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no_step t1_ja7guc1 wrote

Scopes' involvement in the so-called Scopes Monkey Trial came about after the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) announced that it would finance a test case challenging the constitutionality of the Butler Act if it could find a Tennessee teacher who was willing to act as a defendant.

A band of businessmen in Dayton, Tennessee, led by engineer and geologist George Rappleyea, saw this as an opportunity to get publicity for their town, and they approached Scopes.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_T._Scopes

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Landlubber77 t1_ja7gzfq wrote

His great grandson was just recently arrested for the exact same thing at the same school.

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Juggsernaut t1_ja7h4nz wrote

And they're trying to bring back the "good ol' days". Beware brothers and sisters

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jayessell t1_ja7h6cs wrote

See the motion picture 'Inherit the Wind'.

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GrimJudas t1_ja7i8tn wrote

To be honest he was trying to teach it to the inbreed folks from TN…

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monocromatica t1_ja7m88n wrote

I'm baffled! I thought that the theory of evolution was prohibited in the US to this day! OK OK... just in the bible belt states

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ChrisARippel t1_ja7mhmh wrote

The linked article describes several ironies.

  • The Dayton, Tennessee high school's biology textbook endorsed evolution as a version of eugenics promoting the superiority of the white race.

  • William Jennings Bryan opposed evolution because of its frequent association to eugenics and Social Darwinism.

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No-Owl9201 t1_ja7nbfn wrote

There's a whole heap of politicians in our government that are just so ridiculous that you've got wonder why evolution brought us such creatures, creatures so strange they reject the very notion of evolution itself instead having beliefs based on misinterpreting some dusty old books

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Mammoth-Mud-9609 t1_ja7or8h wrote

America seems to be heading backwards towards this ignorant era again.

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ArOnodrim t1_ja7qxen wrote

Confederacy and education are mutually exclusive.

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foo-jitsoo t1_ja7rrjq wrote

Replying to No-Owl9201 (#2,054,696)

Ok, not to be an asshole, but your comment ironically displays a lack of understanding of what evolution actually means in order to make a rather tired and overused joke about rejecting the theory of evolution in favor of a religious explanation for life.

I say this as an atheist and somebody who is probably on "your side" politically - that's dumb.

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foo-jitsoo t1_ja7s4pn wrote

Replying to Mammoth-Mud-9609 (#2,055,010)

“I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance.”

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Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World, 1996

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Magmagan t1_ja7xexf wrote

Replying to no_step (#2,053,201)

Also, god damn the Butler Act. The whole debacle above happened in 1925... The law was only repealed in 1967! No wonder why we are so divided and ignorant to this day, this was so recent

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KuhlThing t1_ja7y6hr wrote

It's really funny that the religious right still elevates "intellectuals" that have no better arguments than "if we came from monkeys, then why is they still monkeys?"

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foo-jitsoo t1_ja7ze2y wrote

Replying to No-Owl9201 (#2,057,084)

Dumb *can* be funny, and your comment *did* make me exhale thru my nose a bit as I shook my head.

In response to your light-hearted reply, I have change my downvote of your initial comment to an upvote. You are welcome.

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gutterbrain73 t1_ja81073 wrote

I'd say subby isn't from the USA, because this has been part of school curriculum for decades...

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ElfMage83 t1_ja81fv7 wrote

Well, yes. This is taught early in schools.

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mojoegojoe t1_ja81nwa wrote

Replying to Magmagan (#2,057,087)

It's crazy how political structure such as this has such ramifications throughout the whole environment. He didn't even reach the class he was getting sued for-

"After the trial, he admitted to reporter William Kinsey Hutchinson "I didn't violate the law,"[8] explaining that he had skipped the evolution lesson and that his lawyers had coached his students to go on the stand;"

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0ttr t1_ja82bx0 wrote

https://www.thelastarchive.com/season-2/episode-1-monkey-business

You should listen to this podcast...because it adds a very important twist. While I support the teaching of evolution over biblical creation in schools, it's a very important thing to note that AT THAT TIME eugenics and evolution were very tightly entwined, and Scopes taught from a textbook that included it. William Jennings Bryan alluded to this in his defense.

Here's a quote from another link discussing this: "John Scopes admitted to having taught lessons out of George William Hunter’s textbook “A Civic Biology.” If you’ve never read this book, it might shock you. Hunter divided mankind into five races, concluding that the highest race was “the Caucasians, represented by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America.” In a different section of the book, he discussed what should be done to people with inferior traits:

“If such people were lower animals, we would probably kill them off to prevent them from spreading. Humanity will not allow this, but we do have the remedy of separating the sexes in asylums or other places and in various ways preventing intermarriage and the possibilities of perpetuating such a low and degenerate race.”

