Submitted by Parking_Attitude_519 t3_10ew908 in technology
Comments
goomyman t1_j4uxwkv wrote
Homework drills lessons into you.
It’s repetitive and boring especially if you know the material but even still it makes you faster at it and memorize it.
It really depends on your personality and how fast you pick things up. You claim you got Bs in everything, you probably would have got As doing homework.
The fact that you think Bs are good enough and didn’t do homework says more about what you think of schooling and learning in general than homework.
Also yes I think the emphasis on homework is pretty dumb but I also think US schools agree with you as my daughter’s elementary schools ( moved ) had a no tears official policy for parents which mean don’t force your kid to do homework if they cry and then just a straight up no homework at all policy.
Honestly, I’m not a fan because my daughter will go to middleschool without a foundation where she has to just suck it up and do the work mindset which is needed to do well in school and honestly in life too if you work for anyone else. In the real life you get assigned stupid things and while there is often some room for constructive criticism in the end you have to do it anyway.
GoldWallpaper t1_j4vymqz wrote
> Homework drills lessons into you.
I never did a second of homework in school, and still aced every test. If you're a moderately smart kid, homework does nothing. School is based around the lowest common denominator, which is dumb kids. (College and grad school, otoh, were great learning experiences.)
This shouldn't be surprising if you've ever worked with Education majors at the university level. I did over a decade of research with people of all majors, and Ed. majors (including seniors!) were the only ones to proudly tell me they'd never written a paper or read a book in college. I'm not saying that all teachers are dumb, but the profession really attracts the bottom of the intellectual barrel, and the coursework is not rigorous.
[deleted] t1_j4y3wmg wrote
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goomyman t1_j4y4bv5 wrote
It’s not really though. Schools have high cap programs, High schools have running start. There are tons of clubs you can join. You get what you put into it.
Sure there are some hoops to jump through which have a lot of boring homework and some garbage mandatory classes but people are kidding themselves if they think this doesn’t continue into college where your paying to take learn useless skills with double the homework. And of course when you get a job and your paid poorly to do busy work or often just pretend to be busy until you can build up a resume where you can put some real thinking skills to the job.
Everyone has to go through the boring hoops to prepare you for life that is full of boring hoops.
It’s not like I don’t get it. I had writing teachers demand 10 page essays and then grade without reading them. Everyone has these stories. However these situations teach kids how to prioritize and how to deal with varieties of situations and varying degrees of bs.
ElemLight t1_j4w4tsi wrote
Interesting. I'm from Germany btw and I love learning new things. I just didn't like they way learning was done in schools. This kind of short term learning was never a thing for me and I took tests asy well tests, to see how much stuff i understood from just paying attention in class and asking questions. (I was always a Why-type. I couldn't memorize Pi until I looked up why it was this exact number and what it stood for in a more practical sense).
Today I am working in IT as a consultant for multinational companies and manage around 100 people. I wanted to do more tech stuff, but, as i was told, i was put in operations and co trolling because I understood the project better than the tech guys in shorter time.... I miss repetitive Tasks tho. Just let me edit 200 users in bulk....
lucidrage t1_j4vh8vo wrote
> had a no tears official policy for parents which mean don’t force your kid to do homework if they cry
You guys are spoiling the gen ZZs
CaPtAiN_KiDd t1_j4xu2on wrote
Kids learn differently. Rote system of learning doesn’t require you to actually think, only memorize. After a certain age past reading, writing, and basic arithmetic, they now have the ability to pursue things that pique their intellectual curiosity.
This is the point where they see through the bullshit and realize they’re just doing busy work in a juvenile daycare center.
goomyman t1_j4y2u81 wrote
Realizing bullshit and doing it anyways is actually a strong life lesson. Real life is full of bullshit tasks and the ability to do it anyway will actually help you get and maintain a job.
Distinct_Target_2277 t1_j4y5cdq wrote
I never did homework and was checked out most of the time at school but tested really well (90%+). I even had a teacher tell me that I would never keep a job because of your same thinking. It was completely untrue. I didn't do homework or pay much attention because I was not being engaged. I was there to learn not to do busy work. I've maintained full time employment for 2 decades now because work is where you have to do bullshit, not in school.
HugeAnalBeads t1_j4v3g5q wrote
You give school too much credit
Can't speak for dutch schools, but north American schools dont teach you shit. And homework should be abolished. Let kids be kids when they go home. They will learn more actually useful lessons socializing after school than quadratic equation homework. Homework places unneeded stress upon entire families, and kids that have to help raise families due to missing parents, or kids that go to the mall to meet other kids are penalized with, as you say, a B grade.
I can argue homework dumbs kids down. The fact you think a B isnt good enough shows me you're unaware your surgeon likely had all Bs. Same with the civil engineers and architechs that built the bridge you commute over twice a day.
