Submitted by Altruistic_Olives t3_zdclt8 in dataisbeautiful
Comments
Eswyft t1_iz12n7d wrote
Yea, these numbers are fucking appalling. Is this person in a developed nation? They must be right?
Like, this is absolutely fucking brutal. Even at his best, he said 20hr, dear god. Min wage is 15 in some places and is far less effort. And he has an average sub 10/hr for sure.
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I've stopped using these services, I always tipped 20% plus but the drivers were often brutal. I live on a street you cant turn left across, the app always accomadates for it. So many times these guys would ignore the app, couldnt turn left, and then just vanish. Uber is the same way, they often ignore the app, go by it, try to turn but do it on another road that doesn't get back to it, and they cancel.
I'm in vancouver, in the core of the city. Streets like this arent uncommon but I do find that 9/10 drivers i actually talk to travel in from the sub urbs to do this kinda work. Which means they are travelling to and from work for an hour plus.
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I had a guy working for me at 28/hr. He started doing uber, calls in sick the next day. Day after, im like what's up? He says, "I started uber and one ride from vancouver to chilliwack paid me 200!! So I'm quitting."
I told him that's all good, but he isnt getting that 200, that's what the guy paid. I tried to show him on the app, that he will still have to pay income tax, that was about a 160km trip, gas.
He was so happy though, said he was going to be rich. I wished him well, and off he went.
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It makes me wonder in general what people are thinking doing these jobs. The only way I see them working is if you're on a bike and you're also doing it as exercise and as a side job, although as a side job you'll get wrecked on taxes if you have any kind of decent job as well.
I don't see how the average driver/delivery person doesn't see how little they are earning.
Nnelg1990 t1_iz1q50f wrote
In Belgium there is the system of flexi-jobs where you don't have to pay taxes if you do it as a side job.
rectovaginalfistula t1_iz1ie39 wrote
This is why, in my city, the driver market (uber/doordash/etc) is almost entirely immigrants without great English. They're willing to bid super low on their labor for who knows what reason. Hard to get a better job? Don't understand the hidden costs?
Eswyft t1_iz1lgna wrote
I'm in Vancouver. There are tons of jobs at 25 hour with zero experience, yet people still do these jobs.
The guy i referenced was a refugee from somalia. He had been here awhile though. I wonder if there is a fundamental lack of knowledge about taxes and other hidden cost at play they may not be so large in other places. It might not cost so much to repair your etc maybe. Maybe taxes are lower
ar243 t1_iz12qi8 wrote
No offense to OP, it's awesome you were able to work so many hours a day, but I do not think this would be worth it.
Delivery jobs like this basically trade automotive equity for quick cash. You may get $25 today, but you'll sell your car for $25 less (or spend an extra $25 in maintenance, or fuel) when the time comes.
I'm not sure how the math works out though, it may be better or worse than I expect.
Eswyft t1_iz13jva wrote
The numbers are brutal, doing these types of jobs is not smart. Literally any other employment is a better option.
I can see some cases where the driver maybe have cognitive issues, or other things impeding their ability to work a regular job.
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If you take into account fuel, depreciation, repairs, your full hours worked. It's very bad.
RentalGore t1_iz131o0 wrote
Yeah, I’m with you. It just seems like a brutal job. Sure you may “be your own boss” (you’re not) - but after doing all the calcs, I don’t see how anyone doing these gig jobs made any money, let alone didn’t lose their shirts in gas, maintenance etc.
InsuranceToTheRescue t1_iz17lra wrote
Could be a lot more. The platform's insurance doesn't cover jack shit and people lie about doing it on their personal insurance because they think it disqualifies them. Then they get in a wreck, the company finds out it was for an order, and tells you to kick rocks.
Gimminy t1_iz1x4w1 wrote
So the guitarist in my kinda hobby band has been doing this for five years. I cannot understand why. The guy works well over 60 hours a week and can barely afford to pay rent or buy strings for his guitar, even. When we play at a club he misses out on almost a whole day’s pay because of load-in times and whatnot. And because he never has even two cents to rub together it is very stressful for him.
I have tried to explain that he could make more money literally working at McDonald’s, but he likes the “freedom” of gig driving work. What fucking freedom, Steven? You can’t even afford to join the rest of us for dinner or a concert, or buy fun things for your guitar setup, and you have to work almost every waking moment of every day? It honestly makes me crazy.
ar243 t1_iz20oqg wrote
I'm right there with you. I don't understand it either.
