What will the future of Vermont ski towns look like?

Submitted by The_Idealist_Realist t3_11vuxq9 in vermont

Vermont needs to grow, and building more housing is necessary to accommodate a larger population.

The Vermont Senate is working on legislation to ease zoning restrictions that could enable greater development within the footprint of the existing built environment. Act 250 modifications are also being discussed.

Killington's TIF district has been approved and can now construct a new water system (!!), access road, and the first phase of a village in its existing parking lots.

These changes are exciting and are important for the next phase of Vermont's history. As Vermont begins a period of leveling up, what would you like the villages surrounding Vermont's ski mountains to look and feel like?

Will the state allow new developments to be built on a walkable scale rather than rely on car dependency?

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No-Ganache7168 t1_jcvwcdi wrote

Reminds me of years ago when Stowe Mountain Resort (now Vail) got the permits for its new village. If you're a millionaire you can afford a ski-in, ski-out villa or a share in the grand hotel. None of the development has provided housing for locals. If anything, the expansion of the resort made stowe more attractive to second n, pushing more locals out.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jcvaora wrote

The future of VT ski towns will probably like the future of VT. Continuing to get older and wealthier.

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[deleted] t1_jcwnjhi wrote

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tensleepmcgee t1_jcwqfec wrote

Yes, live in Wy, spent chunks of my life in NE. I was checking the VT sub because oddly enough im thinking through lately….

New England has many overlaps with what drew people west, but with sane politics but more importantly safe water access.

The political craziness with come and go in the mtn west, but the water issues won’t.

Where is 10-100+ acres of land with a beautiful farmhouse and barn, close-ish to metros, mountains, no/low taxes, … but also safe water and under $500k (or much less).

New England. People will start doing the math as the water crisis lands. Only counterbalance I could see is if NE loses its snow such that the skiing drops off.

And to the point here - ya that amount of inbound interest will do craziness to the states that receive it. When the resorts and airport proposals start, best to do highly skeptical reviews locally Colorado and Montana went first, I think Wyoming is a bit more on guard now.

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kellogsmalone t1_jcxkdyw wrote

Dude...

If my brain was a dartboard. Bullseye. But I had this realization back in 2016 while Vermont was still net a population loss. The secret was out after the pandemic. My wife and I finally made it work though. And yes, things are expensive, but they're that way everywhere. Housing is expensive everywhere. The problem is Vermonts inventory is just so so low. It's tough for people to get here. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jd8ziql wrote

It's tough for working people to get here. Rich people seem to have no problem at all. VT is becoming very exclusive. I'm sure some old people see that as a good thing, for me it's a reason to leave.

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kellogsmalone t1_jda6161 wrote

I think Vermont has always been pretty exclusive...like since it's inception. It fell between the British colonies and the French water routes and so it never got attention until Benning Wentworth started the New Hampshire grants, even then it was disputed territory. Seems the history is alive and well in some form or fashion.

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JaxBratt t1_jcv99gr wrote

Vermont does not “NEED” to grow and accommodate a larger population. Some may WANT it to.

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czo79 t1_jcvaerv wrote

Seriously. The whole reason Vermont is special and is what it is today is because anyone with a brain left and went west after John Deere invented the steel plow, and there's never been much of a reason to come here since. You have to love it. But we've also avoided a lot of the worst of endless growth and boom and bust economic cycles. I'm afraid the future is bleak, and there's probably not much that can be done about it.

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SmoothSlavperator t1_jcyeh0r wrote

Skip ahead a few years. Its the post war era.

