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jlivingood t1_j3rjyi3 wrote

Now can we add cameras to Lincoln Drive and Kelly Drive...

127

PhillyAccount t1_j3rnprb wrote

My psychotic take is that Lincoln, Kelly and MLK should be tolled and the proceeds should go directly to Parks & Rec

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someredditor12345 t1_j3sdnue wrote

MLK should be de-vehicle-ized. Was awesome in Covid

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HobbyPlodder t1_j3setpy wrote

The weekends are great, until the dusk transition when confused random cars end up alongside the runners and bikers

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gigibuffoon t1_j3vlcnt wrote

How do cars get past the barricades?

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HobbyPlodder t1_j3w21wh wrote

The one at the bottom of the first hill (going west on MLK) gets opened up at dusk. The one at the museum circle generally isn't opened that early, nor the one at the falls bridge end. But you end up with cars coming down the hill and getting stuck on MLK

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Electr_O_Purist t1_j3rtjtr wrote

Driving 25 on Kelly Drive is one of my favorite past times. People absolutely lose their minds over it.

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cpndff93 t1_j3su48w wrote

I do the same all over the city. Other favorite game is to actually stop at stop signs - people go nuts!!! Its incredible!

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reddit-toq t1_j3rwihw wrote

Good way to get rear ended.

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Electr_O_Purist t1_j3rx266 wrote

The speed limit is 25. Why should I speed?

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solipsisticsundays t1_j3sty6w wrote

The posted speed limit is 35 mph which leads me to believe you’re not paying attention to signs while you drive.

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Electr_O_Purist t1_j3t2bpo wrote

It’s true that throughout Kelly and Lincoln drive the limit fluctuates between 25 and 35 depending on where you are. Most people seem to treat it like they can go 55. That’s all I’m pointing out here. People drive wild up there.

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[deleted] t1_j3ujvbq wrote

Sounds like bad design if people feel safe going that fast. If they want people to go slower, they should narrow the lanes.

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ronreadingpa t1_j3s1ey1 wrote

You shouldn't. However, if an aggressive driver is behind you, safer to speed up a bit / move out of the way. Many drivers out there without valid registration / plates, no insurance (or extremely underinsured; state minimums are ridiculous low), and often impaired. Add to that the possibility of being armed.

More to the point, when getting rear-ended, insurance isn't likely going to cover much. Better to avoid conflict, but each to their own.

−4

RoughRhinos t1_j3s908u wrote

Think you'd be fine in the right lane. Probably would just assume it was an old person.

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just_start_doing_it OP t1_j3rpqwm wrote

Call your city council member and tell them that

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RoverTheMonster t1_j3vpz09 wrote

There was a meeting with police in fairmount last night and a resident brought up this issue of speeding on Kelly Drive, and the police said exactly that: email and call Darrell Clark’s office about it and don’t stop until the cameras go up. I guess that’s how cameras were finally installed along Girard Ave in Brewerytown

(FWIW, I don’t really believe the police, but clearly the squeaky wheel gets the grease in Philly)

3

mistersausage t1_j3wm361 wrote

There are no speed cameras on Girard. The only speed cameras in the city are on the boulevard (other than possible mobile work zone speed cameras).

Speed cameras are illegal in Pennsylvania, so adding them requires a law to be passed by the state legislature.

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RoverTheMonster t1_j3wxjv1 wrote

Sorry — I got this wrong (duh). I meant the white safety cameras 29th and 27th to keep an eye on those corners for public safety, not traffic

1

ConfiaEnElProceso t1_j3tspxr wrote

Is this subject to the whims of council and the tyranny of councilmanic prerogative? My understanding was that it was not.

1

maxwellington97 t1_j3tb8ai wrote

Don't forget on Belmont and Ave of the Republic. My first time in the city when I moved here I was driving there late at night and ended up stuck behind street racers.

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Fattom23 t1_j3suiht wrote

Now if we could just get some enforcement of the tinted plate covers and temp tags, so that everyone is subject to those same rules, we'd really be getting somewhere.

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ConfiaEnElProceso t1_j3tsaq3 wrote

At least in NYC where cameras are more prevelant the listen plate obstruction is incredibly common by police who often live in outer boroughs or outside the city and can avoid tolls.