So you can see why religious and moral people might have objections to evolution being taught and where people interpreting the science (and some scientists themselves) had erred here... this kind of thinking, well, you know where it led. https://www.timesnews.net/news/education/the-forgotten-link-between-the-scopes-trial-and-eugenics/article_45390ee2-0448-11ed-96b9-3fd02a64a683.html

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marcololol t1_ja841ih wrote

This demonstrates the level of intelligence among the American population at this time (low compared to Europe, even though there were some of the same people). We’re still recovering from this beginning

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clutzyninja t1_ja84ztm wrote

The only surprise about this was that it was so long ago. I'm sure many southern states would still be locking people up for this if they could

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turkeysandwich1982 t1_ja86uoh wrote

I remember reading the book about it, Summer of the Gods, several years ago, great book by the way, and I remember thinking it was funny that during the trial there were souvenir stands that sprung up around the courthouse with people trying to sell stuffed monkeys and other tat.

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Jstrangways t1_ja87hf5 wrote

Did you say John Scopes, a high school teacher from Florida in 2023?

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kimthealan101 t1_ja87i1n wrote

Replying to ChrisARippel (#2,054,521)

Eugenics is how you say 'racist' in intellectual society. It is still present in intellectual society. It is easy to subconsciously project your values onto the things you study. Much of what we think about eqyptian mummies and pyramids is based on 18th and 19th century ideas about death in European society.

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NotHosaniMubarak t1_ja892r5 wrote

One really nice thing about this sub is that we get to see people learning about stuff.

The Scopes trial is really well known and because people like OP are learning about it now it'll keep being well known. It's like watching knowledge being handed down through the generations.

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browneyedgirl65 t1_ja89evr wrote

The Scopes Monkey Trial. Inherit the Wind (fictionalized). Etc. It was absolutely a sensation at the time. Learned about it in school in the 80s.

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CleaveIshallnot t1_ja8boea wrote

I thought Scopes bravely taught this solely for academic reasons & on principle.

But in reality it was funded by a coal magnate to put Dayton "on the map...& drum up business $$"?

Ah well.

All's well that ends well.

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imbarbdwyer t1_ja8cwk0 wrote

Wow, and about 100 years later, Tennessee legislators are passing laws restricting so many freedoms we are losing count.

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rosstedfordkendall t1_ja8i411 wrote

Replying to no_step (#2,053,201)

That was the big surprise for me when I learned about it more in depth. In grade school, it was presented as "religion vs. evolution." Then later in life I learned it was mostly staged (at least initially) and there was more nuance to it. The fact that the textbook also advocated eugenics was something that didn't get mentioned a lot.

Inherit the Wind portrays it more straightforward, but was using it as a metaphor for McCarthyism.

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aknabi t1_ja8j61h wrote

Oh that’s soon to be a daily thing again in red states

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Antknee2099 t1_ja8lsel wrote

Trials of the Monkey: An Accidental Memoir by Matthew Chapman is an excellent read on the subject. He's a great-great grandson of Charles Darwin. The book is one part historical recollection of the event and one part journey he makes to a more modern-day Dayton, TN.

My family is from Rhea County and many still live in the Dayton area. They still have a "Monkey Days" festival there every summer complete with parade. Lots of bananas. They celebrate it as a victory over evolution and evil.

Bryan College is there, and it's ridiculous. Named for William Bryan, it continues to churn out indoctrinated youth every year. The education you get from the place should be suspect to anyone who is not trying to be a preacher.

Of course not everyone in Dayton are bad; The town is just seriously depressed economically, socially, and intellectually. There are a dozen Daytons in every state, no matter how progressive and blue they are. It should remind us of our shared past, how much still needs to be done for the good of humanity, and just how difficult true ignorance can be to root out and repair.

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Darkstar1988 t1_ja8nlsx wrote

Replying to 0ttr (#2,058,410)

I highly doubt this was the reason for that. The bible was used to justify slavery and also an instruktonbook on that matter after all, I think this podcast is trying to rewrite history like the Southern states in your country. And religious and moral.... you make me laugh.

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MassholeLiberal56 t1_ja8ozkj wrote

They are still arresting/firing teachers down south to this day. Sherman didn’t wake them up enough I suppose.

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popsickle_in_one t1_ja8s28k wrote

Replying to 0ttr (#2,058,410)

Selective breeding was known about long before Darwin proposed his theory of Evolution.

Eugenics merely applies that knowledge to humans. You don't need to know a thing about evolution.

The Nazis you allude to actually rejected evolution as the origin of species.

Understanding evolution shows how eugenics (and indeed selective breeding) is actually bad for the species in question, and doesn't create a super race. (look at how many purebred dogs have genetic deficiencies compared to mongrels)

People could twist their racism to fit a narrative and claim that was evolution. Darwin himself was very much anti-racist though and his theory shows that there isn't a superior breed of humans.

