Submitted by thedvlandgod t3_10dug42 in vermont
Comments
blE3p_bl00p t1_j4ofcc8 wrote
Can confirm, racist things get said out in that area and the teachers never used to do shit, granted I'm speaking from a decade ago, but even then I think the casual racism was pretty out of place in the modern world (in VT) even then and the admins certainly didn't do anything to stop it.
If it's the parents though what exactly do you want the school to do besides kick the individuals out of the games? Honest question, public schools only have so much power when the parents spout racist bullshit at home
fallsstandard t1_j4oftdh wrote
I know what you mean, also where I went to school sounds like just a few years before you. There was a period in the late 90’s/early 00’s where the favorite was to call anything you didn’t like “Jewish.”
Twombls t1_j4q1sjz wrote
This also just happened at cvu on friday so I wouldn't explicitly blame it on "that area"
Historical-Run-1511 t1_j4qdftc wrote
My teens tell me that EF and CV are pretty notorious for racist bs at games. I don't know what the school can do about the parents other than ban them from games after the fact, but I respect the kids for saying fuck that we're not going there. It's more than they should have to put up with over a game.
d-cent t1_j4qqavs wrote
What i would want is the school to have security kick the person out immediately and ban them from future games. If it continues to happen, they need to have closed games with no fans
blE3p_bl00p t1_j4y2kq2 wrote
Who is this security you speak of at after hours games? Seriously.... I'm pretty sure the school cops are only around during school hours and not at every event, unless something changed? Also as far as I know not every high school even has one of those security officers, mine didn't when I was there.
That's kind of the problem, it comes down to whatever small number of school officials (usually under 5) who are actually at the game and making the decision to call the police on a parent is a hard line to cross, especially when the asshat will always scream freedom of speech if the police come after them.
As much as I consider it abuse and harassment if they aren't actively assaulting someone the police don't usually want to get involved and then you have a teacher trying to forcibly remove a parent. We don't give them the resources to do things like that in small towns....
ceiffhikare t1_j4pvkar wrote
I think if you did a schoolwide..hell even a state wide ban on sports for 1,2,3 years that MIGHT be enough to drive home the point that this stuff is Extra-curricular and not really relevant to actual education. Put it back on the communities that support student athletics to be held accountable as a whole..see how fast this stuff gets nipped when everybody pays for the ignorant actions of a few.
RamaSchneider t1_j4ph1d1 wrote
Here's a point of personal responsibility for folks to keep in mind: not a single one of us was born racist. Some of us were raised by our families and communities to be that way, and some of us weren't.
Yeah - looking at you "adults".
Kitchen_Nail_6779 t1_j4pxbqa wrote
If this is a continuing problem that the school is not addressing then the VPA needs to step up and provide some leadership. If it's coming from the stands and not the players themselves then, at the very least, the school should not be allowed to have spectators for a specified amount of time.
It's actually embarrassing that children are the ones that have to take a stand on this issue since the 'adults' in charge don't seem to be doing enough or taking the matter as seriously as they should.
Embonious t1_j4q05qv wrote
" The school’s principal, Joseph Donarum, was put on leave Feb. 11 after repeating offensive language over the building’s intercom system that students had allegedly used during the game "
sorry but LOL this is classic hapless principal
MLD802 t1_j4p7d8z wrote
Where do they go from here? From my understanding it appears it’s fans, not players, that are yelling obscenities. What steps can enosburg take? Not allow fans? Idk
Decembergardener t1_j4pj1hk wrote
Yes. The whole tolerance of fans spewing hate has got to stop. Recently my friend heard a parent from Colchester yell to 7 year old girl hockey players to “break her arm” among other things.
Pyroechidna1 t1_j4pb9zt wrote
That sounds like a good first step
Wright606 t1_j4q896w wrote
The article stipulates what they're doing.
d-cent t1_j4qquta wrote
It did? All I read was that they were discussing it. I didn't see it actually say what Enosburg was going to do about it
joeconn4 t1_j4tqxxx wrote
No spectators allowed but the game is played would send one heck of a message to that community.
sweintraub t1_j4pu6ag wrote
Sad to hear this but glad it is being addressed. Vermont is better than this
memorytheatre t1_j4qhiqd wrote
Vermont is where it happened. So... not better.
