I have a vague recollection that the Septa app allows you to view where the various buses for a route actually are - the maps update every 15-30 seconds or some such. I think the regional rails do the same. but to your point, that requires cell connectivity.

the buses are the most confusing, mostly because of often unannounced detours and cancellations. the subway, the El, the trolleys and the RR are never confusing (that doesn't mean they are not sometimes frustrating though, usually because of delays, track changes [i.e. you need to board on westbound to go eastbound because of a breakdown], or skipped stops [this is due to delays, so for instance if there was a long delay because of a breakdown, and you are boarding at 11th, they might "skip" all stops till spring garden or Berks to get things moving again, and the overhead announcement will be muffled and you won't hear that detail and board anyway]).

so to answer your question-- if you have trouble with the tracks, yea, its possible you are dumb. but if its buses, no, i would not assume you are dumb from the info you have given.

I’ve been taking Septa for years and still haven’t mastered it - and I’m only talking about Regional Rail & the MFL / BSL.

I'd give the transit app a shot and see if it helps: https://transitapp.com/

Both can be true!

If you don’t have a phone, forget about it. To be honest, this would be hard in many cities to expect to be able to use public transit without a phone and having done prior research on route options.

But in situations where I didn’t have a phone or data access, I relied on system maps and real time service update boards—which transit systems in other countries do a much better job with.

If they don't have a speaker announcing major stops, it's confusing for sure.

tbh, i've never found any bus system to be super easy in any city I been to in the world in terms of finding routes. If it wasn't for my phone data/stored Google map or at least looking up and jotting down the routes before I leave my place of stay, it would be rather difficult.

Anything on rails is much easier.

Yes, this. SEPTA’s network is very robust but their official app is shit for actually figuring out how to get from point A to point B. Transit is much better and works almost anywhere in the country.

Both

Septa is definitely confusing and challenging. OP being dumb could go either way.

Regular bus user here, very rare subway or rail user. SEPTA is the source of many frustrations. But every new city I've ever moved to or spent time in, it's always damn hard to figure out the buses at first except for the very simplest situations.

SEPTA's app alone is no use for trip planning. My first few years in Philly I always used the transit tab on Google Maps directions for figuring out how to get from Point A to Point B. Supplemented by SEPTA app just for tracking the current bus that I'm waiting for. I have not yet become a real user of the Transit app because I have most of my regular places to go figured out by now, but I agree it has a much nicer interface.

Even with better tools for trip planning...detours will absolutely screw you every time. They happen so often and with so little warning. I have through bitter experience trained myself to check the SEPTA app before I leave the house for any detours on my route, but there are still pitfalls - the sudden unannounced detour; the completely impenetrable SEPTA prose in which a detour is described because they have not yet figured out how to show them as a line on a map; the planned and scheduled detour that ends EARLIER than planned and scheduled (this happens all the time) so that you are, once again, waiting like a chump in the wrong place for the bus.

The "invisible bus" is one of my favorite manifestations. Sometimes the app does not show a bus when there is one supposed to be on the schedule. This may mean that the bus in question is never coming. It may *also* mean that the bus in question has a non-functioning transmitter and you will only know it is coming by beholding it in the flesh. Cue once again waiting like a chump for a bus that may or may not be coming.

Nevertheless, I still prefer the bus to most other modes of transport (physical disability means I can't ride a bike or take really long walks) and I just have to content myself with regular complaining, apologizing to anyone who might be waiting for me at the other end, and taking those delightful little surveys that SEPTA occasionally issues to let me know they're listening...

and by the way speaking of physical limitations: I have always said that SEPTA's bus stop motto is "Fuck you if you need to sit down."

You are dumb.

Disagree that the subway, the El, trolleys and the RR are "never confusing". The way these trains are referred to colloquially can't even be agreed upon (ex, newer residents and tourists don't know the BSL is "the subway"). SEPTA's new wayfinding and renaming can't come soon enough.

Something that will hopefully be addressed with bus rev with fewer stops. But the so-called “accessibility advocates” don’t want to hear it. Less stops = more shelters and benches.

Apps like City Mapper or Transit really are your friend here for navigating SEPTA.

If you're talking about the subway and el - maybe you're dumb. They have route maps in every station and directional signage (although City Hall is a fucking nightmare to navigate even so).

If you're talking about buses, forget about it. I have no idea how I, if I were a noob to Philly, would figure out anything bus-related without just using Google Maps transit mode.

idk we figured it out in the 90s without any cell phones lol. i dont even know how we knew we just did lol. i remember having to take septa from north philly to warminster every day.

Septa blows

This is such a good point. I used to take buses everywhere in the 90s. It definitely used to get more difficult the further out in the burbs you got, but overall don't remember it being particularly difficult. Now, even with all the apps, I definitely struggle a bit more.

tbf the unannounced bus detours are usually not Septa's fault but more poor communication from the contractors working on the roads. The amount of times I've seen a bus pull up at an intersection of a closed road and have to let everyone off to walk to a different stop, when the driver clearly didn't even know about the construction, is pretty ridiculous. On the other hand Septa knows about their planned rail work so the app will pop up notifications about those and their impacts well in advance.

