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Trash_Panda_Leaves t1_ja4ofy8 wrote

It says Ningrisu is specifically springtime thunder- is there anyone who has and sources or more detail on that? Why spring specifically- was there other thunder gods for different seasons?

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Gloomy_Possession-69 t1_ja4u7dv wrote

Replying to [deleted] (#2,033,135)

You've got your timelines quite mixed!

The first evidence of the Sumerian religion is about 6500 years old. The first evidence of the old Norse religion is about 2500 years old. However...

From what I understand, you can trace the origins of Thor to the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) mythology, to the hammer-wielding lightning and thunder god Perkwunos, which also is about 6500 years old.

Despite this, it is currently widely believed that Sumeria and PIE did not mix mythologies, so the connection between their thunder gods is not there (at least according to our current understanding).

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MeatballDom t1_ja4vfdh wrote

This isn't 4chan. Stop with the lazy edgelord trolling

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14th_Eagle t1_ja4yndy wrote

Is this at all related to the PIE Skyfather?

−9

random2187 t1_ja4z3of wrote

Replying to LieverRoodDanRechts (#2,029,829)

The actual translation from the inscriptions on foundation bricks and nails is “e-ninnu-an-im-mi^mushen -babbar-babbar-ra-ne” where e is temple, ninny is fifty, an-im-mi^mushen is the anzu bird (associated with storms and chaos), babbar is white, and ra-ne are grammatical elements meaning his. So the name of the temple literally translates to “his temple of fifty white anzu birds.” But that’s kind of a mouthful so most people just use enninu which is the temple-fifty portion or call it the white thunderbird temple which is the anzu-babbar part. Currently in grad school learning Sumerian and we got to hold and translate some of the foundation pegs with that inscription!

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foospork t1_ja4zzr9 wrote

Replying to [deleted] (#2,034,792)

I browse reddit on mobile. Most of these articles are unreadable on mobile.

I assume a lot of folks are like me and hope that some kind computer user has scraped the article into the comments.

Of course, everyone should have the sense to refrain from commenting when they have no knowledge of what’s actually in the article.

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random2187 t1_ja50fv2 wrote

Replying to mindless_chooth (#2,034,659)

Probably not since the Sumerian pantheon is from well before Indo-European migration which spread the those figures throughout Eurasia, though there are synchronisms later in Mesopotamia history and at least one inscription which directly invoked Agni. There’s also a very loose theory that Harappan/Indus River Valley Civilization and the Sumerians were related, though there is no real evidence to back this up as of yet. There’s currently an ancient dna project testing if the IRVC and Sumerians shared ancestry, and if that’s confirmed then there is a possibility of synchronisms

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Icy-Conflict6671 t1_ja513gz wrote

Thats cool af. Wonder what kind of ancient relics lay inside

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Muggaraffin t1_ja5572g wrote

Replying to IAmtheHullabaloo (#2,036,307)

It is weird to think what people must have made of the sun back then, or even just a few centuries back. Before they even understood the concept of space, and instead just knew of the 'above us'. And like you said, angry eye ball. Just some large bright white hole in the sky that hurts to look at. Imagining a kind of Sauron figure makes total sense :/

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Muggaraffin t1_ja55ili wrote

Replying to [deleted] (#2,033,135)

Honestly, as cool as Nordic mythology is, lately I've found Sumerian and Mesopotamian mythology far more interesting (or equally as interesting at least). I really recommend reading up on it, it's good fun

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jamesp420 t1_ja59sac wrote

Replying to random2187 (#2,036,088)

That is super cool. Thats also a really cool temple name. It's astonishing to me that after all this time, Sumerian can still be taught, learned and read. I truly wish I had known about this kind of thing when deciding my life trajectory as a teen. Do the inscriptions have any more information about the god? I've read a bit on Sumerian history and mythology, but I don't recall seeing much of anything about Ningirsu.

