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TimeForHugs t1_ivxzdoe wrote

While this is a wonderful win, it's sad that it's 2022 and people are still having to fight for equal rights, women's rights, voter rights, etc. Really stupid that there are so many people that want to turn back the clock on progression because they don't agree with things that mostly have nothing to do with them.

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ThyNynax t1_ivyah9c wrote

Human nature and the pursuit of power means that there will never be an end to the fight for equal rights. “The people have the freedom to choose their life and laws” democracy and “I have all the answers, just give me the power to fix things” fascism is a pendulum society will always be fighting between.

At least until AI takes over and it’s all handled by a super intelligence.

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Big_Mac22 t1_ivz4lg1 wrote

Please don't perpetuate that it's human nature to want to dominate other people. It's not some pendulum of good vs evil because that's just how humans are.

Society began when we started co-operating together. That is our nature.

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Traditional-Meat-549 t1_ivz6icd wrote

Seems to me that SOME people cooperate and others strive to dominate. I don't see, looking back at history, that the worst in human nature has been curbed much with the exception of those places that hold them accountable to codified laws. Prove me wrong.

Society began when we agreed upon rules. We had to agree on rules because we needed to curb bad behavior.

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RebTilian t1_ivzeqbu wrote

its mostly that like 95% of people just want to do what they want to do, not be bothered doing it, and be comfortable in their day to day lives.

for the other 5%, that means, they either facilitate comfortableness or stand directly in the way, due to their particular want being of a greater importance.

100% Empathy is not an intrinsic trait through and through, it is at least half way learned.

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Big_Mac22 t1_ivz7pis wrote

I never denied that rules or laws are necessary. My point is that making it seem like it's just part of human nature to want to rob people of their rights in order to gain power only legitimises it.

That shit is learned behaviour. It doesn't help anyone to pretend it's just how some people always would have been, all that does is justify their position as natural.

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Traditional-Meat-549 t1_ivze41y wrote

do you have children?

I ask this because I watched the evolution of this stuff in the interactions with my own kids - the eldest routinely sought to dominate his younger siblings. I submit to you that its behavior that comes naturally to SOME people in SOME circumstances, and unless it is halted and retrained, becomes a way of life. Kids are not naturally "good" or "bad", but they are little scientists who will experiment with behavior until they achieve a desired outcome. Hence, boundaries.

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ArenSteele t1_ivzf8z8 wrote

It is human nature to want and need, then to seek to acquire. The method chosen to seek and acquire can vary from “do it alone” to “ask for help” to “force that person to help”

The cooperation/domination dynamic is just the reaction to the nature of wanting (safety, power, comfort, wealth etc)

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sweetpeapickle t1_ivzt3la wrote

Unfortunately there are some who are BORN that way. Yes, some evil is born. Just like you will have some who are born to be good in every way. It's the rest of us who end up learning one way or the other.

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ThyNynax t1_ivzipo1 wrote

As others have noted, “human nature” applies to an aggregate of all people in this context. It does not mean that each individual carries a will to dominate.

Fact is, though, psychopathy as a neurological condition does exist. Narcissistic Personality Disorder as a psychological condition does exist. Combined with all manner of forms of cognitive dissonance and willful blindness, there are people that very much have the will to dominate, the ability to find followers to help them, and the lack of empathy to care who gets crushed along the way. Not even including extreme mental disorders, though, there is still love, hate, fear, desire, jealousy….as long as emotions exist there will be cause for chaos among human civilizations and those that seek to take advantage for personal gain, to protect their families at the expense of others, or simply to act out of spite (which often comes from ideas of fairness).

Also, “human nature” as a term is not meant to associate a moral good or a moral evil. It is simply the biological “nature” part that makes up the behavior of Homo sapiens. What makes humans unique to other animals is our ability to cognitively recognize that nature, understand it, and choose to act differently. When that choice is made is influenced by lots of things, unique to each person, and is another battle that must always be fought (think of the person that wants to stay loyal to a spouse but has the opportunity for hot sex right now).

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x273 t1_ivzi562 wrote

Yes I believe in the end, cooperation is the solution to survival. I attribute religion as fueling this human condition to dominate, and not as a natural trait in us. Also why religion has no place in politics. It makes us forget we are the same species and pits us against each other.

