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mightyIllusion t1_j7dbrrn wrote

It's certainly indicative of the L and butterfly....

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Keyserchief t1_j7dxszn wrote

Based on r/baltimore's recommendations for local businesses to go to from this post two days ago, it sure looks like this sub concurs with these ratings.

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mightyIllusion t1_j7e00og wrote

So, this sub is overwhelmingly white and liberal.... not too much of a shock with the correlation there

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Keyserchief t1_j7fhdek wrote

I don't know that it tells us anything about the sub's politics. Based on where it tells us users live and spend their time, I'd go so far as to say most are white, but it doesn't say anything about that definitively.

I think what that map does tell us is that users overwhelmingly live and spend their time in the affluent neighborhoods in green on the Niche map. More importantly, though, consider all of the discussion in r/baltimore on the problems facing communities in the east and west of the city. I think that that map is evidence that users overwhelmingly don't visit those parts of town, most of them ever, which calls into question how useful their perspectives are.

Like, people in this thread are calling this a redlining map, and that could be very true, but have you tried mapping out where you spend your time and money? Evidently, it might look just like this.

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jayknow05 t1_j7fy09p wrote

It's pretty accurate IMO, neighborhoods across Northern Pkwy down to E 33rd are also solid, which is not part of the "L". Northwood, Perring Loch, Penn Lucy, areas around Morgan State are some examples; mostly "B's" since there aren't a ton of businesses, but affordable areas with good people.

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emersonkingsley t1_j7dbysy wrote

Pretty sure this is just a map of poverty in Baltimore. See every BNIA map, Lawrence Brown’s work, etc.

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Bmoreravens_1290 t1_j7dlv0o wrote

The Wyman Park vs Hampden cutoff is odd. #1 vs #19 and both share the same benefits. They gave Wyman Park A+ for nightlife but there aren’t any restaurants in the designated area.

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AyyScare OP t1_j7dnxub wrote

The nightlife ratings are a little odd. If I understand their scoring properly, it sounds like Wyman Park benefits from being so close to Hampden, Charles Village, Remington, and the Rotunda. Those give them a ton of restaurants, a decent number of bars, a large college/young adult population... Those all play into how that gets calculated.

Definitely right inside of the neighborhood lines though, it's a lower nightlight grade.

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HorsieJuice t1_j7efetj wrote

Wyman Park gets an A+ for nightlife but a C- for public schools despite being served predominantly by some of the best in the city? lol wut?

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AyyScare OP t1_j7fk87x wrote

I could be wrong here, but I think it gets a C- because it is only considering public schools, it doesn't take into account the Baltimore School Choice program, and I'm also not sure how it determines the school it rates the score on.

Assuming it works directionally like GreatSchools/Zillow... It will tell you schools in Wyman Park get a 6/10 for Elementary/Middle and then a 1/10 for high school. That would put you somewhere in C- territory.

So yeah. Not ideal. All of these websites would potentially scare prospects looking to move to these neighborhoods with families...

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BmoreInterested t1_j7gvkq0 wrote

Excuse me sir, but we have the RoFo on Keswick. I'll accept your apology now... Lol.

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LabKat1976 t1_j7e5fjw wrote

Middle East (renamed Eager Park in 2016-ish) resident. The A+ for nightlife means no human verified any of that. D- at best, only because the hotel bar is open on weekends. Mostly Hopkins affiliated young professionals and students. The McTownhomes by Ryan homes significantly raises the average home value. Best food is Kabobi, cheaper version of the Helmand (but not open weekends). Close proximity to Patterson Park, Butchers Hill, Fells Point - you can walk to them if you're not terrified of Baltimore city. Strongly agree with posters who mentioned redlining.

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AyyScare OP t1_j7e7tvw wrote

As I've dug more into this tonight, the nightlife ratings seem inflated nearly everywhere. Thank you for commenting and adding your input!

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AreWeCowabunga t1_j7fuz2b wrote

>The A+ for nightlife means no human verified any of that

Very obviously true. Arcadia's write-up says "lots of bars." There are two, both in restaurants, and both close early. I love my 'hood, but nightlife is not its strength.

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pbear737 t1_j7eciow wrote

I did not think the new Eager Park boundaries matched Middle East. I thought the new "CARES" had a lot of overlap with Middle East. I used to live in Middle East. Also when I lived there 3 years ago, there were not very many Hopkins affiliated folks on my block or young professionals. It was almost all older homeowners. It changed rapidly when I lived there though. It was kind of depressing. I'm sure all the new construction have young professionals who didn't mind paying a lot for a not as well constructed rowhome.

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DubyehJay t1_j7dwels wrote

Would you look at that butterfly.

