Comments
Gulbahar-00 t1_j6l0gzt wrote
Cambodia had a life expectancy of 15 at one point during Pol Pot’s administration
CrypticHandle t1_j6l0u0e wrote
Thank you Good Kings Leopold I & II, beloved uncle and cousin of Queen Victoria.
[deleted] t1_j6l6laq wrote
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giskardwasright t1_j6l8lo7 wrote
I learned about this while reading "Things Fall Apart" in the 10th grade. Guess I should count myself lucky that I was allowed to read that book since it's probably banned from classrooms by my state at this point...
Yardsale420 t1_j6l9rm0 wrote
Behind the Bastards does a 2 part episode on him and it’s SO MUCH WORSE than you can imagine. If I asked you who the worst person of all time was you probably say Hitler. But Leopold II might actually be worse. At least Hitler had semi redeeming qualities like his skill as an orator or his love of animals. Leopold had zero redeeming qualities. He was just a piece of shit.
Yardsale420 t1_j6la5ce wrote
Do you know who DOESN’T kill babies in the Belgian Congo? … Actually, Sophie, can you check and make sure our next ad isn’t sponsored by Blue Apron?
ClassicCosmos t1_j6lb203 wrote
Yurop
tmdblya t1_j6lbhzj wrote
Read King Leopold’s Ghost
tmdblya t1_j6lbjxj wrote
Always gotta have that one guy “but Communism!”
DaveOJ12 t1_j6lc8hm wrote
>At least Hitler had semi redeeming qualities like his skill as an orator or his love of animals
Hitler put those good qualities to good use, right?
Dolly_gale t1_j6lcj5t wrote
I picked up a copy after seeing several redditors mention it. An excellent book about a very grim subject.
covfefe-boy t1_j6lcnb7 wrote
Well, Hitler killed Hitler, you have to at least give him that.
Alexis_J_M t1_j6lcwte wrote
Do not search images.
twb51 t1_j6ldhiy wrote
“He spoke a great speech”
BrushYourFeet t1_j6le1lm wrote
That is a remarkably wide swing. Also, according to the comments I'm seeing, it wasn't colonialism, but instead one man.
Gulbahar-00 t1_j6lh39b wrote
I wasn’t talking about Communism, just sharing information about similar authoritarian regimes.
Yes, Pol Pot was communist and Leopold was capitalist. The issue is that they were both authoritarian, not their economic system.
Chillchinchila1 t1_j6lh5ks wrote
You don’t need to sanitize the Nazis to condemn Leopold’s. Seriously what is with redditors that can’t talk about any historical tragedy without going “the Nazis were teddy bears compared to this”.
It’s not even like Leopold killed more people, or had less noble goals, hitler wanted to exterminate most of the human population.
theanedditor t1_j6lhtuu wrote
Good German speeching he did.
DaveOJ12 t1_j6liiy1 wrote
I've never heard that one before.
manguito86 t1_j6lk1xt wrote
It wasn't because of colonialism, it was because there was a lunatic rulling it.
RogerPackinrod t1_j6lk4ga wrote
2 and 13 million seems like a pretty wide margin of error
Exeunter t1_j6lm1q3 wrote
I learned about this from the documentary The Legend of Tarzan
dont_shoot_jr t1_j6lo0os wrote
Yes, let’s not besmirch colonialism
lord_ne t1_j6lpkxy wrote
"between 2 and 13 million" is a pretty wide range
Willsmithsdignity t1_j6lptsb wrote
The more I hear about colonialism the less I like it.
madrid987 t1_j6lpxd2 wrote
Is it possible to cut so many hands in just 13 years? The population of Belgium at that time was only 5 million, and the number of Belgians living in Congo did not exceed 1000.
Demon-Hunter457 t1_j6lqgjv wrote
I can excuse a little genocide but I draw the line at criticism of colonialism
[deleted] t1_j6lqpyu wrote
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Faultywhale t1_j6lr467 wrote
I have a copy on my bookshelf and keep meaning to re-read it, I remember enjoying it
The-albatroz t1_j6lux2w wrote
Always gotta have some communist who take every comment as an attack on his beautiful and very functional political system
[deleted] t1_j6lv54d wrote
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[deleted] t1_j6lvfhl wrote
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WR810 t1_j6lvul6 wrote
> Leopold was capitalist practiced mercantilism.