Edit: here you go. Studies suggesting otherwise
https://www.edutopia.org/no-proven-benefits
https://www.bu.edu/articles/2019/is-homework-helpful/
https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/ed/12/01/are-you-down-or-done-homework
venustrapsflies t1_j4v6tdk wrote
I mean I hated homework, especially writing, but I have no clue how I would’ve learned to write an essay otherwise.
And with few exceptions students can’t learn complex and abstract concepts without practicing on their own. You get rid of homework and you make math and writing illiteracy worse.
schmaydog82 t1_j4wngxn wrote
I feel like being able to write an essay isn't exactly a useful skill for most people, I think this may be a bad example. I'm definitely not mad it was something that I was taught however
venustrapsflies t1_j4wwawr wrote
It’s not the essay writing per se, but organizing and presenting an argument along with general writing skills. There may be a lot of people who can get by without these skills, but their lives would be better if they had them.
HugeAnalBeads t1_j4va3th wrote
If you cant learn these things in the 2 hours a day, every day on these subjects, then that is a failure of your teacher or curriculum
You're suggesting 10 hours a week on essay writing is useless, but taking it home and doing the 11th hour without a teacher, is the difference between knowing an essay and not?
Extreme_Stuff_420 t1_j4v5dk7 wrote
Do your homework kid
HugeAnalBeads t1_j4vcc5a wrote
https://www.edutopia.org/no-proven-benefits
https://www.bu.edu/articles/2019/is-homework-helpful/
https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/ed/12/01/are-you-down-or-done-homework
If a professional electrical engineer doesn't require homework, why does a 13 year old
sketchy_ai t1_j4vbhu0 wrote
Your comment reminded me of an old joke :)
What do you call the person who graduated dead last at medical school?
...
...
...
Doctor.
HugeAnalBeads t1_j4vazs7 wrote
Why? Numerous studies have suggested homework is harmful and doesn't work.
These children are basically full time at school. If these things cant be properly taught in the 32 to 40 hours during the week; then that curriculum should be rewritten
PilotMuji t1_j4w99lj wrote
Have you read your links?
Your first source is an opinion and literally has a grammar mistake in the 2nd sentence of the excerpt.
Your second source highlights how there’s a debate on if homework is helpful. It mentions that the amount of homework in 6-8 yr olds increased from 8 minutes to 22 minutes, but showed no correlation in achievement. It then goes on to say that educators still think homework is necessary as they wouldn’t be able to fit in all the critical material in a school year if students weren’t practicing at home.
Your third source literally says that quality homework is needed. Too much homework is bad, but eliminating homework totally would disadvantage low income families.
HugeAnalBeads t1_j4wd8ee wrote
>educators still think homework is necessary as they wouldn’t be able to fit in all the critical material in a school year if students weren’t practicing at home
This isnt a case for homework. This is an example of a poor curriculum. Which is what I've said in every comment.
PilotMuji t1_j4wdq1n wrote
So you pick out one sentence out of everything I wrote. And then also argue against something that a link that YOU posted said.
HugeAnalBeads t1_j4we56j wrote
Dude I dont give a shit
You convinced me. Let the gimps do quadratic equations at night instead of socializing. Especially the ones with one parent that have way more responsibilities around the household. Fail those fucking kids they need to appreciate the extra 2 hours of homework after doing an entire 8 hour shift at school.
These dummies shouldve done their homework
PilotMuji t1_j4wf6us wrote
You don’t give a shit that your rebuttals fail to support your claims? Why did you even comment in the first place if not to convince others or at least have constructive debates?
Who says that we should ignore and fail students with such disadvantaged lives that they literally don’t have time to do homework? Do you think the solution is to abolish all homework for everyone, or handle these scenarios on an individual basis? At least from my anecdotal experience, there were programs and support resources that tried to target those specific individuals and other types of disadvantaged students.
HugeAnalBeads t1_j4wj2hs wrote
No I dont give a shit because I dont have a horse in the race. I'm just trying to advocate for children in single family homes who have more responsibilities than you did.
Imagine pushing this aggressively for little children to do more work after putting in an entire shift at school
Its fuckin bonkers. Kids are more depressed than they have ever been. Lets load those serfs up with more useless shit when they could be socializing and learning actual skills they will need in the future.
PilotMuji t1_j4wki0d wrote
What am I pushing aggressively? That we need to load up kids with unmanageable amounts of homework every day? All I've done is point out how your sources don't support your arguments. Why are you making up things that I haven't said, and made assumptions about my life that you can't possibly have known? Why am I being brought into the picture at all? My personal life is not relevant to this discussion.
Is it little children who are doing quadratic equations now? How old is a "little" child in your definition? If it's elementary school, your own source says that 6-8 year olds have about 22 minutes of homework per day. Those 6-8 year olds are definitely not doing quadratic equations.
Listen man, I'm all for reducing the amount of homework students get, sure. Keep advocating for children in single-parent families, more power and respect to you. But your arguments and sources are all over the place. Quite frankly, they don't form a coherent nor persuasive argument at all.
HugeAnalBeads t1_j4x2mds wrote
Dont give a shit
PilotMuji t1_j4x6rsz wrote
Sounds good!
