What forced hospitalization feels like in New York City, as Mayor Adams pushes for more
gothamist.comSubmitted by psychothumbs t3_zazqf0 in nyc
Comments
mowotlarx t1_iyp7i15 wrote
Notable that nurses in public hospitals are paid on average $14k less than in private hospitals and have a terrible patient/nurse ratio.
SolitaryMarmot t1_iypmzkj wrote
There used to be a provision for front line health care workers in public hospitals that tied their pay to a specific list of comparable titles in private hospitals. It was suspended in 2006 by Bloomberg's OLR and has never been reactivated.
As of June 2020, RN license grantees are required to hold a BSN to be hired even as a med surg staff nurse (which wasn't always the case) so I imagine the parity provisions will be back sooner rather than later.
mowotlarx t1_iyqx0o8 wrote
Knowing this administration and listening to how they've rolled out this announcement with almost no acknowledgement of what is happening in the hospitals the intent to turn into medical nails, I don't think parity provisions will be back soon.
Rottimer t1_iyvml4y wrote
This mayor regularly meets with Bloomberg for advice and emphasizes cost cutting. Don’t expect parity.
[deleted] t1_iyxiphg wrote
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FastFingersDude t1_iyp5ygz wrote
Especially if not paid well.
iStealyournewspapers t1_iypp1xc wrote
Time to bring out the robots!
Thtguy1289_NY t1_iyp9kv9 wrote
OK so we can't arrest them, and can't hospitalize them. What exactly do you propose we do for people who are clearly dangers to themselves and others?
George4Mayor86 t1_iypie16 wrote
Let them rot and pat ourselves in the back for how progressive and enlightened we are, apparently.
Grass8989 t1_iypapvs wrote
The progressive way is to let them rot in the streets and subway until they perform a violent act and are ultimately incarcerated.
HagridsSexyNippples t1_iyre3gd wrote
I’m super liberal, but even I agree with you. I would say I feel this way because I’ve grown up in the worst parts of New York City and have seen some stuff over the years, but I have a friend who grew up in similar circumstances, and she’s already on social media ranting about how terrible this is.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iysfvvx wrote
Ffs that’s not what progressives are advocating for and you know it. Jesus Christ this fascist gaslighting has to stop.
happybarfday t1_iz1lrv8 wrote
So tell us what they want lol, you want to bitch about people putting words in your mouth but then you have nothing to say about solutions yourself... I feel like inevitably it's some pipedream shit where we're going to build 50 new skyscrapers with a free one-bedroom apartment for every homeless person, with free amenities, free drugs and alcohol, free food, free education, free medical aid, $2000 basic income a month, free everything and then they will magically one day totally willingly decide to stop being mentally ill and stop being addicted to substances and become productive contributing, self-sufficient members of society.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iz2czt2 wrote
People have literally been saying the solutions for the past 5 years: build more housing, expand the social safety net, improve healthcare in the city.
> I feel like inevitably it's some pipedream shit where we're going to build 50 new skyscrapers with a free one-bedroom apartment for every homeless person, with free amenities, free drugs and alcohol, free food, free education, free medical aid, $2000 basic income a month, free everything and then they will magically one day totally willingly decide to stop being mentally ill and stop being addicted to substances and become productive contributing, self-sufficient members of society.
It’s funny how you whine about being called out for putting words in my mouth and then immediately double down on it. Never change, fascist.
happybarfday t1_iz2emrb wrote
Right, so throw more money at the problem. How am I putting words in your mouth? I just got into more specifics that you fail to actually talk about when you put forth vague ideas.
We literally said the same shit - free houses, free healthcare, free "social safety net" (food stamps, drug treatment, counseling, education and employment programs, etc). If you disagree on the specifics then feel free to elaborate.
I'm just being realistic about how much free shit would need to be provided to give the majority of mentally ill and/or just generally spiteful and angry homeless people to get their shit together, get sober, and support themselves at the bare minimum...
I'm all for this shit. I pay my insane taxes here every year. And every year nothing changes. The thing is, I don't trust our government to any of this shit not matter how much money we give them. What happened to those billions that went into Thrive? What the fuck has the government been doing with our money?
Politicians and developers and corporations, etc will just embezzle and/or waste the money or do some other corrupt or incompetent shit to enrich themselves and prolong the issue so that they can continue to get more. There's no profit in fixing homelessness for anyone so why would they have any incentive to do that? I have zero confidence left in government, whether right or left...
Call me a fascist or socialist or whatever, take all my money and put whoever you want in office, just somebody fucking do something to make any change whatsofuckingever.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iz2l5f8 wrote
> We literally said the same shit - free houses, free healthcare, free "social safety net" (food stamps, drug treatment, counseling, education and employment programs, etc).
Please show me where I said that.
This is the funniest thing about you people.
> Call me a fascist or socialist or whatever, take all my money and put whoever you want in office, just somebody fucking do something to make any change whatsofuckingever.
You say that, but then you mock the policies that would actually make a difference.
