Submitted by ASoloTrip90000 t3_117pots in dataisbeautiful
Comments
icedrift t1_j9do3kd wrote
I think course requirements are probably a bigger factor. In New York you need 2-3 years of foreign language classes in order to graduate high school, and all of the state colleges require foreign language credits.
pook_a_dook t1_j9dp14f wrote
Agreed. When I was in school in California a foreign language was required from grades 2-10, but looking at this chart, I guess it wasn’t a state requirement?
eatinpunkinpie t1_j9f9vd4 wrote
This is why I doubt the sentiment this map is conveying, even if it has a legit data source. In Illinois you need 2 years of foreign language to graduate high school as well, but this map makes it look like no one takes it...
PredictorX1 t1_j9doakg wrote
I'm curious as to the retention of foreign language skills for graduating seniors in New York.
LakeCowPig t1_j9dzmec wrote
The answer is 0
endertricity t1_j9e15p8 wrote
I took 7 years of French in NYC public schools and speak it well enough to vacation alone in France and talk to family there who barely speak any English. It’s rare but it happens
LakeCowPig t1_j9e1bnd wrote
I concede. The answer is 1.
endertricity t1_j9fdyzf wrote
fair enough
bigthink t1_j9eyc35 wrote
du fromage
LivingGhost371 t1_j9f8w8l wrote
If it's like my experience taking four years of French in high school, no one, not the teachers, not the parents, and not the students, were under the delusion that we'd be sitting down in a French cafe having in-depth conversations with the locals, or even that we'd find it useful in general. You could pass the class and check if off on your college application if you could write down that "bathroom" = "la salle des bain" on a test with being nowhere actually fluent.
FoldyHole t1_j9fmj99 wrote
I learned more Spanish working construction in Texas than I did in 4 years of classes.
The_Noremac42 t1_j9ep1ek wrote
I live in Texas, and my high-school required two years of foreign language classes. It was a small school, so the only one offered was Spanish. I retained maybe ten words after that first summer, and the only reason I passed the second year was because of google translate.
icedrift t1_j9equiv wrote
Personally my comprehension is still decent and speaking is horrible. If you don't use it you lose it BUT after taking 7 years of Spanish classes I'm confident I could pick up a romance language pretty quickly if I had to.
[deleted] t1_j9fe3ep wrote
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Peelboy t1_j9d0v19 wrote
We have quite a few schools that are full immersion from 1st grade on. I feel like this is a snapshot from 2017 of those doing it at that moment.
w1n5t0nM1k3y t1_j9d2sld wrote
I'm pretty much of the opinion that you basically have to take immersion if you want a good grasp of a second language. Up here in Canada everyone takes French from kindergarten through grade 9, but a vast majority of English speakers don't have a good enough grasp of French to carry on a conversation. It's really only the students who opt to take French immersion that have a food grasp of the language.
moepsenstreusel t1_j9eci0x wrote
> I’m pretty much of the opinion that you basically have to take immersion if you want a good grasp of a second language.
Nah. But you do need to give a shit.
The difficulty in getting English-speakers to learn another language is that learning a language well is really hard, and they're all much less useful than English.
Threndsa t1_j9e9ni9 wrote
A very large one. In Clark county, which has over 2/3rds of Nevada's population, 2 years of a foreign language is required to graduate high school but your first chance to take one usually isn't until 8th grade.
So 100% of graduating students in Clark County will have taken a foreign language class, and assuming roughly equal overall population ratios with school age children Nevada would be at 70% minimum if it was based of at graduation. However since the first 8 years it isn't an option you drastically tank the numbers like you mentioned.
Rexdawg187 t1_j9d3tpx wrote
My SD school taught Lakota, German and Spanish so not surprised
deadfox69 t1_j9d9ntt wrote
that’s really cool that they taught Lakota though
Thelona05mustang t1_j9f26p1 wrote
Would Lakota count as a "foreign" language for this chart i wonder, it may be a "second" language but it's definitely not "foreign".
Horzzo t1_j9gmpzi wrote
I'd consider it a native language.