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Ronnyalpuck t1_ja8ws8w wrote

The trial was deliberately staged in order to attract publicity to the small town of Dayton, Tennessee, where it was held. Scopes was unsure whether he had ever actually taught evolution, but he incriminated himself deliberately so the case could have a defendant.

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p38-lightning t1_ja8ytyr wrote

100 years later and it could happen again if Republican Bible thumpers have their way.

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0ttr t1_ja92ed2 wrote

Replying to Darkstar1988 (#2,064,022)

It was not *the* reason, but it was *a* reason. You can read Bryan's own writings and see it quite clearly. It's in the source notes for the podcast. His moral arguments were quite valid. And in this case, the science on eugenics was wrong.

The lesson to be learned here is: things are almost always more complicated than history makes them out to be, and not everyone was the moron and genius that they seemed to be.

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0ttr t1_ja92vxn wrote

Replying to Darkstar1988 (#2,065,326)

Research shows that any group of people that identifies around a common ideology becomes more insular and exclusive over time. That includes religious groups, but atheists as well. It's a human trait. Only individual curiosity and humility overcomes that--again, proven by research.

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whozitwhatzit t1_ja9318n wrote

There's a fantastic brewery there in Dayton called Monkey Town Brewing Company. Always stop by there on my way to Watts Bar lake.

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0ttr t1_ja94jlm wrote

Replying to popsickle_in_one (#2,065,218)

However, it was very popular at the time, and no doubt evolution reinforced it and was used as a justification for it, hence the presence of it in a high school biology text. Many, many highly educated people supported eugenic ideas all the way up to US Supreme Court justices. It was not just racism--it was any kind of character or physical flaw.
And of course, the understanding of evolution, in an era prior to understanding gene encoding, chromosomes, and DNA, was considerably less sophisticated than it is now, again, certainly down at the level of a high school text.

You are arguing about what we know now, and what we know in hindsight, and that's fine, but that's not what they "knew" then. Your statements literally contradict the text quoted out of the book used in the case.

Clearly that was not the only reason evolution was being objected to, but it was definitely a reason, and convoluting creationism with the teaching of Christian morality is certainly a mishmash of theology, but it is clashing with a mishmash of science and pseudoscience that was in a mainstream accepted high school biology text at the time.

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popsickle_in_one t1_ja9d7u7 wrote

Replying to 0ttr (#2,068,616)

The book is wrong. Evolution from the start discredited eugenics or any notion that there were superior races. How could there be if all types of humans had been evolving for the same amount of time?

People supported eugenics because they were racist, not because the theory of evolution ever taught them it was a good idea. People would have manipulated the ideas to fit racism, but it wasn't the cause, and studying it, even then, would have led to the opposite conclusion that the racists were trying to make.

People already knew about selective breeding, selecting against deformities in people has been present since ancient times. Darwin did not introduce this concept.

Also, the idea that Christian morality stood against eugenics at the time was laughable, since the both the British Eugenics Education Society, and the American Eugenics Society counted top clergymen among their members, and modified their message to appeal to Christians.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4001825/

Meanwhile eugenics was being consistently denounced by biologists and anthropologists, and they were especially concerned with the unscientific ideals eugenicists were spouting in order to propagate their message (such as picking undesirable 'traits' that weren't even biological in nature ie committing crimes)

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0ttr t1_ja9g1ix wrote

Replying to popsickle_in_one (#2,070,999)

Well, of course the book is wrong, no one in 2023 is disputing that a book used by a teacher in the 1920s era is wrong!

Clergyman were indeed eugenicists. So were scientists. Bryan was a Christian who was not a eugenicist and made arguments based on those principles, just like some scientist made their arguments for and against. So to argue that science was not tainted by it is blatantly false. Henry F. Osborn was a eugenicist and president of the AMNH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Fairfield_Osborn. Charles B. Davenport, zoologist, eugenicist. Henry Crampton, president NYAS, major evolutionary biologist, eugenicist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Crampton

So I think you need to adjust your thinking. The Nazis drew upon American eugenics research because it was so "thorough".

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FarradayL t1_ja9u2y6 wrote

The US was and continues to be a toilet.

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iPod3G t1_ja9wzof wrote

This will be Florida in 2025.

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aneeta96 t1_jaa1j83 wrote

This is what they mean when they say Make America Great Again.

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2022userestmyballs t1_jaa833z wrote

Replying to HPmoni (#2,065,589)

I firmly believe the stupidest people reproduce the fastest and bear all the consequences for that action. Genetic intelligence is separating humans into survival strategy’s imo. The smart reproduce slow and the dumb reproduce fast.

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ty_kanye_vcool t1_jaab7md wrote

TIL The Japanese Military attacked Pearl Harbor, Hawaii in December 1941

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