What are you for, good sir?
happybarfday t1_iz2nqhp wrote
>Please show me where I said that.
Uhh your words in literally your last post:
>People have literally been saying the solutions for the past 5 years: build more housing, expand the social safety net, improve healthcare in the city.
I'm not mocking the solutions but rather the delusion that any of this shit will actually happen and not be turned into another grift where the winners are the politicians, corporations and wealthy, the homeless get some token scraps, and the middle class (us) ends up paying for all of it and getting nothing in return. Free flying ponies made of gold for everyone would make a difference too, but I would mock the idea of that happening as well...
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iz2shin wrote
> People have literally been saying the solutions for the past 5 years: build more housing, expand the social safety net, improve healthcare in the city.
That’s not “free houses, free healthcare, free "social safety net" (food stamps, drug treatment, counseling, education and employment programs, etc).”
happybarfday t1_iz2sxkf wrote
Oh okay, so the homeless people are paying for that new housing, healthcare and social safety net programs and resources? Great sounds good.
DirtySkell t1_iz596we wrote
It's really disgusting that we let them rot in the streets and subways, there are so many better places to do that.
GoRangers5 t1_iyrb3bu wrote
[deleted] t1_iyst54r wrote
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GoRangers5 t1_iystna0 wrote
After your third arrest, the judge says to you “your going to the pot.”
AnacharsisIV t1_iyw3jyr wrote
Build a thunderdome on an island and drop them in there and let them fight it out
SolitaryMarmot t1_iyplck9 wrote
Treat them appropriately with assertive community treatment in supportive housing.
Jail and 72 inpatient psych holds don't work. We've been doing that for decades.
Thtguy1289_NY t1_iyptoyg wrote
What exactly is "assertive community treatment" ?
WikiSummarizerBot t1_iyqi6qo wrote
>Assertive community treatment (ACT) is an intensive and highly integrated approach for community mental health service delivery. ACT teams serve individuals that have been diagnosed with serious and persistent forms of mental illness, predominantly but not exclusively the schizophrenia spectrum disorders. ACT service recipients may also have diagnostic profiles that include features typically found in other DSM-5 categories (for example, bipolar, depressive, anxiety, and personality disorders, among others).
^([ )^(F.A.Q)^( | )^(Opt Out)^( | )^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)^( | )^(GitHub)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Grass8989 t1_iyqnorb wrote
…but their rights!
realog173 t1_iyr0ggp wrote
This is a fine idea to solve part of the problem, but then let’s actually do that. All similar efforts to this point have been totally half baked and ineffective. Taking these people off the streets at least provides a solution for the rest of us even if it’s not an effective treatment.
The other question is what to do with the people who don’t want to go to supportive housing because there are rules. In Cape Town for example they offer excellent housing programs and even include free training for trades and other entry level jobs, but the streets are still swarmed because you’re not allowed to do drugs in these houses.
SolitaryMarmot t1_iyr35xs wrote
But they will just be back on the streets in 72 hours up to 15 days. And they just get better at hiding from treatment. That's why a bunch of clinicians were quoted in the Goldstein article yesterday claiming what a poor idea this is. It will likely make the problem worse in the long run. Discharging people back to the street or a homeless shelter while overburdening an already stressed inpatient psych system is a terrible idea. There aren't beds for people who ARE suicidal and homicidal. Now those people will be lined up in ED hallways and on med surg floors because the cops are rounding up the homeless and turning Hospitals in de facto shelters.
We should build the mental health infrastructure people need instead of doing something counter productive that has the potential to break and already fragile system.
realog173 t1_iyrc89r wrote
Definitely agree we need real solutions that address the source of these problems, but I don’t agree that this will make the problem on the streets worse.
fafalone t1_iyu7wpq wrote
> but the streets are still swarmed because you’re not allowed to do drugs in these houses.
Get rid of this stupid fucking policy, that's one thing that can be done. It's ass-backwards to try to force someone with a drug problem to quit first, then be able to stabilize their life. A stable life is a key factor for being able to get off drugs, and Housing First programs that provide housing regardless of sobriety have been far more effective than enforced sobriety.
happybarfday t1_iz1me5f wrote
Okay but then how do you handle the liability when they overdose in the housing you're providing? Who is cleaning it up if they soil themselves or destroy the house in a mentally ill fit? Who is watching them 24/7 to make sure they aren't doing this things in the first place and intervening?
What about other sober homeless people who don't want to be around people doing drugs and drinking? They're now forced to live next to a bunch of people shooting up and passing out drunk?
What do you do to prevent theft and assault within these places? You hire 24/7 security and nurses? Who's paying for all this for the next 100 years?
Rottimer t1_iyvn2tg wrote
People that are a danger to themselves or others have always been able to be involuntarily evaluated. Whether the cops did anything about it is different question.
The change here is the standard is loosened to include people who seemingly can’t meet their own basic needs. If can’t see how that might be abused or easily used incompetently, I can’t help you. If you can’t see how it would be a problem that though promises have been made for additional funding in the future but the policy starts today, I can’t help you.