HugeAnalBeads t1_j4x2nr9 wrote
Dont give a shit
CharlySB t1_j4yfzc0 wrote
Maybe he should have done his homework when he was in school.
GoldWallpaper t1_j4vxrtt wrote
When I was in 8th grade (ca. 1985) a kid in my class had internet at home. He sold downloaded essays for $5 a piece. He'd just bring a couple of stacks of printed papers to class and exchange the printouts for cash.
The teacher had no idea what the internet was, and never even noticed that multiple kids would turn in identical essays.
School really is a joke.
SpaceKappa42 t1_j4uuykh wrote
I'd probably would have used it to check for grammatical errors.
Matt_Tress t1_j4uxwl9 wrote
You should have used it for this comment.
ohpeekaboob t1_j4v535m wrote
Boom roasted
sooprvylyn t1_j4v5ves wrote
Spelling and grammar check has been a thing for decades. You dont need ai for that. In fact, the phone or computer you used to type your comment has this function. Use it next time.
fiddlenutz t1_j4tj2qs wrote
People are literally celebrating dumbing themselves down. Pretty soon this whole Metaverse crap will be too real where persona and intelligence is left up to AI while people will only know how to click a button.
HeavensCriedBlood t1_j4tko2d wrote
Shit there are people who are too dumb to know how to click a button now.
Deep_Charge_7749 t1_j4u1gpt wrote
I work in IT...can confirm
korean2na t1_j4v01xi wrote
That's part of the reason I got out of IT support and am pursuing software development.
Too many people who don't care to learn the basics of using a computer and end up requiring babysitters to hold their hands/clean up their messes.
Leather_Egg2096 t1_j4v0erg wrote
Software development involves user acceptance testing... And the users often provide the scope of the project....
HeavensCriedBlood t1_j4v5wkj wrote
It’s not the same at all. Working the front desk means you’re dealing with the same laziness over and over again and they’re just straight up rude 80% of the time. Working with BUSINESS customers usually comes with at least a standard level of IQ and some friggin courtesy
Leather_Egg2096 t1_j4v8lo7 wrote
Sure... That's how it works.
korean2na t1_j4v0nmv wrote
There's a difference between working with users indirectly to develop apps and working with the same users directly everyday to fix the same issues over and over again.
It's like trying to say aircraft engineers have the same interactions with people as flight attendants.
[deleted] t1_j4v1ro6 wrote
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runew0lf t1_j4tz7ye wrote
i doubt it, half the dumb shit i see is people not even knowing how to type a question into google with exactly the same kinda dumb stuff theyre asking.
voidsrus t1_j4tzmag wrote
>celebrating dumbing themselves down
if the questions are so dumb a computer can answer them, they already weren't going to learn very fucking much by wasting their time lol
FenixFVE t1_j4u43wa wrote
You haven't tried ChatGPT, have you?
voidsrus t1_j4u47t7 wrote
i have for many things, it’s great, apparently most homework assignments / essay prompts are a lot less remarkable and simply aren’t written to teach very much of value
tomvorlostriddle t1_j4ug4qc wrote
Is it possible that you have an advanced degree yourself?
Because, yes, it cannot yet do what people with advanced degrees can.
But remember how clueless we were in highschool...
aaOzymandias t1_j4v11nh wrote
Modern schooling in a nutshell. Nobody should be surprised about that. School is to teach you to be obedient, and a useful worker.
man-vs-spider t1_j4ulkkd wrote
They are school students, I can absolutely imagine that questions aimed at their level could be answered by ChatGPT
tomvorlostriddle t1_j4ug0pn wrote
No no, the computers are just becoming so good that you cannot ask questions in highschool that a computer cannot answer, or otherwise you doom every student except the rare gifted one to failure
Cyathem t1_j4ucagf wrote
Do you think you are dumber because you have Microsoft Word with spelling and grammar checking versus writing everything out by hand, on paper?
BurntToasters t1_j4vd5ej wrote
I mean do you think youre getting smarter if you make someone/something else do your homework?
There is obviously a difference between a spell checker and an essay writer
Cyathem t1_j4vfq7y wrote
There isn't if the essay writer only gives you the first 10% of the work, and then you have to manually improve it/check it.
BurntToasters t1_j4vn0rv wrote
If your planning on cheating using chatgpt, who would only generate 10% of an essay? Unless your implying that writing an essay is only 10% of work and proof reading is 90% cause by that logic, if your smart enough to know the subject to improve/check it, 10% of the work shouldnt be too much of a hassle.
Also being a glorified grammer/spell checker for an ai isnt going to teach you much
Cyathem t1_j4vpaxg wrote
Starting to write is the part that takes the longest. But, it's not the bulk of the work.
SkyLegend1337 t1_j4tlntx wrote
It's like I've seen this before somehwre.
NoPriorThreat t1_j4uivre wrote
calculators right? because people used to know the square root of 42.112. now they need calculator for that.