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random2187 t1_ja5eihl wrote

Replying to jamesp420 (#2,038,151)

I mean the only reason we can translate it is because the Akkadians (who really started migrating into the region from the Levant ~2300 BCE) made these long lexical lists so that they could learn Sumerian too. We were able to decipher Akkadian and then Akkadian allowed us to decipher Sumerian, though there's still a lot of work to do/being done and our understanding of Sumerian is far from perfect.

There's definitely a lot of information on the gods including their myths, how they were worshiped, what purviews and symbols they were associated with, though not from the foundation deposits I'm talking about. Those are really basic and the one I'm referencing just reads "For Ningirsu, strong hero of Enlil, Gudea, lord of Lagas, has made the old things appear splendidly, he has built his temple-of-fifty-white-anzu-birds for him, he has returned it to its place for him." If you're interested in Ningirsu's association with the anzu bird, and his epithet hero of Enlil, and really his main myth, here's a half way decent translation https://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/myths/texts/retellings/theftdestiny.htm

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me_irl_irl_irl_irl t1_ja5fv6c wrote

I honestly wonder how much random religious stuff we'll keep randomly discovering. Throughout civilization it seems we've just always searched for some explanation of nature, and these are the ways it manifested. Probably many more weird ancient religious tributes that have no link to modern religion that are yet to be discovered

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Devil-sAdvocate t1_ja5hbmt wrote

> The Sumerians were possibly the oldest civilization in the world and the first to establish religion and a code of law.

Other firsts include: invented the first form of writing, the first known number system with place value was the Mesopotamian base 60 system, the first to develop the turning wheel- which is a device which allowed them to mass-produce pottery, and they invented the plow.

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jamesp420 t1_ja5hk5a wrote

Replying to random2187 (#2,038,986)

I guess it's no small blessing that we have those Akkadian translations then. They sound like something akin to a Mesopotamian "Rosetta Stone" in function. And awesome, thank you! I'm slightly familiar with Enlil at least, though only in passing, as well as the Anzu, but I don't know this story. Much appreciated.

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random2187 t1_ja5hoit wrote

Replying to psycholepzy (#2,039,354)

We really can't say since there's no way to know how the original speakers pronounced things. We can somewhat confidently restore what Akkadian sounded like due to comparative semetic studies and their syllabic spelling in writing. However, Sumerian is a language isolate with no known related languages for comparison, their spelling was mostly logographic (think chinese, a single symbol representing an idea), and the only way we know the associated sounds is through Akkadian who didn't have the same sounds to be able to accurately represent how Sumerian was pronounced. For example it's believed that Sumerian had several o sounds that Akkadian is simply unable to render, and instead get represented as the same u sounds despite the variety that originally existed. You'll usually hear it pronounced with a soft g today but that has nothing to do with how it was originally pronounced

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thatirishguy0 t1_ja5mjv7 wrote

This is amazing. The fact yha5bwe are still finding out about their civilization and finding their remains.

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Unicorny_as_funk t1_ja5mkry wrote

Very interesting. Wish the article hadn’t ended so abruptly.

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psycholepzy t1_ja5mo3l wrote

Replying to random2187 (#2,039,574)

Might it be related to "Judea"?

I'm barely a hobbyist, but I have fallen in love with the etymology of religious words, place names, and iconography. It would be wild to find connections between Hadad or Baal and an equivalent Sumerian/Akkadian diety.

False etymologies and debunkings notwithstanding, it's an area that really excites me.

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ManannanMacLir74 t1_ja5nqqy wrote

Replying to Devil-sAdvocate (#2,039,510)

Many scholars actually argue for simultaneous evolution of both Egypt and Mesopotamia and no Mesopotamia had contemporaries so they weren't the first at all to have a religion which is absolutely absurd to say.But there is evidence for a divergent evolution especially when it comes to writing between Mesopotamia and Egypt. I keep bringing up Egypt because it's the oldest contemporary civilization to Mesopotamia

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NO_SPACE_B4_COMMA t1_ja5pujd wrote

Seven shadows cast. Seven fates foretold. Yet at the end of the broken path lies death, and death alone!

