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IndeterminateYogurt OP t1_j2cvgov wrote

Data: data.worldbank.org, data sets for gdp, population, defense spending, percentage of defense spending.

Tools used: R with ggplot2

Explanation: The black line represents 2% of GDP spent on the military, hence countries above that line spend more.

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kthnxbai123 t1_j2cw4er wrote

This is very neat! I like that you color coded the regions also.

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de6u99er t1_j2cwu4n wrote

How many of those countries are NATO members?

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virtuouspapaya t1_j2cx9v9 wrote

Very interesting! Would also be interesting to do analysis by these regions. I can tell by looking at the graph that a much higher percentage of the Middle Eastern countries are above the threshold than in Africa.

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IndeterminateYogurt OP t1_j2cz73q wrote

thanks! yeah, the World Bank thankfully supplies metadata regarding regions. Generally a great source for socioeconomic data that is easy to use! Theres even an R package to download data directly from their servers.

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jakubkonecki t1_j2d26ss wrote

Can't always tell which label belongs to which point.

Can't tell why only certain counties are labelled.

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agingmonster t1_j2d56ge wrote

Both dimensions are per capita almost forcing linearity under naive assumption which doesn't relate to your main message or insight. Consider changing y axis to % of GDP to defence to make meaningful insight stand out.

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s3maph0re t1_j2d9vrs wrote

Actually incorrect, there is no obligation in NATO to spend 2%. What the 2% comes from is a 2006 pledge by members, but that was non-binding and is a "target" not a minimum.

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farmallnoobies t1_j2da15b wrote

Cool.

Is there a similar plot for offensive spending rather than defense?

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IndeterminateYogurt OP t1_j2dgb9z wrote

You could argue tho, that the "We can kill anything that moves wherever it is in less than 30 seconds"-ability the US gets for not spending a bit of the money on healthcare and education is a bit overkill and a bit unneeded.

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androbot t1_j2dhw0y wrote

It would be great to see labels for the top 10 or 20 countries by GDP (total, not per capita). This is a neat visualization.

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Jinxedchef t1_j2di6pv wrote

I always try to tell people that by GDP the US military spending isn't that far out of whack. But compared to revenue it is way too high.

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BicycleGripDick t1_j2dibw5 wrote

Ah, it looks like the Subsaharan is ripe for the picking!

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JustOneAvailableName t1_j2dih9m wrote

Although I do agree that europe could use a boost to it's army, I think it's mainly in a reduction in bureaucracy and investing more in domestic military industry. The EU has 20% more military personnel and thrice US's reserve. A large reason why expendenture is so much less is that it's aimed at defense and not oversea power projection. I.e. no aircraft carriers and nuclear subs

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gscjj t1_j2djhsg wrote

Sure, the sit and wait strategy. Only problem is that doesn't stop enemies from getting to you in the first place.

The US has spent 25 billion in military aid to Ukraine which is practically double the aid from the EU. And Russia isn't advancing on our doorsteps.

If the US spent zero, there's a good chance Ukraine would be a Russian state by now becuase the EU couldn't do it alone, that's sort of what I'm saying.

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IndeterminateYogurt OP t1_j2dkrsx wrote

I used this:

#   geom_smooth(
#     method = "glm",
#     formula = y ~ x,
#     method.args = list(family = gaussian(link = 'log')),

is that not how to do a log-log-transformation in ggplot2? So far haven't worked with a lot of log-scaled data

EDIT: ah, seems to only log y. That explains the curvature.

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Therealdickjohnson t1_j2dkye6 wrote

Yes. The US spends a higher percentage on healthcare than any other country. Significantly higher than other ocad countries. Problem is the system is not efficient. Huge amounts go into administrative costs because it isn't centralized. Wages for health professionals are also a lot higher in the states than any other country. And drug costs are higher than everywhere else too.

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ltethe t1_j2dlced wrote

What’s nuts is that in the 18th century, military spending was around 30% of GDP for many countries.

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IkeRoberts t1_j2dmqg2 wrote

How much is that target driven by the desire of the US defense industry to sell more stuff?

That industry has a lot of influence on policy, and a policy that increases sales and profit is great for business.

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Boonpflug t1_j2dmrrw wrote

the linear fit seems off could be log or sqrt fit better

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4D51 t1_j2dmv3m wrote

That's probably one of the difficulties with this sort of comparison. Some things can't be divided neatly into offence or defence. Fighter jets can do both, for example.

There's also the "none of the above" category that can differ wildly from country to country. Does the naval budget include a yacht for the head of state? Does the army double as a police force? Is the military in charge of completely random shit like hydro dams? Sweden is famous for using highways as air force bases. Does that mean they can count highway construction as defence spending?

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DecentlySizedPotato t1_j2dn9ou wrote

Military spending, even in the US, is almost an order of magnitude smaller than social security spending. Many western European countries have about 20% GDP spending on social security (including healthcare, public pensions, etc.). The US spends 3% of GDP in defence, most EU countries 1-2%. So defence spending is almost a rounding error here, it can be increased or decreased without almost affecting social security spending.

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Pabrinex t1_j2doizj wrote

Really? Which ones?

