No details yet, but here's a non paywalled source for when they update with more info - https://6abc.com/roxborough-high-school-philadelphia-ambush-shooting-deadly-philly-person-of-interest/12320165/

Here is a non-paywall version of the Inquirer article:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/police-arrest-second-suspect-in-roxborough-high-school-shooting/ar-AA12V5G7

"Vanore said that police were led to Bivins by a receipt found in the stolen Ford Explorer allegedly used as the getaway vehicle. The receipt was for ammunition that Bivins had purchased in a South Philadelphia gun shop, he said."

Wow. Imagine how much better things would be if people couldn’t just walk into stores and buy guns/ammo.

Zyhied Jones, 17, was taken into custody around 6 a.m. Thursday. He was arrested after the Philadelphia Police Homicide Unit and the ATF served a warrant in the 2700 block of West Albert Street.

Funny thing is there was already a law against this guy purchasing ammo - "As a convicted felon, Bivins was ineligible to purchase ammunition. Vanore declined to say how Bivins was allowed to purchase the ammunition and did not name the gun shop that sold it to him. "

Charge the gun shop owner for illegally selling him the ammo.

There was an entire discussion on this yesterday

tl;dr background checks are not required for purchase of ammo only

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Imagine your downfall isn’t the horrible act itself but the other problem plaguing the city…throwing your trash away properly.

>a South Philadelphia gun shop

That narrows it down to one, I think.

Thanks!! Didn’t read yesterday’s

I think we need to outlaw beefing on social media. The gun laws are less strict in the burbs yet this kind of thing isn’t as big of an issue there.

Not sure why this is downvoted. I thought we wanted to hold people accountable?

EDIT: I have now seen yesterdays link re purchasing ammo and background checks

Amazing what happens when the justice system operates as designed to.

Only thing that’s changed is the spotlight

If people don’t care about their surroundings then they do not care about each other.

It's not required they do a background check for just ammo. The gunshop did nothing illegal.

Bingo.

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Thanks! Annoying that Vanore declined to provide this information and instead seems to imply the gun shop didn't do their job.

Well, it's not a gun? Seems against the spirit of the 2A to restrict access to ammunition.

What is a gun license? There is no such thing.

Did anyone else notice that Bivins was already prosecuted for third degree murder after killing a pregnant woman in 2020, but the DAO couldn't get the charges to stick due to incompetent prosecution?

Just another murder left on the street to kill again thanks to Krasner's incompetent prosecutors

It all contributes.

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I'm not sure where you read incompetent prosecution. I did read that the guy had his bail set at 1 mil and a judge reduced it to 170k.

Just to make sure we're keeping score here.

• DA charges with various charges including murder of an unborn child. Judge tosses most serious charges.
• DA sets bail at 1 mil. Judge sets bail at 170k.
• Convicted in August, still on the streets in October.
• Despite being a convict he is allowed, while out on bail, to purchase ammo from a gun shop in South Philly.

I've said a few times on here that my main issue with the DA is that the office is disorganized and bleeding talent, but this perfectly illustrates the bigger issue happening in this city.

If a crime is committed, the witness might not come forward. If they do come forward, the cops might not get a warrant. If they get a warrant, they might not get an arrest. If they get an arrest, they might not get charged. If they get charged, they might not be convicted. If they get convicted, the judge might reduce their bail.

Every single level of this city's criminal justice system is broken, but more often then not it's judges sending these assholes back onto the streets. It doesn't get nearly enough coverage, but most of the time some dude who should be in jail kills someone it's a judge that put them back on the street, not the DA.

He was found not guilty on most charges, including 3rd degree murder. He killed a pregnant woman while driving recklessly without a license and the DA couldn't get the 3rd degree murder charge to stick, how do you not read incompetence into that?

It’s downvoted because the guy is a self avowed gun grabber spreading misinformation about current gun laws.

Well the gun shop's existence helped make this possible. A large amount of guns used in the city also started off as legal purchases; https://www.phillyvoice.com/crime-guns-sales-philadelphia-brady/

That said, it does sound like this guy should've been in jail long ago. I wonder what the latest on Krasner's impeachment is.

> He killed a pregnant woman

She survived, her baby did not.

I misunderstood the article then, thank you.

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The thing is that I want legal gun owners to have easy access to ammo, because more practice means better marksmanship and less chance of endangering a bystander. So I have no problem with gun shops being around and selling ammo, but if there is a law that says felons shouldn't have it (makes sense), then it also makes sense that the state should have a law that shops should do a quick background check before selling said ammo.

He was also found guilty on multiple felonies and was awaiting sentencing, not sure where you're getting the idea he got off on all charges.

