Submitted by Jezebels_lipstick t3_10my96a in boston
EducationalElevator t1_j66apjc wrote
Am I cold, or are the social media posts going around about this story unnervingly sympathetic to her? Yes, postpartum psychosis is terrible. But she can simultaneously be a sick person who is also a killer.
NEDsaidIt t1_j66ghwn wrote
She was mentally unstable AND seeking treatment. I think that’s the difference. She was heavily involved in treatment and was not to be left alone with the children. WHY would you leave her alone with the children? I think that’s why it’s awful all around. She wasn’t in her right mind and likely will be one day.
amos106 t1_j68tc6m wrote
Our healthcare system is breaking due to staffing shortages and that includes mental health. It's unfortunate but seeking out mental health doesn't necessarily mean you are getting all if the support needed to make a full recovery. That leaves an incredibly heavy burden on the family of the afflicted person. Life doesn't just pause until you can sort things out, chores need to be done, bills need to be paid, etc. And to top that all off your partner is unable to contribute and instead needs extra care. Caretaker fatigue is a real thing and it's not anyone's else place to cast judgement because until you've been in those shoes you can't understand how conflicting and dehumanizing it feels.
NEDsaidIt t1_j68v4wf wrote
I just can’t see going out for pizza and not taking the kids. Either way I’m not blaming him, I’m just explaining why people aren’t labeling her a horrible monster the way others get labeled. She did what you are supposed to do. Seek help. Follow the plan.
amos106 t1_j6900zs wrote
Life can just be fucked up, that's all. Seeking out someone to blame is just a coping mechanism so we can sleep at night under the assumption that if you do the "right" thing then things will work out. Arthur DaRosa tried to do the right thing, the day before the stabbings he attempted to have himself held at the local hospital for a mental health crisis. The system that is supposed to help people out of mental health crises examined him and told him to go home. He wasn't a pretty white woman so people were much more reluctant to treat him as a victim, but he did what he was supposed to do and our system's response was telling him to pound sand. She was doing the right thing and trying to work with the same system. It's obvious that it didn't work and now a lot of people got hurt for it. I'm just saying if people want to direct their frustration and anger into something productive it's time we start figuring out why the system isn't working.
NEDsaidIt t1_j690j5l wrote
I’m not blaming him, I have said that repeatedly. I’m responding to a comment about why people aren’t as angry or cold with her. The entire system broke down. I’m sure she had part of her plan of what to do when she felt this way, yet she didn’t do it. He didn’t follow the plan. And they obviously shouldn’t have let her be at home this unstable. So many breakdowns and now 3 innocents are gone.
CaptainWollaston t1_j69ngz8 wrote
"I can't see going out for pizza and not taking the kids" is absolutely blaming him.
NEDsaidIt t1_j6e27fy wrote
I’m questioning a decision. I’m also questioning the medical professionals who let her be home. When there is a tragedy we need to look at where the breakdown was. Was he not being supported enough? Did he feel he needed a break? If I wanted to blame him I would have said “he should not have left her with the kids to get pizza”. I know it’s hard to understand meaning in text. I used to write care plans and I’m analyzing more than maybe someone else. I just don’t want this to ever happen again so I look at where did this go wrong.
[deleted] t1_j695lix wrote
The problem is not that her husband left her alone to get food. The problem is the level of care she was receiving. She should have been admitted to an inpatient hospital, not a 5-day a week day program.
NEDsaidIt t1_j6e6naj wrote
Totally agree
CaptainWollaston t1_j69mpxy wrote
If she was that dangerous to not be left alone with kids she should have been locked up. Fuck that.
Trpdoc t1_j67rtt2 wrote
Can be super tough to bell like not step out for a few minutes maybe grocery running low, maybe it’s a quick work call etc who knows. Always easier for people without kids to be like why they leave her alone!
NEDsaidIt t1_j68ux23 wrote
If you need groceries, take the kids. We have paid family leave, take it! I have 3 kids and I’m disabled and have literally faced this exact scenario where I couldn’t be left alone with my own kids because I was too sick. I wasn’t a danger in the same way I just couldn’t care for them. It’s extremely hard. But it’s not impossible. In this scenario there is no way I would have gone out for pizza like he did. And no way my husband would have. I’m not blaming him, he will live with the guilt forever- but I think this is where the empathy comes from. She was doing what we expect people to do- seek help and follow the plan. What else could she do?