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Xanny t1_j7djzio wrote

It rates Union Square lower than Mount Clare or Carrollton Ridge? And Poppleton lower than all of them?

I feel like this is just a "the higher percentage of white people gets a higher score" map.

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Main-Equipment-3207 t1_j7dpo3j wrote

I read the police reports by neighborhood from the Baltimore police department. Those neighborhood sites are not always accurate or they exaggerate making places sound like they are in a war zone when they are just middle class neighborhoods with black folks. 🙅🏽‍♀️

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YouDontKnowMyLlFE t1_j7eeeet wrote

I only use theaterm "war zone" when there's literally burned out cars on cinderblocks, derelict high rises covered in graffiti, and the businesses keep their doors locked.

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aoife_too t1_j7eey3r wrote

This makes sense! I was really confused by some of these ratings!

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jcampbellmclean t1_j7do05n wrote

This is a redlining map, repackaged as helpful trendy hints.

My neighborhood’s ranked highly on it, and it’s racist as fuck here. And the school data Niche uses is worse than pointless; it’s harmful.

Wish they’d ask people what they value and map that instead.

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Animanialmanac t1_j7dtimd wrote

I believe much of the rating is based on the personal reviews. I added a review for my neighborhood, the change showed immediately.

Did you read through the personal statements about your neighborhood? Maybe your neighbors have things they like about the area.

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AyyScare OP t1_j7dqba4 wrote

As someone who has done very little digging into the topic: Can you elaborate a little on why the school data is so bad? Are sites like GreatSchools the same way?

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jcampbellmclean t1_j7du258 wrote

Thanks for the discussion here.

I think sites like GreatSchools are just as bad & probly same data (20yrs in education, fwiw).

They usually draw on standardized tests, which are often biased. Single snapshots of a student’s correct answers reflect only a few of many cognitive skills. They also don’t reflect growth, and I’d rather put my kids in a low-score high-growth school - it means they teach better. Sadly, you could just measure whiteness & income and you’d get similar data.

Sites like these amplify the test scores as reputations, making the ratings a self-fulfilling prophecy. There are better measures of schools than tests; Baltimore City Schools makes & uses many.

Again, thanks.

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pbear737 t1_j7ecnmr wrote

Are there ways for an average person to get more info on "high growth" schools?

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wbruce098 t1_j7fmo63 wrote

This is my take but…

In my experience, talk to the teachers and school counselors. Most of my son’s teachers were more than happy to engage with me and keep me updated on his progress. He’s a middling B/C student based on test scores alone, but the feedback I got from his teachers helped us make sure he graduated and understood the concepts. Often we assume the school will do it for us, but they have many other students to account for, and metrics to focus on. I can’t afford private school, so carving out the time to make sure my kid attended, and got his assignments turned in adequately completed helped make sure he graduated and got accepted into a local college.

It wasn’t easy, and the last year of school was hella stressful for both of us for a number of reasons, but it paid off.

I don’t think most schools are “bad” per se, even in Baltimore. Some are much better than others, but most of a school experience is what the parent makes of it. Most teachers WANT their kids to learn. Our children are a long term investment in our family’s ability to grow, and reach or maintain middle class livelihoods, and support our communities.

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wbruce098 t1_j7flu8m wrote

My son attended Digital Harbor HS in Fed Hill. I found it interesting that even though the neighborhood is 75% white, the school was closer to 75% African American. It was a decent school, though not perfect, but his teachers were involved and made efforts to ensure the students remained engaged. Like my son, it appears most of that school’s students are from other parts of town.

My working theory, which this admittedly small data point supports, is that those who can afford it will either send their children to private schools or move to the suburbs once they’re able to, perhaps moving back once their children are grown. The school he attended in AACO wasn’t any better, actually, but was in a highly rated district by GreatSchools. His best educational foundation came from when we were stationed in Hawaii and he attended local schools, which were also rated by GS as about the same as most of Baltimore’s.

Here’s the thing: good schooling is a combination of the school’s resources, the teachers’ abilities, and most importantly, parental involvement. If their parents aren’t involved, the kid is less likely to be engaged and will learn nothing even if they graduate from an Ivy League school. See our last president for example.

One problem in Hawaii, which I suspect Baltimore may also have, is a feeling by many that education was less important than getting a job to support one’s own less affluent family; after all, it was very difficult to rise into the middle class there without connections or money. So why bother when putting food on the table today is most important?

I’m fortunate that my son didn’t have to work while he was in high school and I even had him quit his job when it began to affect his grades and attendance, but not every family has this luxury.

So I think part of the solution for Baltimore is, how can we stress the importance of education to our own residents, and get the community involved in its own education? How can we incentivize higher performance in school as a long term investment in our own children? For some, that may require better government efforts at eliminating poverty and supporting struggling middle class families.

