I kek'd

I feel attacked /s

"It can be driven off of anything, But it sCaLes beTteR with moRe pOwEr."

Surely, when you get amplifier it will sound better right? Surely.

I think the question here is, why do you own seven pairs of headphones, but no amp?

LMFAO

You jest, but some smartphone outputs are really bad.

Typical story of getting broke for nothing :))

It really puzzles me whenever someone in this sub says that their headphones sound really great plugged directly in their phones, laptops, or motherboards (the exception would be if the motherboard has a built amp). I mean even a 32 ohm DT770 would sound miles better when you amp it.

Exactly

Why are you being sarcastic? Many audiophile headphones benefit from amplification.

Obviously, but if you don't like headphone, giving more power won't make you love it.

For example, when someone says that they didn't enjoyed HD600 and there comes guy in comments saying that you need $1000 Dac and Amp to power them.

Well of course, but it's a good possibility that it might as well.

What if the first guy was running the HD600 or some planar headphone off his phone without knowing about impedances? Surely a decent budget dac amp would be a good improvement over his phone.

Yes, I agree with you, I was being sarcastic about people who make others believe that you need some crazy high end amplifier to run budget headphones.

Oh definitely don't need those

I chuckled

I'm glad

Better than owning a $200 headphone and $1000 dac

Because plenty don't change at all, there's nothing confusing about it.

Plenty of devices have a very low output impedance. Assuming it has enough power to drive what you want, they wouldn't sound much different if it's even remotely modern.

Amps have a purpose, but it isn't really what most people seem to think they are for.

hey! i only paid 699...

^(Subjectivists hate him!)

Don't forget that balanced cable too

[deleted]

Shadows of Rose memes on the rise, invest!

Loved the DLC

You do know that any sound output has a buikd in amp right?

I’m starting to think this isn’t sarcastic 💀

I thought /u/cirrusblau was being sarcastic. :x

DT770 do not need an amp, do they ? I've never tried them.
But my HD58x do not need one for sure... only if louder == better...

[deleted]

Doesn't mean it's good enough/powerful enough to drive power hungry headphones such as some planars. Most budget external DAC amps nowadays are still better that those that are built into the laptop/phone/desktop.

I’m just going to say this. If your headphone gets loud enough on a source, with some headroom, then any amp upgrade will not make the headphone sound better (or better enough that the upgrade would make you like it more).

Saying that a headphone that sounds mediocre can be fixed by an amp when the problem isn’t the volume makes no sense when all modern amps are made to be linear.

If my headphones get loud enough out of my laptop, I'd really like to know what the justification is for getting an amp. I hear arguments like "you'll get more out of your headphones" or "it scales better", but I'm never told concretely what's better about amping my headphones. How does it change the sound?

Apple dongle is enough

No cap

crinacle said so, and he is always right

Upgrading to Thx AAA amp gives me insight in real sound signature of my headphones. I think it is good thing to have reference amp.

The ief neutral with sub-bass boost tuner

This is the best explanation I've heard.

Yea i remember those days and i bought the Audio GD NFB 11 from efin china lmao

That guy has almost single handedly destroyed truth in headphones. Just another grifting pos on the internet.

Don't forget to also buy $$$$ cable and dac.

What does it even mean?

honestly i don't even have a lot of insight in what crinacle says, sometimes its sound critique and sometimes, like in case of the "you don't need an amp" video, i know where he is coming from, but clearly he just gets the camera rolling and starts talking.

thing is sometimes i want to give good advice myself and it hurts when somebody uses a link to a crinacle video to refute something you say.

That's nonsense.

I mean the explanation is so badly out of touch, that it will be a complete bullshit for anyone remotely understanding the principles of amplification.

How so? I'm not pretending to be an expert, but I thought it seemed more plausible than some of the other claims that are often made. What does he get wrong specifically?

Yep. He's just talking out of his ass. It's laughable.

There isn't such thing as voltage swings being abrupt or smooth. The amplifier amplifies the signal that is fed to it.

If you run it within the headroom range, then it will be the same. If you will overdrive the amp, it will compress and sag. In more extreme cases you will be able to hear audible distortion (like in guitar amps).

If the source sounds loud enough at 80% of the volume, then you don't need an amp. If it's lacking in volume and you crank it full, then it's probably a time to buy an amp.

You will not hear a difference in a blind test between a hi-end and budget amplifier unless there's some DSP or filtering involved. If you have any of those expensive amps, you can sell them right now unless you're emotionally attached to them and make you feel good.

I'm amazed at how many people are buying into that bullshit. Like I'm not an engineer and my grades weren't good at school, but I can smell bullshit right away.