−8

assassinshogun307 t1_ja5q6l5 wrote

Replying to Devil-sAdvocate (#2,039,510)

>the first to develop the turning wheel- which is a device which allowed them to mass-produce pottery

I misread this as mass-produce poetry and I spend half a minute trying to figure out how a turning wheel could make people come up with multiple poems lol

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HermanCainsGhost t1_ja5qxjz wrote

Replying to be0wulfe (#2,040,808)

Because 60 has a LOT of factors that can go into it.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15... etc

It's the reason why there are 60 minutes in an hour (and ultimately why there are 60 seconds in a minute, though that's a later development). It's also ultimately why we have 24 hours in a day (they had 12 for daylight hours, which ALSO has a lot of factors, it was eventually doubled).

A lot of time keeping stuff is due to them

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Itsamesolairo t1_ja5tqpo wrote

Replying to random2187 (#2,038,986)

> who really started migrating into the region from the Levant ~2300 BCE

I think you're getting them mixed up with the Amorites here.

While calling anything "Akkadian" pre-Sargon is arguably problematic, we have texts from Mesopotamia in Old Akkadian dating as far back as the 25th century, and Sargon (who was native to Mesopotamia) founded the Akkadian Empire around 2334 BCE.

Furthermore, AFAIK, there's no indication that speakers of old Akkadian originated in the Levant. I'm fairly certain the dominant theory is that they were native to Mesopotamia, while the Amorites did immigrate to Mesopotamia from the Levant.

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darwinfish86 t1_ja5uohh wrote

Replying to Trash_Panda_Leaves (#2,034,046)

In Sumerian mythology Ningursu's father was the storm god Enlil, so that is likely the connection. That said many of these deities shifted names and roles over the two thousand years or so that they were actively worshipped, and often took on different meanings in different places at different times.

The gods had a lot of overlap in responsibilities; it was not at all like a Dungeons & Dragons pantheon where every deity had a set and specific set of duties and powers. Gods could be as broad and seemingly universal as Enlil (god of storms) or Inanna (goddess of love and war), or they could have very narrow associations, like Enbilulu, god of irrigation. Some gods were servants or family members of other gods, like Ninshubur, Inanna's personal servant/vizier.

Some gods lost their original identity and became syncretized with another deity, like Asaruludu, who was originally the city of Kuara's patron deity but later became merely one of the fifty names of Marduk, patron god of the city of Babylon.

The religion of Sumeria and Mesopotamia is fascinating and deep. I just got interested in it myself when I started building a D&D campaign set in the ancient bronze age. I went down that rabbit hole and still haven't crawled out of it.

Ancient polytheistic religions didn't really work the way movies, pop culture, video games, and fantasy has keyed us to understand them. For a really in-depth overview of how ancient polytheism worked I'd highly recommend A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry: Practical Polytheism, a blog by a professional historian.

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Oak_Woman t1_ja5ur6d wrote

Replying to Trash_Panda_Leaves (#2,034,046)

I swear I've read somewhere that certain cultures didn't sow seeds before the first thunderstorm of the year. Or maybe it was from a gardening group I'm a part of? Either way, that might be your answer. Thunderstorms indicate warm air and a season change, meaning it's finally safe to plant.

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Fanfics t1_ja5vesn wrote

why is livescience.com calling this thunder god "mighty" lmao, did they do a study? How are they quantifying that? Is there another thunder god that isn't mighty that we might mix them up with?