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rooranger t1_j7e4ayz wrote

Spot on. The city suffers greatly from poverty and racism. This map, lines, and the message between the lines reinforce that.

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DfcukinLite t1_j7enpsw wrote

The city doesn’t suffer from poverty. People in poverty suffer but Baltimore median income is higher than the national average and poverty rate is better than cities bigger than Baltimore like Philly.

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AyyScare OP t1_j7dddzr wrote

For those unfamiliar with Niche, I will link the overall Baltimore page below. If you scroll down half way, you will find the neighborhood map I posted and you can look at the profiles for each neighborhood if you wanted more details vs just the image.

https://www.niche.com/places-to-live/baltimore-md/

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Animanialmanac t1_j7dt9mv wrote

Thank you this was helpful. I didn’t know this site before, it has interesting reviews of the city neighborhoods.

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shaneknu t1_j7ebmb9 wrote

It feels really weird to "rate" a neighborhood. It's the same weird feeling when Google Maps asks me to rate a park.

If there are actual problems to be identified, maybe we can work on those, instead of treating them like they've served soggy french fries, and the waiter was rude. Sorry you were disappointed that a neighborhood that was literally where redlining was invented hasn't met your standard of compelling nightlife.

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SnooRevelations979 t1_j7ft7ae wrote

You can rate a screw on Amazon.

When thinking of screws, what would differentiate a five-star screw from a four-star screw? Whether your hair was pulled or not?

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jDetty_ t1_j7dgilm wrote

My neighborhood is number 2, wooh

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AyyScare OP t1_j7dj90q wrote

As someone who has not spent time in the Butcher's Hill neighborhood specifically but I've been to surrounding areas, are there certain things worth specifically going to the neighborhood to check out? Are you surprised with the #2 ranking?

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jDetty_ t1_j7e7x92 wrote

Nah, just friendly neighbors, pretty row homes, close to Patterson Park/Fells Point/Highlandtown/Canton.

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worm_odyssey t1_j7dgsa3 wrote

What's the story with how the city became so divided along York/Greenmount? I'd love to read the history behind that.

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Longey13 t1_j7dhj2t wrote

Buy or pick up "The Black Butterfly" by Dr. Lawrence Brown.

Long story short, redlining and racism.

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worm_odyssey t1_j7di1jl wrote

I'll check it out!

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midwestUCgal t1_j7dneff wrote

If you want a real deep dive, I highly recommend Not in My Neighborhood (Baltimore specific) and The Color of Law (broadly about the US history of racial covenants and residential segregation)

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Tim_Y t1_j7e1usp wrote

> What's the story with how the city became so divided along York/Greenmount?

I can tell you of a similar situatuon not far from York/Greenmount.

When Original Northwood and Ednor Gardens were being developed, the homes on the west side of Loch Raven south of Argonne were larger detached single family homes, and that was going to be the plan for the surrounding area. However the developer on the east side of Loch Raven in Hillen planned to build rowhouses. This caused a stir with the plans for northwood who didn't want rowhouses to be built there, but they came up with a comprimise so all the homes that are on the east side of Loch Raven are detached, but only the ones directly on Loch Raven, while the rest - on Argonne, Ralworth, Shadyside, Roundhill, etc are rowhouses.

I would imagine something similar happened to the eastern border of Guilford and so they built the giant wall rather than have to have a view of the rowhouses to the east.

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megalomike t1_j7f7325 wrote

Before the fair housing act it was legal to discriminate by race in real estate.

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amberthemaker t1_j7dwfp7 wrote

I grew up in Brooklyn and was surprised to find out that 103 people live in the Fairfield Area. I thought it was a completely industrial area.

Edit: nobody has lived in Fairfield since 2011.

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edgar__allan__bro t1_j7ebmsy wrote

I’m just here to say that Mt Vernon and Mid-Town Belvedere are the same thing and I won’t accept any opinion to the contrary.

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waverlygiant t1_j7dz56t wrote

How is Waltherson ranked lower than Harwood? I moved here from Harwood, it was not great, someone literally got shot in front of my old house. Waltherson’s quiet, lots of homeownership, diverse.

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megalomike t1_j7f7ski wrote

Its a massive simplification to just call this a redlining map. When baltimore was redlined lower park heights had a higher score than federal hill and canton. Redlining was mostly about how small the houses were.

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SpaghettiOsPolicy t1_j7fswsg wrote

I like my yellow neighborhood. There are times I'd prefer some of the green places, but most of them are too expensive for me.