Here is one solution:

https://youtu.be/WcliB8uBs5w

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Fattom23 t1_j3tt2v9 wrote

Yeah, police corruption will always be an issue. But I'd rather there be some camera enforcement and then we have to rein in the cops to get them to follow the law the same as I expect from others than for us to just to not even try.

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ConfiaEnElProceso t1_j3ttnd6 wrote

Oh, i 100% agree. The other benefit of cameras is that it lessens the number of police stops which can often be deadly for POC.

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Fattom23 t1_j3ttx49 wrote

100%. But no one ever really talks about how city streets are also quite dangerous when you have someone pulled over (both for passing motorists, pedestrians and the officer doing the stopping). So avoiding that danger is a positive as well. Sucks for people who accustomed to endangering those around them and would like to keep doing that, though.

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Th3V4ndal t1_j3ui43n wrote

I think Mythbusters did a thing on that, and found that they were useless, the tinted plate covers anyway.

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_Abobo t1_j3v823x wrote

They’re absolutely not useless and are used widely in toll evasion. Try looking at one from an angle, it’s the same as the privacy screens for laptops and phones.

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Th3V4ndal t1_j3wmq97 wrote

I mean, do you have a video or a source for me, or are we just doing the conjecture thing?

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LFKhael t1_j3rhuji wrote

> Collisions with fatalities or serious injuries declined 11% on the Boulevard in the period studied, while at the same time such crashes were increasing by 16% in the city as a whole.

Brb gonna go flip the lights on and off in the bathroom while saying "mandatory 4k"

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NotUnstoned t1_j3u4aqm wrote

You gotta flip the lights on and off on the Comcast center, and make sure to say it 3x or else the mandatory 4k will just appear inside your house

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[deleted] t1_j3rhvzr wrote

[deleted]

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just_start_doing_it OP t1_j3rpny7 wrote

That might be the case but the data shows that crashes are down so the phenomenon you are seeing either isn’t happening that often or isn’t causing crashes.

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hatramroany t1_j3rmaap wrote

Pedestrian bridges are bad and further prioritize cars over people

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NoREEEEEEtilBrooklyn t1_j3rnf3u wrote

All this article says to me is that current pedestrian bridges are poorly designed.

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sanspoint_ t1_j3s5xau wrote

Pedestrian bridges are an accessibility nightmare though, and you can't fix it with design.

Consider this: The ADA guidelines for a wheelchair accessible ramp (and your pedestrian bridge damn well better be wheelchair accessible) specify a rise over run of 1:12. In other words, for every inch of height on the ramp, there must be 12 inches, or one foot, of run. This means a 10 foot high pedestrian bridge needs 120 feet worth of ramp. That's a lot of ramp. Where do you put it? Stack it? Sure, but that adds even more distance to travel to get to the top of it. And you need it on both sides.

So now, instead of crossing 120-150 feet of road, you've got someone going up 120 or more feet of ramp, 120-150 feet of bridge, and another 120 or so feet of ramp down to cross the street. How is this better than just having cars stop at lights to let pedestrians cross?

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hatramroany t1_j3sf92q wrote

This sub usually: fuck cars

This sub when talking about admittedly neat looking pedestrian walkways that are fundamentally bad that no amount of design can fix: fuck pedestrians

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Glystopher t1_j3sfx25 wrote

If I had my way and 10 billion , there would be elevated pedestrian/bikeways everywhere in the city , and lots of long on ramps!

2

TheFAPnetwork t1_j3sfbye wrote

People are speeding between cameras but the majority of drivers aren't hip to either camera locations or they aren't hip to the 10mph over the speed limit buffer allowed through those zones.

Much of the real speeding happens more north, usually when the center lanes go under the circles

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psuedonymously t1_j3thedp wrote

>What I notice now is people speeding between the cameras and doing stupid weaving in and out of traffic

Are you under the impression this wasn’t happening before the cameras?

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Capkirk0923 t1_j3skz56 wrote

Now if we could tackle the carjacking

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RoverTheMonster t1_j3vq9qx wrote

FWIW, at the Fairmount community meeting with police last night the PPD put this one on the DA (weird) and said they’re hoping Krasner’s task force will deter carjacking — whatever that means

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Capkirk0923 t1_j3vqn67 wrote

Yeah, my gut feeling is that this administration is running out the clock, and the police are coasting.

