Submitted by Creepy_Toe2680 t3_10ozjk9 in space
Creepy_Toe2680 OP t1_j6hkn5m wrote
The new tech is called a rotating detonation rocket engine, or RDRE. This propulsion system uses detonations to generate thrust. To do this, the tech relies on the accelerating of a supersonic exothermic front, which similarly creates thrust to the way a shockwave travels through the atmosphere after an explosion, which could make deep space travel easier to build for.
The point of the design is to use less fuel while also providing more thrust than the current propulsion systems that NASA and other rocket-building companies rely on. Using less fuel makes it easier to prepare these spacecraft for deep space travel, as you can mete out smaller amounts of fuel that won’t weigh down the rocket when it is lifting off.
With the success of this test, NASA is now looking at building a working, fully reusable 10,00-pound RDRE that it can then compare to the performance of traditional liquid rocket engines – like those used in the Space Launch System. If those tests prove successful, too, and the comparisons play out well, it could revolutionize how we think about deep space travel in the future.
This isn’t the only way that NASA is looking at revolutionizing deep space travel. The space agency is reportedly looking into nuclear-powered spacecraft, which would allow spacecraft to travel further distances without needing liquid fuel. It would also make the journey to Mars significantly shorter, from six months to just 45 days.
by Joshua Hawkins (not me)
corsairealgerien t1_j6hn22i wrote
>It would also make the journey to Mars significantly shorter, from six months to just 45 days.
Is this with RDRE or the proposed nuclear-powered system?
Creepy_Toe2680 OP t1_j6hnffp wrote
Nuclear powered
>This isn’t the only way that NASA is looking at revolutionizing deep space travel. The space agency is reportedly looking into nuclear-powered spacecraft, which would allow spacecraft to travel further distances without needing liquid fuel. It would also make the journey to Mars significantly shorter, from six months to just 45 days.
corsairealgerien t1_j6hnt3s wrote
Is there a similar estimate as to the difference RDRE would make? Or is it more the case of RDRE being more efficient in fuel terms, allowing for longer flights, rather than making them faster per se?
danielravennest t1_j6ih89p wrote
In theory the RDRE would improve chemical rocket efficiency by about 10%. There is a finite amount of energy in any fuel/oxidizer combination set by the chemistry. Regular rocket engines use a turbopump to push the ingredients into a combustion chamber at high pressure. The expansion of the resulting hot gas is what turns into thrust.
The RDRE feeds the ingredients at lower pressure, and uses a detonation to create the high pressure for expansion. The energy otherwise used to run the turbopumps is then directly used for thrust. Turbopumps generally tap off some of the fuel and oxidizer flow to power themselves.
ProgressBartender t1_j6jsmk4 wrote
It’s all about exhaust velocity, there’s just a limit to have fast a combusting gas will expand out of your nozzle. Faster velocities can be reached with Ion engines, nuclear pulse engines or other future technologies.
[deleted] t1_j6imp08 wrote
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danielravennest t1_j6io6qc wrote
> Bakugo's Howitzer Impact
Not familiar enough with manga physics to answer your question. I only do physics for this world :-).
rawbleedingbait t1_j6joy60 wrote
Okay that's fine, but why haven't we been looking into spirit bomb technology?
[deleted] t1_j6kvfst wrote
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dave200204 t1_j6ll589 wrote
A person's chi just doesn't provide enough energy to power a rocket, IRL.
A Chi Chi powered engine might at least give you a ballistic trajectory.
[deleted] t1_j6j2huv wrote
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[deleted] t1_j6jrqpf wrote
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zcleghern t1_j6jpnpq wrote
What the heck did i just read
Caboose_Juice t1_j6kvl32 wrote
from what i gather, no. RDRE is basically sourcing its fuel pressure from detonations rather than a turbo pump, eliminating an auxiliary system that consumes energy. i’m not sure about anime
AlmennDulnefni t1_j6jm5pz wrote
Those are the same thing if you have the same thrust. More efficient means less fuel mass means more acceleration from a given thrust.