Trpdoc t1_j6997l0 wrote
So when does that period of unsafe end? And what are you on about paid family leave for 8 months lol.
NEDsaidIt t1_j69ddw5 wrote
When a doctor says she is safe. I’m sure they had childcare because she was working at some points so you wouldn’t need full time leave.
Trpdoc t1_j69hed5 wrote
Doctor doesn’t know for sure either
CaptainWollaston t1_j6hsp0l wrote
So the husband job now is to protect the kids from his wife? If that's the case she should have been locked up. You really seem to be putting this on him, and it's not. She did the evil thing, not him. I'm sure he's going to think about it the rest of his life, but there's really nothing he could have done to prevent it. Is he supposed to lock her in her room while he takes a shower? Make her come into the bathroom and sit there when he takes a shit?
directtodvd420 t1_j6fsb8c wrote
PFML gives a max 26 weeks per year. That’s 6.5 months. Baby was 8 months old. Even if this family did qualify for and take the max, which is unlikely, that’s 1.5 months of unassisted anguish.
Bouix t1_j66zpud wrote
Yeah I just don't think so. To me it's clear something very seriously went wrong with her mental state. PPD is very real and sometimes cases can be THIS extreme.
I don't think "sympathetic" is what people feel. More like they feel sorrow rather than anger.
It's a horrible tragedy all around...
StaticMaine t1_j66tm5k wrote
The reason im sympathetic to a degree is that PPD is seriously awful and to be at the level psychosis has to be the absolute worst. She was already getting treatment and by all accounts was not an issue at any point in her life.
I can’t imagine someone who by all accounts was a good mother snapping out of this and realizing they killed their children. That’s where my sympathy lies - when she ultimately ends up getting the help.
She deserves to be punished, don’t get me wrong - I just can’t imagine what she will feel when she is fully with it.
Roszo21 t1_j695f1q wrote
I'm comfortable with using the word sympathy. It's what I feel for everyone involved. Reading about PPD psychosis, including first-hand accounts from survivors, knowing that she actively sought treatment. It's far more common than I ever knew and far less researched and talked about than it should be because medical misogyny is real. And 5% of mothers with postpartum psychosis kill themselves or their child. We know how dangerous this condition is. But because it's poorly researched, little is known about what is actually effective treatment. Electro shock therapy is a commonly recommended despite seriously side effects like memory loss.
This is a major issue with our judicial/incarceration system. This isn't a unique story; I remember reading about the mentally ill unhoused man who pushed someone into thw train; he'd been in and out of treatment for years. Your brain can be broken. And unlike other health issues, when our medical system failures to treat you effectively - even if you beg for treatment - you are a criminal and the consequences for your community are unrecoverable. We need massive investment in mental health care and treatment facilities. I'm angry that every public official isn't demanding it.
zumera t1_j66miuv wrote
Your last two sentences don’t make sense. If she was suffering from postpartum psychosis then it was likely the psychosis that made her kill her own children and try to take her own life. These are not separate facts, they are one and the same. Postpartum psychosis hijacks your brain.
caesarbear t1_j68e03c wrote
"psychosis hijacks your brain"
It alters your perceptions, it does not alter who you are. Even in the depths of psychosis a person is still aware of themselves. Destruction, self harm, lashing out are all understandable from someone at their most desperate and confused. But child murderers are just child murderers.
DRZ36 t1_j66ffoy wrote
It feels like people are either: (1) this poor mom - she had her life ruined by PPD or (2) there are no excuses, she’s a killer. Almost no one commenting here knows the extent of her PPD (although from rumors, it was pretty severe), who she was before PPD, the full backstory about how this played out or why this happened. It’s good to see people being aware of PPD, but blindly calling her a victim isn’t really a terribly bright take either.
I just know the kids were innocent here and what happened to them is awful. I feel like it’s really sad that everyone seems drawn to this story to give their uneducated take on the mom and what her fault is. I just feel for the kids who lives were needlessly taken
Feisty-Donkey t1_j66hvv5 wrote
I think the point about not much being known is very appropriate, though that will change as information comes out at trial, because this absolutely will be an obsessively documented trial.