The stone industry contracted and VT heavily resisted infrastructure upgrades to allow other industry to fill the vacuum (Interstate 92 anyone?). Skip ahead a few decades and we have a brain-drain problem since anyone with a skillset leaves to regions that offer jobs in the skillset. You can't open a business without importing your own employees since none of the locals have the skillsets to be employed and you're stuck in a death spiral of strip malls and dollar stores that looks more like the midwest than new england. Burlington only survives because it has the captive-college thing the Boston has going on but like Boston, the cost of living is going to drive grads out but with a smaller population, it will be less fault-tolerant. The church street derelicts are just the beginning.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jd4cmvf wrote

This is already happening. Hiring in Vermont is an absolute disaster and theres plenty of reason to expect it to get worse and no reason to expect it to get better.

If the current gentrification trend continues its hard to imagine how VT will staff anything relying on local labor in ten years, if not sooner.

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[deleted] t1_jcw79v2 wrote

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ResponsibleExcuse727 t1_jcwixfw wrote

Will go back to old fashion work force housing. Forcing us locals to live in company owned houses to serve the wealthy. Musk is doing it in Texas it’s only a matter of time before someone finds this as the “solution” to the housing crisis up here.

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[deleted] t1_jcw572y wrote

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[deleted] t1_jcw7m2j wrote

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[deleted] t1_jcwhukg wrote

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jcxreco wrote

Yeah, there is no fixing this. VT's future is as an exclusively wealthy place and this is obvious to anyone willing to see it. Housing prices have absolutely no relation to wages here.

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dmccullum t1_jcxmj2u wrote

Vermont has the second worst homelessness crisis in the nation, so yes we need to grow to accommodate people unless we’re okay with just letting disadvantaged people get chewed up and spit out on the street.

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Snatchwranglerr t1_jcxs9ji wrote

Pssst…. I don’t think you’ve seen California lately.

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dmccullum t1_jcy2mb7 wrote

California is the only state with a worse homelessness crisis than Vermont…and it’s because they have even worse housing availability than Vermont.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jcy42fa wrote

They have a higher vacancy rate, meaning more available housing, and it's more affordable than here if you consider wages.

California is one of the only blue states that is warm year round, that's why it has so many homeless.

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The_Barbelo t1_jd7q0zg wrote

Other red places also buy the homeless bus tickets to California, and the only reason they won’t ship them off here is exactly what you said. Clearly from this thread we can’t even agree on stuff because there are a few harsh realities Vermonters are unwilling to face and no one knows what the solution is. Someone here asked me why I just don’t move out if I don’t like it, to a more “walkable” place. It isn’t that simple, I didn’t feel like I need to justify myself to him but you know exactly what the problem is so I’ll tell you…I was homeless for 6 months during Covid. With a job/ decent income because of the crisis, and we weren’t the only displaced family…what I didn’t tell that guy who has since deleted his responses to me.. is that my husband and I ARE working on moving out. We just have to save up where money (a difficult thing to do in Vermont) And you bet I have some pretty harsh criticisms for how a lot of people are in Lala land here. I love this place, a lot…I just can’t keep living here and have a passable quality life anymore.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jd908sz wrote

That's it. Even this sub is all posts about pretty snow or dogs playing in snow or "vermonting", whatever that is.

The reality is lots of people, even those making good money, are on the edge of homelessness because they're living in a dumpy VT rental that could fail inspection at any time.

The quality of life here for people who aren't making at least six figures is really, really low.

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The_Barbelo t1_jd9crcu wrote

Yes. Thank you. I’m glad there are a few here who understand.

I’ll put it into perspective for other people…I make as much as an X-ray technician. In most other states I’d be living pretty comfortably. Here… I’m living low class. I can save about $200-$400 a month, unless we have an emergency, like my dog contracting lime or car repairs…Then there goes a bunch of it. To move out we need to pay an awful lot. First, last, and security of the new place on top of a moving rental, enough to pay a few months of rent while we find jobs, enough for a few months worth of food for 2 grown adults, two cats, a dog. I have multiple health issues, including type 1 diabetes. I need a few months worth of meds and an emergency supply.