Most countries would have had tax bases of only 10-20% of GDP back then so even if say, 70% of the national budget went on defence that'd be implausible.

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Xelaxander t1_j2dov07 wrote

Interestingly the correlation coefficient seems to be larger than 1.0.

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StationOost t1_j2dpcjc wrote

It's an important part, but American military aid is overpriced so any comparison of monetary value is useless. There is a lot you can do with 10 million, other than having a single missle.

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Til_W t1_j2dqt3p wrote

Yes, but if you want to repel an invasion, you do need missiles, there's no way around it. Humanitarian aid is very important for lessening the pain that is already there, but it isn't going to stop Russia from hurting more.

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KristinnK t1_j2draex wrote

Historically this hasn't been a problem, since the hypothetical war NATO was designed to fight was with the Soviet Union, and that war would happen when the Soviet Union actually invaded alliance members.

The situation today is quite different. The present and future threat is an aggressive China. For the continental alliance members to be useful in that fight they would need to invest heavily in power projection. And that simply isn't going to happen until China has already gone rogue, and will come too late to make any difference (see the war in Ukraine for reference).

Instead the U.S. will have to lean on allies in the Western Pacific. A re-armed Japan is going to be key, as well as South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, the Philippines and Australia. Defensive alliances with Vietnam and Indonesia also need to be established. China needs to be put in a position where a stunt like that of Russia in Ukraine would be absolutely suicidal to Chinese society, economy and instustry.

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bnogal t1_j2drhjw wrote

Fake info.

Around 30% of countries says they spend more than 2% of GDP on their military.

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MetaCalm t1_j2drn0o wrote

Thanks.

But what a waste. What an effing waste for mankind to spend that much on protecting him from self.

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r2k-in-the-vortex t1_j2drtuz wrote

High military spending is very much not a good thing. While necessary for most countries, military spending is not really productive, it doesn't help build a better, more capable society and it's a lost opportunity to spend on things that would.

That's at best case, at worst case someone starts thinking that all that spending should really be put to some use and goes and does something catastrophically stupid like invades a neighbor.

That in modern world almost universally ends badly for all parties involved.

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Archmagnance1 t1_j2dsmqq wrote

Yes but that wasn't the point. The point was explaining the different approaches. The US is an ocean away from anyone that isn't Central America or Canada. European NATO members were a couple hours train ride at most (besides the UK) from the reason NATO was formed, the USSR. Different geographical locations require different solutions.

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Archmagnance1 t1_j2dt126 wrote

I assume they mean during the big conflicts because armies would be levied and trained specifically for conflicts instead of having standing armies. It's not absurd to think that during the napoleanic wars, the prussian expansion wars, and german unification wars that countries would be spending that much of their GDP. In peacetime though, i highly doubt it. Even during the naval revolution from 1860(ish) on through WW1 i doubt it reached 30% GDP, even the Royal Navy.

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MyriadSounds t1_j2dtcxz wrote

Thanks for that, great graphic. Why did you choose exactly these 10 countries to be named specifically? Also sad that so much money is spent on military.

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Doctrina_Stabilitas t1_j2duudi wrote

It could be more efficient but it isn’t that bad a large portion of the US budget goes into healthcare and r&d

Am you are after all writing this text against military spending against on a thing developed using military r&d, mainly the internet (and likely on a GPS enabled device)

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Til_W t1_j2duxpy wrote

TBH, this is a really stupid take and makes me think you're not that familiar with the topic of defense.

You can't stop a main battle tank with your rifle, actually no armored vehicle - you'll at the very least want AT missiles for those. And if you haven't noticed yet: Russia has a lot of these vehicles.

Now, if you were talking about non-AT AG missiles like HARM, you need those for defense (and retaking territory) too, mainly for attacking behind the lines equipment like artillery and air defense, which both are extremely important for supporting your enemies offense.

In case you missed it, it's no longer WW1.

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markth_wi t1_j2dvxqk wrote

The inconpicuous beige dot with the 100k GDP and Polish levels of military spending....that's Switzerland....isn't it.

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JayKane1 t1_j2dx4fa wrote

Why do some of the colors not match the legend

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emerging_potato t1_j2dzma3 wrote

Why not just put the % of GDP per Capita on Military Spending on the y-axis? This way the audience wouldn’t need to do the math themselves.

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Savvsb t1_j2e0j5j wrote

This truly is beautiful (the data, not what it represents)

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hassanhamadc t1_j2e1nsy wrote

It's alright but colors are not clear and I wished points were numbered and sorted highest to lowest in a legend on the side. Maybe harder to implement than I imagine.

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hswerdfe_2 t1_j2e4d4d wrote

Nice. But I suggest the removal of the alpha, as it just makes it more confusing, adding no new information to the plot.

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StationOost t1_j2e60g2 wrote

I didn't say you should try to stop a tank with a rifle, what a stupid suggestion. I'm saying that most of the warfare in Ukraine is by infantry right now. If that is "WW1" for you, whatever.

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Ravingraven21 t1_j2e8zr1 wrote

Why are they both normalized per capita? If it's just Defense vs GDP, what does per capita have to do with it on both axis?