Read the article, the ATF is doing the heavy lifting here, so no they aren't actually doing their job.

I get that, and yeah they should do background checks before selling ammo.

Btw I'm also not completely anti-gun, I grew up with them and may get a handgun in the near future. I just hear stories like this and the article I shared above, leading me to question whether they should be this available to the public.

Not every criminal literally leaves a receipt in the car.

>Judge sets bail at 170k

Do we know why?

I'll confess I haven't looked into that, but the judges in the city routinely balk at high bail.

For some background, the DA does support no cash bail but we do not have it currently implemented in this city. That system isn't what a lot of people think it is, basically everyone is either a danger to society/flight risk or they're not. In a no cash bail system you let the people who should be free on bail out and keep the ones who are dangerous in. Right now a mass murderer could get out on bail if they had enough money, while some guy who got arrested for having too many unpaid parking tickets can't.

Like I said, we don't have it in this city. What the DA often does is try to set the maximum legal amount they can if they don't believe someone should be allowed to go free. That's what happened here. The judges routinely deny those requests and set it to something that can be paid, it happens all the time. Last year there was a guy out on bail who killed that Temple kid? Krasner took a lot of heat for that but it was the same exact situation, they tried to set bail at 1 mil and the judge reduced it twice.

He got off on a murder charge for killing the woman's unborn kid, not the woman. He was still convicted of some serious crimes and would have been doing multiple years in jail once he was sentenced.

If a DA that doesn't like throwing people in jail says a guy should not be allowed out on bail I'd tend to take their word for it, especially after said guy murders someone outside a school.

> Judge tosses most serious charges.

The judge didn’t “toss the charges,” he was found not guilty of the charges, which means the prosecution didn’t meet their burden of proof

Immediately thought of the fact that kelso was able to rent a tap for a keg despite being under 18 in that 70s show. And the bartender just being like...can't drink a tap. Not sure why I wouldn't be able to sell you it.

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There is always one kid with a gun and no ski mask in the Instagram gang photo, he has to know he's going to get in trouble somehow.

If one good thing can come of this I hope that maybe these judges that hold this position have their minds changed. This man clearly should not have been able to walk around.

I order my ammunition online and it's delivered by the 1000 round case.

Imagine how much better things would be if people didn't choose to shoot other people

The thing is, there is no going back. The cow has been milked, the wench has been fucked, the cats out of the bag. There are 600 plus million firearms, and there's 3d printers and open source plans that can do more.

There's trillions of rounds of ammunition floating around.

The Swiss can purchase fully automatic weapons at a whim. Is their murder rate awful? No.

We've got systemic problems, equality issues flow through from that, and we've got an ineffective police department that can't solve shootings at more than 10%. Its pathetic.

You don't think mandatory gun buybacks could be effective? Obviously the optional ones do nothing and probably just waste government money.

Switzerland is just so different from us. My understanding is that military service is mandatory for all men which includes weapons training, and then they have the option to buy their weapon when they are done serving. After a triple shooting like 20 years ago, now a permit is required for people leaving service, and justification for why the weapon is needed. Their rate of gun ownership is also about half of ours, despite still being one of the highest on Earth.

I agree with you on the systemic problems - those are what differentiate us most from any other high income country when making comparisons regarding gun laws and violence. Also the abysmal rate of these shootings being solved like you mentioned. Addressing these issues would for sure have the greatest impact on public safety. Shoot, maybe we should make a few years of military service a requirement.

which wench though, there are so many

Correct equation: people with power do not care about some people (nor investing in those people's surroundings), so those people choose not to care about their surroundings, nor other people.

If you look at the surveillance video of them, all three have face coverings and two of them have the black whole head face covering on.

Every time one of these videos comes out my refusal to interact with masked people under 50 is vindicated. If you’re not old or sickly there is no good reason to be covering your damn face. Don’t talk to me, don’t approach me. I assume it is malicious and respond in kind. Stores should get beck to prohibiting masks (with exception for elderly and chronically ill)

There's at least 2 I know of.

Phila. Archery and Gun club, and… there was one on Front St. but I thought it closed a few years back.

Why couldn't he get it to stick? You keep mentioning that it's because of incompetence, but where's the link talking about how the poor case of the prosecution caused his verdict, as opposed to some other reason.

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Mandatory gun buybacks aren't politically popular. The main reason for that is that there's a lot of gun owners.

Even if politically popular, the legal changes necessary to do so are very difficult and would be easily derailed by pro gun interests.

If you offered $500 a gun which is probably a fair average value, it would cost $200 billion dollars just to buy 400 million guns. That doesn't include the infrastructure to administer the buybacks and have the weapons destroyed. Let's say another 50 bil.