Damn. Bro is qualified to answer the question

Lmk if someone answers you!!

Impedence ≠ SPL

Loud enough ≠ enough power

Great DLC, also that made me smile.

Loved it

Or it could be that you just don't like the 'house sound'. Or got a defective piece. Or need time to adjust mentally. Or the 'phones need time to 'burn in', as people call it, which sometimes takes days, perhaps weeks.

This dlc made me realize Village isn’t as scary in third person

What was the TL;DR of his video? Does the apple dongle work well enough for everything?

nothing i said had anything to do with the fact that impedance and sensitivity are importantly distinct

and while we can argue about if a headphone loud enough with decent “to loud” headroom is still underpowered, you can’t in good faith say that if you dislike an headphone, a linear amp with more power would change the sound enough to sway that opinion

Me with my 100 ohm output impedance amp: 🗿

​

​

Amp in question is Beyerdynamic A20

for iems, sure. but not for some full size headphones.

i guess it means the headphones sound "fuller" or something?

yes, but he does mention that there are fringe cases, doesn't mention that there are loads of fringe cases though

Me browsing head-fi forums: this $2000 amp is way better than my other $2000 amp for my favorite and only headphones, the HD6XX

Well I know Reddit crowd is more on the "if it's loud enough then it's good enough". And I don't know the exact science behind it but this is my finding:

Hifiman R7DX = Sounds about the same on any source, doesn't scale much with higher gear.

Denon D2000/D5200 = easy to drive headphone, sounds pretty good on anything but sounds better on my Violectric V200. But generally most dongle dac seems to be able to power it decently well.

Mad Dog = I can definitely get it "loud enough" but sounds absolutely TERRIBLE on my beloved Dragonfly Red (my favourite dongle dac) which output 2 vrms. On O2/SDAC high gain it sounds pretty good though.

So I would say depending on headphone, easy to drive headphone will scale a little, but hard to drive headphone will definitely scale more. But it really depending on headphone.

There is no 1 answer for all, just have to try it out yourself. But I do find people who swear by "loud enough is enough" tend to read Reddit / ASR but have never physically tried higher gear. So they've listened with eyes but haven't listened with ear yet.

The way I see it is that Tesla and Civic driving at 40 km/h will both measure at 40 km/h speed. But HOW it got to that 40 km/h speed will be vastly different.

Again, it depends on headphone so it's not a yes/no type of answer.

apart from powering the headphones it also adjust the sound slightly which helps with richer bass or finer highs. Its not necessarily about volume, loud doesnt always mean good , If you are happy with your setu no need to change but if you want to try something new then I would say get an amp. My favorite so far has been the Fiio Q5s

If your headphones can be powered by a $200 amp but need a $2000 amp to "sound good", your headphones suck.

Yer right🤣

The idea of a headphone "scaling" with gear is that the headphone will sound "better".

For example, compare an hd6x0 from a dongle and an amp like the Magni3+ and you'll see that the bass sounds tighter, less boomy.

Some headphones scale more than others, for 99% of headphones you don't really see that scaling happening much, and most you'll need is an apple dongle.

True.

Ain’t nothin wrong with getting a good dac/amp and going through the headphones progression. At least one variable will be fixed.

Based

Something is wrong w/ this mindset. I see it akin to those who buy gym clothes before being "worthy" to spend the money, and same with vehicle modifications.

The time and money are better put elsewhere first: on the thing that actually gives you performance (yourself with working out, the vehicle for modifications, and the headphone in this case.)

You guys do you though. If everyone was like me the world's economy would've tanked decades ago lol

You overthink it a bit, pal. Relax and don’t make assumptions on a single sentence. Happy listening.

It might sound better at certain frequencies, depending on the headphones.

I collect vintage headphones (so generally higher impedance, and often rather low sensitivity). Most of them are alright even with a modern on-board sound card, but a few aren't: in that case, the bass is either muddy, or outright missing, and sibilance tends to be worse.

My desktop amp is some $150 Chinese DAC&amp combo, Audinst mx1 iirc. It's been enough for everything but a pair of AKG cans.

I'll always be overthinking; it's why I get paid :')

If the sound is less boomy and more tighter, then there's probably a filter at around 100-300 Hz region.

If you will tone down that frequency range, you will have less "dirt" in the sound, especially in rock and metal where there is a lot of distorted guitars and basses. Don't overdo it because you'll end up with no kick in the lower register.

If you get satisfactory volume I don't think there's any reason to add an amp specifically, but an external dac/amp combo could still be beneficial since you can have a better quality dac that's also isolated from the other circuitry within the laptop (which can add noise). It depends on the laptop though, some have quite good sound cards that are relatively well isolated whereas others I've used have sounded crappy without an external dac/amp.

