Lucid108 t1_ixrb9gp wrote
Reply to comment by c3p-bro in What to Know Now That the N.Y.P.D. Is on Amazon’s Neighborhood Watch App by k1lk1
Less that and "put the resources into solving crime at the root, as opposed to giving everything to cops and expecting things will be any different."
drpvn t1_ixrbx7n wrote
NYC spends a lot on police, but I don’t think 10% is the budget is unreasonable, and it’s certainly not “everything.”
Lucid108 t1_ixredgz wrote
Given how many other necessary public services are gutted as cops get near-constant increases to their budget, it seems to me that we are not allocating the resources into preventing crime, so much as creating it via societal negligence and then throwing cops at the problem.
drpvn t1_ixrepa9 wrote
If you want to see near-constant increases, look at the education budget. It is almost 40% of the entire budget.
Lucid108 t1_ixrhltt wrote
Education is among the most consistently underfunded social services. Teachers are certainly not nearly as well-paid/well-compensated as cops and they serve a variety of critically necessary roles.
drpvn t1_ixrhqjw wrote
The education budget is $38 billion this year. It’s not underfunded.
Koboldsftw t1_ixsjeog wrote
What part of the city budget do you think we should use to fund schools instead?
drpvn t1_ixslalb wrote
There’s no magic number but there is no way that ~$35 billion is “underfunding.” People talk about it as if it’s draconian austerity. That’s ridiculous.
Koboldsftw t1_ixsll3e wrote
Do you know how many students there are in New York City? It’s like super easy for $35 billion to be underfunding.
drpvn t1_ixt82cz wrote
Yes, approximately a million if you include charter school students (which you should because charter school costs are included). So that’s approximately $35,000 per student. If that’s under-funding, I’d like to know how much is enough. $100,000 per student?
c3p-bro t1_ixrbuk2 wrote
Remind me the profession of the guy who got beat to death
Lucid108 t1_ixrdelo wrote
That has nothing to do with getting to the root of the problem of crime. You don't deal with a weed by chopping up the leaves, you deal with it by the root. Same thing with criminality. Cops get billions of dollars of taxpayer money every year, with the budget ballooning for them all the time, while other necessary services which would prevent crime entirely are severely underfunded, at best (bc as it turns out most people don't do crime for fun, but out of desperation).
It's a tragedy when people are killed, but adding more cops does not solve the underlying problems even a little and worthwhile to stop pretending otherwise.
drpvn t1_ixre1y7 wrote
It’s a sad thing but some people are effectively bad down to their roots.
Lucid108 t1_ixrjzhx wrote
Respectfully, I think that essentializing people to "bad down to their roots" a cop-out to avoid having to ask the questions that it would take to legitimately address questions concerning justice and the treatment of criminals in general (even down to the non-violent offenders bc lets be honest when ppl think criminal, they think the "bad to the root" kind of person).
Like, I'm not about to say that people aren't capable of brutal and heinous things, given the wrong situation, I'm sure everyone can be. That said, basing foundational building blocks of our society on just punishing the worst people we can think of leaves the imagination blank for providing help for victims and, again, just preventing these tragedies from occurring in the first place. When all you have is a hammer (cops and prisons) every problem looks like a nail (criminal).
drpvn t1_ixrlmz5 wrote
Cops and prisons are not all we have and have never been all we have.
Thinking you’re going to eradicate crime by any means—whether by aggressive policing or by “addressing root causes”—is as foolish as thinking you’re going to eradicate any social problem. There has always been crime and there will always be crime. We have to manage it as best we can by using all society’s tools, which include policing, to strike the best balance we can.
thisisntmineIfoundit t1_ixrfjux wrote
Has it occurred to you that when a young man or woman are being encouraged to contribute to a crime (shoplifting / raiding a store) or joining a gang, you know, before they have ever committed a crime aka the "root", if the message is "you will be caught and go to jail" and not "people don't care, won't report the crime, and the cops won't arrest you and the judge won't prosecute" that mayyyyybe that could be, oh I don't know, discouraging people to ever get into that kind of crowd???
Or are you one of those insisting folks raiding Rite Aid need bread for their family?
Lucid108 t1_ixrhbgp wrote
>Has it occurred to you that when a young man or woman are being encouraged to contribute to a crime (shoplifting / raiding a store) or joining a gang, you know, before they have ever committed a crime aka the "root", if the message is "you will be caught and go to jail" and not "people don't care, won't report the crime, and the cops won't arrest you and the judge won't prosecute" that mayyyyybe that could be, oh I don't know, discouraging people to ever get into that kind of crowd???
This looks to me like a very good example of circular logic. This isn't hard. If people are committing crimes, it's literally scientifically supported, that they do so due to lack of resources/legitimate avenues to meet their needs. Take care of people's most basic needs and you'd see a huge reduction in crime, abuse victims could leave abusers safely, etc. etc. Just having the looming threat of prison hasn't solved crime in the several hundred years we've been doing it, what makes you think it'll magically work with a few extra billion dollars?
drpvn t1_ixrmpv6 wrote
TIL that “it’s literally scientifically supported” that rapists rape “due to lack of resources/legitimate avenues to meet their needs.”