250 billion is a lot of money for a best case scenario in terms of implementation. But mandatory buybacks are likely to be extremely controversial and will need to use force against the non compliant.

The vast majority of gun owners are honest people that never used their gun improperly. Even so, a very small percentage of radicals among a population of approximately 100 million owners is still millions of people.

If they don't comply, do you send in police to confiscate? Would the police follow through and execute warrants en masse against people holed up at home with their guns? I certainly wouldn't.

For the love of God, can people please stop posting inquirer links here? A paywalled news source is a garbage news source.

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If they really tried to charge him with third-degree for that, it makes sense why it didn't stick. I feel lots of violent offenders escape jail time based on the prosecutor pursuing inaccurate or overly drastic charges that are much harder to prove.

If you just worry about the people you see as powerful, you have removed all power from yourself. Take responsibility for your life and work on it first. A good start is cleanliness. Poverty is no excuse for filth.

Or themselves. It is not just disrespectful to your neighbor it is disrespectful to yourself. It is your city. Littering is shameful. Ignorance might be a reason, but it is a poor, poor excuse.

As far as I know, there aren't restrictions on ammo purchases. I've never once been asked to show any ID, or have a background check on ammo purchases.

As a side note, there are also no restrictions on reloading supplies or machines. Literally anyone can purchase the materials and presses to make their own ammo.

I bought a press for my Dad for his birthday when I was 16. Walked in, paid, walked out. No big deal.

Look at that, the right wing gun nuts are very quiet right now

It should be required

In March of 2020, the Federal Gov processed over FOUR Million background checks for firearm purchases. That's just one month, and I know my purchase that month took 8 days to clear due to my common name, as well a military history.

Imagine the clusterfuck if they had to process 40 million checks monthly for all firearm and ammo purchases. It would crash the system. Completely unfeasible and as the laws read currently, illegal; since only firearm ownership is regulated, not ammunition.

Buybacks are a JOKE, and a money maker for people with broken, unusable firearms, people with any machining skills, or people with a 3D printer.

Average buy back is $150-250 each gun. A buddy of mine in Arizona 3D-printed 25 pistols, and sold them all for $200 each this year. It cost him less than $200 to print them all, he made a $4,800 profit and bought 3 more rifles with the money, lol. 🤣

"Obviously the optional ones do nothing and probably just waste government money."

Maybe your friend is part of why Phoenix is getting so violent: https://ktar.com/story/5215561/recent-gun-violence-is-unlike-anything-phoenix-police-chief-has-seen-in-33-years/

I buy some of mine online, since the local stores don't carry 9.3x62, lol. I've found black powder is cheaper online as well.

It's not illegal though.

Don't see how, seeing he's never committed a crime in his life aside from speeding, and had never shot someone outside of military duty when he did 3 tours in Afghanistan, but do go on with that assumption.

Lol I was joking, I don't think he's responsible for that.

I also realize that buybacks the way we do them now don't work, when I lived in Baltimore people showed up with crazy things like used rocket launchers... and still got paid. I'm talking about the type of buyback they did in Australia. The only reason it wouldn't work in the US is because people are psycho about having guns, even though the current laws were crafted with 250 year-old guns in mind. Maybe if the national guard was knocking on people's doors...

Gotcha, sarcasm doesn't always translate well here, and there are people that actually do have that train of thought.

People who own firearms here don't want to lose money, lol.

Like my co-worker just bought a Christensen 6.5 Creedmore rifle for $2300 before taxes. A buyback here wouldn't be a tenth of what he paid.

We HAVE had the NG knocking on doors, and even shooting and killing civilian college kids.

That's fair, they are definitely expensive.

My dad was law enforcement so I grew up shooting all types of guns, and I'm not against the reasons that most people want them. I've just read data on where crime guns originate, and they are often traced back to legal dealers which makes me think something should be changed.

I know a few years back, one of our local gun stores was robbed after hours. Stole over 50 firearms. Didn't go through the doors or windows though. They brought a cutting torch and cut a hole in the side of the metal wall, lol.

Criminals just aren't going to kowtow to society and rules, no matter how many laws are created, it's frustrating for sure.

While I'm sure, a few have been illegally sold over the years, I don't think most that are registered to dealers are dirty sales, I think most are stolen.

Krasner's office requested $1 million bail, which is as close as they can get to denying bail. The judge rejected the request and granted $180,000 bail.

This has been a common thread in a few other cases where offenders were out on bail. So if we want to assign blame, we should make sure the judges are held accountable too.

I disagree.