PaigePossum t1_j9hb87p wrote
Officially in Australia it's called LOTE (language other than English), but often colloquially refered to as foreign languages. Something similar may apply here
whatweshouldcallyou t1_j9f9qdp wrote
People not from the region don't realize that as long as you're ok with unpredictable weather and utterly brutal winters, the Dakotas are a great place to live.
jettison_m t1_j9fms0v wrote
The brutal winter part is why I moved out of MN.
AllPintsNorth t1_j9fvox0 wrote
Same.
Didn’t truly realize how terrible it was until I moved to a place that barely gets below freezing.
bigbluedoor t1_j9fpq7i wrote
less brutal every year tho
Kesshh t1_j9dajjk wrote
K-12 percentage? That's a useless number.
Younger kids are learning English to start. Those will mostly be 0%. Older kids, depending on the State, DoE might even have foreign language requirements. In those states, it will be 100% for that age bracket. Without segmenting with those circumstances in mind, these numbers are useless.
Alexis_J_M t1_j9dnn98 wrote
Language instruction is most effective if you start it really young. Some schools offer immersion starting from kindergarten.
5 year olds still have enough brain plasticity to end up fully bilingual.
If you wait until high school the magic learning window is fully closed.
Kesshh t1_j9dnypf wrote
While that is true biologically, in practice, kids will not learn when they are not ready, not in the right environment, not being taught correctly, not having the right teachers. Forcing everyone into a mold never worked and never will. That is THE biggest problem in our education system and education theory.
makingthematrix t1_j9e8wdl wrote
In EU countries, teaching English as the second language usually starts at 12 or earlier. It's required. The percentage is close to 100%.
moepsenstreusel t1_j9eg9js wrote
Yeah, but English is really fucking useful.
It's the world's second language. In a fair few countries, kids already speak English before they start school because of the TV shows in English.
Things often look very different when looking at any other foreign language.
makingthematrix t1_j9ejryn wrote
It seems to me that in the case of US, teaching Spanish to children should be just as important as teaching English in many European countries.
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makingthematrix t1_j9jnfsw wrote
I think this is the first time I read that I should learn English to speak to a customer.
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makingthematrix t1_j9u3qgj wrote
And you can't see any good reason why a person who already knows English should learn another language?
vtTownie t1_j9erj3n wrote
Worlds second language?
krautbaguette t1_j9eql0i wrote
I think for many schools it starts at first grade here in Germany bow, and there are kindergartens offering English too. By age 12 you typically pick a 2nd foreign language
PBFT t1_j9dpp50 wrote
It also comes with the cost of a decreased English vocabulary compared to monolingual kids of the same age. The gap closes by adulthood, but there’s an argument to be made that a lot of schools need to prioritize English when you consider how poorly their students perform in reading literacy.
DeTrotseTuinkabouter t1_j9emwhe wrote
Given that e.g. English classes start really young in some non-English speaking countries I would not call this useless.
And the numbers arenstill very low even when you include the fact that there's children included who are in younger classes than grade 7 who only learn one language.
Tail_Nom t1_j9enkvn wrote
It was full K-12 for me. Spanish required K-6. 7 you got intro to German, French, and a more structured Spanish course. Then 9-12, you were required to take Spanish, French, German, or Latin. The only year with an optional break was 8.
ACorania t1_j9dlx9x wrote
I was at first shocked at how low NM was... then I realized we are one of the highest for bilinguals overall. Don't need it in school if you are speaking multiple languages at home.
KatieCashew t1_j9dp363 wrote
I once read that children of immigrants tend to have a poorer grasp of both languages because they learn the reading and writing and grammar in school while speaking their native tongue at home but not learning the grammar and such as well.
I mentioned it to my friends who were the children of Mexican immigrants, and they both felt that it was pretty accurate. One said that she didn't feel fluent in English or Spanish. Spanish was her home language, but she couldn't read or write it well and wasn't good at the grammar because she didn't study it at school. She learned English at school but didn't speak it at home and didn't have as much practice at a young age.