What I mean is if you're hearing a difference between the amps, you're either strongly believe that this difference exists (placebo) or there's filtering going on.

Just add some equalization to it and call the day.

At least is an Argon.

I feel like an apple dongle with a 4 pin xlr connector would be a funny audiophile product. Ridiculous, overkill, and I want it!

Go to your local audio shop and ask to try out some amps. This way you can decide for yourself. You might hear a big difference or you may find it hard to notice. No two sets of ears are identical.

I’m happy with the headphone amp built into my separates integrated amp, it sounds way clearer than listening directly from my CD player or IPad and the bass feels fuller and punchier. Personally I don’t hear enough of an improvement from anything I’ve tried compared with my current setup to justify dropping cash on a dedicated amp but to each their own. Maybe you’ll find one that makes sense for you.

When it comes to vehicle mods, i would do brakes, suspension etc before increasing "performance" tbh

I'm sorry but i must dissagree. My mdr 1am2 sounds a whole lot tighter on the balanced output of my qudelix 5k (it has more power, and 2 dacs vs 1.) It's like listening to a completely different pair

There's dsp/filter in that amp.

Yes which is also in the basic 3.5 output no?

What?

You can change filters regardless of output jack

I can assume that there's no completely "clean" option.

No, but all the options are shared by both outputs

You seem to have missed my points.

I was talking about the difference between amplifiers, not the filters and balanced inputs.

Then idk what you mean. All i mean to say is that there's a difference from the balaced output. Idk what that comes from, but i would guess the higher output

You can read my 2 last big comments (in the profile). Hope it'll be clear:)

Just did a little edit

Yep. My HD660s don’t sound very full through my pc. The cheap e10k is enough though, so you really don’t need much, just more than directly plugging it in a headphone jack. May upgrade to a k5 later but happy for now.

Yep. My HD660s don’t sound very full through my pc. The cheap e10k is enough though, so you really don’t need much, just more than directly plugging it in a headphone jack. May upgrade to a k5 later but happy for now.

Yep. My HD660s don’t sound very full through my pc. The cheap e10k is enough though, so you really don’t need much, just more than directly plugging it in a headphone jack. May upgrade to a k5 later but happy for now.

I’m going to be honest with you, ignore basically everyone who tells you to get expensive amplifiers or DAC. You really truly don’t need them. There are, however, a few benefits to getting a amplifier and DAC which I will list below for you.

If set up correctly, the sound you get out of them is isolated from the other noisy parts of your PC, which is ideal because you will get less distortion overall. This distortion can come in many different shapes, and sizes, and in some cases this distortion can be terribly bad if you have a slow PC. There is something called DPC, latency, which, if too high can lead to some pretty annoying, pops, and cracks that constantly play in your audio stream, But usually it Hass to be pretty bad for something like that to happen. If you have even a remotely, decent gaming, PC, or a remotely decent laptop, you’ll be perfectly fine. I can imagine you would probably see this happening on some cheap Best Buy, Toshiba laptops, or something along those lines. In other cases, you experience, crackling and pops, it may be an indication that your amplifier, or dock is not properly set up.

Which leads me to my next point, getting an external amplifier, and DAC allows you to properly set up your listening experience, compared to using an onboard system. I see this topic debated online from time to time, so take this with a grain of salt or do your own research to see what conclusion you come to, But from what I’ve heard reducing the volume in the Windows, operating system, and other operating systems reduces the bit depth leading to a hissing or audible noise floor. I think back to when you were in high school when you used some cheap iambs and you heard that annoying hissing sound while there was no sound playing, and that’s what that is. This is a debated topic though, because some people online do mention that windows actually outputs sound at 32 bit internally, so this may not be an issue anymore and may have been a problem with the older windows, operating systems, but generally the consensus you see online is that you should get an amplifier or DAC and if you do, you can raise your windows volume to 100% and do finer adjustments with your amplifier itself. I’ve actually messaged amplifier and the AC manufacturers and this is exactly what they tell you to do every time to get the most out of the hardware is to raise your windows volume to 100% and reduce the amplifier volume.

Another important detail to keep in mind is that on windows, there are a couple of settings you want to change in order to get the best experience out of your external amplifier and DAC to give you the biggest difference. You’ll want to write click your volume control button on the bottom right of your taskbar and had into the sound control panel. After entering this menu, off to the right hand side, you’ll see another hyperlink button you can click that says sound control panel again. Click this, heading to playback devices, right click your DAC, head into properties, make sure that the enhancements are all turned off by going into the enhancements tab, and toggling that button that says disable, all enhancements, Head to your levels, tab, and max that volume slider out and reduce the volume on your amplifier, and then head into the advanced tab and set your sampling rate and a bit depth to 44.1 kHz with 16 bit. This is because if you have it set to 48 kHz or higher, most content online is 44.1, so you’ll be getting some nasty recompression going on. This also seems to be the case with services like Spotify.