RandolphCarter15 t1_j4o6snv wrote
It would be helpful to know what the players wanted and what steps they thought weren't enough
ArkeryStarkery t1_j4o9nov wrote
>Burrows made it clear the choice was student-driven due to an issue that he said has cropped up too many times in Vermont in recent years, not just at Enosburg
So, the players wanted this outcome. As for the insufficient measures, you're right that it doesn't specify, but reading between the lines I'd guess that Enosburg asked Middlebury to come do their homework for them and Middlebury quite rightly declined.
bobsizzle t1_j4ryzv3 wrote
Racism isn't new. But when I was in high school, the team having problems would show up and stomp the racist town, using racism as motivation. That didn't always shut them up, but it made them mad to lose. Skipping a game just looks weak.
Intelligent-Hunt7557 t1_j4s9vmr wrote
You mean the Just Debate The Nazis plan? Yeah that doesn’t really work that well. Mostly because using anger to fuel competitiveness is quite literally inspiration porn. Asking a team to play with an injury (however pooh-poohed here) is not very civil. Potentially fueling the Racism Wins narrative is not very smart.
bobsizzle t1_j4savpg wrote
There's no debate. It's just shutting them up by showing up. Beating them is great, but standing up to them is better. Not playing is probably a win for the racists. They get the victory if you forfeit and the racists are happy you're not there. I wouldn't let a few people and a few words stop me from doing anything. There is no victory in that. Why hide from bullies?
Intelligent-Hunt7557 t1_j4sbfmr wrote
The adults in the stands have failed to police their own. They have failed the kids. You have no business pitting the sports teams against their racist detractors. But more importantly our opinions don’t matter. The student-athletes will make their own decision. Or are you actually advocating for someone to pressure them to play?
bobsizzle t1_j4scwn1 wrote
You're advocating for them to let someone pressure them not to play. They can do what they want, but they're letting supposed racists dictate their life to them. There's a benefit to showing up and confronting bullies. There really isn't any benefit to forfeiting a game. It makes them look weak and scared to get their feelings hurt. And those are kids that grow up to be weak individuals. Or reliant on others. fight your battles and don't let words control you.
No one should pressure the kids to play. They should already know what to do. If they can't stand up for themselves, they are already lost.
Intelligent-Hunt7557 t1_j4sjogr wrote
Your views on what is ‘weak’ go back to the Debating Nazis elements—‘just debate them, what’s so hard about that’?
Your error is in assuming the most righteous team will win. The lesson the students are learning is that their participation is voluntary and systems take their labor for granted at their peril. But sure, ‘shut up and play’ is one option…
bobsizzle t1_j4somoj wrote
Again, it's not a debate. It's about self respect. They're letting someone else control their lives. Even if they lose the game, they still stood up for themselves.
And they're playing sports because they want to. No one is forcing anyone to play. In this matter, self respect should motivate them not to quit because some people are mean to them. This isn't 'shut up and play ' . That's stupid. They should speak up AND play. You're alluding to the NBA taking a stand. I don't remember any NBA teams forfeiting any Celtics games over racist fans.
I don't care if they play or not. They're not that good and it makes no difference what they do as far as the game. But In life, not playing a team because some people are racist doesn't help anything. Play them. Speak out. Forfeiting is letting them win and doesn't change anything. I don't know what these parents and students are saying. I imagine the worst. But MLK didn't stop protesting because people called him names. If you want to make a stand, actually stand up. Win or lose, showing up and speaking out makes a stronger point then not showing at all. Especially if they like to play.
I used to play on courts in California in the 90s and I'm white and I heard all kinds of names and white men can't jump references. I didn't care enough to quit. Trash talk or racism, or both, I don't know. You get respect for not quitting. I get why they don't want to play. But I don't think it's the right choice.
Intelligent-Hunt7557 t1_j4tb44j wrote
That you want to pressure the kids to play instead of pressure the administration or fans to solve the problem is telling. We have plenty of those boss-sucking messages in society already today- ‘suck it up’- ‘grind it out’- ‘walk it off.’ You’re really not as invested in their wellness as you think if you’re not doing something to change the equation on the side with more power.