I think some of it is that people have no idea how to react to something this horrible and need to find something easy or comfortable to label it with. We’ll learn more with time.
I was young so I only vaguely remember contemporaneous coverage of Andrea Yates but I remember her being treated as a monster. Then, when I read the case details years later, it seemed very clear that her husband’s religious beliefs were a huge factor in what happened to her children and now I feel nothing but pity for her.
teriyakichicken t1_j66mu6d wrote
This story horrifies me and makes me wonder “could that have been me”? That’s obviously an extreme - but I feel like it could happen to anyone under the right circumstances. I have sympathy for the Mom (because I can’t imagine any Mom that would do this in a “sane” state of mind) but also feel extreme sadness for the kids and Father. PPP can come on suddenly and with almost no obvious warning signs. Take a look at Carol Coronado’s case. As a new Mom this story sparked a new and irrational fear in me.
Mysterious-Oil-7219 t1_j6l04h0 wrote
It could have been any mother who doesn’t have a support system
chickadeedadee2185 t1_j67cs4d wrote
Maybe, people are focusing on the other because their minds cannot handle the horror.
[deleted] t1_j66lekv wrote
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and_dont_blink t1_j67lkm4 wrote
>Am I cold, or are the social media posts going around about this story unnervingly sympathetic to her? Yes, postpartum psychosis is terrible.
You're being cold, though admittedly I've seen severe PPD up close (but not pp psychosis) and a psychotic break of an acquaintance completely out of the blue that ended with them stopping their car and trying to break into the nearest home. With a lot of illnesses, how you react to it can be influenced by how much exposure you have to it in general.
Everyone likely knows someone who has had kids and struggled mentally with some form of PPD, they likely know someone who has struggled severely though not to this degree (post partum psychosis is very rare). It isn't someone with severe mental issues having children, it isn't someone developing them and it being clear what should be done -- it's people imagining they have a kid and it happens to them because it really can happen to anyone.
Who do you get angry at here? It's hard to be angry at the mother, she threw herself out a window and if she's able to become lucid her life is a horror film now that no one would wish on them. She was seeking treatment. The father, who called it in? Perhaps he was irresponsible, or maybe he had to pee for a moment and no one knew how severe things were -- either way his life is a nightmare and we just don't know. Perhaps the treatment professionals, but this is rare and these things can take a sharp left turn quickly -- you're often looking at involuntary hospitalizations that can be difficult. What you're left with is tragedy, and a "therebut for the grace of god go I."
If more info come out and there was severe negligence that'll be another story, but right now based on what we know who do we get angry at?
>But she can simultaneously be a sick person who is also a killer.
That doesn't really track, we aren't talking about anti-social personality disorder, we're talking about postpartum/perpetual/postnatal psychosis. Maybe you are confusing psychosis and psychopathy?
This is psychosis, and hence aren't viewing reality like we are, and aren't really "them." Their judgement is impaired, and it often combines hallucinations and false beliefs/delusions -- the entire idea of psychosis is you aren't experiencing reality properly. It isn't really them.
EducationalElevator t1_j68cpjn wrote
I don't really follow your last point. Because it was psychosis and not psychopathy, that makes her less of a murderer? I just get the sense that if this wasn't a wealthy white family there wouldn't be as many heart emojis floating around the internet for someone who violently murdered three babies.
and_dont_blink t1_j68egbs wrote
>I don't really follow your last point. Because it was psychosis and not psychopathy, that makes her less of a murderer?
It was a response to the comment that someone can be sick but still a killer. That person isn't that person, they're the illness -- and post partum psychosis is usually treatable and not permanent. It's akin to blaming you for a dream you had.
>I just get the sense that if this wasn't a wealthy white family there wouldn't be as many heart emojis floating around the internet for someone who violently murdered three babies.
That sounds like you are projecting your own baggage onto the situation? I can't speak to the heart emojis you are seeing somewhere, but when these cases come up (and if you search you'll find them) the response is generally shock and that it's a horrible tragedy.
You see the exact opposite for something like Munchausen by proxy cases, or the rare cases where a mother actually is a killer and something happens to a child so she can be with another man etc.