It’s definitely hard.

I was thinking about how i would get to 30th st station and it would be a pain

It's not the best, luckily they are working on some improvements. They have this thing called the wayfinding master plan, where they're planning to redesign signage, rename things, and make everything consistent. It mostly applies to the trains, but there's also a separate project called Bus Revolution in which they're redesigning the entire network. So hopefully things should be easier in a couple years.

Disagree in the RR is never confusing, if you have to buy a ticket you need to know what zone you’re going to and that isn’t posted anywhere!!!! So unnecessarily confusing for newer riders

It seems pretty straight forward to me, but I have taken many public transit systems. You can download pdfs of each route from the septa website which will give you the street names of specific stops if you are losing gps on your phone that frequently. I’ve come across an occasional detour, but didn’t have too many issues.

Edit: the 27 bus’s multiple flavors confused me. Not sure why they don’t make those separate lines.

I agree septa is terribly confusing. I grew up outside Chicago and was able to navigate that system very easily during my first time going downtown on my own. I've travelled to many cities in the US and abroad, and was able to navigate pretty well...with some hiccups, but generally able to get where I was going. Philly transit is mega confusing. RR by itself is fine, although it takes some getting used to, BSL on its own is fine, although buying a fare is a PITA. Trolleys on their own are fine. Busses are a nightmare and I have never felt confident going anywhere if a bus is involved. Septa is very disjointed, and there is no good system map IMO. I hate riding it unless it's single mode or a very simple single transfer trip. E.g. RR to suburban station and hop on the BSL. There is also no good single hub. Even 30th doesn't really connect to anything.

Here is a good example of the differences.

Septa maps (most detailed I could find, which I don't think I've ever seen posted at a station)

https://www5.septa.org/wp-content/uploads/travel/map-transit-network.pdf

https://www5.septa.org/wp-content/uploads/travel/map-philadelphia-transit-street.pdf

CTA map (this is posted at every station and major bus stops )

https://www.transitchicago.com/maps/system/

The 44 bus comes in 3 different variations. Another route so confusing, none of the transit apps I’ve used have managed to figure it out either

Invisible bus! In SF, you’d get the bus that would never arrive. A transmitter would tell you the bus was 10 minutes away, then 5, then back to 10, and sometimes it would arrive as indicated. But many times, it would just not show up

You perfectly described my exact feelings about the bus

And then there's getting lost in the tunnels under city hall. So scary. I once literally thought I would never make it out and would be found in a later era as a skeleton.

Not worse than any other city. I find it pretty easy to use but when I first started using it I got turned around a lot and lost, allot extra time and keep headphones low so you can hear any announcements of changes to routes.

ALSO! If you ask a bus or trolly driver they have always been super helpful to me

Biking will ALWAYS be more useful, reliable, and fast.

SEPTA is confusing as a bus rider. I also don’t really understand the fee system for regional rail.

Highly recommend CityMapper for figuring these systems out. Only gets you so far with detours though.

Public transportation in philly is horrible and it greatly upsets me. Making the public transportation better could really help to improve the city.

You’re not dumb. It’s not easy.

My favorite RR experience. I laugh now about it… I accidentally got on an Express train from Suburban ( that skips my Narberth stop).

Conductor comes by. I show him my zone 2 pass.
He asks “where you going?”

Me: “Narberth”

Him:

Him: “no yer not”

Me:

Me: “oh shit”

Try the Moovit app. It has ads, buuuut it accounts for detours and delays and gives you several options to get point A to point B, and is great for timing.

the bus drivers love to flip you off as they drive by you w/o stopping

The way I cackled at this... 😂

Yea it’s hard to go where you want unless you know the route that’ll get you there. That’s how transportation works. Wtf is this post

your username is accurate.

I love the bus. It takes some prep to know your connections. But you can always ask the driver. They're usually pretty chill about it. When I was younger they'd even call out and wait until I got off the bus - if I asked for a special stop. I still see them do it for middle school/highschool kids on occasion.

Are there actually tunnels under the city or are you fucking with us??

>the completely impenetrable SEPTA prose in which a detour is described

perfect description. is there a decoder guide out there somewhere?

Try using the Citymapper app.

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They’re the underground walkways that connect the subway to the el and regional raiI at the city hall stop. If I recall correctly they go for a few blocks at least.

No it is been here my whole life and just walked thru one from the sub at city hall never ever been down there won’t do it again I made a wrong turn.

I use the TRANSIT app (free download) which provides real-time info as well as detour information. Highly recommend.

The SEPTA apps are just the printed schedules. Which are useless.

The lack of signage pointing you in the right direction is abysmal. I’m tempted to print up and laminate my own saying “trolleys this way ->” and hang them every 10 feet because it absolutely is a death trap. How can they be so bad at basics?

Septa buses have definitely done this to me too

For ten years I didn't drive, taking Septa everywhere. It gets better; I had to travel daily for my job.

I was a printer technician in Center City from 2000 through 2010. My only transportation was Septa and I hit between three and eight different locations every day. Random locations, not the same places. Not even always in the city, I had to take a train more than once.