SkyLegend1337 t1_j4v1ras wrote
I was actually talking about the movie idiocracy. I've never known the square root of that btw.
[deleted] t1_j4tjuo9 wrote
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on-ap t1_j4uhv60 wrote
this may be true, but you could also argue that its a free tutor for learning stuff. For example I used it for explaining topics covered in exams I had to write. I learned more than any website could. Because normal websites are filled with seo text and ads. What they write over hundreds of lines, chatgpt can formulate in 20. Also a plus note is that you can ask questions on those answers. No way to do that on websites. Most of the time I searched the web for the answer, I didnt even find it. So you could say that the productity increases.
[deleted] t1_j4uwpf1 wrote
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AKluthe t1_j4xsxlw wrote
Watched some video on Twitter where someone was very proud about spending X hours to make an "animated" trailer that had a ChatGPT script and AI rendering the visuals.
The script was shallow and nonsensical. The visuals didn't look cohesive, they looked like random photobashes arranged in a slideshow.
I don't know if I'm more offended with how bad it looked or that a human still thinks they deserve credit after letting machines design it all.
The future of a media driven and generated by computers looks like the weird crap that plagues YouTube Kids.
demilitarizdsm t1_j4u4b17 wrote
The word finish is misleading. Anyone who uses it knows you use it to start a task, then you confirm the accuracy, edit the parts that aren't relevant and get variations until one seems satisfactory. Now if a teacher gave exactly those instructions and had just a little more creativity, we'd all see there is no problem here. Students are doing what they do best, preparing themselves for the real world by adapting tools to save themselves time and add value ontop of what the automation can do. Now there is a real skill they will use at work.
[deleted] t1_j4ulmwp wrote
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ross_guy t1_j4v1pv7 wrote
This. I’m a copywriter and have used a similar ai tool to outline branded blog posts and meta data for websites. Then I go in and finesse it to fit my specific marketing needs. It saves me a lot of time on copy that does nothing more than generate seo.
longrastaman t1_j4vokpn wrote
Same way I use image generators, half the grunt work is done. Now I can add the actual creative parts.
CharlySB t1_j4yg6dz wrote
Ngl I used it for a graduate class last week. Chatgpt gave me a rough outline and I took that to write the paper. Actually was pretty helpful for really understanding the material.
TheSnozzwangler t1_j4uoh27 wrote
I mean, the entire purpose of homework is for the students to work on developing and internalizing requisite skills for the course. The goal isn't just completing the homework, it's learning the material and doing the work necessary to complete it.
It's like if kids were able to just Google translate all of their foreign language essays; Sure the essay is done, but they've missed the entire point of the assignment.
quantumfucker t1_j4uwbba wrote
The only reason Google translating foreign language essays is bad is because you can’t rely on Google translate in the real world. But say there was such a tool that allowed you to seamlessly real-time translate anything you spoke or wrote into any other language. What would the actual point of expecting students to learn it by default be? Save it for enthusiasts/hobbyists or niche experts. Most people would benefit from having such a tool to improve global communication and work on problems past a language barrier.
Similarly, if the homework assignments given to kids is so rote that we can now automate it, maybe we should be finding better assignments that allow kids to work with new tools instead of complaining that they can’t do what the tools can manually.
TheSnozzwangler t1_j4v3pj1 wrote
>The only reason Google translating foreign language essays is bad is because you can’t rely on Google translate in the real world.
It's bad because if you're taking a foreign language class, the entire point of the class is to learn the language. Assignments are given so the student can learn and better internalize the material, they aren't just busywork. If you don't think children should be required to take a language class, then that's a different argument we could have.
>But say there was such a tool that allowed you to seamlessly real-time translate anything you spoke or wrote into any other language.
We are currently very far from this, and there are some expressions that are culturally specific and I don't think could ever really be translated 1:1, but sure we can take that as the premise.
>What would the actual point of expecting students to learn it by default be?
Language is a form of expression, and there is a difference in just getting your point across in a language and being able to freely express yourself using a language.
There are countless numbers of ways you are able to express any particular thought you have using a language, and many different nuances and subtleties you add as a fluent speaker, either through structure, tone, or by choice of expression. These are all be lost in translation.
Fluent speakers are also able to use language as a form of artistic expression (for example, poets and writers). One particular example I have of this is the Japanese author Haruki Murakami. In English, his translated books are interesting enough, but when I was talking with a Japanese friend about it, he said that I was really missing out by reading the translated work, and that the way Murakami used Japanese in his books was particularly beautiful.
There are creative new ways that speakers can use language. In English, you have abbreviations like "lol" and "lmao" which are now common in colloquial use, but at some point someone created these neologisms. A translation device would maybe be able to translate an existing idea, but it certainly could not create new expressions.
>Most people would benefit from having such a tool to improve global communication and work on problems past a language barrier.
It would certainly be beneficial, but if you are taking a class for it, then the point is to learn and internalize the material.
>Similarly, if the homework assignments given to kids is so rote that we can now automate it, maybe we should be finding better assignments that allow kids to work with new tools instead of complaining that they can’t do what the tools can manually.