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hpark21 t1_ivy15il wrote

Where have you been in last 6 years? That is basically the premise of "Make America Great Again" campaign.

Ask ANY MAGA people WHEN was America GREAT and they all basically point to the 40-50 (maybe 60's?) during Jim Crow era pretty much.

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TimeForHugs t1_ivy2qwj wrote

What did I say to make you think I am unaware of the MAGA movement? All I said is that it's sad and stupid that people still have to fight for this stuff in this day and age.

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Due-Ad-7308 t1_ivy5bi6 wrote

You were fine. They've just got to hit their quota.

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Jeremyg93 t1_iw1fzno wrote

I think it’s probably this:

> …it's sad that it's 2022 and people are still having to fight for equal rights, women's rights, voter rights, etc. Really stupid that there are so many people that want to turn back the clock on progression…

Your framing here suggests a few things that are questionable.

You kind of suggest that there is something natural, almost preordained, about social ‘progression,’ when in reality, there is no point where these things are somehow immune to being destroyed by hate, corruption, and selfishness. Humanity will always be in a struggle to prevent these things. There is not some end-point to history.

Even in a world where we finally have absolute equality and prosperity for all, you still need the vigilance to maintain a just world and prevent retraction. Human culture is always mailable, for better as well as worse. In this way, there is nothing special about the year 2022.

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TimeForHugs t1_iw1ruc0 wrote

You aren't wrong with what you said but that still has absolutely nothing to do with the idea that I am unaware of MAGA.

Edit: It also doesn't make it any less stupid that people have to fight for these rights.

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Jeremyg93 t1_iw4sjbl wrote

Well one, you didn’t just say that it’s stupid that people have to fight for their rights. You said its stupid people still have to fight for rights in 2022.

I think it’s also arguable that there is no situation where it’s stupid to fight for your rights, even when you already have them comfortably. There is danger in assuming there is an after-we’re done phase to this. In reality it could just as well be an unending struggle.

And also there is no arbitrary time table for these things to happen. We should expect to fight these things our entire lives. Any expectations otherwise are not reasonable.

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TimeForHugs t1_iw6hzcx wrote

>I think it’s also arguable that there is no situation where it’s stupid to fight for your rights

You can't be serious. I never said it's stupid TO fight for rights, I said it's stupid people HAVE to. Is reading so hard?

And this still has nothing to do with the idea I'm unaware of MAGA. You keep arguing your point even when I said you aren't wrong. It makes no sense. Everything you said is fine but you keep trying to use it to answer the "unaware of MAGA" question when it has absolutely nothing to do with it. If you had just said your piece without trying to connect those two things then we wouldn't be having this dumb conversation and everything would be fine.

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no-one-but-crow t1_ivyr46v wrote

they point to the strong union era while voting against unions.

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COMPUTER1313 t1_ivyxny8 wrote

Back in high school (many years before MAGA took off), I knew someone that posted on Facebook about how they considered 1910-1920 to be the best time for the US in terms of society.

I asked them about the Chinese Exclusion Act in that FB thread, just to see if they were willing to die on that hill.

He stirred up quite a bit of high school drama when he told me that I was not welcomed in the US (which also implicitly included my siblings). Bear in mind that I was born in the US a couple years after my parents fled from China in the aftermath of the Tienanmen Square Massacre.

Then he caused more drama when he had a messy breakup with his girlfriend (something about her disagreeing with his stance of not wanting women to vote) and picked a fight with her large group of friends.

Also bear in mind that this high school was +95% white which he made himself an outcast of. Of the ~600 students, there was only one African American, one Hispanic, and the only Asians were me and my siblings.

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GlumpsAlot t1_ivypshu wrote

Conservatives care about "economy" and not human rights, at least not until it affects them.

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ArrrGaming t1_ivysb50 wrote

To many people want their beliefs to dictate the behavior of others.

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Sirspen t1_ivzwhaq wrote

Naturally, the sample ballot's published argument against passage was all about how this amendment was an attack on religious freedom.

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g0d15anath315t t1_iw1rizx wrote

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance"

The arrow doesn't keep going forward unless there are people that fight for and preserve that progress.

Always someone out there ready to take us back to the stone age.

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walkinman19 t1_iw58xvr wrote

> so many people that want to turn back the clock on progression

IOW republicans.

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