They know their worth and what they shouldn’t have to put up with. Coercing kids to accept less is immoral.
‘Debate,’ by the way, in the common parlance is any conflict of ideas or disagreement. It need not be a formal occasion with a debating society. Living human lives is about persuading others and ‘refusing to play is weakness’ is definitely too Cobra Kai for my taste…
thisoneisnotasbad t1_j4undhy wrote
While I’m kinda with you, the other dudes plan does have some historical precedent. Since you decided to jump right to hitler, the 1936 olympics are a pretty famous debate the nazi thing you are talking about. Your argument would not have the us or anyone participate and certainly not have Jesse Owens compete.
Intelligent-Hunt7557 t1_j4w2uyj wrote
So you think Enosburgh’s players and parents must be appeased so that they don’t invade? LOL.
The actual facts of the 1936 Olympics were so embarrassing for the US and/or boring that white America mostly made shit up, most of which is believed to this day. Jesse himself got sick of people not believing him and eventually co-signed the bullshit. I’d be happy to dive into the facts but maybe just Google ‘1936 Olympic myths’ yourself?
thisoneisnotasbad t1_j4wr9iw wrote
Sorry bud, I don’t debate nazis.
Eagle_Arm t1_j5ke0p4 wrote
You are doing a great job of debating points u/bobsizzle never brought up and actively avoiding their actual reasoning. I'm not sure how much more clear they could make their point, but I guess it's easier to make yourself feel right when don't 'debate' the actual topic.
Intelligent-Hunt7557 t1_j5ko91u wrote
Just because the words ‘shut up and play’ weren’t typed doesn’t mean the ideas weren’t in there. I mean it really wasn’t a well-thought-out plan t begin with. Maybe u/bobsizzle knows - why would loser racists be more quiet in the stands after having been beaten? Ever hear of 1/6?
Eagle_Arm t1_j5kr9i9 wrote
Yup, you're absolutely right. That's what they meant when they typed. They didn't typed that and instead typed different words with different meanings, but that's what they meant. It's without a doubt that, rather than the words they actually typed. I'm feeling fortunate you could translate and call out the second-coming of Hitler over here!
How could anyone take the words they actually wrote and thought that those were the words they meant to type out, when they achtullly meant, "shut up and play"?
I'm glad my blinders were pulled off and I can now see their unwritten meaning that someone else concocted rather than what the person wrote themselves!
[deleted] t1_j4nhe0t wrote
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SuperSaiyan2012 t1_j5dengu wrote
This is not a good look for Enosburg at all. Their increasing racism issue is really bad and from what I remember some years ago, it might be because of their lack of diversity. The education on race and other identities over the last few years has been lacking. In general, the Franklin school board better take a good look at this and fast.
[deleted] t1_j4nljfz wrote
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raz0rsnak3 t1_j4r0xmv wrote
Yeah, let's not ignore the fact that almost EVERY form of competition at every level has elements of "offensive language" and racism. Often times the person trash talking is just going for the most offensive word/phrase of the day to illicit a reaction.
While it's not right and these parents need to be removed, maybe we can put more effort into overcoming these feelings of being offended and how to persevere regardless.
Or we can cancel sporting events, remove spectators, and nerf the world...
vtskier8022 t1_j4rjqb5 wrote
If you are using racist language to elicit a reaction, you are being racist.
raz0rsnak3 t1_j4rp31o wrote
Yeah, I disagree on that. Just because someone says a word that is deemed 'racist' doesn't mean that the person has actual hate for a race in their heart. It makes them a stupid asshole, but it doesn't make them David Duke.
vtskier8022 t1_j4uhafi wrote
Actually it does. If you are aware that a phrase is a racial slur but you still believe that it is acceptable to use in day to day life then you are in fact, racist.
A person who values each person individually would say “wow there are millions of other words to use, I will just not use the hateful slur.”
raz0rsnak3 t1_j4umfzc wrote
Yeah, I don't mean acceptable in day to day life. You're not getting what I'm saying and are most concerned with labeling a person as something. Not suprised!
vtskier8022 t1_j4uya1h wrote
I know what you are getting at. People may not say it intending to cause another race harm.