To me, this is like saying that because we have calculators now, we should no longer teach math.
quantumfucker t1_j4v5gpp wrote
No, it’s more like saying that because we have calculators, we don’t need to make kids good at mental math or make them memorize formulas. We can focus on teaching them general principles since they can rely on programs existing to calculate those for them. The entire field of computer science rests on the idea of being able to reliably abstract away some lower level functionalities so we can focus on design and higher-level applications.
And for all you said about language expression, it doesn’t change that people still need to be able to recognize good language in order to be able to get AI to give them an output they can meaningfully use as a skill in their daily life. They just don’t need to write every word of it themselves, which is a more efficient way to accomplish tasks.
The example you gave regarding Japanese seems to fall under what I said about enthusiasts/hobbyists. The goal of schools is to prepare students for the world and to be useful citizens, not to unlock the artistic eye of every individual. All the power to people if they want to, but I’m not sure it’s more important for education systems to do that over helping people understand newly developed tools and how to apply them.
TheSnozzwangler t1_j4vaq5v wrote
>We can focus on teaching them general principles since they can rely on programs existing to calculate those for them. The entire field of computer science rests on the idea of being able to reliably abstract away some lower level functionalities so we can focus on design and higher-level applications.
When you get to higher level courses then sure, but the entire point of a lower level course is to build a strong understanding of the fundamental material. You are able to focus on higher level applications once you have that base of knowledge and intuition to draw upon.
>The goal of schools is to prepare students for the world and to be useful citizens, not to unlock the artistic eye of every individual.
Who are you to say what is or is not useful to any particular student? If someone eventually decides to become a translator, work abroad, or work in counter intelligence, then a fluent command of another language is a hugely beneficial skill. If someone ends up as a writer, chef, or artist, then plenty of STEM skills that are frequently considered "useful" could end up being useless to them. What is or is not useful is highly dependent on what the student ends up pursuing.
Not everything taught in school is going to be useful to everybody. The purpose of school is to give students a strong general base of knowledge so that they are able to pursue and focus on whatever they are interested in pursuing later in life. If they are taking a language class, then they should be there to learn the language, and writing in the language does contributes to that.
Writing and creating complex grammatical sentences in the foreign language aids in their learning of the language. The end goal is that they are able to "think in the language," not be able to create an English sentence and then translate it.
quantumfucker t1_j4veps6 wrote
What constitutes a “strong general base of knowledge” is a wild moving target and relies a lot on what society will be like. We obviously cannot teach everyone everything, so we need to make decisions based on the fact that public schools exist to prepare children for the future. If new tools become part of that, then they should be taught, just as we now teach programming in high school.
In a hypothetical world of accessible real-time translation, what exactly is the point of teaching foreign languages to students as a standard? Why do we need as many dedicated translators when anyone can work abroad using it? The people who need or want to pursue a finer study of it still can as a higher-education subject the same way people still can choose to study the classics in college and find niche applications of that.
TheSnozzwangler t1_j4vmlma wrote
>In a hypothetical world of accessible real-time translation, what exactly is the point of teaching foreign languages to students as a standard?
>Why do we need as many dedicated translators when anyone can work abroad using it?
It really depends on how the technology functions and how it is received. In your hypothetical, I am assuming that we're talking about is something like the google translate app but with more accurate translations, and not something fantastical like a Babel fish from H2G2.
If that is the sort of translation device we're talking about, I actually don't believe that it would open up work abroad to everyone. A large portion of working abroad is working alongside, communicating, and generally integrating with people of another culture. They not only want someone with whatever skills they're looking for, but they also want someone that knows the language and will fit into their culture.
Utilizing a translator app creates a sort of barrier to your integration abroad. At some level you are always going to be an outsider, and may even be ostracized to some degree. Imagine going to a bar after work and trying to have a conversation with your coworkers using a translator app, or trying to take a business call using it. It's just not an adequate replacement for fluency in the language. A foreign company would rather take someone that knows the language than someone who doesn't.
>And even if the tech falls short, wouldn’t it at least be prudent to teach students how to work with it?
This is the other problem; I think there are going to be a lot of situations where the tech would fall short. There just aren't simple 1:1 translations of every sentence, and a translator app would have significant issues in day to day use. For everyday utterances, there can be a significant amount of pragmatic meaning encoded into the sentences that requires understanding of unsaid context to decode (for example utterances with implicature or sarcasm).
As for if the tech should be taught to students, if it functions as-is, then is there really a need to teach it? Assuming it's a translator app that works just by plugging in a sentence and receiving an output, what else is there left to teach about it?
I just don't see it as beneficial to progressing a student towards the goal of fluency. The goal in any class is for the student to develop an understanding of the material, not just learn the means by which they can receive good marks.
Speculawyer t1_j4tyz2z wrote
They'll notice at test time.
Harami98 t1_j4uo49s wrote
quizlet here i come !