There are plenty of bad things you can say about capitalism but when you have state monopolies, captured markets, and lack free trade that's mercantilism.
Edit: do you really believe the overseas private property of a European monarch was practicing capitalism?
giskardwasright t1_j6lwobr wrote
You should. It's an amazing book.
Belongs-InTheTrash t1_j6lxcfs wrote
For real like did this person really write “at least Hitler had semi redeeming qualities” and get upvotes
Dodaddydont t1_j6lxjzo wrote
They probably didn’t do census’s there at that time
platoprime t1_j6lyd2a wrote
I have but it just goes in one ear and out the other ya know?
BrokenEye3 t1_j6m0mwg wrote
*censuses or censusses or census
BrokenEye3 t1_j6m0sna wrote
A lunatic colonialist
DaddeHorseCoc t1_j6m1fjp wrote
To late, not what I wanted to see before bed
Background_Loss5641 t1_j6m4k9h wrote
There probably weren't even 13 million in the Congo at the time. There are a number of estimates, and a reasonably high-end estimate puts the number at around 10.7 million. This is just a popilation estimate; not even an estimate of the number that died. Hell, there's even an estimate that says the population grew from 1890 to 1910. Here's a video people won't like.
CanadianGurlfren t1_j6m5ea8 wrote
[deleted] t1_j6m5hyf wrote
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CanadianGurlfren t1_j6m5idz wrote
Imperialism is the armed wing of capitalism
CanadianGurlfren t1_j6m5ocw wrote
He owned the company and it's subsidiaries like the army. The Belgian king had little real power so he decided to get rich off the exploitation of Africa's interior.
CanadianGurlfren t1_j6m5qhd wrote
In the bathroom, european
stelythe1 t1_j6m63w9 wrote
censussy ඞ
BrokenEye3 t1_j6m6hcf wrote
Yeah, I assumed that would be it too, but I checked and for reasons I'm not highly educated enough to understand, the Latin plural of "census" is "census" (unless its in the genitive case, in which case the plural is "censuum", which seems pretty rad but not strictly relevant to this usage) and thus in English the rarely used "proper" plural is too. Maybe it wasn't originally considered a countable noun? That'd be kind of ironic.
CanadianGurlfren t1_j6m6ms6 wrote
It isn't countable because Latin borrowed it from Japanese
FoetusScrambler t1_j6m77e1 wrote
Communism can never be truly tested as a system because communist nations always seem to collapse before full implementation
manguito86 t1_j6m8shx wrote
Where did I say that? Not everything about colonialism is bad, everything about being a killing lunatic is bad.
[deleted] t1_j6m8uq5 wrote
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free_umi t1_j6m8uxb wrote
And yet, we left and continue to leave the country to try to recover from that babarism, essentially unsupported
Sparrow2go t1_j6m9bs3 wrote
Behind the Bastards has a great episode on King Leopold and the Congo.
A fantastic podcast all around and your listening shouldn’t stop there.
Jason_CO t1_j6m9yxk wrote
I don't find those qualities redeem what he did at all.
The-albatroz t1_j6ma5oo wrote
That’s weird 🤔
UndercoverHouseplant t1_j6ma775 wrote
Leopold established control over a foreign territory with the explicit purpose of advancing his own wealth, which is the definition of colonialism. The thing is, as a king, he didn't do it for the nation of Belgium, but rather for his personal gain. The Belgian government had little to no say in how he ruled what essentialy became his private territory.
As such, it's both colonialism and a single person at the root of this all.
[deleted] t1_j6mb5vc wrote
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someoneone211 t1_j6mc5q3 wrote
Went to get this book on auidable. There's a study guide and no book. I don't understand why. His book there was a country is there.
neosinan t1_j6mc9t3 wrote
It is called genocide not population decline.
[deleted] t1_j6mcfpg wrote
When the hands become a currency, they are harvested by all means.
AloofCommencement t1_j6mcj66 wrote
A redeeming quality isn't something that completely negates all negative actions. It's merely a point in the "Good" column.
What made you think that the commenter was trying to convey that a love of animals counts as redemption for what he did? Even without a definition it's pretty easy to pick up the point being made.
stefantalpalaru t1_j6mcmub wrote
Belgians like to pretend it was all the king's fault, because he acted on his own. That is far from the truth.