My best guess is that some people aren't money-driven. For example, a lot of people I went to school with got "useless" majors, and from time to time I would hear them make comments like "it's not about the money", or "I was born to do this". And in their heads, that all takes precedence over the almighty dollar.
And then real life hits them like a freight train, and they are suddenly $40k in student loan debt with a degree that makes no money.
The problem is that these are some of the same people that constantly complain about how little money they make.
I feel somewhat sorry for people like this, but it's also like "did you expect to make a livable wage in Santa Barbara with a Forestry degree, Kevin?".
Some people just don't plan ahead. Idk man.
ArmedPostalWorker t1_iz4bsfi wrote
You could say the same thing for all teachers. All of them are severely underpaid, scrutinized very closely, and had to complete at least 7 years of post secondary education. I have a lot of respect for them as they all know this going into their major, yet somehow there are teachers who are resentful of this fact, and a few who don't belong in the education system... Even though they knew it would be crummy pay and unpaid overtime hours.
ar243 t1_iz5zzws wrote
My girlfriend is a teacher and she also has this mentality. She complains about not being paid enough, barely being able to pay bills, not being able to afford eating out, etc.
She always knew the pay sucked, but "the job chose her".
I don't get it. Don't choose careers that can't afford the lifestyle you have. She got lucky because she met me and I could help, but what about everybody else?
MaxRoofer t1_iz2d9kq wrote
Not having to clock in at a certain time is big for some people. And then what’s worse, is getting not picked by your boss. This is even worse for someone like me, who thought Inwas doing a good job. I hated it when I was younger.
Have my own business now. Sort of miss the ease of an 8-5.
AftyOfTheUK t1_iz58wkz wrote
>I have tried to explain that he could make more money literally working at McDonald’s, but he likes the “freedom” of gig driving work.
This is what annoys me about people who attack these jobs. Some people just hate routine, drudgery, or having a boss who tells them what to do and when. They accept a lower wage for delivering things or people because they feel better about life than if they had a higher wage with someone shouting at them because their tie isn't straight, or they didn't scrub the pan hard enough, or they want to take 90 minutes off to watch the game in the middle of the day.
Society seems to have no problem with people saying "I'm going to quit my corporate job and become a baker because even though it only pays one third as much, I feel better doing it" yet the second somebody decides to make a similar choice but going to the gig economy, suddenly it's seen as a problem.
Many of these people couldn't get a "regular" job so having their gig economy job may be better for them than not having it, and many more of them prefer the flexibility and conditions of the gig economy job. Everyone's different.
Gimminy t1_iz5cpij wrote
Cool. Here’s the difference. The gig economy is exploitative, he is literally being abused. He has no health insurance, no benefits, is applying no real skill of any kind, and he ends up making roughly six dollars an hour. That is one third of minimum wage where I am at. This necessitates that he works insane hours without any forward progress in his life. It is difficult to watch. The freedom is an illusion.
I would love it if he were to work at a bakery, walk dogs, or became yoga a instructor and taught a couple lessons at various studios as a contractor. At least then he would be learning a skill (not to mention he would be making at least three times as much per hour than he does currently).
I get it that some people just can’t handle normal employment. But there are so many other options that are both fulfilling and provide for the basic necessities of life, even outside the traditional employment context. The gig economy is shit and needs to be regulated. I refuse to use any of them.
AftyOfTheUK t1_iz5h141 wrote
>The gig economy is exploitative, he is literally being abused.
That's a strong statement. Got any proof of abuse? Some people like the gig economy because of the flexibility of hours, are they choosing to be abused?
>He has no health insurance, no benefits
Most contractors don't, either.
>is applying no real skill of any kind
Neither are most people working in retail.
>That is one third of minimum wage where I am at.
Yet he chooses to do it, instead of getting a minimum wage job.
>I would love it if he were to work at a bakery, walk dogs, or became yoga a instructor and taught a couple lessons at various studios as a contractor.
Other than (possibly) the bakery, none of those jobs would give him health insurance, or any benefits. Walking dogs is applying no real skill of any kind. Same for yoga instructor, I would argue.
>I get it that some people just can’t handle normal employment.
Exactly. When I was younger, the people who couldn't handle normal employment just didn't have any income of their own. They had no job, and were just a burden on those people around them, or on society. Now many of those people can work (long hours) and make enough money to scrape by. That's an improvement.
Kinetic_Symphony t1_iz45djj wrote
It's extremely profitable if you ride on a motorcycle. Terrible deal in a car.
ar243 t1_iz60dvu wrote
Ehhh I'm not so sure. I've had three motorcycles and so far each of them have proven to be more expensive than I originally anticipated. But I haven't seen the math so maybe it is profitable.