Creepy_Toe2680 OP t1_j6how4h wrote
uhh looks like i have to do some research and math here soo..
i am gonna use the second one (but i don't know if it is talking about the vehicle or the wave.)
distance from mars (130,000,000 km)
speed of detonating engine = 2km/s
so, 130000000/2= 65000000 seconds = 752.31481481 days or 2 years and 22 days.
not sure don't quote me on this.
edit: YES I knew it i was right that i was wrong!
wgp3 t1_j6iebfv wrote
Unfortunately that's just all wrong. The part you took from the second source isn't even about the rotating detonation engine but the detonation pulse jet engine. Maybe the exhaust velocities are the same but I doubt it. And the figures used aren't even the actual exhaust velocities. That's the speed of the Shockwave from the detonation and the speed of the wave from deflagration.
But rocket engines use something called a de laval nozzle. Designed for the flow to speed up to Mach 1 at the throat and then go supersonic out the back. So the exhaust velocity of a typical rocket engine is already in the several km/s range. For example, rs25 has an exhaust velocity of about 4 km/s. Twice that of the figure you used for the detonation engine.
You can't easily just take an exhaust velocity and calculate how long a trip to mars would take. The exhaust velocity is not a limit on how fast the rocket can go. It's more about showing its efficiency. Higher exhaust velocities are more efficient. This is also measured in a term called Isp, specific impulse. Which is why ion thrusters are so efficient. They cam have effective exhaust velocities of about 40 km/s.
With effective exhaust velocity (which I'm not sure 2km/s is it for an rde) you'd at least need the initial (or wet mass, aka fully fueled rocket mass) and final mass (dry mass, mass after burning all propellant) to get the total delta v from the rocket equation. That would give you a rough idea of where the rocket can get you. The more delta v the faster you can get somewhere.
danielravennest t1_j6ii1ae wrote
That's not how rockets work. Vehicle speed changes as your run the engine and produce thrust (push). Earth and Mars already are in orbit around the Sun. To get to Mars, you have to change your orbit so the other end crosses Mars' orbit at the same time Mars is at that point.
corsairealgerien t1_j6hppu5 wrote
2 years and 22 days? But the original quote said it takes 6 months to get to Mars at the moment?
Creepy_Toe2680 OP t1_j6hpwar wrote
various factors affect this such as vehicle size and many more
maybe my calculation is wrong.
buffetcaptain t1_j6hup2p wrote
The distance to Mars changes depending on the respective orbits, at the closest point it's about half that.
Testimones t1_j6lv9yr wrote
No no, you have it all wrong, the planets are all fixed to transparent spheres rotating around Earth, even the old greeks knew that!
LegitimateGift1792 t1_j6mynsv wrote
I gave you an upvote even though you did not use the obligatory /s. It was the transparent spheres i liked the best.
mvpilot172 t1_j6idy94 wrote
It stills needs liquid fuel though doesn’t it? Just does not need an oxidizer so it saves that portion of liquid fuel.
cjameshuff t1_j6iswvx wrote
Yes, that part is completely wrong. Nuclear rockets still use propellant. Nuclear thermal rockets use about half as much by mass as the best chemical rockets, but they only get their peak performance with LH2, which takes up about 5 times as much volume for the same amount of mass. A nuclear thermal spacecraft will be a big pile of propellant tanks (likely drop tanks so you don't have to carry empty tank mass around) strapped together with a nuclear rocket engine at the back and a small payload tacked onto the front.
The "45 days" claim appears to be in reference to the "wave rotor" stuff that's been getting massively overhyped. Basically, as described, they propose sticking a widget between the nuclear reactor and the nozzle that somehow doubles the specific impulse while halving the flow rate.
This means doubling the power output of the reactor. Since the power output of the reactor is already limited by the need to keep it from melting, and the reactor is cooled by the propellant flow which you've just cut in half, it's not clear how this doesn't result in the reactor, well, melting. Also, even if it worked, doubling the specific impulse isn't nearly enough of a gain to allow a 45 day trip to Mars.
They then throw in nuclear-electric propulsion, which requires heat exchange loops, many megawatts of electrical generation capacity, giant radiator arrays, and arrays of ion thrusters. They assume all this can be done "with minimal addition of dry mass", and this is how they double the performance again to get their 4000 s number. However, it doesn't actually appear to have anything to do with the wave rotor.