Thtguy1289_NY t1_iyvsys6 wrote
If you can't see how mentally unwell people are more of a danger to themselves and others than ordinary people, and that the current system for involuntary lockup is far from adequate, I can't help you.
If you can't see that it's better to get these people some kind of treatment now, rather than waiting for the absolutely perfect solution while they freeze, live in fear, or attack people, I can't help you.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iysg8gw wrote
The answer is literally as simple as building more housing and expanding the social safety net. That’s all progressives have been advocating for this entire time.
Thtguy1289_NY t1_iysgbd0 wrote
How does housing help someone who is unable to care for themselves?
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iysht5q wrote
Because more housing means more supportive housing programs, which will help these people take care of themselves.
InfernalTest t1_iytd1oi wrote
the problem is they require the monitoring and maintenance that is only allowable for someone who s under the control of the state
they cant be forced to return home ( and not live on teh street or ride the trains ) or ( the biggie ) take psych meds or keep a job - all of which someone who is severe schizo affective or schizophrenic and bi polar cant manage unless someone is MAKING them do those things
and lets not even talk about the ppl that are addicted to sucstances or alchohol who again - are so addicted that they already dont follow through exactly because of their addiction...
and then of course you have to find a mass of people willing to manage these sorts o f people as a full time job .....and pay them enough to retain them.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iytdfku wrote
Are you saying that as an argument against supportive housing? Because that’s already what’s going to happen under Adams’ plan.
InfernalTest t1_iyug5b8 wrote
my reply is rather that what youre saying is "supportive" housing doesnt really address what these people need given the way the law and how supportive housing works.
there is no place thats making people take meds and/or controlling their movement... unless that person is in the custody of the state.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iyuhe94 wrote
Adams’ plan doesn’t give them that either. You’d be surprised how much social support and trust building will solve the problem.
InfernalTest t1_iyvgtub wrote
it may solve SOME problems but clearly it doesnt do it enough for the vast majority of people that are severely mentally ill - there is a ton of services for people IF they decide to take advantage of them ...the issue is there is no process / mechanism to to make someone who chooses to not take their meds and not sleep on the streets to do so UNTIL they do something ( harmful) to themselves or to someone else.
they require someone /or something and for them to subject to that treatment of this is "where you HAVE to be , and these are the meds you MUST take"
our laws currently dont allow for that kind of control unless they are in the custody of the state..and the only way you get into custody is either criminally or voluntarilly ...there is no inbetween legally for the kinds of controls that they need versus whats legally allowable. really thats it
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iyx5jrc wrote
> it may solve SOME problems but clearly it doesnt do it enough for the vast majority of people that are severely mentally ill
[citation needed]
> there is a ton of services for people IF they decide to take advantage of them
And they are likely underfunded and understaffed under this administration. Imagine if we actually had someone competent running things…
InfernalTest t1_iyxll83 wrote
- this is about those who refuse or ignore the help of supportive services despite the fact they are severely mentally ill and need meds- or are substance /alchohol dependant....
no matter how much you may offer them a free home or counseling there is ( at least in NY ) nothing that can MAKE them take it when clearly they need it and aside from involuntarily making them subject to being detained or controlling them after they are medically stabilized ...there is little to MAKE them continue to adhere to meds or stay where a home is offered if they decide to not take meds and not take the bed you offer them...so the solution for them isnt supportive housing since they refuse to accept or acknowledge that they should be subject to services
this situation is described over and over by psychiatric and medical staff at hospitals and halfway houses ...
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iyy1p02 wrote
> this situation is described over and over by psychiatric and medical staff at hospitals and halfway houses ...
Yeah, because those places aren’t equipped to handle these people long term. They’re chronically understaffed and underfunded by a government that only sees them as a political pawn.
Thtguy1289_NY t1_iyslc96 wrote
Yea but some of these people literally can't take care of themselves though, how does it help them? Like even with support they cannot live on their own
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iysoo7s wrote
Do you not know what supportive housing is?
happybarfday t1_iz1msgl wrote
I mean no, why the fuck would I? It's not my job or industry... the problem is that you never get specific about the hard questions.
At the end of the day I never see a real solid answer for how to handle people who don't want this assistance and refuse to live like a civilized human because they are mentally ill or just fucking antisocial assholes. The answer is always just "throw more money and resources at it" and apparently someday they will willingly change? No, some people are just NOT ever going to get it together for themselves no matter how many resources are available.
Key-Recognition-7190 t1_iyv6w3v wrote
And that's ultimately where we have a problem it ISNT simple.
Building in NY is hella expensive and reality is NO one with any influence or money wants to build that kind of housing. After all who is going to spend possibly billions of dollars to house a population that let's be honest here only about 20% will ultimately be able to take care of themselves. Are tax payers just expected to take care of these increasing number of people for the rest of their lives? What guarantee is there that supporting a system like that wouldn't be a budget nightmare like what the MTA has become.