Lucid108 t1_ixrpdam wrote
Your glibness aside, rape is absolutely about power and is usually perpetrated against people who do not have the necessary support structures to leave the situation. Speaking of which, you ever look up the stats on how many sex crimes cops have solved and how often people who go to them for protection against these sorts of things are dismissed by the people who are supposedly there to protect and serve? How 'bout that 40% statistic about cops, since we're on the subject?
drpvn t1_ixrr27g wrote
Trying to give women support structures to help them leave violent relationships is good but it will not eradicate rape.
No I haven’t looked into the “40%” thing. I do know it’s copypasta so I assume there are massive caveats that need to be added to it.
NashvilleHot t1_ixsi6ju wrote
You just posted up thread about striking a balance as best we can. And here you’re saying it’s good but not worth doing because it won’t eradicate rape. 🤷♂️
drpvn t1_ixsljet wrote
You’re misreading me. I’m saying nothing can eradicate crime. That’s why we need policing. To deal with, you know, rapists, for example.
[deleted] t1_iy68ir2 wrote
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utamog t1_ixxct7d wrote
Crime apologists like you are literally what made me switch to being a republicans (Still voted Adams however). I believe in body autonomy, and separation of church and state but this violence apologist shit is by far the most deranged danger to society I can think of.
Lucid108 t1_iy5suqb wrote
If you're gonna make an example out of me, at least try to understand my point.
thisisntmineIfoundit t1_ixroww9 wrote
>Take care of people's most basic needs and you'd see a huge reduction in crime
This looks to me like a very good example of logic from someone who does not live in the real world.
We have a huge safety net and it's getting bigger. It would take too long to explain how bloated and unaudited our social benefit systems are and list the examples of people who don't need it receiving help and sitting on their ass. Not to mention in cities like SF where you are definitely fully taken care of if you're in bad shape, crime is worse than ever.
What's really funny about this is you claim cracking down on crime doesn't change things at all when NYC is the way it is today versus 10/20/30 years ago because of drastically different policies from different administrations having an effect.
Lucid108 t1_ixrq4lj wrote
Yeah, not like there are systemic barriers to a lot of the aid people need or anything
longknives t1_ixutqlj wrote
Absolute LOL that you think we have a remotely adequate safety net. Talk about not living in the real world.
c3p-bro t1_ixrjpt9 wrote
Yea that’s a lot of words to avoid answering a question with a one word response. What was his profession?
Lucid108 t1_ixrkcnf wrote
What does his profession have to do specifically with my original post?
c3p-bro t1_ixrne1f wrote
I’d ask why you’re avoiding the question but I already know the answer
Lucid108 t1_ixrppmm wrote
Right back at ya
c3p-bro t1_ixrq6jx wrote
He was a social worker that was supposed to replace the police once they are abolished. It’s extremely relevant to your original comment since that’s the future you want. See? Two can play the strawman game.
Lucid108 t1_ixrre0b wrote
So the fact that this occurred the way that it did is meant to invalidate the idea that police need to be defunded and other programs need the resources to combat the social problems that lead to violent outcomes?
c3p-bro t1_ixrslb0 wrote
Yes I think the fact that the social workers meant to replace the defunded police are being beat to death in street somewhat invalidates the argument.
You’re not riding around on expensive toys beating people who cross you to death out of desperation or poverty. You’re doing it because you’re garbage who has no place in society.
Defunding the police does not fix these types - they are beyond help. If you think otherwise we fundamentally disagree on this.
I just hope you never find yourself in the same situation he did.
user_joined_just_now t1_ixrmdl4 wrote
> most people don't do crime for fun, but out of desperation
When you beat a guy to death with 30 of your friends while riding ATVs that cost thousands of dollars "out of desperation". Progressive moment.
The vast majority of poor people manage to get by without committing violent crimes.
Let us suppose that as part of an inquiry into the needs of NYC's most desperate, the city sent out a few hundred people with credit cards to walk around with at night as robbery bait. Where do you think these credit cards would be swiped after being taken? Do you genuinely think that most of them would be used to buy groceries and pay rent?
raifikii t1_ixrewkb wrote
I’d rather they solve the crime now then get to the root. I’m not holding my breath for City, local, or federal government to make effective changes at the grassroots level whose benefits we may not see for a generation+ in the future. If we can do a better job at stopping crime and violence now, why wouldn’t we? These two strategies aren’t mutually exclusive.
Lucid108 t1_ixrifpg wrote
I'd argue that the two are mutually exclusive bc cops are fiercely protective of the power that they have (ex. The time the police went on strike bc greater oversight was on the table) and a lot of what it would take to prevent crime would mean, at the very least, a large-scale reallocation of resources from police to a variety of other needed public services (like housing, mental health, education/extra cirricular activities for kids). At least, if the goal is prevention of crime and rehabilitation after the fact, as opposed to just outright punishment, which the cops are quite well-equipped to do
NashvilleHot t1_ixsicwt wrote
Might want to take a look at crime clearance rates. Not holding my breath on cops solving crimes now either.
user_joined_just_now t1_ixrvbdn wrote
Those 30 individuals beat that guy to death because of socioeconomic factors. What we need to do is address those factors by increasing their access to employment, education, housing, and public pools. Maybe throw in a blowie or two. Effectively tackling crime requires addressing its root causes, not simply taking a punitive approach that continues to perpetuate both mass incarceration and the cycle of crime.
[deleted] t1_ixxcger wrote
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