RotisserieChicken007 t1_j4thxnf wrote
Future plot twist (or Uno reverse card): Dutch Students who graduate are too stupid to secure a real job
KimmelToe t1_j4tlli6 wrote
doctors who go to school for years use Google to figure out your sickness.
Etiennera t1_j4tm2t2 wrote
I googled oversimplification, how did I end up here?
RotisserieChicken007 t1_j4tquon wrote
Just diagnose yourself and self-medicate then. No need for doctors. /s
Or were you referring to crappy doctors or recent ChatGPT medical graduates?
[deleted] t1_j4tn1hx wrote
I mean, sure. It can get them by. But if it pertains to their degree they’re just gonna graduate and not know jack shit then wonder why they can’t get a job or get fired for not being adequate.
The entire education system needs to be restructured due to technology.
Famous-Somewhere9191 t1_j4u48l2 wrote
You're going to get fired if you can't control an AI properly. They are learning a skill for the future which you aren't learning. Use it and don't get rusty in your habits.
kogatlas t1_j4tkokh wrote
Sounds like one of the few positives that will come out of this obsession is more focus on teaching in the classroom. Homework might have it's positives, but it's often just pointless busy work. I'll caveat that with the fact that a teacher who is overworked (specifically student to teacher ratio) isn't going to be able to do anything about this.
luis-mercado t1_j4tmcrd wrote
Why haven’t anyone noticed these teachers the existence of GPTZero?
Parking_Attitude_519 OP t1_j4tqfr6 wrote
Even if they were, it's pretty unrealiable. I tried using GPTzero and it marked ALL of the essays regardless of it being written by a human or chatGPT as AI generated. And what's to stop students from using GPTzero to edit their AI generated essays until it's detected as human?
luis-mercado t1_j4tr9hv wrote
There’s an extra human component that can’t be avoided: the teacher, at least a good teacher, know very well how their students tend to express themselves. So differences between their accustomed language and these essays would be easier to discern. And even when there is doubt, the teacher could ask some basic question about their own essay, questions they should answer easily since they wrote them, supposedly.
Parking_Attitude_519 OP t1_j4tscdl wrote
The student can edit it into their style or feed their past essays into chatGPT and write a new essay mimicking how they write. They can also just read their essays and learn the information contained inside them although I highly doubt they would.
BeondTheGrave t1_j4tw9sz wrote
I’ve done a lot of grading in a university setting, and this is genuinely a thing. You can always tell, because a student will go from writing like they’ve been hit in the head with a shovel to suddenly writing grammatically flawless, complex, multi clausal sentences. And then back to shove head the next sentence. And if you put the good sentence into google? Wikipedia every time.
The bigger issue is with essays entirely plagiarized or, I assume, written by an AI. Students can also ‘crap up’ their essay to disguise plagiarism which I’ve also seen. The thing I tell my students is they’ll spend more time trying to trick me than just doing the work. But the siren song of an easy A is strong in some.
luis-mercado t1_j4tysbc wrote
Precisely. Very well put.
Dredly t1_j4tvrv3 wrote
Why should the teachers care? if the student wants to not do their homework, so be it?
BeondTheGrave t1_j4tx8zf wrote
I’ve seen a lot of these articles now and I’m increasingly convinced the answer is just that teachers and profs are going to have to go back to the old methods of teaching, even tho they suck. Too many profs assign easy homework and exam style evaluations because students like them and they’re easy to grade. But that stuff has become very easy to crack, even before AIs. And the solutions are draconian, if you do an online exam some profs will track your eye movements (!!!) to see if you’re flipping tabs in a browser. What a joke.
The solution then is to go back to the traditional essay, and then ask a question that only an engaged student can answer. An AI might be able to scrape google and figure out who John Kennedy is, but if I ask a student to “Identify the long 1963 thesis and analyze its impact on the American decision to go to war in Vietnam” I don’t know that AI, at least for now, is going to be able to answer that. Moreover, the real secret is that I control all the information presented. Student essays that start talking about subjects outside the question, indeed outside the material presented in the course, begin to look suspicious.
Students don’t like essays because they’re hard, and profs don’t like grading them because it takes forever. But it’s the way to go. And IMHO long form assessments more closely resemble the kind of work most people are going to do, esp for humanities skills.
Fast_Bodybuilder_496 t1_j4u779l wrote
The problem with essays for a lot of folks isn't knowing the material, it's adding fluff that sounds nice to get you to your word/page minimum. You can very easily add in the meat of what you want to talk about and have Chatgpt add in the filler to make it "flow", it's amazing for that. Then edit to make it sound better, and voila!
I'll never understand why academic writing poo-poos brevity. I love that a tool exists to rid yourself of the pointless busy work of an essay by writing the truth and asking a machine to expand it
hampo101 t1_j4u3icc wrote
As much as the potential for this to dumb down the population even more is high, software that can compile and structure data for reports would be a complete game changer in my job.
I have a large number of clients at any one time who all need referrals and reports for various things. I spend half my job wasting time by simply having to structure information I already know and have already made a judgement on intellectually.
