Comments
KesselRunIn14 t1_iy0gbt2 wrote
Honestly the title of this post is terrible, as is the amount of misinformation in this thread.
The purpose of a back tension release is to ensure the the arrow leaves the bow from the same point every time. It's got nothing to do with it being a surprise. If a compound archer is surprised by the release they are 100% not a "pro archer". A professional competing archer will have shot thousands of arrows and will know exactly when the arrow is going to release.
They can be a useful aid for people suffering target panic but they are in no way a solution.
Edit: Myriad of typos...
OtterProper t1_iy0mu3a wrote
As a former competition archer, I completely concur. I clicked through to state precisely this.
muuus t1_iy0m88e wrote
Classic TIL. This sub is mostly misinformation/manipulation/unsupported claims.
[deleted] t1_iy0piw7 wrote
[deleted]
TurChunkin t1_iy0scql wrote
Yeah, well as someone who uses and hunts with one of these releases, I don't agree with their critique. IMO the surprise part is in fact an important element of how they are used.
incomingKiddo t1_iy1clat wrote
Well, they did say professional... and I would wager that hunting and competitive archery are very different
escapingdarwin t1_iy1exqm wrote
Many “factual” and “scientific” reddit posts are garbage info, be careful what you believe. The ones that say “could be”, “might be” are even worse.
a_drive t1_iy0q7ly wrote
Source?
iobeson t1_iy2kozw wrote
Tomato
but_a_smoky_mirror t1_iy0p7oa wrote
Says who????
Seto_Sora t1_iy0rmoq wrote
Incorrect. "Classic TIL" is an interesting post with limited info (usually due to character count or language barrier), and experts weighing in with more info or even more interesting info in the comments. The OP you commented on is "classic TIL." Your second sentence is not.
shhhhhhh_ t1_iy0u64k wrote
The real TIL is always in the comments!!
Carighan t1_iy157z8 wrote
Yeah, my ex uses them, and the title could not be further from the truth.
longtimegoneMTGO t1_iy125uy wrote
I think the issue here may come down to terminology.
The physiological component here isn't really surprise, but conscious vs unconscious action. In short, as you start the action of letting go your body will automatically tense your muscles a bit in anticipation of the shock from releasing the bow string. Using a release device avoids that, you don't tense right before release because your muscles aren't aware that you are starting to release.
On a mental level you know to a pretty good degree of accuracy when the release is going to happen, but the exact moment is uncertain enough that you don't automatically tense in preparation for it.
Intensityintensifies t1_iy2km9a wrote
Personally the arrow randomly going off would create more of a reaction than the knowledge I was releasing it. Then again I’m super flinchy.
YellowGetRekt t1_iy2vkuz wrote
Well the reaction from the arrow going off randomly will be after its already fired and at that point the reaction doesnt matter
monsterblood10 t1_iy12li9 wrote
Just out of curiosity, how would modern archers compare against historical ones like the mongols/longbowmen etc? Do we have better range, accuracy etc?
htp-di-nsw t1_iy1uba1 wrote
Modern equipment is insanely better.
However, modern archery technique is entirely either entertainment-focused either trick shooting or target shooting where hitting precise spots is the only thing that matters, while archers from history would have been using archery in life or death situations.
In reality, neither Lars Anderson doing backflips while hitting erratic thrown targets with a bow whose draw weight would barely penetrate human skin nor the entire cadre of Olympic archers who fire 6 arrows in 2 minutes would be anywhere near as dangerous in a real battle as a typical Mongol warrior or any historical archer who participated in wars.
You see, you can't actually fire like Lars and still kill someone, especially through armor. But you also can't spend 20 seconds per arrow aiming at a moving target trying to kill you back. When you're putting arrows into a person's body, a hit that's an inch or two off center isn't going to matter.
invent_or_die t1_iy14yiy wrote
Modern equipment is light years ahead of anything they had. Gotta believe techniques are far better as well.
NorthernerWuwu t1_iy1pta4 wrote
As a counterpoint though, relatively few people today make a career out of it while archers might well have devoted their entire lives from a young age to the skill back in antiquity.
Obviously the modern equipment is orders of magnitude better but if both were using the same stuff, I'm not so certain the results would be the same.
TheDBryBear t1_iy2kegb wrote
also entirely different purpose - archers would not be singular they would be firing in a unit and be on the move
[deleted] t1_iy2ucqr wrote
[removed]
DiarrheaDrippingCunt t1_iy149i1 wrote
🤓
TurChunkin t1_iy0s81z wrote
Sorry, but saying these having "nothing to do with a surprise" is just flat out not true. Maybe you could make the argument that is true for pros, but in general use, the surprise element is a real component.
KesselRunIn14 t1_iy0wmu1 wrote
I mean... You should never been surprised when your arrow is released... At best it's going to cause inconsistencies, at worst it's just flat out dangerous. If you've shot even a few hundred arrows you should still be able to anticipate when the arrow is going to release. If that is not the case, it is almost certainly down to form, which is 100% fixable.
> Maybe you could make the argument that is true for pros
This article is discussing pros... It should still stand for any experienced archer.
TurChunkin t1_iy11wfa wrote
The "surprise" is down to milli or micro seconds of difference, it does exist, and no it is not dangerous. Regardless of whether or not someone should or shouldn't be surprised by a tension release and your own opinions of their use, it still happens. Maybe it's just semantics and how you define the word "surprise." In my experience it allows you to practice archery in a flow state similar to throwing a ball or playing ping pong. You do the action and the thing happens.