It takes a while, but you memorize the network. I did start smoking cigarettes, lighting one seemed to mainke the bus show up. Some days I made the sextifecta, riding a train, trolley, Market/Frankford, Broad Street line, busses, and the grand prize an electric bus (from overhead wires like a trolley).

You can go anywhere on Septa. At any daylight hour.

Next try a car then you can actually get everywhere whenever you want.

Get some paper schedules and keep them handy.

Center city SEPTA concourse. It is a massive system of pedestrian passages that connects most BSL, El, and Patco stations in center city, as well as suburban station. Parts of it are closed off since the pandemic, but used to be you could walk from Burlington on market street to the Patco station near Rittenhouse square without going above ground.

You know, there was a guerrilla artist some years back in Los Angeles who added a sign at a major freeway interchange to make a certain turnoff clearer and safer - perfectly reproducing the sign style, font, every aspect of standard freeway sign. Can't recall how long it was up before somebody official noticed and removed it. I think it would take a fraction of the effort to make guerrilla wayfinding signs for SEPTA...

The Race Vine BSL stop? Can you access the shelter or is it locked up?

Thank you for your comment and making me smile this morning. Haha

The bus fucking sucks

In combination with the underground portion of the Fashion District, you can go from 15th to 8th, including the other mall on 8th, without going outside.

Not dumb, just poor.

Honestly I would prefer Philly's system to Chicago's purely because Philly has more options and you can basically get within 3 blocks of any one destination in some way. It's easy to design an easy to use system when you have so many fewer bus routes.

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As a native here, i will recommend searching the address you need to go on Google Maps first, then click Directions and Bus. This is a better solution than the septa app. Google Maps will actually show you every stop the bus will make to keep you feom getting lost. Also, shows you the time difference between your arrival from one bus and the departure of another.

Septa app is only good for looking at advisory messages, road closes, and etc.

Hope this helps.

Yeah, trying to catch the express southbound on the BSL and suddenly you’re at 8th and Market because you didn’t notice the yellow lights on the front of the train….

From the rail perspective only (not a bus rider) - SEPTA is a lot less user friendly than the NYC system. I’ve lived in both places and I’ve found the public transportation in NYC to actually be convenient at times. Understood there is more people, but Philly lacks train stops in general and especially transit hubs. If you live in the extremities of the city, you always have to take the rail into the center and then back out. When I lived on the outskirts of queens, sure I’d have to transfer, but I could go in multiple directions, instead of just into the center, and then out again.

You’re just dumb . Kids use it to go to schools an hour away

The city of LA actually kept the sign you're referring too btw, they replaced it with a more official sign

This, especially when the art museum had it's strike, my bus would let us off and say to catch one up the street

Busses are weird cause they can constantly change routes, which also means Septa constantly evaluates if the route is economically "profitable". The Septa trip planner on Android is pretty solid on finding you a way to your destination, but tracking the bus never works right.

Are the tunnels there? Yes they are. Are the tunnels safe? During rush hour or before a major sports event or concert, probably. On off hours? I prefer walking outside, even on freezing days.

I mean, if you don’t have a phone, and don’t have the balls to ask the driver (or have a printed schedule, like back in the Stone Age), you’re kinda screwed, right? I’ve travelled to many unfamiliar cities and you gotta have a plan, or buck up and ask.

SEPTA really is terrible about helping with information. Even down in the subway system, where you would expect good signage and info it's extremely confusing for anyone not already familiar with the system. I've noted this time and again, and been agreed with time and again. SEPTA clearly has systemic problems that keep it from being better in this (and many other) areas. I suspect it's the same issues most others services in Philly (like trash collection, street repaving and other basic services) all suffer from.

If there is seating at the stops they will act like they don't see you and drive past your ass too. You sometimes need to basically stand in the street to get their attention as if they have blinders on.

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SEPTA's signage style is so inconsistent, no one would even bat an eye. I've seen wayfinding signs that consist entirely of a piece of printer paper haphazardly taped to the wall!

Lol y’all might be dumb I moved to Philly a little over a year ago and started learning the train system halfway through this past summer I figured out how to get to or from Philly from several hours away at any time of day/night on any day of the week ALL W/O a phone . Just ask one of the fifty other people waiting if the train is goin in the direction of the location of where you’re headed and 9/10 the first person you ask will have a clear and direct and correct answer for you. Most people are just too afraid to ask for help and sit there like a dumbass on their phone trying to be “self sufficient” 😂 **coming from a 24 year old who is always in favor of using technology, I just enjoy challenging myself and doing things solo with no technology

SEPTA's been impossible for me too lately. Buses whizzing past me (aka someone making eye contact with the bus driver with my blue card visible, no mistaking I'm a passenger), buses late or missing with no indication on the app, Google or signage, routes detoured wildly with no signage or indication on the apps or Google, suddenly all getting booted off way before the terminal stop with no direction or warning. I'm having to walk 25 minutes+ when I can and Ubering now, often having to arrive late or canceling on people because the buses are completely unreliable!

I think it's confusing, but really no more so than many other large transit systems. I guess that doesn't really help you ...

I think SEPTA just did an evaluation of their wayfinding, the finding was that it was confusing.