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mistersausage t1_j3wmahi wrote

The DA can't file charges if the police don't make an arrest, so that excuse is bullshit.

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RoverTheMonster t1_j3wy56j wrote

Ya honestly the whole thing was infuriating. Like I had to go take a walk around the block to cool down after I left. It was an hour and 15 minutes of PPD leadership saying “it’s not our fault your lives are like this. It’s too hard to police now bc you all take videos of us and Krasner. If you want to feel safer, write to your council person to demand more money for the PPD.” Fortunately, some guy called them out for voting for FOP leadership that created and allowed the sick leave scheme so it wasn’t all “us police are so helpless, woah is us”

2

Scumandvillany t1_j3sc0mf wrote

Stop light cameras and speed cameras should be MANDATORY, citywide.

Like, no shit, enforcing the rules changes behavior. Did we really need a fuckin study?

And fuck Harrisburg for not letting Philadelphia install cameras as they wish.

MANDATORY SPEED CAMERAS

MANDATORY STOP LIGHT CAMERAS

MANDATORY 4 FUCKIN K

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gnartato t1_j3ssry4 wrote

Then the police only have all the stop sign intersections left to ignore.

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just_start_doing_it OP t1_j3t9f37 wrote

Hey, there are data that provides evidence that it works and people on this thread still think it doesn’t because of antidotes or mental models.

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Leviathant t1_j3ughde wrote

Red light cameras get abused, and have been found to increase accident rates - but speed cameras I can get behind.

I mean yeah, it sucks the first time I was shooting down an eight lane road in DC at 65mph, only to find out a week or two later that the signs said 45, but you can bet I never sped in Washington DC ever again.

Having visited a few places where speed in urban areas is enforced, it was jarring coming back and realizing what I'd acclimated to. I mean, I still deal with it, but it sure would be nice if fewer people would blast through Old City streets at highway speeds.

5

[deleted] t1_j3ukii1 wrote

Traffic calming such as narrower streets and speed tables are an option. The enforcement is immediate and much safer for pedestrians. Its a hard sell to people who just wanna go fast though.

If speed cameras are implemented, it probably means the road was overdesigned. It takes conscious effort to drive the speed limit when going faster feels safe.

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Leviathant t1_j3us5j7 wrote

All that happens with speed tables in the city is that the people who live on a street with speed tables have to deal with the constant shaking and noise of cars blasting over them at speed. And the ones they install on 2nd Street don't last. The end up as piles of broken plastic and tire-mangling bolts sticking out of the asphalt.

I'm okay with traffic calming measures that jut into the street though. When we visited England last year, my wife did all the driving. "What the fuck is this?!" she exclaimed, slowing down because the street suddenly got narrow. The system works!

Still, neither of these are going to erode the culture of speeding quite like speed cameras. It may take longer, but when you keep getting dinged for speeding, over and over, you generally change your behavior. And at the very least, they can tell a story about how the proceeds from speeding cameras can go to something that benefits the community. No promises that it actually gets accounted for properly. Automated enforcement is notoriously abused once you get people in power that turn a blind eye to it.

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RoverTheMonster t1_j3vqi4w wrote

I’ve never quite understood why Kelly and Lincoln Drives don’t at least have speed bumps. I’ve always assumed it’s a maintenance/snow removal thing

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AbsentEmpire t1_j3stv9y wrote

Yet more evidence that automated traffic enforcement works and should be more widely deployed throughout the city.

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Throwaway4philly1 t1_j3sqjtp wrote

Ive just stopped using blvd because it very easy to go past 50 and can’t keep paying $100 tickets.

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KenzoWap t1_j3sxq61 wrote

*reported collisions

1

just_start_doing_it OP t1_j3t902m wrote

So there are the same amount or more collisions than before but people aren’t reporting them?

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gyp_casino t1_j3u6k6f wrote

Grammar question. Why is there a comma in that sentence?

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kifn2 t1_j3sy790 wrote

Correlation =/= Causation

−8

flamehead2k1 t1_j3syrdg wrote

Do you have another suggestion as to the cause?

Are crashes down similarly on non camera roads?

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Mikemo05 t1_j3tf0l6 wrote

Less ppl taking a road with speed cameras.