I'll try to explain from my perspective (for what it's worth). Not sure if you have extensive use shooting one of these releases, but when aiming at a target I'm sure you can imagine seeing the sight pin "bobble" over the bullseye (or equivalent). It's impossible for us to hold a sight perfectly steady and always held dead on the target, but what we are able to do it to train ourselves to adjust and readjust and constantly pull the sight pin back onto target after drifting. This means that the exact moment the pin is dead perfectly on the target isn't quite the proper moment to pull a trigger, because you will inevitably drift away again a short (micro second) later, and now you have just pulled the trigger while the pin isn't on the target.
The surprise element comes into play because that specific micro second in time has been removed from the equation, and you can just focus on the form of the shot, and not the when of pulling the trigger. Since you can train your muscle memory to be constantly adjusting and readjusting to put the pin back on target the exact fraction of a second that happens if the pin was slightly off the target it will be moving back towards dead on even as you execute the shot. This gets removed from conscious thought and becomes reliant on muscle memory to execute.
Not trying to say there is anything wrong with a regular trigger release. Everyone has their own preferences. Honestly I think it's bogus to say one way is right or the other wrong, mostly I just took issue with your claim that there's "no surprise" and especially that there is something dangerous about tension releases.
KesselRunIn14 t1_iy2xtwn wrote
So I 100% understand what you are saying, and I'm glad that a tension release helps you.
With that being said, you are using it wrong I'm afraid, or at least, not in the way that they are intended to be used. If it works for you, that's fine I guess, but if you want to improve as an archer you may want to consider coaching. It's not how the pros use them.
As you said, you are constantly drifting when sighting a target, if you want to consistently hit the x ring of a target, you don't want to be releasing when you are drifting away from it.
The release should be a conscious decision. You come up to full draw, and when you want to release you do a final squeeze of your back muscles which causes the arrow to release. It is very similar to the way a clicker is used in recurve.
​
>mostly I just took issue with your claim that there's "no surprise" and especially that there is something dangerous about tension releases.
I can see how you might have read what I said. I 100% did not mean to suggest tension releases are dangerous. It is my release of choice and I always encourage my students to use a tension release if they feel comfortable with one.
benjvar22 t1_iy1gjf6 wrote
good explanation, sorry they downvoted you
ThinLineDefenseCO t1_iy0e3ps wrote
A hinge is a surprise like the 2nd time.... It's not a surprise after you practice.
This title is like saying it's a surprise when you press the gas pedal and car accelerates
Gasp no way
nowake t1_iy2419f wrote
you haven't driven a junker with a fouled carburetor, have you? lol
leadchipmunk t1_ixyyeqr wrote
>There is no trigger to punch or button to push. The only way for the shot to break is for the shooter to slowly pull back until, once a certain amount of tension builds up, the bow releases—always to the surprise of the shooter.
How is it a surprise? It releases at the same tension every single time, so you know where you have to pull back to for it to release. Once you get used to your bow and release, it'll be just as consistent and expectable as pulling a trigger/pushing a button.
Raeandray t1_ixz4are wrote
My guess is its more about pulling on the bow as the focus instead of pulling a trigger.
The tension doesn’t make sense. Everyone uses compound bows, so there’s less tension at full draw than while you’re pulling back. It sounds like with these releases you draw, aim, then pull back until it fires at some point.
That honestly sounds much more smooth to me. One of the hardest issues with a standard release is eliminating that slight jerk when you pull the trigger with your finger. Pulling straight back there’s no jerk at all.
Zgoos t1_ixz8o4h wrote
Compounds have less tension at full draw, but if you pull a little beyond full draw, the tension increases again very quickly. It's called the "back wall". Pulling into that back wall, the increasing tension is what activates the release.
Raeandray t1_ixza8lz wrote
Looking into it further, it looks like the "back wall" is a bit of a preference. Some compound bows have it, others don't. Regardless I've hunted with a compound bow since I was strong enough to pull back the legal weight limit and had no idea this was a thing. Thanks for the info!
Hammer_Thrower t1_ixzx6vf wrote
There's always a wall, otherwise you could just keep pulling. It is when the cams are fully extended and you're actually pulling against the arms. What is adjustable is where a shooter's favored draw point is relative to the wall.
randomLOUDcommercial t1_ixzycir wrote
I mean there are hard walls and soft walls that may be the “preference” you are thinking of? But that is dependent on the bow not the archers (2 archers with the same compound couldn’t have a hard and soft wall). Draw length is adjustable (with in a range) on compounds but is based off your anchor.
Tension releases have a mechanism to “feel” the change in back tension as you squeeze your shoulders together when anchored. (Think of holding a pen skinny ways in between your shoulder blades). That motion creates tension which rotates your hand slightly and that is what causes the release to fire. Otherwise it would release as the archer was drawing due to the physics behind a compound making the heaviest part the initial pull.
mkultra50000 t1_iy3vopd wrote
Turns out just awareness of back tension releases are the only actual surprise.
DonutCola t1_iy0k0xr wrote
Wait do you actually shoot or are you literally learning about archery as you argue? Cause you’re definitely a piece of shit if you just pick fights and then try to figure out why after the fact.
Raeandray t1_iy0vb0r wrote
First, I don't think I've picked a fight with anyone. Second, you seem to have not read the part of my comment where I said:
> I've hunted with a compound bow since I was strong enough to pull back the legal weight limit
Tarnishedcockpit t1_iy0mzvd wrote
i mean, he says he has experience, so doesnt that make you a piece of shit for coming up with some lame ass excuse to diminish his argument just because he didnt know the specific words/science behind it?
Cause if so, then thatd be pretty ironic lol.
shrubs311 t1_iy0yq7s wrote
chill the hell out. they didn't pick a fight, the "worst" thing they did was potentially missing knowledge on something they had experience with but not that specific thing. it's extremely ironic for you to accuse them of being a piece of shit when you're coming in guns blazing
muuus t1_iy0mnz8 wrote
Seriously what the fuck is this guy on about.