While I'm on the topic assuming we do somehow build the housing what stops the vast majority of homeless in the country from migrating here to use these new housing? It's a never ending cycle. Please don't say nationalizing that isn't something feasible until atleast another 2 or 4 years.
On Expanding the safety net (Atleast in New York) in an administration that is filled with unqualified and honestly lazy workers is just asking for fraud and abuse. It's not that I don't think it's a bad idea it's just unless it's manned by an experienced and motivated administration it's once again just going to be filled with massive fraud and abuse!
It's 7 in the morning and I'm phone posting but all I'm saying is the answer isn't so simple there are so many prerequisites needed for this.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iyx59si wrote
> Building in NY is hella expensive and reality is NO one with any influence or money wants to build that kind of housing.
So force them to. We have the power both in the city government and state government to completely overhaul rezoning laws and community councils. Why don’t we?
> After all who is going to spend possibly billions of dollars to house a population that let's be honest here only about 20% will ultimately be able to take care of themselves.
That’s the point of a social safety net, though. Not everything needs to turn a profit.
> While I'm on the topic assuming we do somehow build the housing what stops the vast majority of homeless in the country from migrating here to use these new housing?
Nothing, but then again, they’re being sent here anyway. If we give them housing, they’re more likely to contribute positively to the city instead of being on the street, y’know, like you people are so concerned about.
> On Expanding the safety net (Atleast in New York) in an administration that is filled with unqualified and honestly lazy workers is just asking for fraud and abuse
Then maybe we shouldn’t have drank the crime Kool aid and voted him in.
happybarfday t1_iz1mxod wrote
> So force them to.
So we can force developers to build unprofitable buildings but we can't force destructive, sick, mentally ill addicts to get help for their own good and the good of society...
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iz2cco9 wrote
Yes? Developers don’t have rights.
happybarfday t1_iz2dy6z wrote
I don't have the right to go piss on the door of your building, shoot up heroin, then pass out there and shit myself and then attack you when you try to wake me up to get the fuck out of the way, but this shit happens on the daily in our city. Happened right outside my own building.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iz2kxou wrote
Huh? That’s not how civil rights work. Also lmao at you defending big real estate like that.
> Happened right outside my own building.
Sure it did.
happybarfday t1_iz2neki wrote
You have anything to actually contribute other than naysaying and condescending remarks? Solutions? Research studies? Insights of your own? No?
[deleted] t1_iz2qzqs wrote
[removed]
happybarfday t1_iz2ra7i wrote
Won't happen, might as well say we should give them magic beans... let me know when it does and I'll eat my hat.
mamiyaRZ67 t1_iyp7hdu wrote
Boo hoo. It's much more humane than throwing them in a cell in Rikers. These people are totally incapable of taking care of themselves and they will never be rehabilitated. They need to be moved into humane asylums for the long term.
goBolts35 t1_iyq4smq wrote
And you expect these asylums to be built, staffed, and funded when?
mamiyaRZ67 t1_iyqecuc wrote
Yesterday.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iysfyjo wrote
Okay, give them a raise, then.
Elaine_Benes_Lovr t1_iyqnwvl wrote
40 years ago
Rottimer t1_iyvnj9c wrote
They don’t care as long as they don’t see them.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iysg36a wrote
Lmao it’s hilarious how you just want to force these people to ascribe to your cruel worldview of the ends justifying the means. That’s not how people work.
Iridium_Pumpkin t1_iyvd6qj wrote
Yeah, well if they can't live in society, then what do you want? If they want to be crazy and unrestricted, they can live out in a forest in the middle of nowhere, not in the middle of a city full of people.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iyx4neg wrote
> Yeah, well if they can't live in society, then what do you want?
We can build them houses and give them the care they need as a stipulation for getting a house.
> If they want to be crazy and unrestricted, they can live out in a forest in the middle of nowhere, not in the middle of a city full of people.
None of them want that. Especially if they’re addicted to a substance or suffering mental health issues. Stop projecting onto them.
Iridium_Pumpkin t1_iyx9sd1 wrote
And what if they'd rather not get help, and would rather keep screaming at Asian women and pissing on subway stairwells?
This isn't about helping the down and out bum with a heart of gold, it's about the guys that go into Starbucks bathrooms and smear their shit all over the walls.
Also, if you're giving out free houses for staying sober I'll take one.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iyxc75q wrote
> And what if they'd rather not get help, and would rather keep screaming at Asian women and pissing on subway stairwells?
What makes you so sure they won’t?
> This isn't about helping the down and out bum with a heart of gold, it's about the guys that go into Starbucks bathrooms and smear their shit all over the walls.
Yeah, I was referring to them. It’s called the carrot and stick method. You just wanna use sticks.
> Also, if you're giving out free houses for staying sober I'll take one.
That’s not what I said. Jesus, you people can’t stop projecting and lying and using falsehoods to make up your arguments, can’t you?