"King Leopold’s Bonds and the Odious Debts Mystery" (2020):
«Eventually, and in violation of an earlier pledge that the colony would not be a drain on Belgium’s finances, the King sought a loan from Belgium itself. That loan was made—interest free, in the amount of 25 million francs—in return for his agreement to give the Congo to Belgium in his will.»
«Moreover, Leopold agreed that “at the end of ten years, either the loan would be repaid, or the Free State would be handed over to Belgium.” The colony, in other words, was security for the loan.»
«Leopold therefore had to sell, but the terms of the deal were, from a modern perspective, generous. Belgium not only took over his debt obligations, but also committed to pay for many of his ongoing pet construction projects in Belgium (palaces, gardens and more), and pledged a 50 million franc payment to Leopold “as a mark of gratitude for his great sacrifices made for the Congo.” As Hochschild notes, “[s]ome of the debt the outmaneuvered Belgian government assumed [and then put on the Congolese] was in effect to itself—the nearly 32 million francs worth of loans Leopold had never paid back.”»
«Stengers concludes that “King Leopold extracted money from the Congo, but used it almost exclusively to enrich the [Belgian] national heritage by acquisitions of property, by monumental constructions, and by works of urbanization. His obsession was not with his own fortune but with the embellishment of his country.”»
[deleted] t1_j6mdgug wrote
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TehDandiest t1_j6mdrb6 wrote
What is the point of this modern hatred of colonialism? They were just empires spread over seas. Almost every nation that's ever existed had some sort of empire in its history with the exact same goals as colonialism. If they didn't, we'd still have city states rather than countries.
Dom_Shady t1_j6melhp wrote
ricenola t1_j6mfazc wrote
If you are interested in learning about the atrocities committed Belgium's king Leopold in Congo, I truly recommend Noble Blood podcast, episode "The Red Paint on Leopold II". It's infuriating AF
BrownMan65 t1_j6mgtoo wrote
Yeah almost like capitalist nations wage war on the communists every chance they get.
NoMalarkyZone t1_j6mh4aq wrote
Colonialism was / is a system of wealth extraction from the developing world.
Pay08 t1_j6mhkgr wrote
Saying the Belgian government was complicit because they gave him a loan is just idiotic. By all accounts, the Congo Free State was Leopold's personal property. The Belgian parliament not only had no influence or authority there, they had no insight at all to its affairs. This is like saying I'm a murderer if I buy food from South America.
Pay08 t1_j6mhtap wrote
It's almost like communism is impossible to sustain on a scale that involves more than 50 people. Especially if these people are forced into it. The USSR destroyed itself, it had nothing to do with any other country.
[deleted] t1_j6mi16p wrote
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BrownMan65 t1_j6mij56 wrote
It’s crazy how little people know about history but still make such know it all statements.
1945BestYear t1_j6miv7x wrote
I would've defined "redeeming" as specifically not being a mere point in the good column, there has to be a relationship between it and the person's bad qualities. If you redeem a debt, you are paying it back, you are "making it good", it's not as if the debt you owe is redeemed if other people are also indebted to you.
If you want to see any quality in Hitler that could barely, arguably be categorized as "redeeming" in the light of his monstrous crimes, then it would be that he had a, very limited and specific, idea of "the German People" that he thought he was leading to a better future in a world he considered to be one of unending racial conflict. That's something at least, "As big as I am, the People is even bigger than me", we can agree that Hitler was wrong and also say that he subscribed to propositions that at least make it understandable why he'd consider himself a selfless hero. Leopold didn't even have that, he owned the Congo as his personal estate, legally the Belgian people and government had nothing to do with it, and he was under no obligation to enrich them or anybody else for it, it literally just existed only to make Leopold, already the constitutional monarch of a nation, even more rich and powerful.
NoMalarkyZone t1_j6mj1y9 wrote
Or you could fuck off with the white nationalism
PartyYogurtcloset267 t1_j6mj47b wrote
But hey, reddit totally assured me that European colonialism wasn't actually so bad after all.
hitlerspoon5679 t1_j6mjfkn wrote
Might as well say 0 - infinity range
stefantalpalaru t1_j6mjksi wrote
> Saying the Belgian government was complicit because they gave him a loan is just idiotic.
Read again what you wrote. Then read it again, and again, and again, until you see all that blood on your hands.