He is totally clueless but talks with 100% confidence like he is an expert on the subject.
Raeandray t1_iy0vh9e wrote
The only thing I was unaware of is the "back wall" which I admitted. If I'm "totally clueless" on something else feel free to point it out lol. I've been shooting a compound bow since I was 12, and a practiced with a recurve before that.
donald7773 t1_ixz5xf6 wrote
So compound bows have a set limit on the draw, or how far back you can pull it. You just pull back till there's no more pull left. There's sights to use, after that it's just practice for consistency.
Raeandray t1_ixz66x4 wrote
Right, you’re not pulling the string further back, you’re pulling harder, which adds more tension to the release. Otherwise the tension release would never release, since there’s more tension while drawing than while holding the draw.
could_use_a_snack t1_ixzjaxw wrote
I'm assuming this is for targets that don't move. Randomly firing arrows don't sound like a good hunting tool.
Raeandray t1_ixzllek wrote
In my experience you don’t try to shoot a moving target if you’re actually hunting an animal. Way too hard to not hit something vital. Good hunters don’t want to wound an animal taking a subpar shot.
frothy_pissington t1_ixznmg9 wrote
And “good hunters” seem to be a shrinking demographic...
Deer season started two weeks ago.
Guys have been filtering back to work.
So many stories about booze, drugs, hookers, 4 wheeling, guns, and wounded animals “that weren’t worth tracking”, very few stories about habitat, conservation, and a general appreciation of the outdoors as something to be enjoyed in solitude and preserved.
froggertwenty t1_iy0dvdg wrote
You must be right. The GOOD hunters I know would not be TALKNG about the booze, drugs, and hookers. What happens at deer camp stays at deer camp.
An_Lei_Laoshi t1_ixzo2at wrote
What's 4 wheeling? English isn't my first language
DownstairsB t1_ixzokhr wrote
4 wheeled recreational all terrain vehicle
Edit: i love the 3 different perspectives answering this question
An_Lei_Laoshi t1_ixzoo96 wrote
Thank you
shrubs311 t1_iy0z75m wrote
>Edit: i love the 3 different perspectives answering this question
yes it's hilarious, i also appreciate the person asking thanking all 3 individually
Svenskensmat t1_ixzoo4k wrote
Tale the ATV (four wheeled motorcycle) out in the woods for driving around and having fun.
An_Lei_Laoshi t1_ixzoqwb wrote
Thank you
mythslayer1 t1_ixzp2ym wrote
A massively overpowered 4 wheel machine that is ridden by drunk assholes tearing up the land.
They are not allowed on most public land because of the damage they can do.
An_Lei_Laoshi t1_ixzp6ta wrote
Thank you
StoneTemplePilates t1_iy07xde wrote
Lol, sounds like you just live in the wrong part of the country for it. There are tons of places that off-road vehicles can be enjoyed responsibly and are completely legal on public land.
mythslayer1 t1_iy4kqoi wrote
Many states do not allow 4 wheelers or utv in state forests (which is what we hunt). Federal does not either as far as I know.
StoneTemplePilates t1_iy4p089 wrote
Ok, and many states do allow it, and in fact have designated recreational areas for just that purpose so I'm really not sure what your point is. As far as federal land, have you heard of the bureau of land management? They have literally thousands of miles of backcountry roads where you can go and drive whatever you want on.
Sounds like you're just a killjoy who has some weird issue with motorsports.
tagrav t1_iy0v077 wrote
listening to this old guy at disc golf tell me all he keeps is the backstrap really pissed me off.
trophy hunters are fucking wankers.
Grizknot t1_iy0ascf wrote
Minnesota is wild
frothy_pissington t1_iy0et32 wrote
Michigan
CarrotJuiceLover t1_ixzqxmi wrote
I’m going to piggyback off of u/Raeandray and say a bow in modern times is more comparable to a sniper rifle. You don’t want to shoot a moving target, you wait until you have a clear stationary target.
could_use_a_snack t1_iy0ernp wrote
Probably should have said living target that could move. Seems like a bad idea to not have my shot happen when I want it to.
CarrotJuiceLover t1_iy0gzj5 wrote
Well a typical archery shot takes about 5-8 seconds. You wait for a living target to stop (typically to survey food on the ground) until you have a clear shot behind the shoulder blades, through the heart and lungs. In that amount of time you can settle your shot, aim, and wait for the surprise release to go off. Keep in mind you can also adjust the sensitivity and trigger point of a surprise release device, so that it doesn’t go off too unexpectedly.
TurChunkin t1_iy0qz5o wrote
The "surprise" part is down to a few milliseconds of difference. I use one for hunting, and killed a bull elk my first year bowhunting using this style of release!
HomeHeatingTips t1_ixzpmjd wrote
Who you calling a jerk, pal?
UnderSampled t1_ixzy882 wrote
Who are you calling a pal, dude?
deadfisher t1_iy1fzgm wrote
Who you calling dude, ma'am?
DonutCola t1_iy0jvri wrote
More importantly there is the same exact amount of draw force every single time the jerk is very very very much mitigated by a decent archer who is practiced. People go bow hunting still and have done it a very very very long time. This is like surgically precise shooting. Humans are pretty dang good without the hi tech stuff too. This just makes us better.
corvidae21 t1_iy0ktvz wrote
Yep, been into archery for a long time and my instructors always said, with mechanical releases you want to put pressure on the button and pull with your back until it releases so it surprises you and you don't jerk or grip the bow in anticipation
JamesTheJerk t1_ixzizvz wrote
Or is there...?
CarbonGod t1_iy1bl5q wrote
Everyone uses compounds? Wtf dude?