Iridium_Pumpkin t1_iyxgx0j wrote
Dude, you don't seem to get it. There are some people that can. not. be. helped. They WANT to be crazy. They don't want to be medicated. They don't want to be sober. And they would sooner stab you than not if you tried to make them. And the second they are out on their own they will go back to their old ways.
THESE are the the people that need to be forced into involuntary treatment, probably for life.
There is sometimes no cure for crazy. Pills and therapy are not a cure all.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iyy1ggv wrote
> Dude, you don't seem to get it. There are some people that can. not. be. helped. They WANT to be crazy
Lmao are you calling every mentally ill homeless person the joker? Fucking lol
I knew I shouldn’t have been taking this conversation seriously.
Iridium_Pumpkin t1_iyy1vuc wrote
Yeah, I don't think you really get what I was going for. I meant that they do not want doctors, do not want treatment, do not want medication. They just want complete unfettered freedom to do whatever they want.
Obviously they would not choose this as their default setting if given the choice. But they'd rather live with the crazy than treat it.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iyy9m55 wrote
Please show me proof actual homeless people are like that.
Iridium_Pumpkin t1_iyyb8o9 wrote
Go work in homeless services for a decade then get back to me.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iyybm97 wrote
Lmao like you’ve worked there?
Do you really think someone would do that? Tell lies on the internet?
Iridium_Pumpkin t1_iyycyzq wrote
No, but I have a relative that did. Burned out after ten years and left him very disillusioned.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iyyf06g wrote
And so you take that out on… the homeless? Why not the people in power who could’ve helped him?
Iridium_Pumpkin t1_iyyho5x wrote
No genius,I'm saying these views because I know someone that worked in the sector for a long time, and basically what he said was that there is no real way to solve the homeless problem until you separate out the junkies to forced treatment and the severely mentally ill to permanent institutions.
Then you can start dealing with the people that can actually be helped. But the junkies and severe crazies ruin a lot of the services and public goodwill for everyone that could genuinely use the help.
And that's why I'm with Adams; lock up the batshit crazy ones where the won't be a danger to themselves, but chiefly longer a danger and public plague to others. I'd love for the subways not to smell like piss anymore. Or have to avoid the empty train car because theres a dude masturbating in it.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iyzpnd5 wrote
> No genius,I'm saying these views because I know someone that worked in the sector for a long time, and basically what he said was that there is no real way to solve the homeless problem until you separate out the junkies to forced treatment and the severely mentally ill to permanent institutions.
So you’re defending your argument with anecdotal evidence? Nice one lol
> Then you can start dealing with the people that can actually be helped. But the junkies and severe crazies ruin a lot of the services and public goodwill for everyone that could genuinely use the help.
And still you’ve yet to show any concrete evidence that that happens. 🤔🤔🤔
> And that's why I'm with Adams; lock up the batshit crazy ones where the won't be a danger to themselves, but chiefly longer a danger and public plague to others. I'd love for the subways not to smell like piss anymore.
Lmao then you’re backing the wrong horse. His plan does not do that.
happybarfday t1_iz1odzi wrote
Walk out your fucking door lol... you're just putting your fingers in your ears and screaming LALALA while some homeless guy is right now shitting his pants and groping a woman on the subway... you're the reason nothing ever gets accomplished, because your delicate sensibilities can't handle the fact that people are far more fucked up than you want to admit and your solutions are pathetically ineffective.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iz2c71j wrote
So no proof. Cool.
happybarfday t1_iz2dt97 wrote
You really think I give a shit to go hunt down some research paper to prove shit to a troll on the internet? You're not worth that.
If you've never seen a homeless person do anything even slightly distasteful in public then you either are a billionaire who never leaves their upper east side mansion, you're blind, a shut-in, or you don't live here in the first place...
Yes right okay, I'm totally making this shit up and every homeless person is just a nice, friendly, totally sober, totally mentally stable guy or gal who lost their job and they just need a free apartment and $1000 and they will be perfectly fine forever.
happybarfday t1_iz1o40k wrote
Are you just willing being stupid? The poster you're responding to literally said "there are SOME people" and you just immediately jump to some dumbass defense insinuating they must mean ALL homeless people because you don't have the capacity to engage with the actual argument at hand. Like read the fucking words...
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iz2car1 wrote
Even then, some homeless people being literally the joker is basically beyond satire at this point.
happybarfday t1_iz2deng wrote
Yes that's exactly what was said "literally the joker"... are you daft? No one said homeless people are killing politicians and burning piles of cash and doing heists at bank...
There are many many many incidents of homeless and/or disturbing individuals who wander around in public harassing and attacking people, pushing people on the subway, exposing themselves, menacing people, openly doing hard drugs and drinking, soiling themselves and facilities and passing out in public and private places, etc.
I know because a lot of that stuff has happened to me and or people I know, or I've witnessed it happen to others.
None of that has anything to do with the Joker so I'm not sure why you think that's some amazing gotcha comeback...
The only joke here is how your entire agenda seems to be to downplay and handwave the seriousness and frequency of these incidents.
