Submitted by bentobam t3_10ohrv7 in explainlikeimfive
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Submitted by bentobam t3_10ohrv7 in explainlikeimfive
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TIL the game telephone was invented before an actual telephone
TIL they came to tell a fawn to wash in fences. Beef or an axe you alt-elephant.
/r/boneappletea for more accidental telephone game players
They used to call the game "Chinese Whispers" ;-)
Also, Japan in Cantonese (Canton region was also a huge port / trading district) is pronounced "Yap-bun" which also sounds similar to Japan.
Being a trading port, Guangzhou was home to Portuguese traders who heard local pronunciations as Cantão, which led to the older English name Canton, which lives on in our name for the Cantonese language/dialect.
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Kanto is named after the Kanto region of Japan, not after Canton.
You’re right, I totally pulled that out of my ass with no thought and didn’t really check. That was stupid of me to act like I knew
What's weird to me is if you read stuff from the WWII era and before, it was common for people to refer to Japan as Nippon, and they called Japanese people Nipponese (if they weren't using a pejorative). It's kinda crazy that everybody says Japan now in English instead of Nippon, which is what the Japanese say.
Well, Japan changed the pronunciation of it's own name from Nippon to Nihon after WW2. The actual name didn't change, both are legit readings of 日本. They switched because Nihon sounds softer and they wanted to show commitment to peace and demilitarization.
Huh, TIL. Thanks!
In this case it was literally Chinese Whispers.
Time can never mend the Chinese Whispers of a good friend.
I NEVER WANNA DANCE AGAIN!
Just being abit of Grammer nazi and pointing out that it should be "那", not "哪". The latter means which is the Sun's Origin while the former means what you meant.
Just going to drop this here in case you haven't seen it....
Zipangu, too! Apparently Marco Polo called “the land of gold.“
Are you able to explain Misr = Egypt? I know Misr stems from money (masry)
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It's basically one of two (or two and a half) ways.
1 - The name the country calls itself in its language is spread around and changes in spelling and pronunciation occur as it shifts between languages, but there is still the "root" of that name in that "home" language. Remember, a lot of place names came about before modern communications.
2 - The name is attributed because of some real or perceived characteristic of the country and some term is coined in another country to refer to the people and place of the other country.
2.5 - A name from 2 is then spread around to other countries and languages, kinda like in 1.
e.g. “Germany” is so named because of all the germs. Maybe. Idk.
From the Latin Germania which is what the Romans called the Germanic tribes who lived beyond the borders of the empire in that direction. I don't know where that term came from.
But an example is Bahamas is from the Spanish words "Baja mar" for "shallow sea"
See, I thought the Bahamas were named after Baja Blast.
it's from the name of a local tribe near the rhine with whom the romans had contact: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Germany#:~:text=Etymology,in%20the%201st%20century%20B.C.E.
We got New Zealand because it looked like the Old Zealand
And we have Newfoundland because, at the time, they had only just recently discovered it.
In Welsh, Germany is Yr Almaen, which is from the Alemanni, an ancient Germanic tribal confederation.
Florence, which is Firenze in Italian, is called Florence and variants in other countries because when Julius Caesar settled men there it was called "Florentia". "Germany" comes from the Latin as well. Switzerland in some contexts is "Confoederatio Helvetica", again from the Latin, but then there are 4 languages used there. Switzerland comes from the name of one of the original provinces, Schwyz.
US states like Kansas and Arkansas are named for rivers named for native tribes, much modified. Arkansas got passed through French. Canada was a misunderstanding; it seems to have been named for the Huron word for "settlement" (Kanata) based on directions Cartier was given to Stadacona (later Quebec.)
Japan may have been given its name based on the name the Chinese (Riben) or the Malaysians (Japung) called it, both referring to the land to the East (Land of the Rising Sun.) The Japanese changed from calling it Yamato to calling it Nippon.
Even weirder is that the common pronunciation of Kansas is "can sass" and Arkansas is "Ark an saw"
What? Well colour me embarrassed. I been saying saying “Can Saw” and “R Can Sass” ever since that one guy in a bar got all pi$$y at me…..
I believe it's because Arkansas came through the French and Kansas did not.
OP is asking why the names are different in different languages.
For Germany it's because of the different tribes. The Allemans next to France (Allemagne), the Saxons in the northeast (Saksa in Finnish), etc.
In addition to the above translation issues and playing telephone, I'd like to take this opportunity to quote terry pratchett, who has a quote for every situation.
