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walkallover1991 t1_iu43jq1 wrote

Personally, I think zone-based fare systems suck and are equally as confusing (if not more confusing) than the system we currently have now. There is a huge equity issue with them as well in that it often punishes those who take short trips across zones, but rewards those who take long trips within one zone.

Let's say all of DC was one zone. A rider could take the Red Line from Ft. Totten to Woodley Park, and just pay $2.25. A rider could also take the Green Line from Ft. Totten to West Hyattsville (just one stop), but because the trip would cross a fare zone, the rider would pay $3.25 for that trip.

I would be in favor of simplifying the current system. Perhaps calculating the trip distance solely based on a straight line distance (rather than an average between that and the actual track distance between two stations), along with eliminating the distinction between peak/off peak fares. The peak/off peak fare scheme is likely the most confusing aspect of our current fare system.

Regarding fare increases, no one wants to see them, but they are inevitable at this point with inflation. IMO it's remarkable as it is that WMATA hasn't raised fares in years. I agree that fare evasion is a problem, but fare hikes are going to occur with or without fare evasion. I just hope that by the time they do launch fare hikes, they implement a low-income fare scheme that would offset said hikes. Tying low-income fares to WIC/Medicaid/SNAP is a great idea imo.

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EverybodyBeCalm t1_iu4bk8u wrote

The problem that I see is that most commuters will just refuse to take transit if driving is cheaper. Need to get these people out of their cars already.

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Torn8oz t1_iu4ct8h wrote

And the zone system seems to punish those coming from DC from the suburbs more, which is where a lot of the traffic is already coming from and where we want to incentivize higher public transit usage

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sciencecw t1_iu5mq5n wrote

Driving is never cheaper than public transit, but the convenience and time saving is worth it for some people. The problem is how do you make public transit actually more convenient than cars.

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Dear_Art_5845 t1_iu5rei4 wrote

That is false. It costs me $10/day to go from Rockville to Cleveland park. Driving that distance does not cost $50/week, not even factoring in insurance, maintenance, and gas. I use the metro now because it’s ecologically better, not because it’s affordable. It really isn’t.

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sciencecw t1_iu5unsx wrote

How much is parking for you?

Honestly it just shows the complete breakdown of economic model if metro isn't even strictly cheaper than cars on direct trips (not to mention the huge subsidies).

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Dear_Art_5845 t1_iu5w3lm wrote

My workplace has parking. If it’s full, the zone 3 ticket would be prohibitive for sure. That brings up another factor: I have to leave before 7 AM or I’m not guaranteed to arrive on time via metro. The delays are way too unpredictable, so I need to leave time for those. Typically when I do drive it’s because I haven’t left by 7 and can’t trust I’d arrive by 8:15 due to unforeseen delays (this includes the walking parts, tbf).

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Xanny t1_iu6aep2 wrote

The US subsidizes the hell out of cars, you barely pay for the roads, gas taxes are extremely low among western nations, and annual vehicle fees are, in some states, an inspection, some a registration, etc, but they are rarely more than $50 a year per vehicle.

It also hurts that charging fares the way they do disincentivzes participation. Its harder to do, but as it is the marginal cost of adding people to most lines at most times is near zero given the train is already going to run and be maintained, and thus the added cost burden per added passenger is tiny up to capacity. IE, you want full trains, but not overcrowded trains.

Since the trains will always run, if there is a line that isn't regularly nearing capacity, then fares should be reduced to attract ridership up to that threshold. The problem is that seeing the macroeconomic effect of cheaper transit can take years or decades as areas served by cheaper fares are included to build denser and accommodate the demand for the cheaper transit. But it goes both ways - when the trains feel more expensive, slower, or less reliable than cars, people gradually stop taking the train. When they are cheaper, reliable, and fast people gradually ride the train more, and the city is built around it more. But all these effects take decades to measure.

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sciencecw t1_iu82tvw wrote

> The problem is that seeing the macroeconomic effect of cheaper transit can take years or decades as areas served by cheaper fares are included to build denser and accommodate the demand for the cheaper transit.

I'll have to nitpick to say that 1. metro didn't open in last decade, 2. passenger trends are going down, not up, so the model is going in the opposite direction you argue it would, even when there were multiple programs to lower fares in the past decade 3. demand for housing has always been there. Developers don't wait for that demand to start. I'm sure you understand the real hurdle but it should be spelt out that these are due to poor land policy. Until that is fixed, Metrorail's economic model will not be viable.

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Gitopia t1_iu7co8z wrote

Cost waaaay more than 50/wk with a car payment.

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Dear_Art_5845 t1_iu7csff wrote

Car payment is avoidable. Going to work is less avoidable.

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Gitopia t1_iu8dklz wrote

Step 1: inherit car? Did you grow your car yourself?

Just trying to understand how you eliminate the literal cost of the car from the equation. I don't have to plunk down 6-8k minimum to ride transit.

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Dear_Art_5845 t1_iu8rnv5 wrote

Not that it’s any of your business but some people save up and buy decent used cars for not a lot of money. Some people also buy used clothes and don’t have credit cards. Crazy, right? Doesn’t change that $10/day for public transit from the closest semi-affordable suburb is too high a rate for many.