My other friend also agreed but did feel fluent in both. She said her parents made her take after school Spanish lessons so she would learn to read and write it as well as the grammar. She also said her parents put her in other extracurriculars that made her practice her English as well. She felt like other 1st gen Americans that didn't have those experiences struggle with both languages.
johnnyGotHisTabla t1_j9dtnbz wrote
>I once read that children of immigrants tend to have a poorer grasp of both languages because they learn the reading and writing and grammar in school while speaking their native tongue at home but not learning the grammar and such as well.
Grandmama's generation was first generation, and they all spoke Italian...but Mama's generation didn't, because their parents would all speak Italian so the kids wouldn't understand them.
That the story I got, anyway.
bigthink t1_j9ezyhz wrote
My parents' generation immigrated to the U.S. and my older cousins were purposely kept from learning our native language (Vietnamese) out of fear that leaning it would hinder their ability to integrate into English-speaking society. From my own experience, in contrast to some of the anecdotes I've read here, it would have been impossible not to pick up native English fluency being born and raised here and attending public school. I'm grateful for every bit of Vietnamese fluency I still retain as much of it fades from my memory banks.
johnnyGotHisTabla t1_j9f15pg wrote
>it would have been impossible not to pick up native English fluency being born and raised here and attending public school
Exactly! Yes, I think it was the fear you mentioned that kept Mama's generation from being taught Italian. I'm going a long way back: Mama was born in '46, which was really not that long after the Immigration Acts of '21 and '24 which were aimed at keeping people like my family out of the country. If no dogs or Italians were allowed, maybe don't teach the kids Italian.
I took Spanish in 8th grade in Wyoming in the 80's and didn't learn a damned thing. I can't help but wonder if it was too late, that second languages need to be learned either young or by pure immersion.
I did end up with a fairly strange accent. I speak fluent hick but it's peppered with Brooklynite idioms and accents.
li7lex t1_j9entio wrote
As someone that was raised bilingual I can guarantee you that what you described is usually a self made problem.
Learning a language strictly in school while speaking your native language at home is only a detriment when children don't get to interact with others after school.
So unless they spend all of their time after school at home only interacting with people in their native language the exposure to both languages should be more than enough to get a child fluent in both languages by the time they finish school.
Being fluent in a language does not require you to know it's grammatical rules. Most native speakers just subconsciously know how to form proper sentences trough enough exposure to the language.
ChicagoJohn123 t1_j9fpjqk wrote
I'd love to see how 30 year olds feel about that.
I can imagine that you feel more awkward in school where you're literally doing grammar exercises. But I feel like most the people I know who grew up bilingual speak English extremely well (just like the people who played two varsity sports tended to be better at both than they would have been just playing one)
KatieCashew t1_j9g3k7j wrote
Both the people I mentioned were in their late 20s at the time.
For the one that didn't consider herself fluent in either language, I would have never guessed. In talking with her, (we knew each other a couple years before this conversation) I thought she was fluent in English. She certainly didn't seem to struggle with speaking or understanding to me. But she felt that she struggled with both languages.
kchro005 t1_j9daaqv wrote
Does Latin count? I'm going to say Latin counts if you reach Tom Hiddleston levels...
ASoloTrip90000 OP t1_j9czy19 wrote
Source: ACTFL Foreign Language Enrollment Survey (2017)
Tool: Mapchart.net
EDIT: I didn't calculate the %'s myself. They can be found on page 7 of the source.
whatweshouldcallyou t1_j9f9tfx wrote
Nice work. This is a good plot.
Alexis_J_M t1_j9dn7yq wrote
I spent two years in a school system that didn't even offer any foreign language instruction until 9th grade.
What a waste of learning potential.
jettison_m t1_j9fncba wrote
Same. In MN we were offered French, German and Spanish in 9th grade and required to take just two years. I remember nothing. I'm currently learning Norwegian on Duolingo instead.
slopmarket t1_j9dciz0 wrote
That’s actually really interesting that it become LESS prevalent with where you guys share a border with a country with a different mother tongue.
