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BobRussRelick t1_j5az8ki wrote

what's missing from this conversation as per usual is the discussion of widely disparate covid risks among various groups

when combined with the fact that it was made public in August of 2021 (when delta became prevalent) that the vaccine no longer prevented infection, and soon after that it was seen that the partial protection waned quickly, yet the vaccine was still mandated to young healthy groups who had practically no risk from covid, and for children had greater risk from the vax side effects than from covid. as a result, the excess death data from actuaries shows a huge spike at over 200% in excess deaths among young people in fall of 2021 right when the mandates came out compared to elevated background excess deaths of around 130% at the time.

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thunder-thumbs t1_j5bsgeu wrote

> August of 2021 (when delta became prevalent) that the vaccine no longer prevented infection

Completely false and nonsensical, to the point that “not even wrong” applies. No vaccine ever was purported to “prevent” infection; instead, they reduce the probability, and lessen severity if you do catch it. Even the first vaccine still has efficacy along those lines. It’s true that efficacy is reduced after the first few weeks, but there is still plenty of benefit left over.

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TracyMorganFreeman t1_j5bxvtt wrote

That is done by reducing viral load. They also didn't claim it stopped all infection, but reducing probability of infection has the effect of reducing infections.

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BobRussRelick t1_j5f6fh8 wrote

the vaccine did not reduce viral load when delta became prevalent, this was mainstream news in August of 2021 https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people

and yes there are literally millions of instances where they claimed it reduced infection https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/553773-fauci-vaccinated-people-become-dead-ends-for-the-coronavirus/

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pukabi t1_j5ceoi2 wrote

Which is not a vaccine definition

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surreal_mash t1_j5dba6j wrote

Which part do you think makes it “not a vaccine by definition”?

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pukabi t1_j5dc4us wrote

It neither prevents nor treats the disease in question.

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QristopherQuixote t1_j5elmmh wrote

Reducing severity and increasing the survival rate by stimulating the immune system of the recipient is absolutely consistent with the definition of a vaccine. 🤦🏻‍♂️

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surreal_mash t1_j5fjug2 wrote

Which vaccines “treat” disease?

Are you claiming that a “true” vaccine must prevent 100% of infections? If not, can you tell me what you mean by “prevents”?

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grapangell0 t1_j5ci18n wrote

They’re not ready to understand that the powers that be change the definition of shit to make themselves right.

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greatdrams23 t1_j5e8fdb wrote

Yes, it is odd that anti Vaxxers say they don't need the vaccine because they have an immune system, but don't realise their immune system only works AFTER the virus has entered the body.

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surreal_mash t1_j5g1bpo wrote

This. Either way, the immune response only happens after infection. The question is whether the immune system has been armed and trained to fight possible intruders (vaccinated) or will be caught completely off-guard (exposure to an unknown pathogen; unvaccinated).

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Alternative-Flan2869 t1_j5bcvh1 wrote

The vaccine prevented serious hospitalization and/or death. New Zealand handled that vax advantage with proper masks correctly, and to date has only 2437 covid deaths! (US has 1,111,004 covid deaths.)

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BobRussRelick t1_j5be1u2 wrote

correlation is not causation sorry, Africa had minimal vaccination or masking and also low covid deaths

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coffeesharkpie t1_j5bflc0 wrote

Are you seriously comparing the US to Africa? Just look at stats of mean age, obesity, climate, time spent outside, and those immunsystems hardend by things like malary...

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BobRussRelick t1_j5bljdf wrote

exactly my point with New Zealand

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coffeesharkpie t1_j5bzuc7 wrote

While I see your point and agree with it mostly. One could still make a case that at least in some key metrics like average age, life expectancy, physicians per 1000 inhabitants NZ and the USA are rather similar. While e.g. the average South African is roughly 10 years younger (38 vs 28 yrs)...

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dog_eat_god t1_j5cuuoz wrote

New Zealand is an unfair comparison because the initial variations of COVID and their higher mortality rates never got there. Better to compare the US to Canada or any number of Western European countries that actually had to deal with COVID from the beginning. Not saying the US did well, just that there are better comparisons.

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Alternative-Flan2869 t1_j5dgohm wrote

It is a more than valid leadership comparison. For example, at the very beginning of covid our “president” ordered US sailors to not be let off their ship to receive covid treatment, leading to unnecessary contraction/sicknesses and preventable deaths. And why? He condemned them to sickness and death to ‘keep down the numbers.’

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PhysicsCentrism t1_j5bapgr wrote

Source on those claims?

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BobRussRelick t1_j5bblcx wrote

which ones are you disputing, all of them?

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PhysicsCentrism t1_j5bbqt7 wrote

The last ones regarding the excess death numbers of youths

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BobRussRelick t1_j5bg9cx wrote

check out table 5.7 on page 23 https://www.soa.org/4a368a/globalassets/assets/files/resources/research-report/2022/group-life-covid-19-mortality-03-2022-report.pdf

also the graphs on page 9 here https://www.soa.org/4a55a7/globalassets/assets/files/resources/research-report/2022/excess-death-us.pdf

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Molsar t1_j5bz043 wrote

Did you by chance read the rest of the report. I mean just a few graphs above show the increases in excess deaths is FL, GA, TN, and TX. All of which had no vaccine mandates, just the opposite of what you are implying. Just more anti vax clap trap

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BobRussRelick t1_j5f6vb9 wrote

that is not true, the mandates were mostly at schools, universities and workplaces not statewide. and plenty in those states.

and please explain the increase in excess deaths if not from the vaccine, and also this- I'd love to see someone post this to dataisbeautiful but I know they won't https://twitter.com/EU_Eurostat/status/1615289083311575041

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Molsar t1_j5fc878 wrote

Don't be daft .. maybe COVID. Show me stats that show states with the highest increases in excess deaths are in the highly vaccinated states and not the Dumb states.

Tell you what I'll make it easy. US soldier where mandated and they are right in that age group. Show the increases of military members deaths.

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BobRussRelick t1_j5fdjfb wrote

The stats I linked have datasets excluding covid, so clearly no.

And I showed you that data you are requesting in Europe, clearly the least vaccinated nations have the fewest excess deaths today, is that due to climate change or?

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schmowd3r t1_j5bg85x wrote

Just different from normal anti vax talking points for you to disavow them, but similar enough for you to be utterly full of shit.

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BobRussRelick t1_j5bomwj wrote

I am vaccinated, a believer in vaccines and a proponent of the vaccines for those who benefit, rather than these "spray and pray" policies that follow the political science more than the medical science and cause more anti-vax sentiment in the long run

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QristopherQuixote t1_j5elty0 wrote

Hmmm… ya, kids returned to day care, school sports, etc in 2021, but don’t let disease vectors get in the way of your awesome analysis. Post the data that showed a 200% jump in excess mortality?

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BobRussRelick t1_j5f6zuf wrote

>check out table 5.7 on page 23 https://www.soa.org/4a368a/globalassets/assets/files/resources/research-report/2022/group-life-covid-19-mortality-03-2022-report.pdf
>
>also the graphs on page 9 here https://www.soa.org/4a55a7/globalassets/assets/files/resources/research-report/2022/excess-death-us.pdf

kids didn't die of covid, the deaths in that age group were so low the CDC removed it from the dataset

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