Wodan1 t1_j6mjlqt wrote
The USSR did collapse because of its own actions. It's dishonest to point fingers and blame capitalist nation's over the failure of the bloc, when it's clear that the USSR was never going to be sustainable, based upon the internal problems it had with economics and bureaucratic government.
1945BestYear t1_j6mjxk7 wrote
Some native Africans were employed to act as the enforcement of this colonial rule. And I don't say that to shift blame onto those Africans, it was a terrible dilemma; do you A) want to break your back trying to make impossible quotas for rubber and see your children lose their hands when you fail, or do you B) want better pay and protection for your family by being the one doing the cutting? Unless you can be sure that nobody else will accept B and thus make such harsh colonial rule unenforceable, it is safer if you accept B. The manual labour of genocides is often carried out by members of the group that is being subjected to genocide; Cremations and burials in the camps of the Holocaust was usually done by camp prisoners themselves.
Pay08 t1_j6mk5h1 wrote
Are you implying I'm Belgian? Even if I was, I'm sure as hell not 150 years old.
FaceOfThePLanet t1_j6mk6y6 wrote
The Land of Censi
echidna_admirer t1_j6mkc8o wrote
For anyone unfamiliar, the book is named for this poem excerpt, written upon his death:
>Listen to the yells of Leopold's ghost
Burning tonight for his hand-maimed host
Hear how the demons chuckle and yell
Cutting his hands off down in Hell.
King Leopold assigned Congolese natives a quota of rubber production. Failure to meet his quota was punishable by death, as was stealing from the military presence. He ordered his military units to collect the hands from those they killed, to prove they were using any spent bullets to kill Congolese and not to hunt or hoard for rebellion. Instead, military personnel would hunt (to get fresh meat instead of rations), steal and sell supplies, or just hang out instead of collecting rubber dropoffs from the locals, and then kill Congolese for their hands as explanation. This created a black market for hands, where the Belgian troops would pay Congolese raiding parties to kill villagers and collect hands, which became a sort of currency. Initially, non-lethal punishments were all about whipping. After the black market arose, punishment became about hands; if you were a man, they wouldn't want to cut off your hands (else you couldn't produce rubber), they'd cut off your children's hands, to both punish you and score more hands to sell/trade.
The most famous image of the period is Alice Seeley Harris's portrait of a man named Nsala, who sits gazing at the hand of his five-year-old daughter, severed as punishment for low rubber production.
There are more than 20 statues of Leopold in Belgium, and they are now regularly vandalized with the phrase "Hear how the demons chuckle and yell, cutting his hands off down in Hell."
LauraPhilps7654 t1_j6mkzh6 wrote
Leopold must be one of the most evil men in history. Belgium wasn't interested in colonizing the Congo but Leopold - apparently dissatisfied with merely being a king - colonized the Congo as a private citizen anyway to extract as much rubber profit as possible. He was born impossibly rich and powerful and it still wasn't enough for him. Millions of people died.
ancientevilvorsoason t1_j6ml7ha wrote
His statue got dropped in the drink a couple years back. I was very happy to hear that Belgium is finally starting to reasses the topic.
stefantalpalaru t1_j6mllnr wrote
> Even if I was, I sure as hell not a 150 years old.
The sins of the fathers...
AloofCommencement t1_j6mmgo3 wrote
There seem to be mixed opinions on what redeeming qualities are, and even this page contradicts itself by following its definition with usage examples that do not completely redeem a person. The examples show insufficiently redeeming qualities still being redeeming qualities, and I think whether or not that counts is what it comes down to.
I've always understood redeeming qualities to be positive traits, not necessarily ones that completely redeem. Things that shift the balance, if only the tiniest amount, from "bad" to "good". In this context, Adolf Hitler vs Leopold as people is the subject so I would think any positive attribute counts.
To circle back round to the original point of why I commented, we're talking about a race to the bottom where the usual contender for "Worst person ever" has slightly more in his favour than Leopold: the lesser known but in /u/Yardsale420's opinion arguably worse person. I would absolutely include your point of better intent, too. At least he thought he was doing something for the greater good in his twisted mind. Replies ignored everything and cherrypicked "Dogs mean Hitler was an upstanding citizen on balance", which is a gross misrepresentation even if you disagree with a definition.
Pay08 t1_j6mmh89 wrote
You know, we stopped doing that "you're responsible for your ancestors crimes" thing after the middle ages.