[deleted] t1_j6cv633 wrote
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EducationalElevator t1_j6cyb54 wrote
Forgive me for not using the correct legal terminology. It would be slaughter, no?
[deleted] t1_j6d5oqx wrote
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[deleted] t1_j66bjyc wrote
You don’t see this level of sympathy when your run of the mill homeless mentally ill person kills someone.
zumera t1_j66mwxz wrote
But you should. And frankly, this is part of the problem with the version of “destigmatization” that’s currently popular where everyone pretends that mental illness couldn’t possibly make people do things that they would never do if they were well.
Visible-Education-98 t1_j66rd97 wrote
Not even homeless, just not living in the right town is enough for you to not get sympathy for being mentally ill.
directtodvd420 t1_j66yxb4 wrote
Seriously. This Duxbury mom is getting lots of grace that say a Taunton mom wouldn’t.
Alive-Sea-7078 t1_j6frg0l wrote
Right? Or a single mom..
LadyGreyIcedTea t1_j6g49rk wrote
If this case had been a single black mother from Dorchester as opposed to a married white woman from Deluxebury there would be none of this sympathy and immediate assumption of PP psychosis.
[deleted] t1_j66riow wrote
Agreed
Present-Structure-98 t1_j6fx2bp wrote
I find it hard to have sympathy for someone that just killed her own children PPD or no PPD.
Witty-Milk-5924 t1_j66bswg wrote
Yeah I mean there is a discussion to be had about how society truly doesn’t not care about there after effects of pregnancy and mental illnesses that can come out of it nor proving the necessary care, like all that is valid but it’s very disturbing how I have yet to see a post that sympathizes with the two fucking children dead, the baby who will be traumatized for the rest of their life and the husband who now has to live with the reality of two children dead and a baby holding to dear life and the murderer being his wife who will never see the outside world. I personally am always gonna have more sympathy for the kids.
[deleted] t1_j66codb wrote
Me too. I truly do not understand how the kids were allowed to stay in the home with an actively psychotic person. ETA: you can believe if this wasn’t a well to do family in duxbury and there was a psychotic parent in dorchester these kids would have been removed
TalentedCilantro12 t1_j66l6n5 wrote
I do agree there should be more attention to mentally ill individuals who commit murders, pregnant or not. BUT it does take a lot to remove a kid from the household whether they are from Dorchester or anywhere else.
[deleted] t1_j66mu8j wrote
I understand. But when children are at risk of being killed and there is not a dedicated 24/7 shift worker keeping eyes on the psychotic person, how did anyone think it was ok for the kids to stay there? The father was working from home, taking care of the kids and managing a psychotic person by himself? That is unmanageable for one person
TalentedCilantro12 t1_j66neg6 wrote
You are right but doing something like that is very hard to do in the community. Hopefully the mental health providers watched her carefully and if she had any sort of statements implying suicidal/homicidal thoughts they would have her in a facility with 24/7 monitoring.
[deleted] t1_j66n2l2 wrote
And I don’t necessarily mean that DCF needed to get involved but maybe have family members take the kids until it was safe?
TalentedCilantro12 t1_j66nkwi wrote
That's actually pretty much the standard for kids who are abused, etc. I just hope the place she was attending for care made suggestions to not leave her alone, etc and hopefully family or friends could have stepped up to help (if husband told them about it)
[deleted] t1_j66cvdj wrote
I really hate to tell you that the baby has also died. These innocent kids are the real victims. They did not have the ability to get up and leave. They were at the mercy of their parents
Witty-Milk-5924 t1_j66unqc wrote
Fuck 3/3? That is horrific.
Visible-Education-98 t1_j66qou1 wrote
I honestly cannot judge her, however, ALL of my sympathy is for her husband….oh my GOD….that poor guy.💔
SnarkyChief t1_j69rp8o wrote
You are being cold. Full stop. I'm in genuine disbelief that you got gold for this comment.