I can not stand when people aren’t willing to see things from the perspectives of those who are struggling, forgotten, and downtrodden. My mother acts like this, she’s getting everything payed for by my stepdad who makes a good amount…and she’s in Lala land about the world. I’m pretty fucked up because of her… And this thread proves to me exactly what Ive noticed about certain Vermonters offline.

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Paid-Not-Payed-Bot t1_jd9csey wrote

> getting everything paid for by

FTFY.

Although payed exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:

  • Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. The deck is yet to be payed.

  • Payed out when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. The rope is payed out! You can pull now.

Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.

Beep, boop, I'm a bot

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Unique-Public-8594 t1_jcv5lkh wrote

Would like to see more housing in walkable zones but also require developers to build something charming, not ugly.

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No-Ganache7168 t1_jcvwi5w wrote

My thoughts exactly. Small homes on small lots can certainly be charming. Craftsmans anyone?

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Unique-Public-8594 t1_jcw0er3 wrote

apartment buildings can be charming too with a little extra effort.

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No-Ganache7168 t1_jcxluc1 wrote

Yes. There are old apartment buildings in my town that are attractive 100 years after they were built.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jd4c4bt wrote

From the outside maybe. Those are likely just the sort of dumpy Vermont rentals that would be crackhouses in most states but are considered acceptable housing here.

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Alive_Net464 t1_jcvkhgg wrote

Whether or not people like it, housing needs to be built. High end homes are constantly being built with no push back. And while high end home building and remodeling keeps me employed, it doesn’t help keep a literal roof over my head.

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dmccullum t1_jd0621i wrote

I think this is the core of the argument. Rich people will have no problem getting homes built wherever they want… the only question is whether Vermonters are willing to build affordable housing for the rest of us.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jd4byep wrote

The answer, unfortunately, is no.

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dmccullum t1_jd4dv79 wrote

I guess I’m just more optimistic on this point, although I respect your right to disagree. I don’t see this as being set in stone. Housing is a human right that’s worth fighting for, even if the odds are long.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jd8zqkh wrote

I don't disagree, but moving to a place that wants people other than old rich people to live there makes a lot more sense than trying to find a place here. Finding a job in another state is easier than finding quality housing in VT.

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Badbadluuck t1_jcwadtx wrote

There are studies projecting that many vt ski resorts will cease to operate by 2050 due to a lack of snow.

So there’s that

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wasowka t1_jcvirrd wrote

Wouldn’t it be nice if development took into consideration the needs of people and the protection of the environment instead of the needs of commerce and profit making. Certainly under a capitalistic model, commerce and profit link people with jobs that they need to survive (not thrive)- but wouldn’t it be amazing to build a whole new way of living. A whole new way of life and true liberty. Just imagine.

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wampastompa09 t1_jcyywga wrote

I’m so hopeful for my child, and our collective children’s sake we fucking drop this obsession with growth and think about how we can responsibly exist in this world.

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wasowka t1_jd04crb wrote

I’m so with you on this and I so want a better world for our children. What an tragedy for humanity and for the planet that we are forced to exist under such an exploitative system that permeates everything.

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The_Barbelo t1_jcwx78h wrote

Absolutely, we need walkable towns!!! and I HATE the zoning problem.

Ive been watching a lot of shows that take place in Asia lately (Old Enough on Netflix is adorable, i highly recommend it) and one thing I notice is how they incorporate shops into neighborhoods. You’d think it would look trashy because we are so used to strip malls and corporate areas here but I’m talking mom and pop shops. Specialty stuff, independent shops…I’d love for us to try something like that. I think there are a lot of European towns set up like this too.

It would also be incentive to push out corporate chains. Though, I was just at Newbury street in Boston today and noticed that even with certain chains, you can still have some of them around under apartments in a way that looks pleasant and inviting.

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Loudergood t1_jdasjeq wrote

Just build more brick block buildings in downtowns and villages, 3 or 4 stories with commercial on the ground level. There's something that incentivizes landlords to keep those commercial spots vacant rather than cheap though, and we'd have to solve that.