But profits aside, motorcycle delivery driver sounds like a really fun job
Kinetic_Symphony t1_iz60y0u wrote
What made them more expensive? I don't have much experience riding myself, only have used the Honda rebel 1100 with a DCT. Seems to be low maintenance and incredibly cheap on fuel. (Over 50 MPG)
And yeah it does sound fun lol
ar243 t1_iz624wy wrote
Cost of regular maintenance and tire replacements is much higher than a car. Chain, oil, tires, all these things have to be replaced after a while.
Cost of gear is super high too. I wouldn't be surprised seeing gear price tags with four digits.
Plus, motorcycles don't last as long as cars. A motorcycle with 30,000 miles is considered ancient, whereas that's still decently new for a car. So the amount you can drive before needing a new one is a lot shorter.
A lot of these costs aren't seen right away or aren't seen in the MSRP, which gives the illusion that bikes are wayyyy cheaper than cars.
Kinetic_Symphony t1_iz62hvv wrote
Interesting, maybe you're riding different motorcycles. The Honda Rebel 1100 is made exceptionally well, with good maintenance it can easily reach six figure miles before any major issues arise.
Definitely not free, but overall, especially for the very low upfront cost, it's massively cheaper relative to a car.
ar243 t1_iz685y5 wrote
Yeah for sure. Personally my 2018 GSXR 600 is MUCH cheaper than my 2012 Audi A6, which has cost me more in maintenance in 4 years than the original price I bought the car for.
ar243 t1_iz629ol wrote
Also how do you like the DCT? They seem like a super cool addition to any bike, but I've never gotten a chance to ride one with it
Kinetic_Symphony t1_iz63vu1 wrote
It's so smooth when in sport mode (there's custom user modes too so you can manually choose torque, speed, engine breaking).
Hard to imagine going back to non-DCT. Especially in city riding.
ar243 t1_iz68cyz wrote
That's awesome. I'm terrible at shifting, so a DCT would be an amazing upgrade for me.
Kinetic_Symphony t1_iz68orz wrote
It's night and day difference. I know some people say eventually shifting and riding the clutch becomes second nature, and while it is easier overtime it never actually feels perfectly seamless to me.
DCT is a game-changer. Always feels pleasant to ride now, never a fear of stalling at a light lmao.
Altruistic_Olives OP t1_iz2dhye wrote
This is before prop 22 benefits are taken into account. After that it’s about 32k
And work may be spread out trough out the day because of low demand. I try to fill in the gaps doing anything that could be productive or even time with gf so that’s a plus Being able to work in any city is also pretty nice just gotta be in the right places to make enough money consistently
It has been fun although admittedly the pay could be better
RentalGore t1_iz2dnh1 wrote
So how many actually hours did you work?
And about how many miles did you drive?
Altruistic_Olives OP t1_iz2emt3 wrote
I’m not sure about the hours. Some days were a lot better than others. Making $100 dls in 3 hours or 5 Depends on the city you’re in. San Diego has been the best for me overall
I got about 89k on a 2021 I got at 10 miles But I’ve also done plenty of driving on my own
tapakip t1_iz1nxyr wrote
At first glance it sounds like a lot of deliveries, but I just ran the numbers on when I used to deliver pizza. My average 6 hour shift saw 12 deliveries. I worked 5 days of 6 hours apiece, so that's 60 deliveries a week. Call it 50 weeks a year, and I was at 3000 deliveries in a year.
I was also paid $6.25 an hour + tips, which worked out to be approximately $13/hr in total. Total yearly earnings was $19,500.
Note: This was 20 years ago.
ScreamyPeanut t1_iz20yap wrote
Another disruptor company that did nothing but hurt the industry.
I realized that I was making the same $35,000 per year in 1997 that I was making in 2012 doing the same job for a different company. There is def a problem out there.
azur08 t1_iz48zk5 wrote
Enabling delivery from any restaurant you want did not “only hurt” the industry….
ScreamyPeanut t1_iz5uezz wrote
Do you actually think it helped the restaurant industry...lol.....really? Can you explain that?
azur08 t1_iz64eka wrote
There are many restaurants that get way more business because of it. Any restaurant whose kitchen could scale to more than their in-person dining would allow for, would benefit from this.
I have no idea if it’s a NET benefit…but you don’t know if it’s a net cost either…but you asserted that it did nothing bad things to the industry. That’s just plainly untrue.
ScreamyPeanut t1_iz67kzk wrote
I get what you are saying in theory.....