If an AI could fill referrals with information I already have it would free up so much time for me to engage in the more interpersonal therapeutic work which is by and far the most important work I do and is really the prime thing I learnt with my degree.
The answer will probably be to change how courses are structured and taught. Hone in on the core and cornerstone skills which are essential despite advances in technology and leave all the transitory stuff to be learnt in a specific role.
OccasinalMovieGuy t1_j4u6hfc wrote
Is there really an point to write an essay?
TheSnozzwangler t1_j4uptbc wrote
Yes. It helps you to consolidate and articulate your thoughts in a structured, intelligible way. Writing an essay also allows you to utilize more complex grammatical structures than are usually used in day to day language use, so it can also help develop your grammatical competency in a language.
spespy t1_j5a6ius wrote
Fuck that we’s gottings art
[deleted] t1_j4u7995 wrote
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man-vs-spider t1_j4umcve wrote
One purpose is to gauge how well a student understands a topic. In a history class you could ask a question such as: How did the conditions in Europe contribute to the rise of racism ?
That would be useful essay to have students write. Also one that could probably be easily done in chatGPT or similar
Few-Ad-6322 t1_j4ujyro wrote
Home work should be scrapped anyway so if students are using a bot to get more free time , power to them.
KBDFan42 t1_j4ulvx6 wrote
I use ChatGPT to give me writing prompts, but even then I have to nudge in in the correct direction with a few prompts beforehand.
TroubleSignificant76 t1_j4um6ed wrote
"Any nationality" students using ChatGPT to finish homework
SpaceKappa42 t1_j4uuue2 wrote
Just add a paywall to it already, and a lot of students will stop using it.
Happen-chan t1_j4uvvae wrote
"Dutch students using tools available to the public to complete grind quests."
RobotIcHead t1_j4v1hjz wrote
One my friends got rid of his Alexa despite loving it, his kids had using it to answer homework questions.
hazki t1_j4v5d9y wrote
I feel like this is the perfect time to take a look at our education system and re-evaluate it's fundamentals. AI is not going to go away, on the contrary it will just develop further. Instead of snarling at the new tech and fighting against it, we should steer our attention what can we change in the education itself to the AI technology would have a positive impact on.
LurkingLarry43 t1_j4val8l wrote
I don’t use a lot of undergrad stuff. Grad school was totally different however undergrad? I would have been completely fine using something like this back in the day.
Seth_Imperator t1_j4vdm0w wrote
These kids are already silly anyway and will all be famous tiktokers, don't worth a sweat
[deleted] t1_j4vg7iq wrote
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UnleashedSavage_93 t1_j4vgnzd wrote
The future is now.
Very_Bad_Janet t1_j4vj90b wrote
There is a trend in US education to "flip the classroom " - meaning, to have students listen to lectures and complete reading at home, and then have students complete assignments in the classroom with the teacher available to help and guide. Teachers were finding better results and deeper understanding of the material with this strategy. But I think the adoption of ChatGPT everywhere will eventually make this strategy the norm.
Majestic_Hamster_812 t1_j4vp2m6 wrote
I’m the one that blew it up at our school. At least 100 kids have been caught so far due to my efforts. My favorite part is I’m using a script written by a student (not mine) to catch the cheaters, and now other teachers are copying me 😂
Parking_Attitude_519 OP t1_j4xu1ru wrote
Wait how are you catching them? Doesn't chatGPT give unique responses and what hard evidence do you have?
Majestic_Hamster_812 t1_j4xuix1 wrote
There’s various scripts you can run ChatGTP through. I use GTP-2. Gives a very high likelihood of being AI if it is, and I follow that up with an in person interview. I’ve caught about a dozen of my students using GTP and they all fessed up. Asking them to explain what they wrote usually does the trick.
Edit: I also like GTP zero. I use it as a backup if I want to double check a result.
Parking_Attitude_519 OP t1_j4xw51l wrote
Yeah I did try them out before and GPTzero gives out false positives pretty frequently even saying that my past essays are AI generated even tho I wrote it myself and for GPT 2, it can be easily bypassed by rephrasing a few areas. As for asking students to explain the content in the essay, can't they just read and understand what chatGPT generated before submitting them? I think using these detectors can do more harm than good especially given the amount of false positives they give. But I guess students who use chatGPT to cheat are the types that are too lazy to proofread them so there's that.
Majestic_Hamster_812 t1_j4xwel6 wrote
Haven’t gotten any false positives; been really great so far!
Parking_Attitude_519 OP t1_j4xx1xd wrote
Well I think it's not a good idea to use these sketchy detectors but you do you I guess...
Majestic_Hamster_812 t1_j4y1fip wrote
Hasn’t been sketchy so far, and like I said I have multiple safeguards in place! Thanks for your opinion!
usiraj t1_j4vqogc wrote
So ChatGPT is passing truing test.