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[deleted] t1_jcwzfim wrote

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The_Barbelo t1_jcwzjos wrote

Well…I don’t know, a lot of things I wish would change here are pipe dreams. I don’t know why the downvote. OP asked what we’d like the new towns to look like so…I answered.

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[deleted] t1_jcxa9yz wrote

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[deleted] t1_jcxk1fg wrote

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[deleted] t1_jcy2q46 wrote

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[deleted] t1_jcyarqy wrote

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Plus-Birthday1987 t1_jcz3tjp wrote

i love these people that just rather bitch about where they live than move 😂 we live in a tiny, mountainous state, theres not a lot thats going to make it more “walkable” other than the towns that already are.

is VT supposed to just start adding sidewalks along miles of rural routes? lol

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[deleted] t1_jczfwj0 wrote

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[deleted] t1_jd00j7c wrote

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[deleted] t1_jd09vqy wrote

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Plus-Birthday1987 t1_jd0i5j6 wrote

“they can decide it for themselves”

seems like they have a hard time deciding anything on their own tho 😂 some people just prefer to be miserable-ists. they get off on complaining about things instead of just taking matters into their own hands and finding a solution

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[deleted] t1_jd0qr1o wrote

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Plus-Birthday1987 t1_jd0zpad wrote

i actually started a kickstarter, gained $200K, then forced my town of 236 people to put in sidewalks along dirt roads and rural routes! now that my kids can walk, they LOVE the 12 mile walk to and from school each day! and on a warm sunny weekend afternoon, the 9 mile walk to the grocery store has never been easier!

/s

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dmccullum t1_jcy2v2i wrote

It’s literally happening right now in South Burlington town center…

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The_Barbelo t1_jcxz053 wrote

The way this guy talks to people in his other comments I read… he seems to like to think everyone else is an idiot and that he knows best because he is a professional. I don’t think anyone can convince him to think imaginatively when it comes to others, or jump into someone else’s shoes to consider things from others’ perspective. What kind of planning can you even do around here?!? He won’t even tell us!!!

Instead of teaching people about what he knows in a kind way, he just sounds angry. I hope he’s ok…but I think it’s pointless for anyone to keep talking to him.

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[deleted] t1_jd0pr2z wrote

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The_Barbelo t1_jd16a33 wrote

Is having local businesses right by where people live not a good enough proposition. Who ever said i meant Vermont as a whole?! There are a lot of things I’d like to see change that i know won’t be feasible. You still aren’t trying to teach me. You’ve already written me off as an idiot so why should I even try? I was only talking about the ski town, what they could build…no one said anything about ripping down Vermont. Seriously read my comment again. The post is about developing the ski town, OP asked what we’d like to see IN THE FUTURE SKI TOWNS. I WAS ONLY TALKING ABOUT THE SKI TOWN.

In animation we call what I was doing spitballing. People very rarely make entire animated films from one spitball conversation.

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Jerry_Williams69 t1_jcvfjtt wrote

It really depends on if the new housing ends up helping locals and transplants. If it mostly ends up benefiting wealthy vacationers and investors, we will end up with areas like Gatlinburg, TN and Severville, TN. Over the top tourist traps with poor surrounding communities respectively. If locals and transplants get priority in new housing, there will be some urban sprawl around bigger towns like Burlington, Montpelier, and Middlebury. Those communities could end up being pretty strong. Doubt the more rural parts of the state would change much. Same goes for the ski resorts. The Stowe area in general might explode.

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WinstonAtlas t1_jcw22xy wrote

I hope we can learn from some other rural tourist dependent places and build a little bit of rail accessible travel.

Having a smol train come once an hour on some single track mountain lines, like is done to serve ski towns in Switzerland or Japan, could really take the toll off of rural roads that get overwhelmed with tourists during peak seasons. More walkable towns with 5-7 story buildings where both locals and tourists can afford to stay, and less $30 per day parking spaces in the mountains.