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Gitopia t1_iua7gl2 wrote

You are not listening to others. If you save up and buy a car that is financial cost, and if you saved 10k for a car over three years, that's an extra $277/mo you are ignoring. It is FAR more expensive to drive than take transit. Idk how else you are going to understand that.

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Dear_Art_5845 t1_iua8co4 wrote

Well, once upon a time ten years ago I bought a car for $3k. I didn’t live here at the time, but I’m still driving the car since I moved here. Feel free to compute.

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Gitopia t1_iuaaq91 wrote

I'm not even discrediting what you have done; I did the same and am grateful I don't have to buy a used car at today's prices. But bruh, be realistic in regard to others, all I'm suggesting.

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Dear_Art_5845 t1_iuac4xs wrote

My sole point is that the metro rates are too expensive and the system is not reliable enough. My experience has shown me that it’s reasonable for many in situations like mine to choose driving due to these factors. I don’t know anyone who is going out to buy a $10k used car to avoid riding the metro. Do you?

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Torn8oz t1_iu5s536 wrote

Yeah my commute is $7.50 a day on the metro, and when I estimate how much gas if I drive to work it comes out to about $3.50 a day. So, big difference actually. I take the metro most days though since it's much less stressful

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sciencecw t1_iu5shmn wrote

I might be the only person not having a car in the city, but that must have not taken into account the cost of a car. Also is parking free for you?

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Torn8oz t1_iu5tou3 wrote

Yes, parking is free at my work. And yeah, if I had bought a car to commute to work, it would be a lot more expensive, but I've had this car for several years (fully paid off) before I moved to the area

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Not_A_Hemsworth t1_iu60xlz wrote

Don’t forget yearly maintenance, unseen maintenance, insurance. You can’t just calculate gas. That’s ridiculous.

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Torn8oz t1_iu61pkf wrote

Well, I guess my logic is that I'd own the car whether or not I drove to work. I do agree that driving to work increases maintenance costs though, but it's hard to quantify. Would my $500 dollar fix to my engine last month have been necessary if I hadn't been driving to work two days a week like I was doing? Hard to say

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Not_A_Hemsworth t1_iu62s0f wrote

Fair. I was operating under the assumption that you wouldn’t need the car. I mean 90% of trips people take in cars are to work or home from work so.

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Torn8oz t1_iu64q12 wrote

Yeah I've been really toying with the idea of getting rid of my car for your reasons haha

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Not_A_Hemsworth t1_iu6ift7 wrote

Would recommend! I got rid of mine two years ago. About 4 months before the pandemic hit. I pay $50 every 4-6 months for new tubes and tires. I’m riding a bike from 1993 that’s a fucking beast that I got on Craigslist for $100 three years back. I have a milk crate strapped to the back for carriage. When biking I notice incredible things, I feel healthy, my commute to work is half biking half metro rail. Metro is honestly the most expensive part. Wish they’d get their shit together.

Honestly. You don’t think about, but biking also saves you a lot of cash outside of the vehicle. You’re mucch Less likely to spend too much cash on eating out when you have to bike to wherever you want to eat. Gotta be conscious of how much you buy anywhere cause you gotta bike it home. Impulse buying drops significantly. At least it did for me.

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CaptainObvious110 t1_iu7ppkb wrote

Yeah, I got one bike in summer of 2020 ( when new ones that weren't expensive were scarce). And then got a folding bike a few months later.

Riding a bike has really changed my life. During the height of the Pandemic it was nice to not deal with the stress of being on a bus with crazy people. Not having to wait for the bus at all either. I just rode my bike just about wherever I wanted to go.

Then I started doing food delivery with my bike as well so being able to earn money with something I had already turned into an absolutely wonderful benefit to my life.

Think about it..buying a bicycle it's yours. There is no multi month payment on it. No insurance is necessary no gas just feed yourself and your good to go

I also love how it helps my stress levels as well. Before I had a bike I did a whole lot of walking but it makes getting groceries a lot easier as well as doing my laundry. All in all I am on my bicycle a whole lot and because I have two I can always choose which one I want to ride lol

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Not_A_Hemsworth t1_iu8ap9p wrote

That’s the life. I do want to upgrade and have a nicer newer bike and then my Beater. But we will see if that ever happens

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CaptainObvious110 t1_iu9ao5h wrote

That's cool. Just take your time and really research what's around so you can get what you really want.

Personally I would love an electric bicycle but my goodness the choices can make that a daunting task indeed.

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Dear_Art_5845 t1_iu8t0ko wrote

It’s worth noting that if one has children or elderly dependents, it’s not always an option to eliminate a multi-passenger vehicle for a variety of reasons.

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CaptainObvious110 t1_iu9bg4t wrote

DUH!!!

I'm not talking about those people.

Even when we are talking about elderly dependents you act like Metro Access doesn't exist or Uber or Lyft. It's not as if those elderly folks don't have a way to get where they are going and chances are they don't need to go there every single day either.

I would also say that it's not like those elderly folks don't have friends or other family members that can't possibly help out and take turns taking them where they need to go.