FemboysHotAsf t1_j4w2qjp wrote
"Wow, this is wild. I can't believe that students in the Netherlands are using a language model like ChatGPT to finish their homework and that their teachers aren't noticing. I guess technology is advancing faster than our education system can keep up with. On one hand, it's kind of impressive that students have figured out how to use this technology to their advantage. On the other hand, it's a little concerning that they are relying on a machine to do their work for them. I hope this serves as a wake-up call for educators to start incorporating more technology into their classrooms and curriculum so that students are better prepared for the future."
Chemical_Chemist_461 t1_j4xba8j wrote
My thought on this is that, is this really a bad thing? Sure, I grew up in the generation of “you’ll have to use cursive in high school” (SAT only) and “you won’t have a calculator with you all the time” (yes we do). I get teaching stem, as it’s important, but I think it’s time we rethink how we teach as we are going through an interconnected renaissance.
spespy t1_j5a6qio wrote
Time for a paradigm shift
erics75218 t1_j4tnte1 wrote
As if some teacher is so above the law smart. This feels of "You'll never have a calculator with you all the time!". Yeah well we will, and we do so.....
"Write me an essay to help me pass these useless classes" is a great advancement IMO!
Teachers are just scared they have no fucking idea what the hell this even is so they want to go book burning....out of fear, always the same. The Olds get scared, start scrambling to hold onto the past.
ZeeMastermind t1_j4ttkk4 wrote
There is absolutely value in knowing basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. You'll have a calculator with you, but there are times when knowing these things is convenient.
Buying groceries? Knowing basic addition will let you know if you are above or below budget before you get to checkout. I suppose you could pull out a calculator to keep track of this while you shop, but that sounds about as convenient as just getting rid of stuff putting you above budget once you get to the checkout.
Need to do some basic carpentry or home upgrades? Understanding basic geometry will help you make the most out of a single sheet of plywood, so that you're left with less "fiddly bits" and therefore don't have to spend money on a second sheet of plywood. Basic geometry relies on an understanding of algebra and early math concepts. If you do not grasp things like addition or multiplication, it's difficult to apply geometry to group your cuts to maximize use of your plywood.
Need to count things that are organized? Multiplication will help you count things quicker.
Not to mention, even when you get to higher-level math and can use a calculator in class, you'll need to have a solid grasp of these concepts. It's possible that you may not go into a profession that doesn't rely on anything past basic algebra, but there are many occasions in your life that you may need to figure out these things out and it could be inconvenient to type "5 * 7" into a calculator every time you're trying to figure something out.
Why is this an argument? Are you old enough to be on reddit?
[deleted] t1_j4ulzdv wrote
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erics75218 t1_j4tvmiz wrote
Not every essay matters that's all. I assume with or without AI we will still have English class. Because as you correctly point out, fundamentals are key.
But writing an essay on Tom Sawyer may be a thing of the past.
Maybe writing can be better taught via other creative expressions or some such.
Not everyone will be an author. And anyways, that kind of comprehension has always been at the mercy of the home more than the school.
This is a paper tiger that's all I'm saying. Non AI teachings didn't educate you on how to not end your responses with asshole comments. So I'm not sure it matters.
Cheers.
ZeeMastermind t1_j4ux2se wrote
What did you expect? Don't dish it out if you can't take it
[deleted] t1_j4v2189 wrote
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ChuzCuenca t1_j4u0q5a wrote
Sit down Grandpa. This is just a new tool at our disposition. Justa as how education has evolved because we now have the internet education/educators need to upgrade their game accordingly.
This will be the "google" of some generation they would look at how we use internet now and laugh. And let's not be don't cynical here, people won't use this for basic math right now I'm using it for advanced math and learning phyton, is a life saving.
Derivatives, integrals, double derivatives and more being as easy as doing divisions in the calculator means you can spend more time being sure your education is not meaningless.
eras t1_j4uiz5p wrote
I wonder though has education evolved so that people nowadays are better in math with help of calculators than before?
I believe it's the opposite. Maybe not due to calculators, but I seriously doubt they have helped to make things better.
EclecticKant t1_j4umzjw wrote
Every tool that automates a task reduces the skill that students learn. Calculators reduced the average ability of a student to do algebraic calculations without support, this "sacrifice" has been considered worth it because the time saved from not practicing calculations has been used to understand more math concepts. But is the ability to write essays, to answer complex/abstract questions, to understand and summarize informations and to draw conclusions from those informations something we are willing to sacrifice? And if so, what abilities are we giving instead to our students?
There is also the option to not use ai tools at school/university, just like programmable calculators have not substituted scientific calculators
ElemLight t1_j4txlqe wrote
If there was a ChatGPT in my time, i would have used it too for homework.
But it didn't, so i never did homework.
Still graduated with a B overall, homework is just such an overrated with.
Even when banning ChatGPT for exams, this doesn't fix the really bad system of short term learning for tests and exams that students learn to do in order to keep the pace up with the current school systems.
The education system has way bigger concerns than students using ChatGPT for their homework (homework itself is completely useless)