In my area it did nothing to benefit, a number of friends own local restaurants, so not plainly untrue. My statement is true for my area. I can understand if its different in large Metro areas, but like I said, delivery is dead in my area. No side hustle delivery jobs here. No greater food choices for my community. That is def a net cost to my community as a whole.
azur08 t1_iz6dm95 wrote
You said it did nothing it hurt the industry. That IS, in fact, plainly untrue.
And it’s also untrue for your area. Your anecdotes aren’t enough to outweigh the widely understood benefits for some restaurants.
Also, I don’t understand what you mean by “delivery is dead” in your area. If it’s dead, then what’s the problem?
ScreamyPeanut t1_iz4us9t wrote
A lot of damage was done. Some unexpected. I live in a rural area where the local restaurants used to deliver, that ended, and none of these delivery services will work out here....so no more home delivery in my area at all.
Edited to correct my comment
[deleted] t1_iz5oyl2 wrote
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1714alpha t1_iz0uwot wrote
Do you have a breakdown for hourly earnings? Not even gonna bring up other expenses like gas and maintenence.
Altruistic_Olives OP t1_iz0vz4w wrote
No, it’s varied from different cities at different times and days, so some days I didn’t earn much while other days I could earn about $20 h
[deleted] t1_iz0v7y8 wrote
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Jacaxagain t1_iz14crg wrote
"Earned" is misleading where is the fuel costs and car insurance and payments how much does one actually take home
groovy604 t1_iz2qckz wrote
What did your milage and vehicle depreciation add up to?
Robeleader t1_iz33078 wrote
I drove for Lyft for around a year or so and it barely worked.
Seeing your year broken up this way just reminds me of how even though I was working all day, I could barely make ends meet.
And that's before the wear and tear on me and my car are taken into account. Or the innumerable close-calls on the road (I'm safe, but that doesn't mean anyone else is).
I'm sorry you lost the top dasher perk, but i hope this has been able to float you sufficiently.
Altruistic_Olives OP t1_iz0sg37 wrote
Made with Python (Seaborn, Calplot, Pandas), Draw.io
SOURCE: Personal data collection, own data archive from DoorDash
I started recording my daily earnings and tips with DoorDash from the start of the year, intended to do so until the end of the year, but after losing “Top Dasher” status (keep an order acceptance of 70% or more) I got less dashing opportunities.
Note: Earnings do not include CA Prop 22 benefits After prop 22 it amounts to about 32k income from DoorDash
AgentScreech t1_iz3mbp1 wrote
You know how to use python but your income is a delivery driver? Might lean in to that coding thing more and you might make 5x more with 50% less work
TheINTL t1_iz0vdz4 wrote
Is this a good amount? Feels like they should always be paying more. Yet they choose corporate profits over this
agate_ t1_iz1yysd wrote
That's the thing: there aren't any corporate profits either. DoorDash consistently loses a hundred million dollars a quarter, and the more business they do, the more money they lose. Read that last phrase again: it's the sure sign of a broken business model.
The problem is easy to see from OP's chart: working 14 hours a day, he makes 2600 deliveries at $26,000/year, or $10 per delivery. Not many people are gonna pay $10 to have $10 worth of Taco Bell delivered, so DoorDash charges less than that and pays OP more, taking a loss.
If we want OP to earn an actual living wage, with health insurance and coverage for gas and wear and tear on his car, it's gonna cost at least $30 per delivery. Ain't nobody on Earth going to pay that much.
Whether you're a customer, a dasher, or a stockholder, Doordash just. Doesn't. Work.
AftyOfTheUK t1_iz59r9y wrote
>If we want OP to earn an actual living wage, with health insurance and coverage for gas and wear and tear on his car, it's gonna cost at least $30 per delivery. Ain't nobody on Earth going to pay that much.
And as a society, we need to ask why they wouldn't.
That person considering paying also has a car, and gas, and wear and tear to pay for. They also have their own time that's worth something to them, just like the driver.
As a society, if we're in a position that someone with valuable time (say, a white-collar worker) and an expensive car with high gas prices CANNOT justify paying someone with less valuable time and a cheaper, better mileage car, we need to ask ourselves why - what barriers are we putting in place?
From an economical standpoint, having someone who earns 7$5k/year be unable to pay someone who earns $40k/year to do a simple task for them just means we have inefficiencies in our system that we need to work out. When we don't work them out, and leave the status quo, we have a far less efficient economy. The 75k guy has to waste his time and burn more gas to achieve something, and the 40k guy misses out on work.