It’s not surprising in terms of the South as a whole but still surprises me about Arizona & Nevada (I think?)
_iam_that_iam_ t1_j9djhda wrote
They should count students taking English as a second language, but probably don't.
ASoloTrip90000 OP t1_j9dkwef wrote
In the study they do not count ESL as a foreign language, however it's worth noting that not every state counts it as a foreign language either. In California for example, a high school ELD course does not count for World Language (E) credit, but it instead counts as general elective credit (G).
chickenologist t1_j9d0tki wrote
Might need to add a more precise definition of the subject base to the title. Just about all students k-12 in CA take Spanish. I haven't read your source but I presume it's college electives rather than all students.
ASoloTrip90000 OP t1_j9d21fv wrote
No, it's K-12. Remember that in California students are only required to take two years of a language other than English in high school (and that's only if they're on the A-G track). I teach Spanish and French in a public school in CA and where I work most students take two years and stop. Meanwhile, a lot of districts don't even offer language in middle and elementary school.
urbanek2525 t1_j9d5e9l wrote
Is Spanish a "foreign language" in the US, or does it just mean, "foreign to the student"?
ASoloTrip90000 OP t1_j9d5y4h wrote
The terms "foreign language," "world language," and "language other than English" are often used interchangeably even though they are not the same. For example, most schools in California have Spanish classes for both native and non-native speakers. Likewise, it is common to see ASL housed in "foreign language" departments. Truth be told, I just used the term "foreign language" since I thought it would be most recognizable to the reader.
betterpinoza t1_j9dtlm8 wrote
Housing ASL with foreign languages makes sense. Despite the name, the grammar has little to do with English. I'm pretty sure it's based off French sign (and thus French) and was made by some dude who was either Fench or loved French.
Hell, it's apparently considered a creole of French Sign.
urbanek2525 t1_j9dtzj1 wrote
That makes sense. Good explanation.
formerlyanonymous_ t1_j9dpvqh wrote
Texas allows not only ASL but certain computer programming languages as well.
happygotruckie t1_j9dys4b wrote
All kids in Texas are required to take 2 years of a foreign language. Granted that’s not every year of K-12.
killzone3abc t1_j9e00ge wrote
Last I checked at least 2 years of a foreign language class are required to graduate Highschool in Texas.
KungFuHamster t1_j9d3y6s wrote
Some schools have foreign language requirements. My college-prep high school required 2 years. It would be interesting to see number of schools that have a foreign language requirement vs. those that don't, because I'm guessing most students only take the minimum requirement.
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shastaxc t1_j9dmt0c wrote
Don't give Florida any credit. There are just a bunch of kids who already know Spanish who are taking it in school for the free A.
Secretslob t1_j9ffi07 wrote
My college required students to be conversationally fluent in a foreign language before graduation. I had 4 years of middle school/high school French under my belt, but had to take another year of college French before I could pass the fluency test. The first day of class I showed up to a room full of people speaking French completely naturally, which confused me until I realized my classroom with filled with native speaking French-Canadians from the hockey team looking for an easy A. Overall it probably helped me because it was a more immersive experience, but walking into that room on day 1 was a shock.
apoeticturtle t1_ja7yfec wrote
I enjoiyed the personal experience you shared in showing you can relate, but damn u/secretslob you totally killed my momentum for, admittedly from a place of righteousness, telling that redditor about how such generalizations are hurtful and harmfull and..... anyway, thanks. I needed to chill.
ssspiral t1_j9e11p2 wrote
at least in michigan 2 years of a foreign language is required for a high school diploma
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LokiofReddit t1_j9ecahd wrote
In Oregon it’s legally required k - high school for public schools
If you lump all students together, you get bad data. I’m in a masters program. I took foreign language in my undergraduate and I would be screwing these numbers down.
KingVargeras t1_j9ei36x wrote
Utah it’s required in Jr high. But only one year.
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plantman01 t1_j9eqdn9 wrote
Foreign language isnt required at other schools? Even my dogshit highschool had a requirement of 2 semesters foreign language study
munchingzia t1_j9et6ax wrote
i had to take French in NJ. Idk how i passed.