NASA's giving one guy $12500 to look at it. It's not taking anyone to Mars any time soon.
Worldofbirdman t1_j6kxwsf wrote
I'm sure they could figure out a way to use the temperature of outside the space craft for cooling. As soon as I read your comment I did a quick look and it's -455f or something similar. I guess an issue could be heat exchange from a vacuum to whatever the cooling system is, but that's above my brain grade.
Edit: temperature I'm referring to is the vacuum of space.
Phoenica t1_j6l207z wrote
> I guess an issue could be heat exchange from a vacuum to whatever the cooling system is, but that's above my brain grade.
That's sort of the whole problem though. Whatever particles are around in a near-vacuum might be very cold, but there are also very very few of them. There just isn't anything to exchange the heat to. A vacuum is an insulator, that's how Thermos bottles work for example.
andrew_calcs t1_j6lbekx wrote
The problem with space being cold is that it’s also empty. You know how a windy day at 40 degrees out feels much colder than when it’s 20 degrees out but with no wind? Take that to its logical extreme. Things do cool down in space, but not by convection or conduction so it’s very slow.
-Prophet_01- t1_j6lliz1 wrote
Heat exchange in vacuum largely works with a different principle and is much, much less efficient. Without other molecules to transfer heat to, we're left with black body radiation. Lower efficiency means bigger radiators. It's basically trying to cool down by giving off infrared light.
Something that could be done with a small coolant loop through a river or a glorified AC on earth, requires large sail-like structures in space (sails because it maximizes the surface to throw out that thermal radiation).
Karcinogene t1_j6klrbl wrote
The thermal nuclear engine has propellant, technically not fuel. It's not combusted, just ejected backwards at high speed. It's gets used up, but it's not a source of energy.
Jobotics t1_j6ls3fu wrote
The detonation engine still uses both fuel and oxidizer. It isn't nuclear. The nuclear engine was just mentioned at the end as another engine being worked on.
Tylerdirtyn t1_j6lbc24 wrote
That's a hell of a starting point. I bet within a decade they get it from 45 days to 5 if they aren't already capable now. We usually find out about new technology 2 decades after the government gets a hold of it.
newtoallofthis2 t1_j6j8k6v wrote
So dusting off the Orion project plans?
urmomaisjabbathehutt t1_j6ho8ye wrote
this is an engine showcasing newer material manufacturing tecnics such as additive manufacturing, these tecnics allow more resilience and temperatures needed for this type of engine
in theory ths will allow a type of engine that is simpler and more efficient but it has its own challenges, for instance solving instabilities
I-Pop-Bubbles t1_j6ikx5k wrote
Integza has a really neat video about RDE, and in addition to going over some of the science behind it, he makes a homemade one. It's very cool.
1SweetChuck t1_j6iyowy wrote
Scott Manley has a video on the subject as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG_Eh0J_4_s
Hampamatta t1_j6lt7er wrote
Was about to say integza just recently made a video about this.
Dude_Oner t1_j6m4byn wrote
Whats the vid, very interesting. Thanks for linking it.
Parliamen7 t1_j6jnmsm wrote
Nowadays everybody wanna talk like they got something to say But nothing comes out when they move their lips Just a bunch of gibberish And motherfuckers act like they forgot about RDRE
grchelp2018 t1_j6je9au wrote
> It would also make the journey to Mars significantly shorter, from six months to just 45 days.
What about a mission to places like Neptune?
internetlad t1_j6jugzb wrote
Uh just go to California it's right near the ocean smh
ButtPlugJesus t1_j6lstfw wrote
Assuming the same relative time decrease, 3 years
dependency_break t1_j6m3t8h wrote
that's totally manageable, or at least within reach once we sort out renewable food, necessities, etc
could go three threes. 3 to get there, 3 to stay do shit, 3 to return. i'm sure there's people who would sacrifice just under a decade of their life for that experience
Rowlandum t1_j6meiuu wrote
My kids are bored after 30mins in the car. I won't be sailing them on a 6 year round trip to Neptune
curiousauruses t1_j6isdwg wrote
Does this mean the scify art where spaceships emit little rings from their exhaust isn't that far off?
a10t2 t1_j6jvqt1 wrote
The "blue glow" type of propulsion is probably an ion engine, which is essentially just propellant + electricity. From a sci-fi perspective you'd want to generate that electricity with a fusion reactor.