Raeandray t1_iy1bqvk wrote
I'm talking hunting. I dont follow competitive shooting or anything like that, if they use recurve bows there?
Spazzout22 t1_ixzglzc wrote
I believe it's surprise for the body rather than "surprise" in the standard sense. The idea is that you're doing a single motion that triggers a release rather than that motion plus an anticipatory release of the fingers/trigger pull which can cause the body to jerk. More of a "get ready and it releases on its own when it's in the right place" vs "get ready, then fire".
mobchronik t1_ixzhehx wrote
It’s normally called a “back-tension release”, and it is typically only used in competition shooting with fixed targets. You would never use one hunting because sometimes you have to keep the bow at full draw for a period of time while you find the best shot or wait for other factors. As an archer you aren’t thinking about the tension on the string but instead the tension on your shoulder blades as you bring them together during your shot cycle. Focusing on your body during your shot cycle is what can lead to the “surprise shot”. But yes you still have a general understanding of when the bow will fire, though since there is not a trigger it is highly unlikely for you the “punch” the trigger or push/pull the bow out of alignment with your shot cycle.
Craig_Barcus t1_iy0bv6o wrote
I use a hinge hunting. More comfortable shot cycle for me.
mobchronik t1_iy2ci12 wrote
Nice props to you, that’s a great release but too sketch for me for hunting. I’ve got a shoulder issue and hunt a lot in below freezing temps so a shoulder twitch would make me too concerned to use it. I use a hand release, Bone Collector. Any luck this season?
Craig_Barcus t1_iy4al0x wrote
Not this year. First time in 10 years so far
mobchronik t1_iy93epj wrote
Yeah it’s tough out here in the northwest this year because of fires. Headed out today for 4 days, hopefully late season brings me some luck
mfeens t1_ixzg5ph wrote
I’m not even a good archer. But the idea is that the bow going off is like an explosion and the human mind hates explosions. Your body will shrug your shoulders and close your eyes to try and prepare you for the shock of if. Those movements will make you miss at any real distance.
Again, I don’t fully understand it, but the aiming is easy. Just close one eye and hold you thumb up to any target. You brain just does it. The hard part is not messing it up once it’s aimed.
Wrobot_rock t1_ixzql5w wrote
Don't you have to estimate and compensate for distance, wind, and elevation?
mfeens t1_ixzs83c wrote
Hell yeah you do. So, there are lots of ways to shoot a bow and situations where you can shoot a bow. Some times people are hunting a moving target, so that’s like throwing a rock. You look at your target, big brain math happens in your head and you let it rip. That’s different from shooting a controlled shot, at say a tournament or sometimes while hunting.
When you have time to make a great shot, the distance and wind are judged and you adjust your sight if you thought you needed to. After seeing what the first arrow did you could adjust again.
But the main idea is that you think about it, set your sight or what ever, and then your mind goes back to your shot cycle. It’s way more mental than a lot of folks appreciate. Your not just trying to make the same physical movements each time, but try also thinking the same thoughts each time you shoot. Have fun with that last one haha
Devario t1_iy03vkw wrote
You also can’t be fidgeting with the arrow when it goes off, because it’ll fuck the ballistic arch. I learned that to avoid being scared or surprised, you very slowly squeeze the trigger of once you’re locked on.
CarrotJuiceLover t1_ixzrrnv wrote
It’s more so the fact that your mind is good at noticing patterns. This is why archers that start out don’t have target panic, but it always develops later on down the line. Once you shoot 1000 arrows your mind eventually says “when I see target I must hit button to release arrow”, because you’ve repeated the pattern over and over. It gets to a point where before you can even consciously settle your aim, your subconscious mind sees the target and instantly tells your fingers to press the release button. It’s at this point you have to find a way around your subconscious mind, and that’s why surprise releases are used.
CarrotJuiceLover t1_ixzq6yl wrote
The difference is what actuates the release. In a standard release, you use your fingers (index or thumb) to release the arrow. The problem is that fingers are sensitive and prone to twitchy behavior, which means anticipating the shot leads to premature releases (which we call “target panic”). Your eyes see the target and it tells your twitchy fingers “release the arrow NOW or you’ll run out of time!”. Releasing with the fingers is a conscious decision that eventually becomes an unconscious one due to anxiety, leading to premature shots. A surprise release device (also called a “back tension release”) uses a different muscle group to release the arrow. You see, with a surprise release device us archers are taught to use the muscles in our backs to pull the string (specifically the rhomboid muscle). Flexing the rhomboid is a slow and steady process, since the rhomboid isn’t a twitchy muscle. So what ends up happening is we squeeze our rhomboid muscle which at some point along that flexion of the rhomboid, it triggers the surprise release aid to release the arrow. We don’t consciously know when flexing our back muscle will trigger the release, so we can just focus on the target.
DedlySpyder t1_ixze0jz wrote
My thought is that you have a few and they can be swapped out. So you don't know which one you have
Ibetya t1_ixzmadw wrote
It's almost as if it's for practice to get used to the shock of releasing all that force which could cause you to misfire. As your muscle memory builds, yes, you will get better at knowing exactly when that arrow will fire, but you were also training your brain for the steady release
sam_hammich t1_ixzsed5 wrote
I mean, a jack in the box always pops out at the same point in the song right? And yet it's still surprising. But you're not pressing a button to make it activate, it happens at a point abstracted away from your direct attention. It's always worse beforehand if you slow down and try to predict when it'll happen, so you just keep going without regard for the exact moment it pops. When it pops, if you react, that reaction follows the pop instead of preceding it.
