deemphasizes that myth of hustle culture and limitless hard work.

−1

pebblebrusher t1_je1l6lg wrote

Replying to xlRadioActivelx (#2,424,304)

Wow that’s a bleak outlook man. We’re all in it together. I think the point they were making is that we are coerced into making decisions because we have basic needs for survival that aren’t readily available to us without engaging in our capitalist system. When we have enough food and housing to feed the hungry and house the homeless, yet that doesn’t happen, we need to question the system we function under.

2

DoktoroKiu t1_je1liku wrote

Replying to claysverycoolreddit (#2,424,444)

How so? The universe must also be guilty of coercing us to work for our survival, then, too.

There are many problems with capitalist society, but any functional society will involve some type of exchange of labor for goods and services needed to survive. Be it a paycheck from a wealthy capitalist business owner, or a contract you enter into with your community in an anarchist society, you will be "coerced" into being a useful part of society one way or another.

The only way you would never be compelled to work would be by the charity of others, or whenever we've managed to fully automate everything so that no human labor is required.

0

shadowscale1229 t1_je1m6c0 wrote

Replying to crazy_gurl1001 (#2,425,156)

being put here for a reason implies a higher power. humanity does not exist for any reason other than we evolved from other hominids and became smart enough to make fire, and then used fire to make better things.

so yeah, we don't exist for any reason. however, we make our own personal reason to exist.

mine is spite

3

crazy_gurl1001 t1_je1mmh4 wrote

Replying to shadowscale1229 (#2,425,549)

It absolutely does not indicate that there’s a higher power. I personally do not believe in that, but I do believe in the universe and everything happens for a reason. We were put here to live and love. I’m sorry you don’t see that, and also you saying we make our own reasons kinda dictates what you’re saying lol. We definitely are here for reasons, you just have to find yours:)

1

pebblebrusher t1_je1mn8s wrote

Replying to Vic_Hedges (#2,425,494)

I’m with you there. I am very grateful. I live an insanely privileged life, and because of my starting point as a white upper middle class man, it has been easier for me to work hard and succeed in a traditional capitalist sense. I am certain that I would have had huge hurdles to overcome if I had been born to poverty.

Your point makes sense in a true meritocracy, which does not exist in the US.

3

shadowscale1229 t1_je1nc3f wrote

Replying to crazy_gurl1001 (#2,425,628)

no, what we're getting at is the universe (and by extension Earth) doesn't give a shit that we exist. that's what we mean by no reason. if you really want a reason, chaos is the reason we exist. a series of events that lead to the creation of intelligent life on earth, just chaos.

god dammit now all i can think of is 40k and literally worshipping chaos lmao. blood for the blood gods and all that jazz

2

crazy_gurl1001 t1_je1nmwt wrote

Replying to shadowscale1229 (#2,425,757)

God, The universe does gaf about us crazy enough, I mean it made us didn’t it. You have a purpose wether u like it or not. And life is going exactly how it’s meant. I completely understand and respect your opinion but everything happens for a reason

0

xlRadioActivelx t1_je1ob96 wrote

Replying to yodog5 (#2,424,833)

I wasn’t actually telling them to kill themselves, the only point I was trying to make is the absurdity of complaining that you were born without your consent. If you’re really that upset you exist, well no one is stopping you from no longer existing.

And yeah the system is far from perfect, but saying parents are not responsible for their children at all is much further from the truth than saying they are.

0

Vic_Hedges t1_je1p7h2 wrote

Replying to pebblebrusher (#2,425,633)

I honestly think that a huge contributor to the political divide is purely driven by emotional jealousy and vindictiveness, not by anything logical.

I think upper income people would be far more willing to make economic sacrifices if they were framed as charitable acts towards those less fortunate, rather than impositions by the lazy and entitled.

Or at least, they'd have a tougher time justifying their unwillingness to do so. Demonizing the poor is how you justify mistreating them, and when the poor are screaming about how you are greedy, lazy and underserving of your wealth, it's not hard to understand why people are anxious to dismiss them.

−1

pebblebrusher t1_je1qkz8 wrote

Replying to Vic_Hedges (#2,426,050)

So just to make sure I’m hearing you right, it’s poor peoples fault for being angry at a system that leaves them in the dust? I agree with you that people would be more likely to make economic sacrifices to benefit others if things were framed that way. But who is framing things that way? It’s the mainstream media pushing narratives, the impoverished don’t have that power. And who owns the mainstream media? The wealthiest among us. We can blame them, not the poor who are often (justifiably) disenfranchised by a system that doesn’t serve them.