I'd argue that your $30/hr figure is way too high though, given the number of people currently doing this work for far less.
Eswyft t1_iz135c1 wrote
They should, but people wouldn't pay it. And yea there seems to be no shortage of people willing to be paid peanuts like op here.
It's baffling why anyone does this. The one exception i see is on a bike for exercise and as a side gig, but if you have other income you'll get even more wrecked on taxes. Really, it'd just be for the few extra dollars and exercise.
Altruistic_Olives OP t1_iz2c52n wrote
That is the amount before prop 22 After counting in benefits and other pays it’s about 32k
It’s ok
abstract_concept t1_iz2d6u1 wrote
So what did you include in the earnings calc on the chart vs. excluded ?
Altruistic_Olives OP t1_iz2dwlg wrote
None of the charts include additional income from benefits
It’s tips + daily earnings
anotheralpaca69 t1_iz0yfvp wrote
It's literally a publicly traded gig job. Do you choose to pay people more than you have to?
AftyOfTheUK t1_iz5a5fx wrote
You're getting downvoted on Reddit for pointing out that humans are human. This place is depressing sometimes.
I know people who are "against the tipping culture" and want to get rid of it... even though EVERY server I know wants to keep it because they earn more than they would otherwise. A couple of the people I know against tipping will tip far less than I do - and then when I point that out they get defensive and say that the person should be paid a better wage so they don't need tips.
It's impossible to get through their skull that their position is one of selfishness, not altruism.
D1stRU3T0R t1_iz2atfz wrote
Respect for including self picture!
xylopyrography t1_iz338ze wrote
Does that even include depreciation, fuel, insurance, and maintenance on a vehicle?
Even without that... Just brutal on a per hour basis. I have no idea how this industry is still going.
I think you should try to 5x your earnings by doing something with data or graphic design. Good job on the data!
Old_Car_2702 t1_iz3hq36 wrote
Poverty in America is 12k and under per year. At least you beat America’s definition of poverty.
Diamond_Road t1_iz1kawj wrote
Being that this is doordash the guy with the 198 dollar was defintely using a hacked account lol
gol706 t1_iz3ec1b wrote
Chickfila at 11AM kinda screams office lunch order.
[deleted] t1_iz1ui53 wrote
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[deleted] t1_iz2cubv wrote
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Rogaar t1_iz3ojzc wrote
You could earn more money then this working at McDonalds.
Sheamus_1852 t1_iz4e8aa wrote
Do you ever pick up other services in the slow periods? Do you do Uber, Lyft, or Amazon Flex while doing door dash?
To me Amazon Flex seems the simplest. Pick up 30ish packages to deliver, do that for a bit, then stop and DoorDash the dinner rush, then finish delivering the packages.
Altruistic_Olives OP t1_iz4xtko wrote
I used to do both Uber and DoorDash
I can still do Uber, not so great in my area either so I may just get into trucking if I don’t land a data related job
Amazon sounds alright, I’ll check it out!
[deleted] t1_iz4w61r wrote
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jimbob913 t1_iz2e82k wrote
Is it worth is? How much does DoorGash make?
Altruistic_Olives OP t1_iz2ftq3 wrote
If you can keep the top dasher and stay busy (work in a big city) sure, it can work out
DoorDash takes a percentage from the sale on each store. I’m guessing it’s a different percentage from each
westsidethrilla t1_iz3jyuu wrote
If each order took 20 minutes (aggressive guess) it would be about $28/hr pre-tax before any costs.
Funkiebunch t1_iz0vaxm wrote
Someone doesn’t know how to schedule shifts as a non top dasher.
Altruistic_Olives OP t1_iz0w7v0 wrote
It sucks now. I used to see more available slots in my home town but now it’s pushing me to go to other cities farther away
Suspicious-Drama-549 t1_iz0zma6 wrote
Holy shit was one guy responsible for like 75% of your orders?
lucpz t1_iz14xan wrote
how did you get that from this data?
Dragonasaur t1_iz1jef5 wrote
Last column where he said he lost his top customer dasher
lucpz t1_iz1jwnu wrote
that's not what top dasher means
Suspicious-Drama-549 t1_iz2hu0w wrote
Ok sorry I’m not in with the DoorDash lingo
RentalGore t1_iz0vb6w wrote
It looks like you worked an average of 14 hours a day from the first chart. And it also seems like this could be the same across all seven days? Which works out to under $6 an hour?
If you take into account accelerated deprecation and wear and tear on your automobile, do you feel the delivery gig is still worth it?