​
The forest of Skund was indeed enchanted, which was nothing unusual on the Disc, and was also the only forest in the whole universe to be called – in the local language – Your Finger You Fool, which was the literal meaning of the word Skund. The reason for this is regrettably all too common. When the first explorers from the warm lands around the Circle Sea travelled into the chilly hinterland, they filled in the blank spaces on their maps by grabbing the nearest native, pointing at some distant landmark, speaking very clearly in a loud voice, and writing down whatever the bemused man told them. Thus were immortalised in generations of atlases such geographical oddities as Just A Mountain, I Don’t Know, What? and, of course, Your Finger You Fool.
My grandmother loved to tell the story of how the Ompompanoosuc River, in Vermont, got its name.
A European explorer came to the area and found a young girl, asking the name of the river. The young Native girl, desperate to get medical help for her father, I believe the local chief, but she didn't really understand English. She knew the explorer was English, though, so she cried out "ompampanoosuc" -- "My papa is sick!" The traveler didn't catch on, though, so it's been immortalized as Ompompanoosuc.
Canada was named because when the locals were asked the name of the place the explorers landed, they replied with the local name -- "The Village". This became the name for all of the land in the northern third or so of the continent, instead of the more accurate few square kilometers (or miles), and possibly even less than that, ignoring the vast multitude of different cultures, people, and languages in the new (to Europeans) place.
It's also why England has plenty of rivers named Avon which was the celtic word for river. When the romans came and asked the locals what the river was they simply replied its a river
The British called the capital of China "Peking" when they forced trade onto China, and it remained Peking in the west for a long time. In 1979, China requested that the west pronounce it a more accurate "Beijing", and it has continued since then.
When Alexander the Great took over Egypt, the people from that country called themselves "Kemet" (or something like that). The way we pronounce Egypt is a rough translation from the Greek.
Ohh… I always thought it was because “Peking” is close to the Cantonese pronunciation of Beijing (bak-king) and the historical European trade routes were through HK and Guangzhou. Then after the Communists made Mandarin the main dialect, the spelling was changed to reflect the pinyin of the Mandarin pronunciation of the capital which is Beijing.
I'd be willing to bet that your understanding of this is accurate!
I've been wondering why Peking duck (北京烤鴨 Beijing roast duck) is called Peking duck...
I always thought they had it watch somebody get dressed.
Peking is actually a victim of european pronounciation drift. When we started spelling it Peking (17th century) the pronounciation of those letters were relatively close to the chinese pronounciation. Then the p:s hardened and the normal pronounciation of k:s became /k/ instead of /ʒ/
No, that's not it at all.
The p sound didn't change, either in Europe or in China. The Wade-Giles romanization system recognized that Mandarin Chinese doesn't distinguished voiced and unvoiced consonants like European languages, but rather aspirated and unaspirated. So p' (with an apostrophe) was used for an aspirated p sound and a plain p was used for an unaspirated one.
Unfortunately, these apostrophes were frequently omitted by people uninterested in accurate Chinese pronunciation, so one often saw things such as "Tang dynasty" instead of "T'ang dynasty". For that reason among others, a new romanization system called Pinyin was developed. Now an aspirated t was written t instead of t' (incidentally making "Tang dynasty" actually correct) and an unaspirated one was written d. Likewise, an unaspirated p was now written b, and so that's why Beijing starts with a b.
As for king becoming jing, that was a Chinese pronunciation shift, not a European one. The letter k has not changed in pronunciation much in over 2000 years.
> The British called the capital of China "Peking"
Also worth noting, a lot of slightly "off" spellings/pronunciations of Chinese are just transliteration problems.
Basically, if some other country (like China) has words not in your language, that don't even have a "correct English spelling", because that country doesn't use an English alphabet, better yet doesn't even use a phonetic alphabet,
then all the "English spellings" of those words are just someone coming up with their best attempt to write something that tells English language speakers "it sounds like this."
Now, someone important at some point will try to come up with a whole system that doesn't JUST spell out words, but spells out in general "ok if it has this sound, we'll spell it like THIS."
Way back when, some British guys, a Mr. Wade and a Mr. Giles, came up with a system like that, and it caught on, and the world (or the English, which close enough) adopted the "Wade-Giles" system of spelling Chinese words.
Unfortunately, Wade-Giles honestly isn't that great. It has some spellings that don't do a great job of telling you what the words actually sound like. Which is why many years later someone came out with a newer (IMO better system, Pin-Yin)
But some examples of weird spelling,
A sound the most English speakers would associated with B they chose to use P, thus "BeiJing" being mis-transliterated as "PeiKing"
Another infamous one, the sound most English speaks would associated with "Ch" or maybe a Soft Q, Wade Giles chose a Ts. They also chose a T to represent what most modern speakers would associated more with a medium D.