As far as children they make bicycles that can easily accommodate several children. I've seen them in DC myself and would love to see them more often.

https://yubabikes.com/carry-kiddos-as-cargo/

https://www.wired.com/gallery/best-electric-cargo-bikes/ There are ways around what may seem to be a major issue if one is willing to think outside the box.

Granted, I wouldn't recommend the bike when there is snow or ice on the ground. Having done it myself I know that really sucks.

Also, if it's raining I can see that being an issue as well mostly because people drive like retards in the rain as if they have never experienced it before.

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Dear_Art_5845 t1_iua9ole wrote

So “those people” are a lot of people, and a lot of “those people”, which clearly does not include an an ableist person such as yourself, can’t ride bikes for a range of reasons. Do they also not deserve affordable and far-reaching public transit? Isn’t that the point of this conversation? Have you ever tried to take a 12- and a 14- year old to a doctor appointment at children’s national from any other part of the city on a bike? Or on the Metro? Or walking? Do you want to tell them why they need to take the day off work because it’s gonna be a two hour trip on the bus each way? Would you like to explain to a person who makes $15/hr in that situation why the Uber they need to take from SEDC costs $25?

Widen your perspective a little, yo. Your remarks are showing your privilege.

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CaptainObvious110 t1_iuavbyq wrote

I gave you transportation options that are outside of the box that people normally think about.

If they don't fit your particular circumstance for whatever reason then they simply don't and that's just fine.

Never did I say that EVERYONE can do them. But I venture to say that MOST probably could.

I don't know I only know a few places I'll be willing at one time

Again whoever is unable to do them then they would know that my post wasn't directed at them so you coming at me with snark is completely and totally uneccesary.

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Dear_Art_5845 t1_iub7fb0 wrote

You started your post with DUH, and I matched your energy in kind. I did not describe my own circumstances, merely thought about some that do exist and are regularly ignored. I’m merely pointing out that what you think is ‘out of the box’ is actually quite narrow and excludes a lot of people.

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CaptainObvious110 t1_iubbnuc wrote

Duh because it's painfully obvious that there is no "one size fits all" as people have different circumstances.

It's not about being "ablest" either. Why do I say that? Because a number of people who I know that are elderly or disabled do the very things I mentioned. (Not bikes as they simply can't do it as much as they would like to).

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Dear_Art_5845 t1_iubzlmm wrote

The word is ableist.

My point is that you are clearly not considering the people you so obviously don't know in your nice bubble.

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CaptainObvious110 t1_iuc8ra6 wrote

False. Folks that are disabled or elderly can use Metro Access. That's what that service is for. It's not like these people are left stranded with no way to get where they need to go at all.

I mentioned that in my first message to you. But for whatever reason you missed that completely.

Anyway I'm out of troll food so take care.

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CaptainObvious110 t1_iu7os6w wrote

Maintenance costs and stress for you. Plus you still pay for insurance and gas as well.

That $500 you spent on your engine would pay for one of my bicycles or be half of what I paid for both of them. They are MINE. Now, I might have to replace an inner tube or even a tire here and there with an inner tube being less than $10.00 (I would save money if I did it myself as well).

I'm just thinking about the costs that come with a car and for ME it's just not worth it.

I'd rather contribute to gas for friends and save money for trips than to have my own car

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CaptainObvious110 t1_iu7ok4d wrote

Yeah, forget all that. I'd rather ride my bicycle. Which covers the bulk of anything I'm likely to do each week anyway.

Other than that I can ride with a friend or family member, Uber, bus or train.

I just wouldn't have much of a reason to have a car at all.

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Gitopia t1_iua7sh5 wrote

Again, you have to account for those costs, even if they are already paid. Someone with a transit card that never purchased a car never spent any of that money, ever. If they needed to drive they would, right?

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overnighttoast t1_iu4besv wrote

>Let's say all of DC was one zone. A rider could take the Red Line from Ft. Totten to Woodley Park, and just pay $2.25. A rider could also take the Green Line from Ft. Totten to West Hyattsville (just one stop), but because the trip would cross a fare zone, the rider would pay $3.25 for that trip.

Yeah, where I live, im directly between two metro stops, one in one zone and the other in a more expensive one. But the bus only goes to the stop in the more expensive zone, so even though I live in the zone that would be cheaper to travel from, it's more complicated to get to that stop and I'd pay much more for just starting one stop over.

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hbooriginalseries t1_iu53yxm wrote

Fare evasion isn’t a problem as long as driving into and around DC isn’t tolled.

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EverybodyBeCalm t1_iu56ebg wrote

Drivers are the real fare evaders.

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CaptainObvious110 t1_iu7ocdf wrote

Good point tear up the roads and don't contribute to its infrastructure costs just makes their money and go back home

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CaptainObvious110 t1_iu7o9jb wrote

I honestly don't feel that it's an issue of affordability though.

Many of the same ones I see jumping or stepping over the fare gates have on designer clothing and name brand shoes. it's not an issue of poverty it's a matter of having the wrong priorities in place.

It takes money to get those things, a lot more than what it costs to ride the bus and the train.

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