The point is that you train your body to continue with a smooth continuous motion until it lets go on its own, and you train mentally to focus on the draw instead of the release. You aren't in a position where you're anticipating opening your hand and tensing up your body to get ready for the shock.
collonnelo t1_iy0108u wrote
At X tension it is released vs w/o the mechanism they must release optimally at around X(give or take Y). When trying to control it themselves, they attempt to reach X tension but in their attempt to do so they wince since you must purposely release the tension instead of it just having it go on its own. This wince is a reflex to an act you are trying to accomplish (purposely release the tension). This wince is bad for control.
When the surprise mechanism goes off, you still do you natural reflex, but the difference here is that the reflex occurs after the release (a consequence of the act instead of bracing for it) so that miniscule movement should not affect the trajectory as the arrow has already been released.
StoneTemplePilates t1_iy08cj0 wrote
Ah yes, clearly you've figured out what the professionals haven't. Someone should tell them.
designgoddess t1_iy0dwes wrote
Yes. I guess if you keep pulling back it releases eventually but part of becoming skilled is repeating the same motion as exactly as you can. You pull it the same distance to the same place. Like on the photo you pick a place you can feel like your cheek.
kreigklinge t1_iy0njty wrote
These mechanisms don't really release at a specific tension and it's definitely not supposed to be a surprise. They release abruptly as you rotate the handle and with practice, this can make the archer much more consistent as you go from fully drawn to released in a fraction of the time you could releasing the drawn bow with your soft fingers.
When you release a bow with your fingers there is a much higher chance that you impart some force on the string (and bow) which means your arrows aren't going to fly true.
VSMCookies t1_ixzy5x8 wrote
Its probably just a catchy name for the technique
Albino_Bama t1_ixz3neu wrote
It didn’t explicitly say that it releases at the same level of tension every single time. In my mind there’s a small computer that will RNG an a mount of time after you’ve pulled back and then randomly releases. So still a surprise.
basinchampagne t1_ixyzmbq wrote
Not really. That's not how muscle memory works.
Impeccable304 t1_ixz472k wrote
How is this not how muscle memory works? Looking forward to your reply.
basinchampagne t1_ixz5u07 wrote
I read the comment wrong, I actually agree with that last sentence.
It isn't random to an experienced archer; which of course has to do with muscle memory, as you'll probably both conciously and subconciously know when to pull the extra bit to make the arrow release. If anything, it's probably more consistent than a trigger.
dotsalicious t1_ixzo0ki wrote
We used to call these back tension release aids. It's not about being surprised, it's about keeping your form consistent. To make them release you have to rotate them to a preset point so theoretically your draw position is the same each time. At full draw you are meant to keep pulling you shoulders together and this will cause your drawing hand to rotate.You are meant to do the same thing with a trigger release rather than mash the button with your thumb but I found back tension release aids with a click mechanism better. If you are using them you shouldn't be surpriseded unless you really mess up your draw. Happens to everyone and it's usually bye bye arrow
OddEpisode t1_iy0nscm wrote
Your explanation makes much more sense.
A weapon with surprise built in is the unsafe and dumbest take I’ve ever heard.
stevewmn t1_iy1qzzb wrote
This sounds a lot more how it worked for me. I knew there was an angle involved and would draw the bow with just my index and middle finger under tension, then when I was ready to shoot I'd engage the ring and little fingers too, and pull back with the whole hand. It was still a "surprise" release because I was just pulling smoothly instead of effectively pulling a trigger with my ring finger.
Tokishi7 t1_iy2llxg wrote
Especially at 3-D shoots. If it’s a surprise then that means it’s the wood’s arrow now. You can try looking for it, but good luck.
[deleted] t1_iy0euhp wrote
[deleted]
MIShadowBand t1_ixz9t37 wrote
Holy shit! Again?? How does this keep happening??
starkiller_bass t1_ixzdudk wrote
Like I tell my wife, surprise release happens to all men sometimes and she should be flattered.
bremergorst t1_iy0nyiy wrote
Professional Surprise Releaser
Van_GOOOOOUGH t1_ixyqpo9 wrote
themeateater
theme at eater?
them eat at er?
them eat eater?
Oh
the meat eater
bisho t1_ixyr6a5 wrote
Theme AT-AT E.R.
It's a Star Wars themed emergency room, at a private children's hospital owned by Disney.
lying_Iiar t1_ixzemk6 wrote
THE MEAT....ATER
[deleted] t1_ixzexxp wrote
[deleted]
ElGuano t1_ixz1wrg wrote
It's Therapist Finder's alt account.
auto98 t1_iy0mz6u wrote
I heard about him, he lives on Pen Island doesn't he?
swiftyshep t1_ixzub75 wrote
A meateater is a neutral third party who helps to resolve arguments or disputes smh think before you comment
huntingteacher25 t1_ixzmoh3 wrote
The surprise release allows the brain to make the most minute adjustments without interference from our conscience self. It’s truly amazing what our brain can compute when shooting. Archery shooting is an amazing sport most folks not involved don’t understand.
Anticode t1_iy0e4cm wrote
I think it's quite amusing to learn that it's an intentional strategy.
Consciousness is often lauded as the most important feature of humanity, especially because it is "us", but it gets in the way incredibly often.
Generally speaking, we perform more poorly on most tasks when we have greater awareness of what we're doing. Anybody who has played an instrument knows what it's like to suddenly become aware of what your fingers are doing and miraculously losing the ability to play. Stepping in front of a group to read a well-rehearsed essay only to forget the words, finding yourself inexplicably "manually walking" past your crush in an empty hallway, so on.
Inversely, we're capable of grand feats of intuitive functionality when we're not paying attention ranging from spontaneous mathematical solutions, motor control, recollection, and problem solving. There's endless examples to choose from, each suggesting that the conscious self isn't often even "doing the work" at all, merely taking credit for answers that were performed elsewhere with a wink, like a student being passed notes during a quiz.