−18

random2187 t1_ja5vqum wrote

Replying to psycholepzy (#2,040,500)

That’s a really cool idea but the connection would be really tenuous. Gudea was a single Sumerian king who ruled in Mesopotamia in the 22nd or 21st century and while Mesopotamia did have contact with the Levant for a long time, the name Judah which is the root of Judea is first attested in the Iron Age after the Bronze Age collapse, around the 7th or 8th century BCE. So different cultures and a long time span separating them

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Devil-sAdvocate t1_ja5zdba wrote

Replying to be0wulfe (#2,040,808)

Likely finger counting. The base 60 system likely originated from ancient peoples using the digits on one hand to count.

With the left hand, the left thumb counts up to 3 knuckles on each finger for a total of 12. Then with the right hand, the right thumb counts each additional finger as +12. Five multiplied by 12 equals 60.

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ManannanMacLir74 t1_ja5zhx2 wrote

Replying to tanksforlooking (#2,042,938)

As I've said above watch the video but to give you a bit of context the idea that cuneiform came first or influenced hieroglyphics isn't widely accepted among all scholarship like it was decades ago.The most likely scenario is that the two evolved independently as they're very different and even if cuneiform evolved first it definitely didn't influence hieroglyphics much at all.Even the kingship in Mesopotamia was very different from the Pharaoh's of Egypt for a few reasons. Lastly if I'm not mistaken Egyptian civilization sprang up fully formed first while Mesopotamia was still in warring city states

−1

random2187 t1_ja60ow9 wrote

Replying to Itsamesolairo (#2,041,901)

Just trying to keep the narrative simple, yes there’s Akkadians in Mesopotamia before then but they’re not really in southern Mesopotamia where Sumerian was spoken. I said ~2300 BCE because it depends on what chronology you use, 2334 - 2279 BCE is the middle chronology dates given for Sargons reign but that can vary my +- a century so I tend to give rough centuries for events. You’re right that saying they migrated from the levant is probably a misnomer and I was just basing that on Akkadian being a semetic language, I’m not as deep into the anthropological or linguistic side of scholarship so migration theories aren’t my strong suit. And I should clarify that I’m saying Akkadian presence because it’s only after the rise of the Akkadian empire that semetic speaking people become a strong presence in southern Mesopotamia, whether that’s a migration of them or locals adopting their cultural practices is still up for debate among scholars.

Amorites are arguably first attested in the Ebla archive from the ED period though that’s northern Mesopotamia, and in southern Mesopotamia Naram-Sin claims to have fought Amorites on one of his campaigns. It isn’t until the Ur III period in the 22nd and 21st century, after the 2300 date I gave, that we have evidence of Amorites integrating into Southern Mesopotamia, and of course the famous wall to repel the Amorites

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khinzaw t1_ja61lna wrote

Replying to ManannanMacLir74 (#2,043,126)

None of this means cuneiform didn't come first. Scholarly consensus is that it did, but the degree to which it influenced the development of hieroglyphics is debated but consensus is leaning towards that hieroglyphics are independently formed with the most influence cuneiform could have had being stimulating the formation of a writing system if even that. This is because the oldest known hieroglyphics are younger than cuneiform but seem to have no connection whatsoever to it.

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ManannanMacLir74 t1_ja61xic wrote

Replying to khinzaw (#2,043,610)

There is no evidence cuneiform influenced hieroglyphics why do you all keep parroting outdated scholarship??Yeah that's my whole point both consensus and evidence are now saying both scripts developed independently this is obvious

−5

khinzaw t1_ja622lt wrote

Replying to ManannanMacLir74 (#2,043,682)

>There is no evidence cuneiform influenced hieroglyphics

I didn't say there was.

Your original argument was that it was wrong to say Cuneiform developed first, but then your argument for that was that hieroglyphics developed independently which does not say anything about whether Cuneiform develpped first

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khinzaw t1_ja63k1w wrote

Replying to ManannanMacLir74 (#2,043,764)

Because the oldest known cuneiform is dated to be older than the oldest known hieroglyphics. The earliest Cuneiform is dated back to around 3500 BCE while the earliest Hieroglyphics are dated to around 3400-3200 BCE. Both have some amount of proto-language going earlier but it is unclear how developed they were.