AliceP00per t1_j69b7aq wrote
Yeah no one was sympathetic to that woman from brockton who killed her kids last year in some voodoo spell thing
PresentScientist4278 t1_j67139j wrote
The sudden sympathy for a killer of children—her own children—is something that struck me too. It says a lot about society’s views towards race, class, and gender. If she was anything but a white woman from Deluxebury, people would be treating this a lot differently. Anyone who kills children is clearly mentally sick, but when it’s anyone else we don’t parse out diagnoses, we just call it f’ed in the head and they’re a monster undeserving of any modicum of compassion.
joearchang t1_j679hn1 wrote
I think we all try to make sense of this horrific thing. Intelligent people want to know what would drive someone to do the unimaginable. It’s mental health issues. So it becomes human to everyone. The same mental health issues could be attributed to most violent behaviors. We draw a line in our mind between something being justified and unjustified. The line gets blurred when the evil doer is a cute girl that doesn’t look like she would hurt a fly. Sad
Full_Alarm1 t1_j6cx1yz wrote
Respectfully, there are very few women who kill their children who are in active treatment for post partum mental health issues. I would challeneg you to find another story like this. That’s a big part of the sympathy- that we as a society dont give enough attention to pp mh, and that even when a woman did give it attention, this happened.
You can blame all the other factors class/race/gender- they are clearly relevant. The idea of someone being aware of, and taking advantage of, help in this situation, and then tragically having the worst outcome is part of what makes so many people have sympathy. Among the other reasons you’ve mentioned
LadyGreyIcedTea t1_j6g4sb2 wrote
To be fair, who has an easier time accessing mental health treatment? An affluent woman who in all likelihood has private health insurance and a husband who is able to work from home while she seeks treatment or a woman of lower socioeconomic means who is on MassHealth and who doesn't have family support?
[deleted] t1_j6g9yr4 wrote
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EducationalElevator t1_j6baru0 wrote
Agree with you 100% and I'm getting down voted to oblivion for suggesting race or class has anything to do with the odd reaction to this tragedy from the Instagram Mamas
[deleted] t1_j66f8so wrote
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Trpdoc t1_j67rbk3 wrote
She’s white duh
shitz_brickz t1_j69ehdp wrote
Ya like I get that PPD is real and is diagnosed and all that.
But if this was a guy or a minority they would be considered a monster and no sickness would excuse killing your children.
Jezebels_lipstick OP t1_j6a0ujn wrote
About 10 years ago, a woman around the corner from me killed her toddler & stabbed her unborn baby. Like stabbed herself in her pregnant belly. Her husband was just gone for 20 mins to pick up their Chinese takeout & came home to that.
Etek1492 t1_j69mly8 wrote
Nah, it's not you. I've been dancing around Twitter making the wine moms choke down their fucking hypocrisy.
Is this a tragedy all around? Of course it is, but search by "Duxbury" and count how many of these Ukrainian Flag sporting emoji dimwits are expressing support for the killer and completely not mentioning the three children who were fucking strangled to death.
[deleted] t1_j673e7d wrote
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occasional_cynic t1_j6825cg wrote
My wife is a professional therapist and what's out there on the background of the story she says is full of holes.
rayvin4000 t1_j66bev0 wrote
I don't know anything about postpartum depression but I know my mom had it and did not kill me. So I honestly don't know. Other people say it's unbelievable what it can do to you.
Edit: I'm legit wondering why I am so heavily down voted. I am legitimately asking a question I know nothing about.
Feisty-Donkey t1_j66cof4 wrote
Postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis are different illnesses. This is a tragedy on the level of the Andrea Yates story which is very similar, right down to medical personnel making it very clear that the mother was too mentally unstable to be left alone with the children.
[deleted] t1_j66cgp4 wrote
It is a form of psychosis which is what schizophrenia is. It is a break from reality with auditory or visual hallucinations. Psychosis is psychosis. Post partum psychosis refers to psychosis occurring after giving birth.
rayvin4000 t1_j66cnlc wrote
I see. So ppd is way different than psychosis.
[deleted] t1_j66dnvu wrote
No. It is the same psychosis ETA: PPD is psychosis that develops after birth. But psychosis is psychosis. It isn’t a different kind of psychosis. It is usually temporary and will resolve unlike schizophrenia in which suffers have psychosis and hallucinations but that illness is lifelong
Feisty-Donkey t1_j66e39e wrote
Her comment was correct. PPD= Postpartum Depression.
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