[deleted] t1_iyr8q7k wrote
I hope you never need mental health care against your will.
okfnjesse t1_iyr9e7e wrote
I hope if they ever need mental health care against their will, we have a place available for them to go instead of rotting on the streets, getting a huge gangrenous foot, getting raped robbed and stabbed, coming down from crack highs, and committing an uncontrolled act of violence that leads to them murdering someone. This is not an exaggeration of what it's like for mentally ill people out on the streets at the moment. These people need care not freedom
Prolekult-Hauntolog t1_iyofmfw wrote
they need to make it easier for nurses to sedate these people. the number of women I know who've been groped or punched just doing their jobs is sickening, and the liberal hysteria about civil liberties, while necessary, is taken to far when it puts our healthcare workers in unsafe and undignified working conditions
ChrisFromLongIsland t1_iyp9fnb wrote
Nurses sedate patients all the time when they act out. They can't restrain them without lots of rules and paperwork but an anti psychotic and sleeping medicine infection happens with every incident. Edit: this is what happens in the ERs.
Grass8989 t1_iypale3 wrote
Nurses sedate patients with a doctors order. They can’t take it upon themselves to sedate a patient.
SolitaryMarmot t1_iypn5p8 wrote
Doctors order haldol for pretty much every psych patient in NYC. You in the CPEP? You are getting a haldol cocktail
Grass8989 t1_iypnqu2 wrote
Yea it’s called a standing order, that a doctor orders upon evaluation of a patient. You don’t walk into the ER and the nurses take it upon themselves to sedate you.
ChrisFromLongIsland t1_iyr8ogk wrote
Yes maybe there are doctors in the ER that might have some experience with psych patients and can order medication in a few seconds. The nurses are experienced enough as they deal with this every single day to have the medication drawn up before the doctor orders it and wait for the order so the whole process takes most no time.
ChrisFromLongIsland t1_iyr81ym wrote
Yes and in a place where their are nurses their is almost 100% if the time a doctor or PA around.
Amazing-Gap-3320 t1_iypq5n7 wrote
Wrong. Both medications and restraints need to have a doctor’s order.
ChrisFromLongIsland t1_iyr7saz wrote
Yes as as a patient is going crazy in an ER maybe their are doctors right there.
shep_pat t1_iyohfpk wrote
Let’s watch more hospital workers quit
Grass8989 t1_iyosgsr wrote
Tons of senior nurses are taking remote and/or travel positions (Which pay significantly higher than staff positions). The turnover is insane in Emergency Depts and has only gotten worse since the pandemic.
shep_pat t1_iypcvyq wrote
I was thinking of getting into nursing or teaching to get out of bartending but damn. I think I’m better off
Grass8989 t1_iypd685 wrote
Probably not worth it, if you’re at a busy bar. Travel nurses are/have been making bank throughout the pandemic. From what I’ve heard that’s slowing down a bit now.
shep_pat t1_iypdf5b wrote
I do very well generally but like the other two professions. It’s not the same anymore.
MyPiedaterre t1_iyr13m4 wrote
What do you find different? Was it covid that caused the change?
shep_pat t1_iyrihtt wrote
I’m not sure. We are all burnt out. A lot of new people are clueless. The money is all in the hands of the 1%. It’s hard to describe but I’d rather do almost anything else lately
Amazing-Gap-3320 t1_iypq26d wrote
Travel nurses need experience before getting to travel elsewhere.
Grass8989 t1_iyputvh wrote
Correct, which leads to a constant cycle of new grad nurses replacing senior nurses. You also generally need experience to work in the ED. Why would you subject yourself to that when you can make 3X the money traveling.
Amazing-Gap-3320 t1_iypvab1 wrote
If travel nurses get a contract to work in a hospital elsewhere but have no hospital experience (and get one day (or less) of orientation from what I hear), do you really want a nurse like that taking care of your loved ones?
Grass8989 t1_iypvrqv wrote
A lot of the travel nurses are quite experienced so I personally wouldn’t mind, but regardless this is just the reality of nursing right now.
Amazing-Gap-3320 t1_iypyazw wrote
You’ve clearly missed reading any part of my comments. You don’t encourage new grads to go into travel right away because they don’t have enough experience.
I KNOW the current travel nurses have plenty of hospital experience, that’s why they get to be good travel nurses.
Grass8989 t1_iyqnsib wrote
I never said you can be a new grad and immediately start traveling, however you usually can after a year or so depending on the agency, which is very appealing to (relatively) new nurses
HagridsSexyNippples t1_iyrf6c5 wrote
Do they not give nurses shift differential for working in these sort of dangerous wards? Because they really should. I used to work in a mental institution. It was hell. You really need to pay people a decent amount of money if you want them to deal with the potential of being injured all day. Places like mental institutions have high turnover because they don’t reward (pay) people enough to deal with what the job entails. My old job would take anyone with a pulse. Anyone. As long as you didn’t have a criminal record, they would hire you. This led to some shady people working with other vulnerable people, which made the patients lives so much harder, making the employees job harder, basically like a big cycle.
shep_pat t1_iyrhz36 wrote
I don’t know how it works but it’s just sad in general. City agencies are short handed as are hospitals. Yet the pay isn’t keeping up with inflation or the cost of living
fafalone t1_iyu89vg wrote
Sounds like they're missing out on good candidates desperate for a job by having a blanket ban on criminal records instead of only barring those whose specific offense provides a particular reason to think they're unsuitable for the job.