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nihility101 t1_j3tdfrx wrote

I’m not saying this is it, but overall traffic could be down on the road, with COVID. I think traffic volume is the number you would have to compare against.

0

Mikemo05 t1_j3tf4lg wrote

Actually traffic collisions are up in the city . There are less cars on speed camera road perhaps

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kifn2 t1_j3t0ivx wrote

No, I don't. Neither is it up to me to provide one. When someone makes a claim of causation, it's up to that person(s) to prove it. I did read the state's "study" however. It's very biased . Also, I'm not saying that simple correlation isn't a
good argument for keeping the cameras. It could be, but to imply causation when all you have is correlation is disingenuous and biased.

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flamehead2k1 t1_j3t3993 wrote

The people making the claim have a detailed report and it isn't just a simple correlation as you claim.

Do you have a critique of the report or are you only critiquing the headline?

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kifn2 t1_j3t8sf4 wrote

I know. I read the whole report. Very biased.

−8

imscaredandcool t1_j3sbpeb wrote

Wow. Proving that we need to be watched like little children. Way to go, Philadelphia!

−9

just_start_doing_it OP t1_j3t9psb wrote

These are pretty common in other cities too. Not unique to Philly. Most people aren’t driving recklessly but for those that do automating enforcement through cameras has shown to be effective deterrence.

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imscaredandcool t1_j3u18lh wrote

I know. I’m just deprecating the city I love and it’s inhabitants

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Secksualinnuendo t1_j3ryqhh wrote

From my experience, the cameras have just caused more people to speed between cameras. Also alot of people using tinted plate covers.

−10

just_start_doing_it OP t1_j3s3m46 wrote

I have seen that too but there are a lot less crashes so I think we have to assume the speed cameras are working and that the experience of a few people is not representative of what is happening on a larger scale.

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LFKhael t1_j3s4gso wrote

People put the pedal all the way down just to go from one red light to the next, even in the crowded parts of CC.

That can't be helped without enforcement, which ain't happening ever, unfortunately.

The cameras are the best we can get for the time being.

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Mikemo05 t1_j3tfbhh wrote

Could just be less ppl on that road

0

just_start_doing_it OP t1_j3tnmg8 wrote

In the report they show “traffic volume” and it appears that it hasn’t really changed l, if anything there might be a increase. So the same amount of traffic (or more!) and less accidents.

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Fattom23 t1_j3tte92 wrote

Even if it was less people, fewer people on the boulevard is its own reward.

0

Mikemo05 t1_j3tuayq wrote

It would push them to side streets. Increasing traffic for local trips.

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Fattom23 t1_j3tvaz3 wrote

The streets without the high accident and fatality rates, with all the local traffic so that drivers have to slow down? Sounds good to me.

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thesehalcyondays t1_j3sls3h wrote

Those things are a problem and I would like a whole lot more enforcement but this is literally an article about how these things work.

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mexheavymetal t1_j3svs4o wrote

Big brother is watching. The CCP also initially installed cameras to “help police traffic incidents.” If the city really gave a shit about protecting bikers and pedestrians, it would increase funding to public transit and restructure traffic to include more and better bike lanes. Philly is addicted to cars because SEPTA isn’t given proper funding to adequately support cross city transit the way it should be

−12

An_emperor_penguin t1_j3tg5dq wrote

the threat to bikers and pedestrians is literally cars, investing in transit doesn't change that. Enforcing traffic laws against people driving like maniacs is the starting point for "giving a shit"

0

mexheavymetal t1_j3unlnw wrote

Investing in transit reduces the number of cars on the road, so yes- it would absolutely help that.

−1

An_emperor_penguin t1_j3upt4m wrote

If you let people drive dangerously and illegally then taking a handful of cars off the road won't make a difference

0

mexheavymetal t1_j3uqye1 wrote

I mean ideally it would given that there wouldn’t be the congestion that would make it dangerous. I get your point but I think you underestimate how many cars you can take off the road by having an adequately funded transit authority

0

An_emperor_penguin t1_j3uuebi wrote

What? Congestion has nothing to do with this, people speeding and driving recklessly are the issues, thats why the speed cameras are reducing crashes so drastically

0

Living-Pineapple-589 t1_j3rn5rh wrote

I'd rather the cops do their job and arrest offenders, the DA prosecute and incarcerate, the mayor and city council give a shit about public safety and the electorate vote better leaders into office...