Thus "TsingTao" beer, brewed in a place that is actually spelled QingDao and both the beer and place are more accurately pronounced as "CHing-Daow".
Also on that same Hard T should be a medium D, that's why the Rap group "Wu Tang" clan is named after the kung fu (gung-fu) movie representation of the "Wu Tang" temple that should actually sound more like "Oo Dang"
Thanks for taking the time to share all that. More recently, an infamous chap was called Osama...and near the end of his life, the news began calling him Usama.
Same with Khadaffi/Gudaffi
A small distinction, but it reflects the difficulty in translating a foreign name into english...
Interesting note about that, because Arabic presents that same transliteration issue, a lot of U.S. units working in Middle Eastern countries had to pass out a standardized "you will spell names like this" guidance.
Because there was nothing keeping Soldier 1 from spelling a name Mohommad, and Soldier 2 from spelling it Muhammad, and then when the guy showed up on a base to look for a job, or clear security, whatever, Soldier 2 wouldn't be able to find "Muhammad" in the computer system, and the databases would be all messed up.
I knew Google was going to be successful when I typed in a search for a word that I wasn't sure how to spell, and one option was "did you mean XYZ?"
We still call it Pekin in Polish
same in spanish! pekín
Pequim in Portuguese!
Beijing means North Capital in Chinese.
Thanks! I didn't know that.
Beiping/Peiping was also a name used for Beijing in the early to mid 1900s.
Thanks!
Well usually they just don't. Most common origin for country names is "we heard that our neighbour call it this way so we just accepted it" and "they wrote their name down but we are not sure how to pronounce it so we will just guess"
There is no They making up languages. They didn’t come up with words for countries. They are not deciding how to spell words, or making up grammar rules. They is just the users of the language doing what they can to share meaning.
Sometimes it is after the tribe or area in the country that was the most familiar/closest to the country naming it. Like Germany being called 'Saksa' in Finnish because of the contact to the Saxons.
An example from the US is the Anasazi, a long gone people in the Southwest. When the Navajo came down from (what is now) Canada in the 1400s and 1500s, they referred to the people that already lived there as "ancient enemy" or "anasazi" in the Navajo language. The descendants of the Anasazi, the modern-day pueblo peoples, prefer to call them "Ancestral Puebloan".
In Polish, the name for Italy is related to the word hair, and the name for Germany is derived from niemi ludzie, which translates to people of unintelligible speech.
Lol, in Russian we also refer to Germans as mutes.
I can just imagine my ancestors at some point:
Hey Ivan, who are those people across that river?
Fucked if I know, Vasily, they're mutes!
>In Polish, the name for Italy is related to the word hair
Please tell me you're joking. The name in reality comes from the Celtic tribe known as Volcae ("Wolkowie" in Polish), originating from present-day southeastern France.
Makes little sense, I agree.
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Japan in japanese is Nihon.
The origin of why we call it Japan comes from Marco Polo who heard the chinese call it 日本 (Riben), pronounced as Zu-Pang, which translate losely to « the sun’s origin », as Japan is west of China and Japan is where the sun rise first.
I really wish that we could get rid of this silliness. If I as an English speaker say "Deutschland" or "ParEE" (Paris) people look at me strangely, but those are the actual names as spoken by the locals. At least with Beijing, the Chinese Government corrected how it was translated into English, to give a pronunciation that is closer to the actual Chinese pronunciation, than the old "Peking".
New Zealand was named by Dutch explorers who “found” the country - and named it after the Zeeland region in the Netherlands. It was “Nova Zeelandia”. Māori named their country Aotearoa meaning “land of the long white cloud”. It’s often called “Aotearoa New Zealand” as one now.
A lot of country names is just a variation of 'Our Land/The Land'. So what do you call another place when that's what you call yours? You have to use a different name than what they call themselves.
Sometimes it's when people came and asked 'what is this place?' and the people there said 'I don't understand'. So now that's the name of the place (Yucatan).
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Phonetics, at least in Ireland the names of places and people in English are just phonetic gibberish that sounds broadly like the Irish words which actually mean something
There's tons of ways it can happen really. For starters in many cases a country's "global" name, in English or other languages, is dictated by the country itself and is just the native name of the country. For example Turkey recently demanded that it is referred to as Turkiye because they didn't like the fact that the name was the same as the bird. At least in all official diplomatic/academic/informational contexts, this has to be observed.