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HayrideTrail t1_jcxn029 wrote

So you want to build a train station, parking., access roads, an electric catenary, a power sub station and put this on an easement built through town with flashing safety lights. Is this the idea?

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WinstonAtlas t1_jd62uo7 wrote

I think you’d avoid creating new lines. See what you can serve with existing rail ROW, and if some resort investor wants to bring it to Stowe, then you could think about what the best alignment is. Generally you want to avoid going through towns, because eminent domain is expensive

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HayrideTrail t1_jd7ttqm wrote

Existing rail right of ways either don’t exist or have been converted to bike paths. This is true through-out New England and elsewhere. Rail had its day in the mid 1800s.

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AlexG55 t1_jcydvgn wrote

There's an active railroad that goes through Okemo ski resort, with chairlifts and bridges with ski trails going over it. It doesn't have passenger service at the moment- I sometimes daydream about whether it would be possible to run a sleeper service there from New York.

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Loosh_03062 t1_jcylegy wrote

Unlikely, considering the once-daily-each-direction Vermonter doesn't (outside of major problems)) do overnight6 runs and doesn't have sleeper cars in the consist. The closest it gets to Okemo is Bellows Falls and the best anyone could hope for would be a shuttle bus making the trip up and down 103 to connect to the Amtrak route. Even Killington doesn't justify more than a shuttle from Rutland when the Ethan Allen goes through. I don't think anyone sees enough potential return on investment from building a Jackson Gore station, upgrading the infrastructure, and conning anyone into running scheduled passenger service.

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AlexG55 t1_jcyuu5o wrote

This would have to be a private excursion-charter service like they have in Europe (for instance there's a weekly sleeper from the Netherlands to the Alps in winter which isn't a regular scheduled service and isn't run by a normal operator).

Sadly I think the financial and regulation environment in the US make it impractical to run something like that at a price people would pay.

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WinstonAtlas t1_jd62ao8 wrote

I think you could justify running extended Empire Corridor train per day past Okemo in the winter, if it wasn’t too expensive to upgrade the tracks. Definitely a limited amount of people to use it and it’s a small resort. But maybe it would grow with a promise of rail service.

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clonezilla t1_jcvex76 wrote

Whatever happens STR needs to be addressed appropriately. Them alone and those that invest in them are the biggest blockers for first time home buyers right now.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jcvf7fm wrote

The problem is vermont doesn't build near enough housing. We have the largest average lot size in America. Condos in Chittenden County now cost $400,000.

There's no fixing this.

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clonezilla t1_jcvfoyh wrote

I agree. Had several experiences last year looking to buy our first home where we were outbid by cash offers and then the homes were the AirBnB’d.

Can’t compete with cash offers as a first time home buyer.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jcvxrev wrote

VT either builds until it's not VT anymore or stays exclusively wealthy. Both options suck. The new VT also sucks.

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Twombls t1_jcw9q3v wrote

You can't build your way out of an investor frenzy though

You need to ban airbnbs AND build

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jcz5who wrote

Banning air bnb and building is a start but I still don't see how any new housing isn't snapped up by the next person moving here from Jersey with more money than the locals.

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ANTI-PUGSLY t1_jd36pnz wrote

I've driven an hour south to Killington a dozen times this winter and see the same houses with dead Christmas wreaths on the doors for the last 3 months. Imagine having a ski home you don't even visit during ski season? Drives me crazy.

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SVTer t1_jcyco63 wrote

Just need to look at places like Jackson and Telluride. Resort towns will only get more expensive and elite. Those that actually depend on local jobs and wages will be pushed to low income regional hubs (Barre, Newport, Springfield, etc). Land and homesteads are quickly becoming out of reach for Vermont wages hence all the talk around the state about “developing downtowns”.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jd90m6h wrote

They're going to be really disappointed when they figure out the workforce moved rather than live in some dumpy shoebox to serve the Mcmansion crowd.