(In more civilized countries, records are sealed and employers submit a potential employees name to the police, who respond with a simple yes/no on whether they have an offense that disqualifies them from that specific job-- i.e. a sex offender wouldn't be allowed to work with kids or vulnerable adults, but would be able to get most other jobs, and a white collar fraudster would be able to work with kids, but not be allowed to work at a bank)
WickhamAkimbo t1_iysbm0k wrote
Guess we'll have to pay them more! The horror.
shep_pat t1_iysflha wrote
Imagine our medical bills. As if they weren’t high already
Ilovemytowm t1_iyr17lv wrote
My girlfried was assaulted by a violent homeless person. It was traumatizing and she is recovering.
Hence. I support this. No other options are left WHEN THEY REFUSE TREATMENT AND VIOLENTLY ASSAULT a women who is 5’3 and 108 lbs. I'm done.
ScarcitySenior3791 t1_iytp4ms wrote
Same thing happened to me last year in NYC. Although my shiner healed within a few weeks, the PTSD took quite a bit longer to diminish and so did the anger at the NYPD for refusing to pursue it in spite of clear security camera footage (in fairness though, I think the NYPD precinct was merely acting on the ADA's direction and felt that their hands were tied). Hope your girlfriend makes a recovery from the trauma, physical and emotional. It's a terrible thing to be subjected to.
Ilovemytowm t1_iyw12zg wrote
💔💔🥺💔💔
yankuniz t1_iyr36at wrote
When they assault people they are arrested charged and sentenced appropriately. Sounds like you are suggesting we arrest homeless people who have not committed any crimes because of your fear they may one day commit a crime?
Grass8989 t1_iyr5l8k wrote
We need to get people with violent history’s that are homeless off the streets. Most are deep in addiction/mental illness, and are ticking time bombs. It’s not humane or safe for anyone to live under these conditions.
yankuniz t1_iyr9pe5 wrote
This is more criteria than most people are giving in the comments. I do not disagree with you, but I would like to see some very strict guidelines that are publicly debated, agreed upon and adjusted over time. Many of these people have no advocates so there needs to be oversight and transparency. We cannot turn this into a system of locking people away without fair trials.
damagecontrolparty t1_iyroqk4 wrote
Victims of assault are subjected to a lifetime of PTSD.
yankuniz t1_iyrpig6 wrote
What’s your point?
spicytoastaficionado t1_iyrb0y0 wrote
>When they assault people they are arrested charged and sentenced appropriately.
Not really.
The psycho who murdered Christina Lee violently assaulted a subway commuter a few months before killing her, and was just given a court appearance and allowed to remain free even though he was a clear danger to public safety.
Ilovemytowm t1_iyr8gt9 wrote
Right. They are sentenced appropriately What a joke comment.
yankuniz t1_iyr8wh2 wrote
I don’t see the joke. Was the person who violently assaulted your loved one not punished?
Ilovemytowm t1_iyrf9du wrote
For the record when I say girlfriend... This is my friend not that it matters.
No, They are not punished. They are out walking the streets with everyone else and don't give a s*** about a record or being arrested or paying a fine. They don't f****** care because they are mentally ill.. They don't have a job They don't have a home They live in an alternate universe. So it's not a matter of not caring... it's because they are mentally ill and thinking the norms that shape and affect and guide us... it is meaningless.
I have a family member who is bipolar. There are times when he has to be committed against his will to get him back on his medication regime before he hurts himself or others. Maybe you should go rescue him from the horrible people that we are.
yankuniz t1_iyrgr0p wrote
I have been on the same situation so I know firsthand that it is not a simple or arbitrary process and I would not paint all mental health processes with the same brush. I was satisfied in my experience that the process tries to restrict people from being abused by more powerful people. The fear is that the police can start summarily making unwanted people disappear from society because they are inconvenient
Ilovemytowm t1_iyrmx63 wrote
I don't think that would ever happen. This is not 1898.
I say think.. so I'm not pretending I know otherwise.
Just getting tired of being afraid. I was on the subway and somebody got on.. sat behind me started screaming at me.ans getting close. I swear to God I felt like punching them. I was able to just get up and move to the next car.
Ilovemytowm t1_iyru67x wrote
Downvoted because as a woman, I want to defend myself against some screaming lunatic spitting in my ear so close to my back I was terrified.
People freaking suck.
Vegetable-Length-823 t1_iysatyl wrote
You can buy pepper spray in 7-11 for less than 7day unlimited metro card.