Some countries are named after their people, who had names as loosely defined ethnic groups long before modern day countries and borders were a thing (France/Britain/Germany for example).
Some times a country may have multiple different names in multiple different languages. It really depends where each language "got it from". Depending on various cultural and historical contexts a language may take a country's name and other words as loanwords from another language that introduced them to it. For example the Romans and Greeks were well travelled peoples, or held vast territories, and had writing and record keeping systems as well as languages that were spread far and wide due to their influence, so for many languages things like region names may be loaned from Latin or Greek. In the case of Japan they were a closed off nation and mostly came in contact with neighboring countries until European trade companies made their way there, so many words and place names in Japanese are loaned from English for example.
It's also affected by the intricacies of each different language. Some times names mean something in their native language and they're translated etymologically in other languages, so the end result sounds completely different but means the same, or the name is phonetically adapted to the other languages but due to differences in writing systems and spelling it may sound similar, but still different.
Basically, there's tons of different ways something like a country name may be adopted into a language, and the study of the origin of words themselves is tricky by itself since some words can very easily be traced back centuries while other have a very hazy and confusing history, so really there's no rule for coming up with country names in other languages, you have to examine it case by case, as in per language and per country name in said language.
In the case of Japan in English there's various theories, none concrete though. This article illustrates the issue a bit, while also providing a possible origin
>The origin of the name Japan is not certain, but researchers say it probably came from the Malayan ″Japung″ or the Chinese ″Riben,″ meaning roughly land of the rising sun.
Historians say the Japanese called their country Yamato in its early history, and they began using Nippon around the seventh century. Nippon and Nihon are used interchangeably as the country’s name.
In general the names of countries and regions in different languages is a product of the history of the world itself. War, Empires, Trade, have all impacted this throughout the ages.
I used to wonder this when I was little.
My partner is French. It’s recently been annoying me that in UK we don’t pronounce Paris ‘Pa-reeee’ like the French do. It’s their name, why are we not saying it like them. The same for them with London and Londres.
I’m all for saying it the correct way, we are after all in the future now, we can correct these things.
But saying ‘Pa-reee’ for Paris just sounds pretentious, so I don’t.
Fun fact. The name a country gives itself is an endonym, and the foreign name is an exonym.
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It's somewhat tied to whomever is making contact, mapping the area, etc. Sometimes they makes stuff up or just name it after the city (probably asked "what do you call this place?"
Germany comes from a town in Deutschland.
Taiwan was called Formosa until quite recently, named ilha Formosa (beautiful island) by Portugese explorers.
Japan calls itself Nippon or Nihon, but the Portugese learned of Japan from the Chinese who would pronounce the same written characters "cipangu" or the Malay who would say, "Japang".
In China, the US is called Mei Guo or "beautiful country".
England in Ying Guo, which sounds pretty close.
San Francisco is Jiu Jin Shan or "old gold mountain"
>Germany comes from a town in Deutschland.
Huh? Germany comes from the name Romans used for area north of Rhine, Germania.
Thanks - I knew it was something like that.
All good. Etymology for different versions of names fo Germany are all over the place.
>San Francisco is Jiu Jin Shan or "old gold mountain"
Was. The current translation is "San Fan Shi" or "San Fran City".
Canada is from a Huron or Iroquois word "Kanata" meaning "settlement". Basically the Europeans thought the settlement where they met was the entire territory.
It was Marco Polo (and his contemporaries) who heard something akin to “yit pun kok” and mapped it to “cipangu”.
“mei guo/mei kok” is likely more related to how “America” was first transliterated into “mei li jian/mei lei keen” rather than for expressing beauty, although that choice is reflected in the written character :)
America (the continent) was named after Amerigo Vespucci.
marco!
👕
ZevVeli t1_j6eqabi wrote
Usually the name of the nation is based on a specific quality of the nation or a translation of the name that they have. For example the name in Japanese for Japan is Nippon which means "Sun's Origin" the name for it in Chinese is 日本 (Rìbĕn) which also means Sun's origin, now Europe traded more with China than Japan so they asked "What is the name of those Islands to the East?" They said "哪个是日本。" (That is the Sun's Origin) So the Italian traders came back and pronounced RìBĕn as Shippan, which the English speakers heard as Japan.
Generally speaking the closer in root languages and more phenotypes the two languages have in common the closer the names will be together. Additionally the more modern the country's founding the more likely that they are to be similar. It should be noted however that changing a language can be seen as a political statement.