Most people just want to feed their families and have a roof over their head, and it really is that simple. These narratives of poor folks being lazy or entitled just aren’t accurate and don’t paint the whole picture.

3

Vic_Hedges t1_je1sgef wrote

Replying to pebblebrusher (#2,426,274)

My point is that of course they're not accurate, but neither are the "rich people are all lazy and greedy" narratives. People on both sides of the spectrum are demonizing the other side because it makes it easier to hate them.

Be angry all you like, but that's not going to fix anything, unless you're angry enough for a real revolution. And I don't think we're anywhere near that point yet.

0

yodog5 t1_je1xiet wrote

Replying to Apprehensive_Fuel873 (#2,423,675)

A fetus cannot have a choice at existence unfortunately, so it's a bit of an absurd argument.

However, there's definitely the expectation that parents care for their children, and I'm sorry if you didn't have that support. I don't know if you're just posing the argument or you're actually in this situation, but if you are, here's some advice that helped someone I know who was in this position.

While it can be difficult as an adult, I think it would be beneficial to find a support system, through clubs or whatever you enjoy. Even an online forum if you don't want to go out. Everyone needs some support!

Support helps with personal responsibility, so while it may be on you to pave the way of your existence, surrounding yourself with people that you can share your life with can help you bear that burdon.

Take as much money as you can and invest; not just for retirement, but also in yourself! Make sure there's something you do every day that brings you some sense of personal accomplishment or happiness. Pets can help a lot too!

And finally, talk to a doctor if you haven't. You don't even have to go to a psychiatrist these days for medication that can provide you with the tools you need to succeed and be happy! It's as simple as 10 questions on a form at your family doc. Once brains are damaged (physically or just wired wrong), it can be impossible to fix it on your own, since they directly control YOU. Look no further than glioblastoma patients being told to touch their nose, and instead reaching out into empty space and thinking they succeeded (video upon request). So don't be afraid to talk to your doc about it, there's no shame.

1

kunkworks t1_je228hs wrote

I've been searching for the meaning of life for so long, and now you've provided it for me. Thanks!

2

pebblebrusher t1_je2addy wrote

Replying to Vic_Hedges (#2,426,554)

Agreed that we’re not near a real revolution. But I don’t like the both sides narrative. One side is in a position of power to make change. It’s not an attitude of rich people being lazy or greedy or whatever. I have no issue with rich people in general. I just think it’s absolutely unjustifiable that the wealthiest 1% has more wealth than the bottom 50%, and we have people starving in the land of plenty. And one of those two sides has the power to make that change. And I’m not talking about like, well paid athletes, musicians, lawyers, whatever. I’m explicitly talking about capital owners and the top 1%

2

FelixBck t1_je2ashd wrote

Replying to UniqueUsername82D (#2,425,001)

Here’s the thing: Many don’t really understand the scope of wealth that some of those people have. You’re right, managers for example do bear a lot of responsibility, and I don’t think it’s totally wrong that some of them, managing huge companies, can earn well into the 6-digit territory annually. But above that, the returns of your wealth diminish pretty quickly. So a millionaire and a billionaire probably have a similar quality of life, yet the billionaire is A THOUSAND TIMES richer than the millionaire. There is no reason that a single human being should have that much wealth.

2

DoktoroKiu t1_je2dlgu wrote

Replying to claysverycoolreddit (#2,429,830)

I didn't say that (I butted into the conversation).

Do you not see death as a choice? What would be a better option? Force others to support you just because? Is it still coercion if instead of death you get provided the bare minimum to keep you alive? At what standard of living is it no longer coercion?

Even in an anarchist society you will have to come to some type of arrangement with society to meet your basic needs (unless you live on your own in the wilderness or something). The visions of anarchist society I've heard of would not let these "lost causes" die, but in reality I see this as a kindness, not some obligation.

0

EmeDemencial t1_je2mjfp wrote

Well, it actually is becoming that way, the system is getting more rigid and our freedom is getting more restricted as it is becoming more dependant on money.

Therefore, things like "family, creativity and such" are becoming more of a luxury than an available option for everyone. It's coming to a point (at least in US) where people just work to live paycheck to paycheck, to feed benefits to those in charge, creating that "freedom" to the top elite while the working class is stuck just working awful jobs with awful conditions and awful pays...