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u/GreenAnder 's comment is a good explanation of the machinations behind that outcome. But on a practical level, the judge set it at 170k because people in PA have a right to bail except for in the case of capital crimes (his convictions were not) and/or they pose an immediate threat to public safety. The latter seems clear with 20/20 hindsight, but at the time he was convicted we didn't have Precogs proving that he was going to go out and shoot up a school. Million dollar bail can be argued as denial of bail (because it's meant to be) and a violation of civil rights.

This judge attempted to balance the constitutional right to bail with risk to public safety and the judge judged wrongly here.

No wonder why so many people are shot & killed in this country.

The law is completely fucked up.

Then don't ever bitch about gun violence

It really isn't,

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This part cracks me up. Not saying these kids are criminal masterminds or anything, but seriously how stupid you gotta be to hand yourself to the police on a silver platter.

no

Holy shit is this ignorant. People in poverty don't have time to worry about people in power. They're too busy starving, getting profiled by police, getting evicted and not getting qualified for loans or being considered for jobs.

>one on Front St.

About ten years ago, my friends and I went to that one. We were just handed the gun, given no instructions, and no eye protection. My friend took one shot, the bullet ricocheted off of the concrete in front of us and hit another friend in the elbow.

He said that it felt like someone smashed his arm a bunch of times with a baseball bat. He was bleeding all over the place and an employee came over and handed him a single container of Neosporin before saying, "Make sure you give that back to me."

I can't imagine why that place closed...

My general point is that people think this is all the DA when it isn't, but this is also a major area of complaint with Krasner. It would be very easy for him to get on TV and explain this, but he doesn't. It's not the guys policies that are the problem, it's him and his ability to get along with people and explain things to the public.

I'm not sure how "man hits woman with car, woman's unborn child dies" is something that needs to clear a burden of proof. The judge found the man not responsible for the death, it's not arguable that his actions lead to the death of her unborn child. Things that are facts in this case.

- The man was racing

- He was drunk

- He crashed his car

- The woman lost her child

Insane.

My friend and I rented a Glock 19 there one time. He and I both had prior shooting experience but were given no instruction or supervision beyond “have you ever shot a gun before?”

It must have been poorly maintained, because it kept jamming.

Fun times!

I had much better experiences at the Archery and Gun Club.

It was truly wild. I should also note that only one of us (out of six total) had shooting experience, which makes that situation all the more nuts.

>I'm not sure how "man hits woman with car, woman's unborn child dies" is something that needs to clear a burden of proof.

That’s… very concerning. All criminal accusations need to clear a burden of proof. The more extreme they are, the more important meeting that burden of proof is.

murder in the third degree is usually thought to require an element of malice which is something more than negligence/recklessness. An argument can certainly be made for malice but it has to be made. For many car accidents that kill another, involuntary manslaughter is the charge that you can get to stick. You might remember a judge actually initially dropped third degree murder charges for the woman who killed two police officers while drunk. They were reinstated but the prosecution will need to prove she did act with malice, it isn’t a given or even all that likely.

There is no charge of involuntarily manslaughter to an unborn child so it wasn’t an option for a charge. If the woman had died, I’m sure we’d see involuntary manslaughter, homicide by vehicle while DUI, and homicide by vehicle charges but there are only a few options to charge under for killing an unborn baby.

“Tossing the charges” is a phrase used for dismissing charges as the judge did in the cop killing dui at first, not when they are actually deliberated and decided on.

Agreed 100%. His retail politics are atrocious and it undermines his stated mission.

If all that is true then there is no definition under the law that would have stuck to this guy, your claim that the DA didn't meet the burden of proof is technically true but functionally meaningless. He fell through a loophole in PA law, they couldn't even have charged him with aggravated assault of an unborn child since he had no way of knowing the woman was pregnant.

All that taken into account he wasn't 'innocent', he just wasn't guilty of the charges because PA doesn't have a statute that fits the crime he committed. That was likely the reasoning behind the higher than normal bail amount.

Except you can get third degree murder charges to stick for what he did (driving drunk at high speeds), it does happen. Was probably more likely if he’d chosen a jury trial bc of how sympathetic the jury would be. A bench trial was probably a strategic move on the part of the defense as the judge is more likely to stick to the letter of the law vs sympathy. It was a reach of a charge but it was possible, I wouldn’t say the judge tossed the charges, I also wouldn’t say the prosecution was incompetent.

There should be an involuntary manslaughter charge for unborn children. There’s a voluntary manslaughter charge. Seems like a bad oversight. There should be a slam dunk charge just like there is for born people.

What I don't get is why he still hasn't been found. He is either hiding out, left the area, or dead.

If he is in hiding and is being helped, I can't wait for that person to get taken in, too.

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