Rottimer t1_iyvo3pi wrote
This might not be the city for you. You sound like you’d feel a lot more comfortable living is some suburb far away.
Ilovemytowm t1_iyvwdlt wrote
I do not live in the city I live in New Jersey. Kind of in the country. But I've lived here in this area all my life. I come in constantly for dinner shows and then more dinners etc. I have friends who work in the city and live there as well. I don't think I should have to ever say for the first time in my life I don't feel safe on the subway and for the first time in my girlfriend's life she was assaulted. The answer is not telling her don't work here or telling me don't come here.
Rottimer t1_iywl6ml wrote
It really is the answer, or at least it's a better answer than you advocating to violate people's 4th and 5th amendment rights just so that you feel safer when you visit occasionally.
taubs1 t1_iypqs43 wrote
throw them into Arkham asylum
petitebrownie t1_iyra2ar wrote
I’ve had my colleagues get assaulted by psych patients in the ER. Watch more doctors and nurses quit because of this.
F4ilsafe t1_iythigp wrote
They have the luxury of quitting. The average person does not have the luxury of quitting walking on sidewalks or using the subway. SOMETHING has to be done. That being said, I feel for the docs/nurses/social workers. ERs are not designed to deal with psychotic patients.
There has to be a happy medium between the asylums of the 1950s and the situation we have now.
InfernalTest t1_iyvhcpy wrote
hm well there isnt much thats being done FOR psychotic patients beyond drugging them up when they do get into the system.
there isnt a lot of one to one therapy for severe psychotics that has worked to make them functional ...and drugging them is only as good as the ability to administer the drugs ....
petitebrownie t1_iz8iohc wrote
Lol luxury of quitting? You clearly know nothing about those in medicine. Ask any healthcare worker working in a NYC ER right now. If we had the luxury to quit many of us would have already.
And that being said, do I feel safe walking in the streets of NYC, taking the subway late night after a shift? Absolutely not. But I clearly don’t think the solution is “dumping them in the hospital” as if that’s the only place to deal with social work issues/homelessness. I do agree however the mentally ill should be institutionalized especially if they’re a threat to society but the reality is admitting a psychiatric patient is often not as easy as it sounds. Often times they’re eventually discharged. Better solutions are needed and this is just gonna cause even more chaos in our understaffed ERs right now.
random_account6721 t1_iyttj3n wrote
They need to just hire some off duty bouncers to guard the ER
[deleted] t1_iyp7slc wrote
[deleted]
Vegetable-Length-823 t1_iysbwo9 wrote
Just broadcast 2.5 hz on the platform pa system and let the fun begin
Emotional_Buddy1544 t1_iyqw4p7 wrote
I wouldn’t doubt it if police forcefully take out of the train, they’ll probably think I’m mentally I’ll and force me to get hospitalization 😂
limelimpidgreen t1_iypvrcg wrote
I have a friend who was hospitalized for mental illness against his will, and it’s not the solution y’all might think it is. And based on his story, I imagine a lot of people here are closer to having it happen to them than they think it is.
Deep-Classroom-879 t1_iypeiwd wrote
I was on my way to work today and as the doors at Jay street opened - I saw four cops surrounding what appeared to be a compromised person pushing an empty grocery cart. He was saying he didn’t want to go. Doors close. I get off at York street and head up the hill under the bridge and across the street.-Suddenly I hear cackling and screaming and when I look over an older gentleman who had been walking with a cane had been pushed to the ground. I didn’t see pushed him. I rushed over to help him up and another guy joins. Two minutes later, with a nod - we’re all running off to work. I do not think hospitalizing people against their will is the right way. The intervention should be about offering social services, housing etc. And yet I do worry about my fellow New Yorkers.
RichDaCuban t1_iypk19a wrote
I don't LIKE the idea of forced hospitalization either but the problem is that the city has been following the idea of offering social services but the people who need it most don't accept in the vast majority of cases.
fafalone t1_iyu8vja wrote
They might if e.g. shelters didn't suck so much.
Deep-Classroom-879 t1_iyvqvzf wrote
Wow - I’m actually shocked that I’ve been downvoted. I told this community about a experience that left me shaken, my complicated feelings about seeing both things within 5 mins and my attempt to process it. It’s almost as if you all really don’t care about an elderly gentleman who was pushed and would rather just glorify a workforce that isn’t trained to commit people to hospitals. Trust me they don’t want the responsibility either - that’s not what they signed up for. In any case, nyc - try getting out and helping someone who has just been pushed down next time instead of getting hard every time someone mentions calling the cops.
1600hazenstreet t1_iyot5oo wrote
Welcome your new CCP overload Mayor Adams.
Grass8989 t1_iyohug1 wrote
ER staff are assaulted by EDPs/mentally ill individuals daily, and hospital administrators dissuade them from filing charges (not that the cases would go anywhere in most situations anyway). It’s not easy to find people to work in these environments and maintain an unlimited level of compassion for everyone.