ChristyM4ck t1_j6mmhar wrote
Leopold II was a real asshole.
TehDandiest t1_j6mn0fb wrote
Just like every other empire ever
zebulonworkshops t1_j6mnscl wrote
No dog in this fight, but didn't the US have kinda a lot to do with it failing as well as its internal greed and corruption? I seem to remember an extended, but cold war...
zebulonworkshops t1_j6mo9wa wrote
It's called nuance. It's weird that people have such a hard time discerning between two terrible things. You can acknowledge someone is one of the top two terrible humans to ever exist and still have people offended, which is kinda inevitable but, it's not saying one is puppies and rainbows. It's using the one as the bar for worst person ever.
zebulonworkshops t1_j6mof31 wrote
However, Raytheon....
Hambredd t1_j6mot0o wrote
You understand what a 'cold' war is right? They didn't fight.
FlimFlamStan t1_j6moz2p wrote
The horror.
Hambredd t1_j6mpb98 wrote
That's not what 'sins of the fathers' means. But how about we look into your cultural history and work out what you should be feeling guilty about.
1945BestYear t1_j6mphql wrote
Yeah, that's fair. "Redeem" is just one of those words you have to lock down a very specific and explained meaning if you're going to use it in an argument. Under the meaning that I use, I think it's defensible to consider Leopold the worse person, he did things that earn him the infamy of the world just because he wanted money and land over which he could rule as a true despot. Under your meaning, which admits that any positive qualities of either could be counted just to merely register against their evil, I don't know enough about Leopold as a person to measure against the slightly more that I know about Hitler as a person. I'm sure Leopold would have to have had something, maybe he liked playing with his grandchildren, or he washed his hands after going to the toilet, or maybe he was just charming and interesting in conversation (apparently Hitler, for all his regarded charisma on the speaker's podium, was usually kinda awkward and even dull if you had to talk to him, people who met him who weren't committed Nazis seemed to often find him disappointing next to his reputation).
zebulonworkshops t1_j6mpk28 wrote
I never said they did. But the cold war certainly constrained their growth/opportunities. Why did you think I believed it was a 'hot war'? It wasn't anything I said... Or are you under the impression that only open warfare can negatively affect a country?
Hambredd t1_j6mpl8d wrote
'The Nazis banned smoking.'
'WHY ARE YOU DEFENDING THE NASIZS!'
That what you sound like.
TjeefGuevarra t1_j6mpqk3 wrote
Hitler was also a raging racist that actively tried to exterminate entire peoples because he thought they were abominations.
Leopold just let millions of people die because he wanted money.
They're both absolute pieces of shit but you can't possibly say Leopold was worse when Hitler did all of his killing on purpose whereas Leopold simply didn't give a fuck as long as he got profits.
Hambredd t1_j6mps6d wrote
>Yeah almost like capitalist nations wage war on the communists every chance they get.
Jeez why did I assume you were talking about a conflict.
That was the comment you were defending, maybe read it next time.
zebulonworkshops t1_j6mq2dq wrote
I was more responding to the comment after that, but... again, you can wage economic warfare. Don't simplify yourself.
>The USSR destroyed itself, it had nothing to do with any other country.
Hambredd t1_j6mqbv7 wrote
I'm guessing your a Yank? American exceptionalism at it's finest to believe they brought down the USSR with a few spies.
Besides you can flip the question, why wasn't USSR able to bring down capitalism during the cold war?
zebulonworkshops t1_j6mqteo wrote
No point in continuing this, you're not interested in learning. Stick to Tolkien and 40k, you have a lot of reading to do in order to shore up the blank spots in your history knowledge, but have no trouble spouting off on it apparently. And your debatelord Andy nonsense is too transparent to work.
But have a nice day, regardless.
Hambredd t1_j6mrbvc wrote
Oh piss off you really checked up on me? What's wrong with Tolkien and 40k, not written by Americans so worthless?
I'm interested in learning, what would you suggest I research something by Michael Bay?
I know enough to realise that the US wasn't the only country involved in the cold war for starters. And that the cold war didn't have a clear cut victor. Stick to poetry not history.
AloofCommencement t1_j6mrx8o wrote
That's a good point. Really it's a comparison of public profiles, and that's not exactly the gold standard of usable information. I imagine a certain amount is also gleaned from Mein Kampf, and an elected figure is inherently more public than royalty. Hitler put himself on display, and I imagine Leopold wasn't quite so interested in that.