Whenever "we" try to do those things consciously - manually - we find ourselves performing poorly, even ineptly. We often think about our conscious selves as the driver behind the wheel, but we're more like the person in the passenger seat. We can reach over to grab the wheel to steer the car, but we're not going to do it well. We can change the radio station, but when we look away it'll often be tuned to a different station again.
When we look at one of our closest evolutionary ancestors, we even see that they outperform us cognitively in various ways. There's videos of infant chimpanzees kicking the dogcrap out of adult humans in memorization games, for example. When humans are performing with that kind of grace, we're doing it subconsciously or from within a flow state (and those are quite similar, in a sense). That's where the chimp always is.
What's consciousness good at? Managing concepts and abstractions, and overriding conflicting motor impulses. This ability is what allows us to make fire, a task that seems fruitless and painful for many minutes until smoke begins to rise. It's also what allows us to grasp onto a hot bowl of soup rather than dropping it on the floor, an instinct we subvert in favor of avoiding a mess that would also ruin our meal. Looking at our chimp friend, this is precisely where we leave them in the dust.
But when it comes down to just about everything else, other parts of our brains are carrying the load and we're just taking credit for it, often retroactively. This is why we're often so much better at things we're not trying to do, why we suddenly suck at a video game the moment we're showing a friend our skills, and why a moment of high intensity can turn an expert into an apparent novice.
It's no surprise that expert archers have learned to utilize surprise release mechanisms. It's a lesson we can all apply to our own lives, in fact. Whenever I find myself hesitating, I recollect or withdraw because the outcome would have been in conscious hands - and conscious hands aren't good hands except when making a decision to act or not.
I'm not a fan of the movies by any means, but this is probably what Yoda meant when he said "Do or do not do. There is no try."
Trying fails where doing doesn't.
Copenhoss t1_ixzf2qh wrote
I learned how to shoot one of these thumb releases this year. Been shooting 20 years archery with wrist release. Learning curve wasn’t the easiest but It does make a good difference in archery performance
scrumbungledung t1_ixzutdx wrote
I have always shot a wrist. I don't understand target panic because I first started shooting at about 7 y/o. I'm the guy who would punch his own teeth out learning to shoot a hinge.
Copenhoss t1_ixzylde wrote
I didn’t realize I was panic shooting with a wrist until I went to a button. Basically letting the shot go from the anchor point with zero rear follow through. Like I said rough learning curve but I went from “good” to “great”
scrumbungledung t1_iy05q9n wrote
Is the thumb button the trigger or is that just like a safety to engage the mechanism? I see straight hinge releases with no thumb barrel at all and always wondered.
Copenhoss t1_iy089hv wrote
So there’s hinge releases and thumb buttons. Some hinges do have thumb safety’s. I use a thumb button. Pulling straight back with your elbow will release a thumb button. A hinge requires you to do the same while letting your hand slightly rotate to release it. YouTube has plenty of explanations
Proper_Indication_66 t1_ixz7uzc wrote
It's to combat a psychological phenomenon called "target panic."
Basically an involuntary flinch that stops the archer from holding the bow on target. It occurs in target archery only. Pretty strange thing.
It has its own Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_panic#:~:text=Target%20panic%20is%20a%20psychological,since%20at%20least%20the%201970s.
Craig_Barcus t1_iy0c473 wrote
Ever had buck fever? Guess what that is the same thing as.
Proper_Indication_66 t1_iy3kci7 wrote
No, it's pretty different from buck fever. I've certainly had plenty of both. Buck fever is an adrenaline overrun. Target panic is something much smaller - something deeply psychological. Very much like the yips that strike a golfer as he's trying to putt.
decolored t1_ixzbbdw wrote
If you read the explanation of what they call “target panic” on your link, there are three explanations for why it exists and has been recognized.
- Bow feels too heavy
- Target becomes difficult to aim at (physically or psychologically?)
- Premature release - inability to come full anchor before releasing the arrow.
So basically we got a bunch of lazy archers who decided utilizing a mechanism to favor equalizing genetics surpasses the utility of choosing accurate and strong bow-shooting. No wonder archery seems pointless as a competitive sport
scfade t1_ixziiiw wrote
The hell? There are no listed explanations in the Wiki article. What you listed were symptoms. The direct text....
>There are three primary symptoms of target panic.[3] An archer suffering from target panic may experience a premature anchor, where the bow appears to become very heavy and it is difficult for the shooter to come to a full anchor position. A second symptom is referred to as a premature hold, where an archer "locks up" or "hits a wall" that they are unable to move past as they try to align their arrow with the target. The third symptom is referred to as a premature release and is characterized by an inability to come to full anchor without releasing the arrow.
decolored t1_ixzm3qj wrote
How are symptoms and response patterns not an explanation? Then why is it even a term? Because it’s a noticeable quirk in human competitive psychology? Why is it limited to explanation of arrow shooting? Because it’s a focused perspective meant to validate underperformance.
Epic_Meow t1_ixz1ccp wrote
well it's less so pro archers and more just most compound archers
Fiery_Hand t1_ixzg8rl wrote
Nah, it's for all archery, you don't need release mechanism. What might surprise you here, it's basically the same rule as with shooting a gun. You don't pull the trigger, you jest press it gently until the shot surprises you.
99% of rules apply for both archery and gun shooting, like relaxed stance and muscles, focus on aiming sights, properly training muscle memory etc.
Source: soldier and a fan of archery, although just amateur.