So, in conclusion, expensive amplifiers, and DAC do absolutely nothing, but in my opinion, you should absolutely purchase an external amplifier or DAC even if it’s a cheap one. A nice cheap hybrid amplifier, and the AC will give you the biggest bang for your buck, and the most noticeable difference compared to getting a super expensive amplifier, or DAC. If you already have one, and it has the features that that you need, there’s absolutely no point in getting one more expensive. it is important to know, however, that if your headphones don’t get loud enough with the power that your amplifier outputs, then you should get an amplifier or a new pair of headphones for sure. But as far as sound quality goes, it’s absolute bogus. Get yourself a nice, decent amplifier, and the AC or even a highbred and set it up how I told you in this comment and ignore it after that. But again, I do encourage you to look this stuff up yourself as well to fact, check some of it because I have seen it debated online in the past. All I know is that I’ve spoken with amplifier and the AC manufacturers about this as well, and they themselves also admit that some of it is bogus, but as far as setting up your amplifier and the AC the comments I listed here above, seem to be the general consensus of what you should do to get the best sound out of your system. You’ll avoid crackling and hissing, you’ll have a pretty, damn good noise floor, and it will give you the peace of mind, knowing that you’re getting the best of the best as far as sound quality goes.

Let me know if any of this doesn’t make sense and I’ll be happy to explain further. Also, sorry for any typing errors. I’m currently using Siri to dictate this on my phone.

Welll. In that case. How about overthinking that thought in another direction. What if that is like buying super specialized gym gear when you only started lifting. It won’t help you get stronger it might actually prevent you from building your technique. Your technique is your audio source and headphones are your specialized gear. Just another/ alternative way to take this thought.

Just sounds better idk why and franky don't care

Output impedance is one possibility. It becomes a problem when it is either frequency dependent, or if the headset's impedance is frequency dependent, as it adds an extra resistance that lowers the voltage seen by the headset in the parts of the frequency response where its own impedance is also low. Good gear has roughly 1 ohm output impedance or less, where it is considered no longer to matter.

This guy sounds like he is totally wrong, but he is roughly correct in that you need low output impedance amplifier to drive variable impedance loads correctly. I am parsing this is what he is talking about, though he doesn't use the right technical terms. He talks about "voltage swings" and "amplifier power", and these are pretty awful ways to describe the problem. Low output impedance is unrelated to having lots of power, or "high" voltage in output side.

Audio is not actually demanding application for electronics. Circuits can switch states at gigahertz rates, and audio is very, very slow signal in comparison, so electronics can trivially follow and reproduce it without ever having to care about real high frequency stuff such as signal path lengths. Power requirements of headsets are also trivial, usually milliwatts or so before they get so loud that your hearing is at risk, and this is still less than would be used by a standby LED of a random home appliance. The voltages needed are similarly on the low side, for a typical lower impedance headset it is probably less than 0.2 V, and this translates to current demands that are a few milliamps, so again, barely anything. Therefore, good enough amplifiers do not need to be large or expensive, but more like finger-nail sized and cost a few bucks to put together. The existence of these external usb soundcards that are often called DAC dongles (but they actually can have dozens of milliwatts of output power) is the proof of what I am saying here.

Then what explains the difference most people report between solid state and OTL amps with the HD 600?

I'm sure some of it can be attributed to placebo and justifying the investment in expensive gear, of course. But enough people who otherwise know what they're talking about seem to be convinced, so it's hard to dismiss entirely. I'm not saying you have to spend thousands, but there must be at least some differences between solid state and tube amps.

Are you saying that in this particular case, the sound from the 600 at equal volume would be completely indistinguishable when plugged into either a JDS Atom or something like a Bottlehead Crack?

Mine makes headphones sound more bloated than most razer headsets.

No, Crinical is just one guy. The DAC matters.

From 50 years of being a music lover and high end HiFi guy, all of this matters.

A good DAC drives headphones better and resolves better. It is just a fact Minimum of an Audioquest Dragonfly Red, and up from there is where I recommend to begin.

>Then what explains the difference most people report between solid state and OTL amps with the HD 600?

Output impedance.

What specific effect does that have on sound quality at similar volume levels? How does that account for warmth, clarity, and other characteristics that people frequently associate with different amp types?