Additionally, Sumerian script has a long evolutionary history that goes back to 8000 BCE that can be traced, while hieroglyphics seem to have sprung into use comparitively suddenly. This is why some scholars say that even if hieroglyphics are a fully independent system, it is possible cuneiform still stimulated that creation of a writing system.

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Yadobler t1_ja64pn7 wrote

Replying to r-reading-my-comment (#2,038,320)

If iraq was like the Asian monsoon countries, then it's the late summer / autumn rains that cause flooding. Springtime tends to be dry and rainfall is appreciated in the spring where it's getting hot

#---------

In southern India, tamil agricultural culture have the following warning: never get married in the month of Aadi

Aadi is about mid July - mid August. Because usually newly weds will consummate on the first night, and a baby comes in end April.

End April is considered the driest weeks. It's spring, not summer, but it's not Monsoon season. Unlike the summer months where rain comes and you have a generally hot and wet season, springtime is dry and having a baby means being tight on well water - bad for the newborn and the new mother.

#---------

Crops that tamil farmers grow, usually rice and sorghum, are usually planted in August (the same Aadi month, also why they say not to marry in Aadi because everyone's busy planting crops). The Monsoon comes and the floodplains are great for the crops that bathe in water. Then they are harvested in January, it's also when Thai pongal is celebrated to thank the weather gods and plowing bulls for the good harvest

#----------

So if an agricultural civilisation living in a place that sees no snow is praying for springtime rainfall, it's probably 2 things:

  1. they need the water for crops that they can't plant after spring

  2. they need the water because all the wells dried up

#---------

This is my educated guess from inductive reasoning of agricultural culture. Take it with a pinch of salt

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Yadobler t1_ja65ibj wrote

Replying to Trash_Panda_Leaves (#2,042,463)

I don't know about these folks but for tamil folks, traditionally the end of July is when they start sowing rice and other crops, before the autumn Monsoon. Then they harvest in January (they don't experience snow in winter, just strong winds)

Springtime was also the driest months, so much so that folks don't marry and consummate in July-August so that they don't give birth at late April where it's hot enough to dry up wells, but not the season for rain clouds and thunderstorms

#-------

So I'd assume if they were praying for springtime rain, it was because of the dry weather, or they needed to plant crops and couldn't wait till late summer.

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TheMelm t1_ja694n7 wrote

Replying to Yadobler (#2,044,224)

Heh you forget how differently people experience something like spring. In Alberta spring is when all the snow starts melting so you get tons of water coming in from the mountains along with rain and everything turns into a swamp. We call it spring breakup when the roads get too muddy and you can't move oil rigs and machinery for a few weeks so work stops.

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5feng t1_ja6buq2 wrote

Indra is the thunder god worship in india and india and iran share something from old times this could be the common link between these ancient cultures.

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vmp916 t1_ja6juw7 wrote

Replying to ManannanMacLir74 (#2,046,737)

How came some say it’s a script while others say it’s not? A representation of a spoken language which in modern day would be script but back then it could mean representation of sounds or meanings behind sounds. How is that not a script?

3

Nonskew2 t1_ja6mquk wrote

Replying to monsantobreath (#2,036,305)

Yes, spring. Before extensive irrigation the rivers would flood and bring nourishing silt, somewhat like the Nile in Egypt but with destructive flooding. I should not just say the rainy season but when warming melting snow in mountains to the north.

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Thrannn t1_ja6nsd1 wrote

Everytime i read about sumerians it breaks my heart to think about all the culture we have lost.

They were much more developed than many people think. Its like looking at an old world that we lost

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2Twospark t1_ja6v31v wrote

Replying to False798 (#2,043,466)

That's how I first learnt about it.