Epic_Meow t1_ixzgrql wrote
sure but the mechanisms are a compound bow only thing
Fiery_Hand t1_ixzrn5a wrote
The principle stays. I'm using finger tab, you just gently let slide the bowstring until it cannot be stopped and arrow is released.
hellflame t1_ixzxv2w wrote
Must be a pain to tune your clicker distance and tension release
Fiery_Hand t1_ixzy4tr wrote
I don't know what you mean, sorry, not native English user.
hellflame t1_ixzyhio wrote
Olympic style shooter use a clicker. To tell them the arrow is drawn at exactly the same distance every time. Having to match that in a way to align with the moment your finger tab slides of the string... Well I don't see it happening
Fiery_Hand t1_iy03rbm wrote
Ah, I see, right.
Anyway, forgot to add earlier I shot recurve, kind of changes everything I guess.
Horatio_ATM t1_iy10qew wrote
Clickers are only used for recurve.
hellflame t1_iy1caql wrote
He probably means barebow recurve
Horatio_ATM t1_iy10d9y wrote
That sounds really inconsistent. Your fingers will slow down the bowstring a slightly different amount for every shot and your draw distance will be different for every shot. I also suspect you'd be applying a small amount of leftward pressure to the string (if you're right handed).
CommanderShepard2219 t1_ixzp2ov wrote
Archery is more than compound bows. Traditional Archery exists and there is no mechanisms at all. Just wood and string. I don’t even use sights. It’s all instinctive.
Also a three gun shooter in addition to primitive marksman competitions and agree that the basic principles of marksmanship is fundamentally the same, minus the focus on sights and sight picture, but instinctive shooting makes one a better shooter with sights in my experience.
DrivinByBoredom t1_ixzw79u wrote
As my dad told me a thousand times " squeeze the trigger, don't pull it stupid!"
onceagainwithstyle t1_iy0ajtn wrote
The "let the trigger suprize you" thing is really more of a training tool.
If you ever have to take a shot now you're going to the wall and applying the correct preasure.
And once you know exactly how much force trips the trigger, you know damn well when the shot is going to break.
Letting it supprize you just gets you into the mindset of how to properly address the trigger.
marduk73 t1_iy04tze wrote
Works with for long range rifles too. I will sometimes use my middle finger instead of my index finger because I'm not used to the feeling on the trigger. Then i do my normal breath exercise and squeeze until the trigger breaks. The surprise is good to keep from pre-reacting and jerking the rifle around.
Rebelgecko t1_iy0f05d wrote
Another trick I've seen is to mix snap caps or even just empty casing into the magazine. Makes it easier to see if you've developed a flinch, because you feel your body anticipating a shot that never happens.
marduk73 t1_iy0hhdf wrote
I do that one with pistols.
jncc t1_ixz4kfo wrote
"many pro archers"
Story names 4.
Okay.
tomk09 t1_ixzdsbh wrote
I’ve spent a fair amount of time in competitive archery circles. I’d be willing to bet that well over 50% of pros use some sort of hinge style surprise release.
scrumbungledung t1_ixzvdty wrote
Command is getting more common on the 3D field. I think you're right.
Craig_Barcus t1_iy0cihp wrote
What’s really funny is not a single one of the “pros” named in the article are actually pro archers.
John Dudley is the closest, but he hasn’t competed in 15+ years.
donald7773 t1_ixz5sld wrote
Yeah no idk anyone who has spent any time in archery who has issues with trigger releases. Myself included.
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Simon_the_Great t1_ixysdpy wrote
Imagine your just chilling at home and eat Netflix when suddenly an arrow goes through your tv. I would indeed be surprised!
MediocreDungeonMastr t1_ixzlph5 wrote
i believe sharpshooters will too. when i was trained in the military to shoot they trained us to squeeze the trigger for a single shot slowly so you wouldn't know when it fired, and thereby wouldn't flinch.
YahYahY t1_ixzwgrh wrote
Everyone should read Zen In the Art of Archery at least once in their lives.
oborobot t1_ixzr4v6 wrote
I mean surprise is a bit of a misnomer. The device I used to use we called a clicker. It would go between the arrow and the body of the riser and when you pulled the tip of the arrow past the piece of metal, it would snap back towards the riser with an audible click. This ensures the bow is drawn to the same tension for each shot. As with most things in competitive target shooting of any kind, this is with the aim to improve consistency.
ChiggaOG t1_ixzval6 wrote
I had to go through this article and scrutinize it because something about it was fishy. I have my own recurve and don't use a back tension release. And then I realized it is an article with a slight bias becuase the users of a back tension release would be more likely to use a compound bow.
pessamisitcnihalism t1_iy08bf8 wrote
I've seen this article twice and as someone who's used to compound and recurve I've always felt using one of these fucks with my aim, if you're actually a pro you would be able to train yourself not to have a counter productive reaction. I mean when I was 10 learning archery you're taught how to avoid this happening it's not difficult. I'd like to see someones opinion who's actually dedicated their life to archery, because I really don't understand this.
mchester117 t1_iy18olc wrote
If I had to guess, this is an advertisement and the article paid for by the maker of said release mechanism. Just spitballing though
JasonJeffersonBOT t1_ixzd031 wrote
I love surprises!
Noctudeit t1_ixzr0qc wrote
Marksmen do a similar thing by shooting a revolver with rounds randomly placed in the cylinder
chinchenping t1_ixzvdxc wrote
every sharpshooting sport use this in a form or an other. I do pistol sharp shooting and we also learn "suprise release" trigger technique
Blade_Shot24 t1_iy01lfl wrote
Best who can understand this it gun owners who practice shooting. You never wanna anticipate the recoil or your gonna miss your shot.
Don't believe me, put a dummy round it used casing (not live cause people are stupid) with an empty unloaded handgun. Or the dummy on top of the slide and try pulling the trigger without it moving. It'll improve your shots
GhostFour t1_iy0m81t wrote
I haven't shot competitively in over 25 years but that doesn't seem like something I would have needed. The more contact points for a consistent release, the better.
nusensei t1_iy194o3 wrote
The summary is quite misleading. There a few things to clarify.