That said, when a person decides to use a racial slur just to like, talk smack or whatever, they are deciding that those words are acceptable to use directed at another person. Deciding that racial slurs are ok to use in a context like that speaks to that persons view on race.
Intelligent-Hunt7557 t1_j4saf3w wrote
This is the kind of weaselly forum-shopping that comprises intellectual dishonesty. None of us has the time or expertise to know ‘what’s in their heart’ or to separate the true-believer bigots from the grifters. You’re engineering the discussion so we throw up our hands and do nothing. Hate speech is hate.
raz0rsnak3 t1_j4upwpy wrote
Who decides what hate speech is? Who picks the words? You?
If you say a word once publicly does that make you a hateful racist?
GTFO with your one size fits all label
Intelligent-Hunt7557 t1_j4w3hgl wrote
Don’t cut yourself with that razor’s edge! You know very well who decides what words mean- users themselves! And yes, if you say the n-word the people hearing you have good reason to believe you are demonstrating racism, despite your ‘just words’ defense.
joeconn4 t1_j4ts9go wrote
Almost every form of competition at every level has elements of offensive language and racism??? Are you kidding me? I've competed in hundreds of races, coached for 20+ years, played competitive golf, racket sports, old man baseball, rec basketball and volleyball, pond hockey. Have heard very little offensive language.
It's not all sports all levels. But being around youth/HS team sports probably the worst spectator behavior I've seen/heard.
raz0rsnak3 t1_j4upe7d wrote
You ever listen to when they mic NFL players?
I didn't just say sports, I said competition. The amount of racism and trash talking in online gaming is by far the worst.
HS sports are bad because the parents are living their glory days through their child; selfish babies.
joeconn4 t1_j4w3mfn wrote
You wrote " ...almost EVERY form of competition at every level..." The NFL is one level. HS sports are another level. The thousands of competitions I've taken part in are other levels. Perhaps you feel that what I've been involved in is "sports", not "competition". I would disagree. When I'm grinding over putts to win a $10 Nassau, or trying to figure out what the oil pattern is on the lanes I'm bowling at to try to cash at a tournament, that feels like competition to me. When I was on the start line with hundreds/thousands of other people and I'm trying to have the best race I can have and beat a bunch of people, that feels like competition. When some guy is staring me down on the pitcher's mound and I know he's going to throw me his best pitch and I'm going to try to smack it, that feels like competition.
I love listening in when they mic NFL players, MLB, NBA, NHL - even more so when the players don't know what they're saying can be picked up and you get a raw look into the real stuff they say during competition. Lotsa shaky stuff, but lots of positivity/camaraderie too. Will also say I've worked the table for college B-Ball and officiated college & h.s. volleyball and from those positions you hear some stuff, from the court, from the benches, from behind us in the stands that is cringe-worthy (and a whole lot more from the bleachers that is just ridiculously misinformed). So for sure I know that sometimes offensive language and racism gets tossed around. My experience is that it's far from "almost every form of competition at every level".
raz0rsnak3 t1_j4w9w5m wrote
Look, all I'm saying is that if you're competing, don't be surprised if your opposition says something negative to you, about you, etc. Some guys actually do this on purpose to put their opponents on tilt.
IMHO, it's far better to know how to deal with these negative comments, then to attempt to remove them (which you can't).
An individual does have control over how they react to these negative or racist comments; it's a choice to let it affect you.
joeconn4 t1_j4whugv wrote
I hear what you are saying.
All I'm saying is that in my 50+ years competing, at many different levels and in wearing many different hats (competitor, coach, official, spectator), I would strongly dispute that what you initially wrote, "...almost EVERY form of competition at every level has elements of "offensive language" and racism..." is anywhere close to true.
If you had led with your last comment, I doubt I would have responded to begin with. I agree with your last comment almost 100% - with the exception that it's my personal feeling that at college, high school, grade school age sports where the competition exists to a large degree to further the education of the competitors, in those environments if offensive/racist language is being used then as a teachable moment those in charge of the competition would be serving their communities well to consider any potential sanctions including removing players from teams or having competitions without spectators. Behaviors change through both positive and negative reinforcement.
raz0rsnak3 t1_j4ws81f wrote
Totally agree with your second paragraph. I guess any time I've competed (football, track, lacrosse, bjj, pool, arm wrestling, etc...) I've been very aware of trash talking from both competitors I know and those I don't.