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popejubal t1_j2e9fr1 wrote

It should still be noticeably higher because each measure is only 10 times the last. Not having horizontal lines makes it hard to see as well.

This data is interesting, but it is not beautiful.

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japanesepiano t1_j2egxx0 wrote

The log scale is somewhat misleading. It makes it look like Ukraine and Russia aren't that far apart when in fact Russia is roughly 4x higher per person (and has many more people) than Ukraine leading to a huge imbalance in available weapons in the current war.

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dewlocks t1_j2ehgpr wrote

It’s a valid question. Not sure why the downvotes. It’s one of those things that is said so often, defense = military, no one really thinks about what the offense would be.

Wouldn’t all non-defense spending be offense spending? Transportation, agriculture, education etc. everything non-military related?

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pk10534 t1_j2ela2u wrote

It’s bizarre you’d claim defense spending isn’t productive when defense spending in the US alone gave the world GPS, the internet (ARPANET), EpiPens, BugSpray, Duct Tape, Computers via the Army Research Laboratory, Nuclear Energy, Walkie-Talkies, and more.

I would consider quite a few of those inventions to be instrumental in our building of a “better, more capable” society.

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r2k-in-the-vortex t1_j2emklp wrote

These are all unintended side effects, inverse of collateral damage really. Imagine if the same sums that go to military would have been put towards R&D with a goal of civilian use to begin with.

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pk10534 t1_j2endsf wrote

Those aren’t “unintended side effects” they were purposeful research projects. Do you realize how much money and planning and coordination went into projects like ARPANET, in conjunction with universities and the corporate world? To act as though these were accidents as if the DoD just stumbled into making GPS or ARPANET is just incredibly naive, to the point of sounding purposely facetious. You’re just making these claims that have no basis in reality and completely ignore the history of these projects and defense spending because you don’t want to admit that it has resulted in some pretty innovative projects.

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pastdecisions t1_j2eox2q wrote

Wait a second, is that Europe spending money on military? Who could've thought

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Til_W t1_j2eqxkc wrote

You said that "missiles are not that effective for defense". If Ukraine is being invaded using e. g. lots of armored vehicles and you claim that missiles are not effective, what should they use instead? You only mentioned your "100 million bullets".

Adressing the current situation on the ground: So what? Infantry needs to be supported by vehicles, artillery and missiles to be properly effective. Zelensky was specifically asking for more Patriot systems (AA missiles!) just a week ago, they need them to shoot down Russian cruise missiles which are targeting Ukrainian infrastructure - yet you claim sending missiles is not effective for defense - huh?

If you're so convinced, please give me a concrete example of what missile that the US is sending to Ukraine is not effective or a waste of money.

^(And I don't think sending 100 million bullets would be worth it instead, Ukraine isn't actually short on mags. What they will need a lot of is AA missiles and artillery munition such as shells or GMLRS missiles.)

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CapitalHighHDLR t1_j2esrz8 wrote

That’s bullshit of you to combine Europe and Central Asia. Not distinguishing between Western Europe and the rest of it is one, but this?

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omegasix321 t1_j2ew93g wrote

Yup, and it's not like all of it just goes into making a shit ton of bombs either. A good third of the budget is just for salaries and maintenance of existing equipment. We could legitimately cut half of the budget and still be the largest, best-maintained, and most modern military on the planet.

The real money waster is bullshit blank cheque contracting(over 400B in 2021) and outright money laundering/theft. There's a reason the pentagon has never passed an audit. Over half of its assets are just straight-up unaccounted for.

The modern U.S. military is a money sink for the corrupt and greedy, and every single politician that votes for yearly budget increases are complicit.

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r2k-in-the-vortex t1_j2eysmd wrote

Of course they built them for a purpose, for the purpose of military use. It just happened that they were also incredibly useful for civilian use unlike many other DoD projects, but these projects weren't funded with that in mind.

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pk10534 t1_j2f0z9c wrote

Does it really matter what the intended purpose was..? You stated that it never led to a better society, I’ve now given you quite a few examples of when defense spending absolutely led to a better society.

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mrmalort69 t1_j2f5qd6 wrote

This is a good way of visualizing it, you could also make the dots big and small representing the population of the country?

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r2k-in-the-vortex t1_j2f6ouw wrote

You are cherry-picking random good accidents, what about all the rest of the military spending that had no other value than the military type? And do you think these advancements wouldn't have happened in civil sector anyway? They happened in military research because that's where the money went, not because military spending is inherently useful.

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Stillwater215 t1_j2f8mq3 wrote

Nice graph. Though I would actually take out having it be “per capita.” Since you’re using that for both axes, it’s actually not having any effect on the data points.

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Better__Off_Dead t1_j2ffjbw wrote

The US federal government spends 3.7% of its GDP on the military, but they spend 16.3% on healthcare.

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MattrixLarr t1_j2fjdj6 wrote

Which country of LATAM is that green point on the bottom left?

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Rhydsdh t1_j2fqfir wrote

It's because back then defence was the primary function of the state. The welfare state had not been invented yet, and governments had far fewer responsibilities than they do today.

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