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Cichlidsaremyjam t1_j9fnciw wrote
Wait...taking a foreign language didnt just happen in every school?
MrMitchWeaver t1_j9fssx6 wrote
Pleasantly surprised by the southeast
sans-delilah t1_j9g549c wrote
I f memory serves, in New Mexico, 2 years of foreign language were required to graduate high school in the late aughts. You could however, substitute band, orchestra, or a few other electives for it. I would imagine this is why the percentage is so low in New Mexico.
trollin2023 t1_j9h6gyq wrote
And if they're counting Spanish as a foreign language, they're cheating.
BonjourMaBelle t1_j9hwpd6 wrote
This is great. It seems like some people are tripping on whether this is the % of students who take a foreign language at any point during K-12 OR if it’s the % of all K-12 students currently taking a foreign language class.
As another axis for analysis, it would be interesting to see how these figures have changed over the years (like, do we see a sharp uptick with college language requirements after 1968’s bilingual education act?). Or, as an accumulation of language credits through 12th grade, when most of these classes take place.
anexistentuser t1_j9khetk wrote
Surprised Texas isn’t higher.
fd1Jeff t1_j9d5kq7 wrote
This is very distorted Many schools don’t offer a foreign language until eighth grade or later.
Edit: what I meant was you are automatically going to wind up with a very small number. Not many schools teach foreign languages under eighth grade. And when they said total number of students, did they start counting in kindergarten? You are automatically going to wind up with a very low number. What if 100% of students starting in 10th grade get intensive language training? Or maybe only their senior year? I really think what would be more realistic is how many students graduate speaking a languages that they learned in school.
thoawaydatrash t1_j9d64jn wrote
That doesn’t mean it’s distorted. It’s just part of the reason the numbers are so low in some states.
JPAnalyst t1_j9d86wv wrote
How is it distorted? That literally one of the factors at play here. The title doesn’t imply it’s the students choice or not.
venomoussquid t1_j9emm2r wrote
It's distorting because it doesn't offer any useful comparison between States. Maybe some states have a a larger percent % of K-5 students. If most students don't start a second language until grade 9, why not just use 9-12
ProbablyDrunk303 t1_j9d6nix wrote
And many schools do. I started Spanish in 3rd grade.
johnnyGotHisTabla t1_j9dth6y wrote
But Wyoming doesn't actually exist.
On_The_Contrary_24 t1_j9g5ncp wrote
I went to school in Arkansas about 20 years ago. We had one single choice for foreign language, and that was Spanish. Our Spanish teacher was terrible, didn’t teach us a lick of Spanish, threatened to kill the class, and even one time refused to leave during a fire drill. She threw books at students one time.
Good times.
FredR23 t1_j9goqa8 wrote
How would the chart look if we acknowledged the foreign origin of the language we call English?
whlthingofcandybeans t1_j9drcvy wrote
It is ridiculous that Spanish isn't required in this country, but especially in border states!
OuidOuigi t1_j9ewjt3 wrote
Foreign language classes are required in Texas and Oklahoma for graduation. In my high school we had French and Spanish.
This is misleading.
DeTrotseTuinkabouter t1_j9eo1ku wrote
No idea why someone downvoted you. Given the incredible amount of native Spanish speakers it would make sense. And make travel in Central and South America better. Plus the benefits of simply being bilingual.
[deleted] t1_j9e11yk wrote
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RoutineSuggestion798 t1_j9f5ivi wrote
This asshole using 6 year old data to low key shit on the US.
CrimsoniteX t1_j9dicc1 wrote
I just don’t see the point. (A) you already speak the most popular language in the world, better to learn to speak it well rather than learn a secondary language you will immediately lose due to lack of use. And (B) how do you even go about picking which secondary language to study? You could argue Spanish or French due to shared borders… but is a kid from Connecticut really more likely to go to Mexico than say, Italy? You could do it by popularity but that would be Mandarin followed by Hindi… unless you are going into international business - probably not going to serve you too well. Whats left other than learning for the novelty of it?