I didn't know that about Hitler being awkward and dull, that's interesting.
zebulonworkshops t1_j6mt21p wrote
Bro, I didn't say anything about America, nor anything negative about Tolkien or Warhammer. I clicked your profile and scrolled for a few seconds to see if you posted in some of the more outrageous subs which are especially telling that someone has major issues with reality. 40k and Tolkien are good hobbies/fandoms to be a part of (or, they can be). I subscribe to Nerd of the Rings on YouTube, it's fun. But you're having a harder time in world history, or in reading comprehension, I'm not sure which, because you keep saying I'm talking about shit that I'm not. And defending the post I was responding to, which was just me saying that the USSR didn't fail in a vacuum while acknowledging their corruption playing a big part. You're bringing your own baggage in, moving goalposts, whatabout-ing and wasting both of our time. Again, have a good day.
*edit: slight correction. I said US in that original post when I could have said western capitalist nations. But the point stands, and I didn't say 'the US alone' or anything like that.
Hambredd t1_j6mtiyr wrote
Well why mention my hobbies if you weren't trying to make a point? You failed to find out that I was a Nazi or something so you were working with what you had.
Okay the USSR didn't fail in a vacuum — wow what a groundbreaking point. You sure showed the other guy.
I'm not even sure what your argument is at this point. Bar trying to make smug comments about my 'baggage' whatever that means.
zebulonworkshops t1_j6mu51u wrote
>The USSR destroyed itself, it had nothing to do with any other country.
Pay08 t1_j6muti1 wrote
The cold war was both countries trying to get ahead of each other and be ready for a possible war. This didn't have an impact on the general population and there's no evidence (that I know of) of a large and successful destabilisation campaign within the USSR.
PureImbalance t1_j6mvea9 wrote
I agree. It is however in different contexts an interesting question which evil would weigh heavier: The one intentionally inflicted with a reason behind it, or the one inflicted out of callous disregard.
IIRC Chomsky made an argument about that that bombing the Al-Shifa factory should be considered a worse evil than the twin tower attack in the sense that both were terrorist attacks (as long as you recognize state terrorism as terrorism) with similar order of magnitude of death toll - however intentional killing in a perverted sense at least recognizes the human status of the victim, while the Clinton Administration simply did not consider it important that thousands would die in some poor african nation somewhere as a consequence.
zebulonworkshops t1_j6mw2k3 wrote
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB107787406695041047
>The USSR destroyed itself, it had nothing to do with any other country.
The capitalist western world certainly stifled any vestige of communism. It's not like, up for debate, it's historical fact. The USSR had tons of their own problems and very well might have failed on its own, but I was responding to the quoted statement.
[deleted] t1_j6mwglb wrote
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Pay08 t1_j6mwt08 wrote
The Soviet economy was failing pretty much immediately after WW2. Sure, it was somewhat accelerated by outside powers, but the USSR would have collapsed anyways. Especially seeing as the main reason for its collapse was them conquering every Eastern European and Central Asian country.
stefantalpalaru t1_j6mxoqm wrote
> we stopped doing that "you're responsible for your ancestors crimes" thing after the middle ages
Is that why you keep defending those crimes and rewriting history to unburden your guilty conscience?
stefantalpalaru t1_j6mxtjw wrote
> That's not what 'sins of the fathers' means.
That is exactly what it means.
> how about we look into your cultural history and work out what you should be feeling guilty about
Tu quoque?
zebulonworkshops t1_j6mxz59 wrote
Holy shit you people in this sub love your downvotes. And sure, whatever. That wasn't my statement. I'm no tankie or Stalinist or whatever. But it's frustrating seeing someone claim that only faulty ideology caused that downfall. Life isn't nearly that black and white, and capitalism in history has very notably sought to snuff out socialism and communism whenever possible and by whatever means was feasible. It makes sense, it's a threat to their system of governance. It's why FDR was literally called a class traitor for implementing the New Deal. And why the far left at the time were against it because it was a band aid and not a cultural shift. The USSR sucked. Agreed.
Yosemitejohn t1_j6mxzl0 wrote
What the hell is that even supposed to mean?
Yosemitejohn t1_j6my17b wrote
You're on a mainstream subreddit, and you are using words that people don't understand. Good on you for trying, though.