Use your thumb to point/count your other joints in the fingers (including the base) and you can count to 12 on one hand. If you do the same with your other hand you're able to count up to 144 with just two hands.

:O

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Elipses_ t1_ja7gw19 wrote

Huh. Neat.

Hopefully, no group Palmyras this.

0

Uncle_Checkers86 t1_ja7h9k0 wrote

Was the land scape in Iraq different 4,500 years ago than today?

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nonosnoooo t1_ja7kjqe wrote

Replying to TheMelm (#2,045,041)

You missed the part where they said if a bunch of people who never see snow are praying for springtime rainfall - Iraq and southern India don’t get break up lol

Break up is not just about the snow melting in some places, it’s also the frost coming out of the ground

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TheMelm t1_ja7la0x wrote

Replying to nonosnoooo (#2,054,094)

Nah I saw they knew about it the you who was forgetting wasn't them it was a general everyone. And if you really made me think about it I'm sure I'd have figured out places without snow have very different springs just not something you think about often. And yeah I know, lots of sites are winter access only for that reason they're basically a swamp when its above freezing.

−1

I_am_oneiros t1_ja7lwo2 wrote

Replying to darwinfish86 (#2,042,095)

The blog is incredible. It lines up very neatly with the Hindu religious experience.

For example, you have old Gods (devas e.g. Indra who are the primary Gods in the Rigveda), the all powerful Gods (e.g. Vishnu who form the primary pantheon today), local Gods (e.g. specific to one village), situational Gods (e.g. for spring harvest), and deified humans e.g. Rama. The Brahmins are the priestly caste and Hinduism is heavy on rituals.

This in a living breathing religion which varies from place to place is quite a fascinating thing.

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Fallingdamage t1_ja7vqif wrote

Replying to me_irl_irl_irl_irl (#2,039,229)

I always wonder what history will look like for future humans.

500-10,000 years after we're done blowing ourselves and our planet to bits, the next great civilization on this planet will assume the 20th century was where it all started since there wont be anything left of the past not already dug up, sold to antiquity dealers or pulverized/defaced for developments or religion. Even the bones of dinosaurs have been largely dug up and cataloged already. We're finding less and less ancient history every year.

Without the vast knowledge we've gained by basically disturbing history, what will our future selves even think about earths history?

3

Flammenschwert t1_ja80dob wrote

Replying to vmp916 (#2,047,179)

There's kind of a big muddy area between abstract symbols and a full on script, which is specifically symbols representing spoken language. They may have had symbolic meaning without directly standing in for language. For an example in the modern world, a roadsign indicating a turn has symbolic meaning, but that doesn't make it a script. The Nike logo definitely stands for a particular meaning, but it's not part of a script either. It's unknown whether or not the Indus Valley script is a proper script or if it has non-language symbolic meaning.

1

False798 t1_ja867it wrote

Replying to neokraken17 (#2,052,766)

My education experience in the US was only 5 for each hand - I resent not learning about this for so long because I definitely could've used it countless times.

Time to build muscle memory...

1

Bucket_of_Nipples t1_ja875qb wrote

Replying to Fallingdamage (#2,056,655)

I think we need someone a lot closer to the subject than me to say for sure, but, as I understand it, paleontology and archeology have seen a huge explosion of investment and discovery in the last few decades. With new technology and new ways of finding things, we're still digging into history and learning things never before known. Like this site, and dozens more in the Amazon, the Sahara, etc.

I think you make very good points. I think we may find ourselves in that position someday. But, I also don't think we've reached the bottom of that barrel yet. The easy stuff just laying exposed on the ground? Mostly, sure, I suppose. But there's just so much more.

I think?

1

AppleDane t1_ja8g2mo wrote

Replying to dreadcain (#2,061,505)

I have to give up on finding any. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I remember this from either a documentary on TV or some article I read.

Everyone points to the babylonian number system, so I'm doubting myself too. Maybe I misremember this, or it was a later invention.

0