I do believe we're heading towards a society where we live just to work and keep the system going.

The funny thing is, the state needs to be fueled so they will ban abortions, try to increase birth rate by giving "help" to those families that have kids and... Soon we'll be wondering whether the world is trying to replicate Handmaid's Tale.

Enjoy the ride while you can, soon people will stop having kids to a huge decrease in life quality and suicides are gonna be more common than ever with an economic situation effed up.

2

GlubSki t1_je48wt6 wrote

Replying to pebblebrusher (#2,425,158)

Okay let's take a step back. The manual labor done on a house is done by manual labor workers - correct. Who is paying those manual labor workers, if the founders of said house renovation company were also manual labor workers instead of founders?

Building a company means investing your own money or going into big debt to start that company at thr risk of that company failing- I call that taking a risk. Founders are willing to take the risk to earn a return on it - which they should.

1

Apprehensive_Fuel873 t1_jeb5ypm wrote

Replying to mainthrowawaydmtits (#2,424,535)

Yup. There is little incentive for a proletarian in a capitalist system to actually maximise the value of their labour for the capitalist that owns the means of production to which they apply their labour. Their incentive is the same as the capitalist. To maximise their profits on the least amount of investment. It's just the proletarian's investment is their labour.

​

Capitalism literally incentivises lazy but crafty workers, just as it incentivises lazy but crafty investors. At least if you own the value of your own labour, there's an incentive to work harder, if you value material gain.

1

Apprehensive_Fuel873 t1_jec32gv wrote

Replying to xlRadioActivelx (#2,497,661)

Why are you basing your sense of morality on biology? Lots of animals involve violence in their reproductive process, are you saying violent reproduction is ok for humans just because it's "natural"/

​

Arsenic is also natural, does that make it good? Why do you make nature your metric for goodness?

0

xlRadioActivelx t1_jeccnrh wrote

Replying to Apprehensive_Fuel873 (#2,504,269)

Most people are happy existing. And most people can choose to not exist if they want.

But sure, get on your soapbox and tell the world it’s unfair to have children because you didn’t ask them if they wanted to exist. Good luck with that.

0

Apprehensive_Fuel873 t1_jeg3dsw wrote

Replying to xlRadioActivelx (#2,506,542)

>Most people are happy existing.

Why does that make it ok to force people into it with the alternative being suicide? Most people like bread, forcing someone to eat on pain of death is fucking evil.

Look, I get it, you're not able to think abstractly or beyond your immediate experiences, that's fine, it's ok to lack the brain power. But when you have that limitation, it's better to just shut the fuck up and not crop dust the world with your ignorance.

0

Apprehensive_Fuel873 t1_jeg3tg1 wrote

Replying to xlRadioActivelx (#2,506,426)

"I'm not going to justify them with a response... now here is my response." I suggest getting your own house in order before throwing out accusations.

​

And when did I say that society must function? If I don't think existing is inherently good, why do you assume I think society existing is inherently good? Frankly, you're just embarrassing yourself by showing just how profoundly myopic and ignorant you are. You cannot process these complex ideas. That's fine. I struggle with quantum physics. But that's why I don't talk about quantum physics. When you're an idiot, you should shut your idiot mouth, not get annoyed at others for pointing out your idiocy.

0

jack-of_most-trades t1_jeg4zuz wrote

Replying to Apprehensive_Fuel873 (#2,545,876)

Get help.

You’ve yet to offer even a hint of how you would have things work because you are complaining about things which are fundamental to the human condition and cannot be changed. You think you see things from a sage and complex perspective when really you’re whining about the facts of life that every well adjusted human has already accepted.

No one gives a singular fuck that you didn’t give consent to being born, no one wants to hear you complain about it either so stop wasting oxygen.

I sincerely hope you find a path to happiness but I’m not holding my breath, you are a miserable fuck who is content to wallow in self pity over that which cannot be changed.

1

pebblebrusher t1_jegawuz wrote

Replying to Apprehensive_Fuel873 (#2,496,318)

I mean, I agree with you, but it’s kinda meaningless to say we weren’t born with our consent. That’s true of every human ever, so like, what’s the point? I get where you were taking it and I agree with you on the topic, just kinda think there’s a better way to approach that argument

1