Hampamatta t1_j6lthgq wrote
Theoretically ion engines are the pinnacle of propulsion. Far more efficient than normal combustion engines. And doesn't satellites already use small ion engines for realignment?
Earthfall10 t1_j6lv6wv wrote
Eh, there are other electric engine options that are better than ion engines, such as plasma engines or mass drivers. And if power isn't a limiting factor the ultimate in propellent efficiency is a photon rocket, aka a light bulb. No need to carry propellent, though you need 300 megawatts of photons to get a pathetic newton of thrust, so whatever reactor is powering it will need a shit ton of fuel. Though if you're using a laser array to push a mirrored sail that power plant can remain on the ground.
FrozenChocoProduce t1_j6mb7oo wrote
I remember reading about a fusion reactor variant, that, while not ouputting a net gain, might be used (while using up porpellant) to accelerate particles in a rocket engine (usable only in the vacuum of space)...and some well-funded startup already developing this?
andrew_calcs t1_j6lb24j wrote
> nuclear-powered spacecraft, which would allow spacecraft to travel further distances without needing liquid fuel
Nuclear thermal rockets still use a liquid fuel. There still has to be some mechanism for momentum transfer, and that means shooting something out the back of the rocket really fast.
Specifically, NTR thrusters use hydrogen superheated from passing over a nuclear reactor. Exhaust velocity of tested variants from the 60s and 70s were up to roughly twice the exhaust velocity of typical chemical propulsion systems.
The disadvantages are the ones you’d expect: putting a nuclear reactor on top of a giant controlled explosion is risky, and mounting a nuclear reactor makes the engine weight significantly higher so thrust to weight ratios are much lower. Still, it’s expected they would provide a significant performance advantage if engineered to fruition.
Hampamatta t1_j6ltpxi wrote
Nuclear propulsion would likely need to be assembled in space and when needed, the spacecraft would need to attach to it in orbit. Critical malfunction tends to happen in atmosphere.
ThatDoesNotRefute t1_j6me6b0 wrote
Hey I'm the guy that approves this shit, I'm not at my desk right now so if you guys could just go ahead and get started that would be great.
CrackyKnee t1_j6k22we wrote
Shockwave through atmosphere? How does that enables travel through deep space possible? Wouldn't you miss atmosphere there?
Caboose_Juice t1_j6kwf4c wrote
shockwaves are sent through the fuel as it’s combusted
[deleted] t1_j6ixewr wrote
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Linktry t1_j6j68q2 wrote
Reminds be of the sonic burst from learn how to fly
[deleted] t1_j6k9fm0 wrote
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wiwalsh t1_j6kcccw wrote
But did they measure thrust and ISP? This has been the issue with testing I’m aware of so far.
CraftsyDad t1_j6kkmu1 wrote
How do we know you’re not Joshua Hawkins?
WilyDeject t1_j6klz44 wrote
I watched a YouTube video on these recently and they are something else for sure! Interesting and exciting stuff.
Interesting-Space966 t1_j6lc9cr wrote
Another 20-25 years and 60 billion before they got something that can lift off…
But its all money well spent, we all get to spend 30 seconds watching a rocket take off on live tv, that’s if we can afford cable or internet access of course…
ThatDoesNotRefute t1_j6mem29 wrote
No chance look at what we accomplished via nuclear propulsion in the 50s and 60s. The tech and and tooling we have now, combined with the new space race I'll be shocked if a unmanned- spacecraft doesn't fly past voyager in the next 15.
MikeTheGamer2 t1_j6lkjzv wrote
I fell like I've heard of this before, somewhere.
Chaff5 t1_j6lq1h1 wrote
Wow a 45 day trip to Mars... that's absolutely incredible.
[deleted] t1_j6m88t2 wrote
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[deleted] t1_j6mdg9v wrote
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RickAdtley t1_j6mxtvy wrote
Looking forward to the private spacecraft companies appropriating this and saying that "the free market" gave us deep space travel.
NoSoupForYouRuskie t1_j6nq7h8 wrote
They are also funding research into EM drives and resonance drives!
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