Edit: for clarity I am not saying there is no value in learning a second language, just that any given student would find more value deferring that learning until college where they can pick a language that better aligns with their field of study.
woowooman t1_j9ekeig wrote
I chose classical languages (Latin, Greek) for that reason. The practical applications of a random foreign language weren’t immensely clear, but the utility of classical languages was pretty huge in the sciences and as a backbone for future language learning.
seafoodboiler t1_j9dnn9t wrote
You're not considering the number of Spanish language speakers in the US, which is huge, about 41 million.
er15ss t1_j9enziz wrote
English is the 3rd most spoken language in the world.
The US didn't have an official language until recently - the 2000s.
There will be more Spanish speakers in the US than English by 2050.
It's easier to learn a language the younger you are. Age of acquisition was recently lowered to 10 after more studies were conducted. Learning a language after that age, especially as an adult, you will never develop true fluency.
ErieSpirit t1_j9et37p wrote
>The US didn't have an official language until recently - the 2000s.
As far as I know the US still does not have an official language.
anged16 t1_j9dxpww wrote
Arizona wtf are you doing being less cultured than f***ing Florida
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anged16 t1_j9e2f68 wrote
I did not, maybe that extra information should have been attached to this to give context
RelativeAssistant923 t1_j9ey2qb wrote
If the chart included a narrative explanation of the various factors in every state, it'd be long enough that you wouldn't read it. At some point, you're responsible for your own context.
elpajaroquemamais t1_j9dcm0j wrote
Texas is on the fucking border.
SoggyCorndogs t1_j9dk3zt wrote
Texas generally only requires 2 years of foreign language in highschool (9-12). This spans K-12
formerlyanonymous_ t1_j9dprz8 wrote
Texas also allows you to learn certain computer programming language to suffice the "Languages other than English" requirement. Or American Sign Language. Or to test out of the credit if you're bilingual (or more languages).
All dilute the number a bit.
SoggyCorndogs t1_j9ewiux wrote
I wish my two years of "programming" would have translated. VisualBasic is no joke, lol
ETA: My highschool offered Spanish, French, ASL, and Latin of all things
elpajaroquemamais t1_j9ep7mj wrote
Ok. My point is that they should learn more since they border Mexico.
SoggyCorndogs t1_j9ewel4 wrote
Why though? Should Chinese students learn Russian? They border each other...
elpajaroquemamais t1_j9f3lki wrote
China and Russia are a bit more heterogeneous than that but yeah.
SoggyCorndogs t1_j9f84mn wrote
That isn't the point you made...
elpajaroquemamais t1_j9fgp3w wrote
The regions where China and Russia border have many more languages than just Mandarin or Russian. They are decently well blended despite the border. South Texas is basically Mexico and in fact used to be Mexico. It’s absurd that a state with a high Hispanic population doesn’t have a better foreign language requirement to help understand its own residents.
SoggyCorndogs t1_j9fkerc wrote
South Texas is south Texas; not Mexico. The US has a recognized language of American English - Texas is part of the US. Why should students (of US origin) learn a language to better understand the people south of the border? It's like forcing a German to learn French. (comparing Germanic language to Romantic language)
ETA: The US as a whole used to have MANY different native languages.. why aren't there requisite courses for those?
elpajaroquemamais t1_j9fol80 wrote
You’re missing the point. The people already speak Spanish. It used to be part of Mexico
SoggyCorndogs t1_j9fxl02 wrote
And the moon used to be part of the earth..
elpajaroquemamais t1_j9g66vj wrote
What a dumb analogy
Medcait t1_j9dvf7d wrote
This data is ugly and pathetic. Ugh.
PredictorX1 t1_j9d0lwq wrote
I wonder what effect the grade definition has on this? For instance, a place might have more students having taken a foreign language by the time they graduate from high school, but not before grade 10, diluting that place's average across K - 12. It'd also be interesting to see this qualified some how, like "percent of students passing some standardized test of fluency in any foreign language by graduation".