CanadianGurlfren t1_j6n2tmr wrote
Do you know who Smedley Butler is?
_dirty_lew_ t1_j6n4ac6 wrote
That smelly wax shit?
Yosemitejohn t1_j6n6qz8 wrote
Yes, I do. Do you know what Smedley Butler has nothing to do with the Belgian Congo and the Belgian monarchy?
[deleted] t1_j6n825g wrote
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Jason_CO t1_j6n947w wrote
I got the point, I just think a different word would have served better.
CanadianGurlfren t1_j6najmz wrote
"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."
LTG Smedley Butler, USMC
WR810 t1_j6nayjm wrote
Imperialism isn't unique to capitalism.
xav2727 t1_j6nc3lb wrote
It's from a lot of diseases
dddxdxcccvvvvvvv t1_j6nduwn wrote
As a father to a 5 yo girl I can’t imagine the horror
Belongs-InTheTrash t1_j6nihz8 wrote
What’s nuance I’ve never heard that word before
CanadianGurlfren t1_j6nlgsn wrote
But it is heavily correlated.
jusmellow t1_j6np7ie wrote
[deleted] t1_j6npypu wrote
WR810 t1_j6nra93 wrote
Redditors when they learn there are more economic systems than capitalism & communism and socialism.
karl2025 t1_j6nrtgs wrote
In the case of Congo, they were often conscripted into service.
A_War_Of_Artillery t1_j6nrvva wrote
Unfortunately ‘twas the burden of the white man, to “civilize” these unfortunate peoples, but at least the economic benefit of looting, pillaging, and wealth extraction made up for the hardship of these superior peoples to carry the burden of territorial expansion.
But seriously, look at the vast majority of colonized peoples and tell me that colonialism was a good thing. White settlers don’t count as colonized peoples BTW.
A_War_Of_Artillery t1_j6nsjr9 wrote
So maybe all empires are built on blood and the concept of empires in general is outdated and we should feel to criticize them?
WR810 t1_j6nsueb wrote
It's takes a special kind of tunnel vision to look at all the wars of conquest and say "privately owned means" is at fault. It's as ridiculous as the "I did that" Biden stickers on gas pumps.
TehDandiest t1_j6nsxia wrote
Maybe, but we don't.
Background_Loss5641 t1_j6nsy5z wrote
Fantastic rebuttal.
Pay08 t1_j6nxc79 wrote
I don't know how many times I need to tell you that I'm not Belgian.
dressageishard t1_j6o1rx0 wrote
Oh, my. That's too gruesome to grasp or process. This was done to the children? King Leopold should have been hanged for these atrocities. I have never understood the power of royalty. 😭😭
dressageishard t1_j6o1zzg wrote
So as a private citizen, could King Leopold have been hanged for his crimes?
dressageishard t1_j6o2dt4 wrote
I don't see Hitler with any redeeming qualities.
dressageishard t1_j6o2fvd wrote
dressageishard t1_j6o2wq3 wrote
Agree. He killed too many people to have any redeeming qualities. If we were to weigh his pros and cons, his murdering millions of innocent people would outweigh any pros. If there were any pros to weigh in. Sheesh!
FIERY_URETHRA t1_j6o35j2 wrote
That's a lot of words for genocide
dressageishard t1_j6o3jh1 wrote
Yeh, I saw that.
dressageishard t1_j6o4ib1 wrote
The real sad part here is we don't know what we've lost. All of these innocent people could have made major contributions to the world. Who knows what poetry and literature was lost from these horrific deaths? Perhaps even the cure for major diseases was destroyed. We will never know. 😭😭😭😭
MiffyCurtains t1_j6oc435 wrote
Horrifying. As bad as it gets...
And he never even once set foot in that country.
SkinnyObelix t1_j6okd48 wrote
Why don't you even bother to get the facts about this thread title right?
1885-1908, not 1895. And also not Belgian Congo, but Congo Free State. Congo was annexed by the Belgian government and became a colony in 1908 because of the atrocities committed by its King.
edit WTF with the downvotes, it's literally in the title OP linked and the first sentence of the first paragraph.
ImmoralJester54 t1_j6omoc5 wrote
Anyone can be hanged.