... than turn Philadelphia into a police state.

(Mandatory 4K? No thanks.)

−18

Electr_O_Purist t1_j3rtzq3 wrote

The thing you’re advocating for is much much more police state-y than the thing you’re against.

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Living-Pineapple-589 t1_j3rvrd9 wrote

Basic city functions are now characteristic of a police state? Asking core city officials to do their job is advocating for a police state?

Seems we can't even agree on the basic of what constitutes a society anymore.

No surprise Philly's is in such bad shape these days.

−3

Electr_O_Purist t1_j3rym4l wrote

Guy…a camera is impartial and it only documents what it is set to document. Cops are overwhelmingly racists who profile and use speed stops as excuses to violate people’s 4th amendment rights and further invade their lives.

It’s not like having a traffic cop sitting on the corner makes getting caught speeding just bad luck or something. Cops can make up any reason they want to push you around, and can then use any reason they make up off the top of their head (imagined smells, an interpretation of your demeanor, a ‘suspicion’) as a cover to harass, and it’s clear who they like to harass most.

Cameras don’t harass. Cameras just sit there and document who sped. Emotionlessly. Without bias. People are far safer with cameras on them than cops running around lugging all the baggage that shoved them into a miserable life as a traffic cop.

3

LFKhael t1_j3ryt06 wrote

Dude was never arguing in good faith the moment he equated getting pulled over for a broken tail light and getting your car searched with "public safety."

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Living-Pineapple-589 t1_j3s059m wrote

I never equated getting your car searched due to a broken tail light as "public safety". That's ugly and just ridiculous.

And to imply that I'm simultaneously not in favor of police reform because I have serious concerns about how the recordings of daily life in the city could destroy the privacy of citizens is in and of itself the definition of a bad faith argument.

−1

AbsentEmpire t1_j3st8ne wrote

You have zero right to privacy in the public realm, a legal precedent that's been well established. You don't have a right to drive a car, nor a right to break speed and other traffic laws.

Your equating of automated traffic enforcement as being equal to a police state is just absurd.

3

Living-Pineapple-589 t1_j3swbqq wrote

Really? It's well established? Because it doesn't seem like it.

A five second Google search shows major opposition across the country to anything from a basic speed camera to something as advanced as facial recognition.

> a legal precedent that's been well established.

Heh, hopefully you're nobody's lawyer. And maybe this issue isn't as black and white as you want it to be.

1

LFKhael t1_j3s0hod wrote

Just because you claim to be something doesn't mean anything.

Same "as a centrist" bullshit people have been pushing for years.

Nobody is stupid enough to buy that anymore.

0

Scumandvillany t1_j3sch35 wrote

Objective enforcement is a good way forward that greatly reduces contact with police officers but also enforces laws on the road.

MANDATORY 4K

2

just_start_doing_it OP t1_j3rpz72 wrote

I don’t disagree but the speed cameras are reducing crashes on a road that has killed people. It is a solution that is actually working. Getting the DA and police to change… good luck!

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AbsentEmpire t1_j3sshzh wrote

Fucking lol what a dumb take. Speed cameras are doing literally everything you want the city to do other than elect better leaders. They avoid the problems with a police state that comes from having the police arbitrarily enforcing laws rather than objectively. To get the same effect the cameras have with actual police the city would have to hire thousands of new cops and put them at every corner of the road.

Enforcing traffic laws with cameras isn't 1984, and if you think that they are you have no idea what a real police state looks like.

5

Living-Pineapple-589 t1_j3sw9ve wrote

The use of speed cameras in public has been banned in multiple jurisdictions across America. Let's not act like this is some obvious slam dunk. "Fucking lol".

>Maine, Mississippi, New Hampshire, New Jersey, South Carolina, Texas, West Virginia and Wisconsin prohibit speed cameras via state law.

Doesn't sound like you speak for everyone. Shit, it sounds like entire states would care to disagree with you.

0

Mikemo05 t1_j3tfj5f wrote

Yes but let’s not waste time with traffic violations(besides dui and those guys on atvs) and out a focus on theft.

0