The article is discussing a type of mechanical release aid called the "back tension" type. Most release aids used for compound bows have a trigger, activated by either the index finger or the thumb. This gives more control over the shot, but like with firearms, slamming the trigger can cause inaccuracy. The archer doesn't anticipate the "impact", but rather they can prematurely relax, anticipating that the shot has been executed. This leads to a collapse in the arms due to the loss of "back tension" - the muscles used to hold the bow at full draw.
The back tension release does not have a trigger. Instead, it is activated by increasing back tension, in which the archer will expand through the shot. The release aid is designed in such a way that once the hand reaches a certain angle (as a result of the expansion), the string will come off, resulting in a cleaner release that isn't fouled by punching the trigger. It does, however, require very good control of the shot process as the archer cannot consciously decide to release.
This is only done with compound bows. Recurve shooters don't use release aids.
McArthurWheeler t1_iy20irt wrote
A light trigger on a gun has a similar effect. There is a lot less slowly squeezing the trigger anticipating the shot.
RuFRoCKeRReDDiT t1_iy2dpon wrote
I use surprise release mechanisms in the bed room cuz I'm trying to improve my non existent pull out game.
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5zalot t1_ixyrcp2 wrote
I always wondered how that works! Thanks for posting this.
donald7773 t1_ixz4tkv wrote
Yeah this is horse shit. Trigger releases are what they use. It's a clamp that holds onto a loop on the bowstring. They have extremely light triggers, comparable if not better than the nicest triggers you can buy on any rifle.
imreallynotthatcool t1_ixzfu07 wrote
Yeah... No. Trigger release is something your average archery hunter is going to use for deer season, not professional archery competition. My $50 Timney trigger in my Remington 700 is going to be lighter than any quick release simply because of string tension. And I have used some really nice quick releases.
[deleted] t1_ixz6uns wrote
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Icy-Tumbleweed1340 t1_ixz7t27 wrote
If you anticipate the release, you'll pull or push your fingers and hand up, down, left, or right, thus affecting the projectile. It's the same with a gun
mcfaite t1_ixzbrn0 wrote
And also with cameras using long lenses
Icy-Tumbleweed1340 t1_ixzi2nd wrote
TIL
ARobertNotABob t1_iy01wb9 wrote
Drat. As an FPS gamer that suffers from this "target panic", I was so hoping the back tension release was some sort of exercise I could do. :)
Very interesting though, and makes complete sense.
Ishana92 t1_iy0b9al wrote
TIL that bows have triggers
AKspock t1_iy0xls2 wrote
They’re talking about the release, not the bow. A release is something you wear on your hand that connects to the bow string. Once you’re pulled back, the release holds the bow string rather than your fingers. There is a trigger on the release that you pull when your ready to shoot.
Benjowenjo t1_iy0d1ch wrote
S’en and the Art of archery discusses the importance of developing a similar method of release albeit without using a release mechanism.
[deleted] t1_iy0mpel wrote
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mseley t1_iy14x1c wrote
“Article” is a commercial trying to sell you something
shingofan t1_iy18zia wrote
Well, from my limited archery experience, it's more for consistency than anything like "surprise".
(that reminds me - I should look into getting a new release, since the trigger-style one I'm using right now is a bit finicky for my tastes)
logicjab t1_iy1d6ef wrote
It’s not a surprise, it simply releases when you pull the bow far enough or rotate the release a certain amount. You set them up so the bow releases when you execute the correct draw cycle, rather than having to consciously “fire” the bow
LifelessHawk t1_iy1qnxt wrote
Surprise mechanics we should call EA
chocolatecoffeedick t1_iy11smp wrote
if you're any good with a bow it ain't gonna be because of some stupid shit like this.
tatakatakashi t1_ixz1nvx wrote
I feel like this could be a good metaphor for goals; there might not ever be a time you are perfectly ready - you’ve but you do your best to line up your target and hold strong and when it’s time you’ll know and that will be the best time
andrenery t1_iy0imjg wrote
Those modern bows are so fucking lame.
Doubt those "pros" can pull a 60lbf longbow and hit a target at 40 step distance.
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Imatelluonemortime t1_ixywenn wrote
Seems stupid...
Selrisitai t1_ixyue01 wrote
Ridiculous, lol! I learned from my pop, and we use no sights or release. Draw back to the same spot every time—I put my thumb to my cheek—look at your target, hold her steady, let the string slip from your fingers.
IronicBread t1_ixyv8jg wrote
These are pro's so I think they know better than your pop lmao
donald7773 t1_ixz51df wrote
Yes and no. The article is discussing compound bow shooting, which uses a release mechanism. The commenter here is discussing a traditional/recurve bow which uses your fingers. The proper way to shoot a recurve bow is to have a consistent release point. You never draw and hold a traditional bow like you see in movies or video games. You release once you touch that release point, or start over.
IronicBread t1_ixz95c9 wrote
Right, but they're saying it's ridiculous, which it isn't as the pros know what they're doing.
Selrisitai t1_ixyvj4s wrote
😅 Well, he hits the target, anyhow!
benthejammin t1_ixz270g wrote
This is very sweet and wholesome. Good for pops! Eagle eye.
Selrisitai t1_ixz2puk wrote
Thanks. I love the man.
eetuu t1_ixyyg7t wrote
Letting the string slip is a surprise release mechanism!
Selrisitai t1_ixyyvzm wrote
It's the standard method for people who finger-shoot. If you try to open your fingers you'll tend to snap at the string, thereby jostling the arrow as it releases and it won't fly straight.
Herpes-in-space t1_ixyqnxs wrote
I'm more surprised than they are.