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VermontRox t1_jcyg0yd wrote

Why does Vermont “need” to grow?

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wampastompa09 t1_jcywnan wrote

I asked the same question and got downvoted.

Our society is self-obsessed, and output-obsessed.

Year-over-year growth is bad for the planet. We can’t just keep growing and expect the planet to sustain our “way of life.”

It’s neocapitalist bullshit.

Ethical capitalism is possible, and we need not be obsessed with growth.

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xmanpit t1_jcyp7ep wrote

Honestly, I left Vermont because there is no decent work to be done aside from restaurants and grocery stores, and I couldn't find any housing, but I couldn't afford it if I did. A big fuck you to Hannafords for the 12.15 an hour and 24 hours a week. Now I live in AZ and work from home selling insurance, making about 26$ an hour. My other gripe is there's not a lot to do. Being from Rutland and losing our movie theater, it just feels like there's no youth culture aside from hiking. If I was lucky, I could go to Burlington, but shits expensive there.

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RandyCheeseburgers01 t1_jczhxre wrote

>My other gripe is there's not a lot to do.

I think you done messed up if you moved to Vermont expecting big city amenities and culture.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jd90ymj wrote

From Rutland. So they moved to Rutland when they came out of their mom. Not everyone moved here to escape New Jersey.

What this person is describing is why most people I know from high school left and did not come back.

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xmanpit t1_jczj05p wrote

I didn't move there with that expectation. I lived there most my life. Just got bored after I experienced the rest of the world.

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huskers2468 t1_jcvo1h5 wrote

The parking permit/payment worked this year for Stowe to keep the traffic down. First and foremost, Stowe needs public transit such as a tram to allow for easier travel between downtown and the mountain. There are no Ubers out here, which puts a limit on local business.

Additionally, I hope they build both condominiums and apartments for workers.

That's all. Keep it feeling open.

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wampastompa09 t1_jcxw70q wrote

Your very first words are, “Vermont needs to grow…”

Why does Vermont need to grow?

What is the obsession western society has with growth?

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GimmieJohnson t1_jcymte3 wrote

Because it will shrink. Being a cutesy little mountainous state isn't going to cut it forever.

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wampastompa09 t1_jcyyhmh wrote

Well, as the sea levels rise and people continue to obsess over growth and ignore what scientists are screaming about…we can examine what ecosystems to disrupt to put up billboards in the name of growth.

Continuing to follow the path we’ve been on as a collective species is just a path of insanity, arrogance, and ultimately destruction.

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vttale t1_jcya08o wrote

I don't know whether you're right or wrong, yet it has to be observed that you start out with an unproven assertion, that Vermont needs to grow. While continual growth is the mantra of one branch of economics, it is also questioned by other economists as not necessarily being a necessary foundational principal of a healthy society.

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Climate_Face t1_jcy4ac3 wrote

Until air bnb/vrbo is capped or banned, ski towns will die

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jcyi8gw wrote

How many more years until they're no longer ski towns due to climate? 20? 30?

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GimmieJohnson t1_jcymn6q wrote

I would say right now.

Vermont needs to stop relying on ski towns for a boost of revenue. Find something else. Develop more into lakes, towns and cities. Relying on out of state money isn't gonna cut it. Get rid of or severely loosen up act 250

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jsudarskyvt t1_jcz1lxk wrote

Unless humans kick their fossil fuel addiction there won't be ski towns in Vermonts future.

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Snatchwranglerr t1_jcxs29f wrote

Ha… VT is the third most expensive state to live in… so bring a wheelbarrow full of cash if you even want a modest home … along with a healthy amount of tolerance for the excessive amount of drug addicts and scumbags flocking here for our ridiculously generous welfare program.