ImmoralJester54 t1_j6omtjg wrote
Lol how he didn't do it all by himself
ImmoralJester54 t1_j6on840 wrote
When they found out what was being done with the money they could easily have raked the money back. I mean it happens for lesser crimes than genocide.
ImmoralJester54 t1_j6onkab wrote
They didn't write down a census back then. Especially when whole towns just all died.
Chadbrochill17_ t1_j6oombg wrote
Since you already warned people, I'll leave this here (worth the read, but the images are disturbing and the comments section is a cesspit): https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/father-hand-belgian-congo-1904/
dressageishard t1_j6op2yu wrote
Good to know.
BowzersMom t1_j6opd7u wrote
In the fourth declension nominative cases are the same for singular and plural. But which words are 4th declension and how can you tell? If I knew I might have scored better on my AP Latin exam 16 years ago.
stefantalpalaru t1_j6oqnx9 wrote
> I'm not Belgian.
The problem is your morality, not your nationality.
Hambredd t1_j6oqs71 wrote
'The sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons'
Nothing about that suggests the descendants of criminals deserve punishment.
>Tu quoque?
I was making a play for empathy. I don't think you should suffer from the sins of your countries past, but I was hoping that would realise how stupid that is in concept if you thought about what it would be like for you.
Hambredd t1_j6oqxpg wrote
When did I say that? Now you are making shit up
stefantalpalaru t1_j6oriai wrote
> I don't think you should suffer from the sins of your countries past
It's unavoidable, and so is benefiting from them. Go walk around Brussels sometime.
Hambredd t1_j6ortpx wrote
So what's your solution?
stefantalpalaru t1_j6osga4 wrote
> So what's your solution?
Awareness.
Hambredd t1_j6osmwe wrote
Education isn't a punishment
How would you make Brussels suffer?
stefantalpalaru t1_j6ot8bi wrote
> Education isn't a punishment
Isn't it, though?
Hambredd t1_j6othbl wrote
Are you trolling me? Of course it isn't, it's a net positive. A punishment would be denying Belgium's education and sending the education budget to the Congo
Teauxny t1_j6otyyr wrote
Oh what Reddit posts have we collectively missed????
stefantalpalaru t1_j6ovp0v wrote
> it's a net positive
You think Germans enjoy learning about Nazi Germany? You think the French enjoy learning about Napoleon?
Hambredd t1_j6own06 wrote
No more than I enjoyed learning about Nazi Germany. But learning about horrible things doesn't make your life worse. And hope they understand the world (you aside) doesn't blame them for the Nazis.
Pay08 t1_j6oxmjo wrote
That's my point. They didn't know what was going on. For all they knew, he could just be building housing.
ImmoralJester54 t1_j6oy1bt wrote
Yeah till week two when they hear about him. Just cause you handed out money doesn't mean shit they can take it back.
Lorpedodontist t1_j6p17jp wrote
This is important to understand.
The Belgians basically levied a tax on the population to produce rubber, and to enforce it, they hired African slavers, who after the slave trade ended, continued using brutal practices to extract as much wealth for themselves as they could.
The problem was really just how cruel people could be to other people. I don't think the Europeans actually understood just how bad things had gotten. They just cared that the rubber kept coming to fuel rapid industrialization in Europe.
ag_fierro t1_j6p7o5s wrote
But only a few of us could be hung. 😏🍆
dressageishard t1_j6pcn8v wrote
alchemistakoo t1_j6pf0fq wrote
Leopold didn't "let ppl die". They tortured those folks. Cut off feet and hands and kept em as trinkets.
tommyjack4 t1_j6pg11z wrote
Check out the discrepancies around with Eastern Front in WW2, almost like various groups give their own estimates based on their agendas
scsnse t1_j6pg9p5 wrote
One of my favorite war movies, Apocalypse Now, is heavily based on Heart of Darkness, just made into a Vietnam War setting. I had grown up watching the movie first with my Dad (who as a career Army veteran still thought highly of it) and then in AP English in HS imagine my surprise when we read the book.
OrganizationCreepy42 t1_j6piw7k wrote
When comes to something this mass, its hard to pin down exact numbers unless there is concentration camp level book keeping.
For example, the Silent Holocaust in the 80's has a range of 32,000-166,000
And the Rwandan Genocide has a 491,000-800,000 est and that was in the 90s
JPJRANGER t1_j6kys2f wrote
Somebody been listening to Behind the bastards