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PigtownFoo t1_j7fz648 wrote

With the way this sub feels about Pigtown, some shades of green are still not the right kind of green in reality

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SeaworthinessFit2151 t1_j7dvuqx wrote

I live in “downtown west” and just got a knife pulled on me today trying to re board up a vacant house next door to mind that almost burned down Friday (that no city org is helping with) you can fucking flush these statistics. No not agree.

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dano2990 t1_j7ddrpx wrote

Weird that “Park Heights” is literally the only neighborhood within Baltimore that specifically called out. Is that a location OP looked at and it’s just still on the map?

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AyyScare OP t1_j7de0cn wrote

I think that's just the default that the map shows at that zoom level... I linked the link in another comment if you wanted to see more details or see if you get the same result.

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PVinesGIS t1_j7dgsyp wrote

The Park Heights label is likely just part of what is called a “basemap” layer, that the geospatial data is then displayed on top of.

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Animanialmanac t1_j7dpblp wrote

This is interesting thank you for posting. I didn’t know about this site before. I looked at the city ratings and drilled down to the neighborhood ratings. The neighborhood ratings have personal comments from people who live and work there. My neighborhood Saint Agnes only had one rating, the comment was accurate, I would have given more than one star. The ratings and comments for the surrounding neighborhoods are accurate based on my experience.

This is good tool for people moving into the city or moving from one neighborhood to another. It’s also a good tool to see how neighborhoods changed, the larger neighborhood next to me Violetville went from five stars mentioning the good school, park and friendly neighbors to one star mentioning blight and how the local wellness group is similar to a HOA. Good reading, I also notice they include reviews of the local schools, the details are interesting.

I also agree this clearly shows the white L areas on green, while the surrounding areas are not as green, the areas of Carrollton Ridge, Sandtowne, and maybe Harlem Park are red, my experience is those are tougher areas.

Thank you for posting, very good information.

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SpaghettiOsPolicy t1_j7fw9ev wrote

Violetville should be rated higher, it's a great neighborhood. The only thing we're missing are more walkable restaurants, stores, etc. I'm surprised Morrell Park is rated higher.

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Kaffikup t1_j7dy1jc wrote

what do people think of ashburton? really close to hampden actually but rated super low even though its a very beautiful neighborhood

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StinkRod t1_j7fdpgi wrote

It's "really close" to Hampden in some kind of global sense, but it's not really close like you're walking to Golden West on Wednesday at 6 PM to get a burrito (even though you could).

That said, I like that area from Druid Hill going west. I don't know the neighborhood boundaries perfectly, but those places on Hilton along the lake are awesome. Seems like you could walk to the Shoprite or Druid Hill, which is nice and you have the other park/lake right there.

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Kaffikup t1_j7gnsp4 wrote

the northern neighborhoods are definitely rough but there is so much to like in that area

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AyyScare OP t1_j7foarr wrote

As another commenter said, calling it really close to Hampden is a stretch. Baltimore is a city where walking a few blocks can put you into a much different area. Ashburton is a solid 10 minute drive or hour walk from Hampden.

Ashburton itself is pretty nice. The homes are nice, neighborhood is kept up, and I would feel safe in the direct neighborhood. Hanlon park has been getting renovated. Commuting to key parts of the city/county is easy from there.

The concern is the surrounding areas. Ashburton is only a few blocks tall/wide. Once you go out of those blocks, things can change pretty quickly. The area north is more concerning. I know people who used to work at Hilton Elementary (directly south of Ashburton), and they had overall positive things to say.

IMO: The Niche scores for a neighborhood like Ashburton are worse than I would personally expect based on my personal experience.

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Kaffikup t1_j7gm9bb wrote

tats a fair point. im coming from texas so a 10 minute drive is like right next door. Just seems like once you get on Druid Park Dr you are super close to hampden I guess parking would be the major issue.

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harfordplanning t1_j7fpu76 wrote

I saw how they got this in the comments, but I'd say eastern Baltimore should be at lest a little greener. I've personally not been to western Balitmore much.

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moderndukes t1_j7g0yrg wrote

Pigtown having A+ nightlife on 8 reviews is kinda hilarious to me

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dnellifrombft t1_j7hd2ow wrote

I lived in Carroll- South Hilton and never ran into any issues. Most folks on my block were average working citizens. Not sure what the Niche rating is but I'm sure it's not in green lol

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Akizora1 t1_j7ib2xz wrote

This website is just a shitty vehicle for cramming private school ads down your throat.

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eyeofthebesmircher t1_j7ohwwt wrote

we need to stop white flight and stop fearing the black butterfly

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fatchan t1_ja8vk3v wrote

I'm buying a house on the western edge of madison park...I believe there was a homicide right behind the house (you can see the crime tape on google maps) Clearly I don't invest too much in niche data...

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