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[deleted] t1_jcyha3w wrote

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Loudergood t1_jdatpsh wrote

This is honestly a big failure of restaurant owners. If they can't afford to pay workers enough to stay(lots of them are reducing hours and therefore restaurant table availability) then they need to raise prices because demand is outstripping supply.

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vermont4runner t1_jcv0i1r wrote

It’s Vermont. The land itself tends to not be walkable friendly from a development standpoint. Unless you plan to flatten the entire area like Pennsylvania or Massachusetts things will be mostly car dependent.

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dmccullum t1_jcxmtxj wrote

We don’t need to “pave Mount Mansfield and put up a parking lot.”

There is PLENTY of room in our existing cities and towns to build dense, walkable housing. Just get rid of lot minimums and stupid zoning restrictions.

Vermont can have abundant wild spaces AND housing.

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vermont4runner t1_jcxwnwx wrote

There’s really not. Those existing cities and areas are built on very old infrastructure that wasn’t designed for denser development. There is far more to urban planning than just zoning regulations.

Prime example. My town has sidewalks that need to be rebuilt. The 1/2mi stretch will cost millions to do because modern sidewalks have very different drainage requirements than old slate ones. Many in town just say “pave over them” but it’s not possible because it’ll flood the rest of the town. There is so much more behind the scenes work.

Burlington would require whole new sewage and water systems coming up in the billions of dollars just to shove a few more units per block in. That’s money nobody has.

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RandyCheeseburgers01 t1_jczit7u wrote

>Those existing cities and areas are built on very old infrastructure that wasn’t designed for denser development.

Manhattan Island was once a fur trading post settlement with a similar problem. They made it work OK.

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Loudergood t1_jdasu1w wrote

Burlington reinvents it's water system every decade or so.

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vermont4runner t1_jdau9ri wrote

If you mean overflows it into the lake than you are correct.

They’re not ripping the entire system up and replacing it, ever.

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Loudergood t1_jdayf4e wrote

You're wrong on that, they do lots of miles every year and major upgrades to the plant about once a decade.

The overflows are caused by the same thing that causes increased farm runoff, stronger storms.

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RandyCheeseburgers01 t1_jczi9f6 wrote

>Vermont can have abundant wild spaces AND housing.

In fact, limiting sprawl and increasing housing density (and density in general) will allow for more wild areas to be preserved.

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[deleted] t1_jcw82wj wrote

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vermont4runner t1_jcw95fn wrote

SF is hilly and warm. VT is mountainous and those mountains get coated in ice. Not the same at all.

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obiwanjabroni420 t1_jcxusjs wrote

San Francisco is also a very dense city on a small peninsula with no real winter, so I’m not really sure what your point is.

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Illustrious-Study237 t1_jcvbk43 wrote

No, Vermont does not NEED to grow. It’s fine the way it is. Full stop. From an NH resident with love for Vermont xx

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Twombls t1_jcwaex1 wrote

Yeah as a vermonter I agree. We need to grow our housing stock and increase industry beyond just tourism. But I dont really think we need to grow infinitely. I am fine being a small state.

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polarpanzie t1_jcvh0x9 wrote

If you’re not a Vermonter your input on what Vt needs is irrelevant. Our homeless population is growing, and demand for housing far outweighs the supply which has made costs far surpass our income growth.

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677536543 t1_jcxyvys wrote

Whatever happens, it needs to be done with a car-less future in mind. Walking paths and/or electric monorails over every notch. Don't believe me? Just ask the people of Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook how monorails worked for them!

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booksareadrug t1_jcyvvku wrote

I grew up in Vermont and now live in central New York state. I've started looking for a house out here and I check the Vermont real estate market occasionally to see what prices are. It's ridiculous and will only get more so unless more housing gets built.

So yes, Vermont needs to grow. Or else the population will drop as no one will be able to afford to live there.

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Krusch420 t1_jczjynj wrote

Vermont ski towns need public transportation.

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