Honestly, I hope that the actual frequency of trash talking is more on the level that you've experienced; that would indicate progress as far as sportsmanship .
Disastrous-Baker-914 t1_j4rh1t4 wrote
I have lived my entire life in vermont and my son is 16 and plays 3 sports against all the teams stated and at no point have I ever heard anything racist said! Have I heard questionable people say that things were said "Yes". I think that people are just trying make something that isn't there to seem more equitable! Just my opion
Intelligent-Hunt7557 t1_j4saofd wrote
So in other words if you weren’t there to see it happen then it didn’t happen? Grow some empathy or compassion!
Disastrous-Baker-914 t1_j4sgz5s wrote
I have bean at every wrestling match football game and laccrosse game for as long as I can remember and I have never heard any racism!. At no point do I believe it doesn't exist, but it isn't as big of a deal that everyone is making it. I believe people are just trying to be heros at others expense!
Intelligent-Hunt7557 t1_j4sk7cb wrote
Again, ‘no big deal’ because you didn’t see it! Well by that logic racism in general is no biggie because 95% of us VTers are white so we probably don’t suffer any ills right? Plus I haven’t been the victim personally so it probably doesn’t happen.
vtskier8022 t1_j4rjmf1 wrote
Idk, I grew up in fair haven and our sports teams mostly wore white. Frequently the basketball fans would chant white power at the games. Granted this was 2004-2008 but I doubt much has changed.
Disastrous-Baker-914 t1_j4rsbb9 wrote
I'm sorry but I think that's a stretch. If you wore green and they said green power would that be racist?
vtskier8022 t1_j4uh42h wrote
No. White power is a racist slogan.
Disastrous-Baker-914 t1_j4ummtg wrote
So is black power but no one calls that one out!
vtskier8022 t1_j4uy34w wrote
I was specifically talking about a chant of white power and you were saying it is not racist.
BoringAccountName78 t1_j4nu1h5 wrote
The article was only able to find one instance related to basketball (the other was soccer) and it seems to have been one adult making the comment (although they don't say what it was).
I think the better way to go would have been to play the game and ensure that the one fan isn't allowed to watch it.
MontEcola t1_j4o5352 wrote
I read this a different way. This was the key statement in the article: "Following these events and further interactions with Enosburg administrators and school officials, Enosburg does not seem to have addressed these issues with the robustness that is required."
It states that administrators and school officials did not do enough. It says this happened over a three year period. Enough already. Therefore, I support the players' decision to not play the game. This does need to blow up into a state wide discussion among teams.
Enosburg should be embarrassed, as should all of the school administrators in that entire district.
Confused_Fangirl t1_j4p5eoa wrote
Pretty sure it was a parent on Enosburg’s team that was shouting racial slurs. Other schools have dealt with it moving forward by banning all parents & bystanders from their home games.
BoringAccountName78 t1_j4p6j6a wrote
Why not just ban the one parent?
[deleted] t1_j4p6ubv wrote
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squish261 t1_j4nhc73 wrote
You know what the best thing to do would have been? BEAT THEM.
getthetime t1_j4o17ch wrote
WITH TIRE IRONS.
[deleted] t1_j4ng87g wrote
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soundsurvivor1 t1_j4ngq1j wrote
You might want to try reading the article.
CowHuman7223 t1_j4nhhuv wrote
I did. It's pathetic.
soundsurvivor1 t1_j4nieql wrote
Have you heard the saying "When you think everyone else is an asshole your usually the asshole?
SanguineRooster t1_j4nuz7n wrote
I like "when everything smells like shit, check your own shoe."
Inyabung t1_j4ofxeo wrote
What’s pathetic is chastising children online because they felt uncomfortable from bigotry
Cobdain t1_j4oiacs wrote
Stop pretending you’re as intelligent as a cow. You’re a human being, act like one
transtrailtrash t1_j4o04a9 wrote
Racism and transphobia is unfortunately all too common in “trash talk” and our schools need to be better at disciplining spectators and students who perpetuate harmful language