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This feels like selection bias.

There are good and bad of both.

With the right people behind any show, it'll always be great. Andor Is a prime example.

I didn't hate the wheel of time, but rings of power is definitely awful. There really haven't been very many good fantasy series(or movies, for that matter, it's just down to the viewer to forgive the bad) ever, let alone at one time. If you want good fantasy you basically have to read.

Seems that way. Lots of great fantasy out there besides Tolkien and Martin.

Suggest some. I'm a nerd.

Wheel of Time was good though.

Brandon Sanderson

Any shows? I don't read novels that much.

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. A tad depressing. The Belgariad. Lots of humor.

I think op means there's a lot of existing ip that could be used to make new content.

The thing that set HotD/GoT apart is that they aren't archetypal fantasy. They were pure dramas that just happened to take place in a fantasy setting. Dragons are just biological creatures that happen to exist in their world but not ours. People using magic pop up rarely, but the show never dwells on it. The shows are mainly about medieval politics and characters sitting across the table talking to each other.

Whereas other fantasy properties rely on the idea of 'wizards waving their hands to make glowy clouds appear' being a core trait of some main characters. Those are the ones that seem to struggle. I almost feel like no one has really figured out how to make that mechanic really feel good on screen yet.

I can't think of a single one recently that was great, sadly.

I think the medium I most enjoyed fantasy through recently, apart from books, was Graphic Audio.

LeGuin. EARTHSEA.

Alas. It was not good enough to draw my affection.

I feel like it’s more of a saturation issue.

I'd guess that it boils down to the studios trying to cash in on what they think is popular instead of actually liking what they're creating.

House of the Dragon works because it has so few magical elements in it. It has dragons and that's basically it. The rest is just a medieval type family drama saga. Hard to mess up if you keep it as simple as possible like they do here.

The problem with modern fantasy shows is that they almost never set up the rules upfront and at the same time they throw in as many magical elements as possible to make their series stand out without setting up the rules on how everything works. At most, they go the lazy route and do tropes as in, "There are elves in this world. You know else, right? Pointy ears. Fast. Sleek. Yep. That's it to them." That's not world building. That is a paper thin set up of lazy tropes trying to pass themselves off as rules. And you can't do that with fantasy. People need to know what to expect in this universe. What creatures are in it. What is the hierarchy of them. What can magic do here. What can't it do.

Basically, it's work. Lots of work. That's one of the reasons why if you look at fantasy novels, they are usually so thick, they can double as a booster seat and almost always have a glossary of terms in the back and sometimes even a map in the front.

But modern television writers don't want to do this work. So, they end up with bad series that looks like every other bad fantasy series. Like one giant mud puddle.

The reason why sci-fi series don't have this problem is because, well, the rules for the most part are already written out. It's called science. Hence, science fiction. People already know what can and can't be done because most people have a basic understanding of science. They understand the "speed of light" is fast. That people can't survive in the cold of space without the right equipment. That aliens aren't going to have the same biology as humans even if they look exactly like a human. That time is linear. That if you go back in time and mess with it, that will lead something changing in the future. Nothing needs to be spelled out up front because school has already told them what they need to know.

Again, you can't do that with fantasy because there are no universal rules across the genre. What may work in one series, may no apply in another series.

If that's the case, I think I should gain my share of fantasy through the books too.

I really have to admit that I stopped reading a lot of fantasy. Piers Anthony, almost anything, but especially Xanth.

Black company, tanith lee if you like xanth, moorcock, lieber, all the OG stuff. And Zelazny.

There is a huge demand for shows and not enough experienced writers to fill the demand. For fantasy in particular, GOT finishing created a power vacuum for the next big fantasy show. Because studios were worried that someone else would beat them to the punch, they rushed production and gave the show to writers who didn’t have the experience to manage projects of that size. The streaming model also doesn’t reward quality as much as quantity (compared to other models)

I like Piers Anthony. He's still alive, and responds to emails via an aide.

Exactly. In these stories, magic doesn't dictate the end results often. It can't be the dominating factor because when it is the dominating factor, the story is boring and bland. Nobody in the house of dragons has unlimited power. Everyone is held in check by something. It makes the story more compelling. Each character also has flaws, to go with their redeeming qualities.

I did NOT know that. How lovely!

Glen Cook, Stephen Erikson, China Mieville, R Scott Bakker.

I am not sure I agree with the argument about streaming (although I agree with the rest). Although there are tons of bad shows on streaming services, I think its still better than Network TV.

I also think that fantasy shows that are supposed to be taken absolutely seriously are almost inherently going to fall flat on their face. Playing fantasy games there are few if any that don't have a tongue in cheek nature at some point. Also, I want to see a show about orcs, living and growing up in an orc village, that gets taken over by the evil overlord and they are forced to go fight humans in a human realm alongside weird little goblins and shit. I've seen the group of heroes fight monsters a thousand times, the formula has been done to death and while it is fun to roleplay occasionally, it is less fun to watch when better media has already done it.

Authors do not want their stories slaughtered by craptastic writing and less-than-stellar (Z-list) actors and directors.

>Also, I want to see a show about orcs, living and growing up in an orc village, that gets taken over by the evil overlord and they are forced to go fight humans in a human realm

Warcraft does exactly that. Unfortunately the movie suffers from the same type of problems that plague many productions, but it does some things well. Orc culture, particularly Durotan, is handled well. And outside the movies, there is plenty of other storytelling (books/games) that do it well. It's a shame that the movie didn't perform well enough to get sequels.

The fundamental issues:

• The writers aren't fantasy writers/authors and don't understand the genre;
• The directors aren't fantasy fans and don't understand the genre.

I’ve tried to complete Eye Of The World for five years now and it is so boring. For whatever reason the show clicked though, so I’m with you.

I don't think a lot of High Fantasy translates to the screen well without a substantial budget, so not are being made. But I think are a ton of good fantasy series out there. Technically, you could include the sci-fi shows OP mentioned, since it's a sub-genre of fantasy, but others I think worth mentioning would be Good Omens, Sandman, His Dark Materials, among others. Stranger Things is easily on a top fantasy shows list too.

Ironically.magic(of the type we commonly think of anyway) is about as prevalent in the GOT universe as Lord of the Rings

Dragon Prince, Wednesday and Arcane are three other shows that come to mind that fit in the fantasy universe and are pretty popular .

Someone else mentioned his dark materials, sandman and stranger things as well

Yeah, there’s a lot of genre blending around fantasy. Like Star Wars is a mix of sci-fi and fantasy. As is a lot of superhero stuff, where you have science heroes existing right alongside actual gods.

I think what OP is talking about his Tolkien-style medieval fantasy, which is very hard to do well because it costs so much. Also if you’re adapting a book, there’s always a section of die-hard fans out there who will absolutely crucify you if you get things wrong. Presumably that makes studios nervous.

Ahem, Xena Warrior Princess & the Action Pack would disagree.

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They are just trying to cash in on what they think is a trend

Fantasy is still trying to find its footing in Hollywood. Most of Hollywood doesn't understand the core identity and interests of viewers who would like Fantasy.

It’s because fantasy doesn’t often attract the best writers/creators. Really good writers want to write the next Godfather, not a fantasy story with elves and goblins and green people and flying horses in mythical lands.

“But plenty of people write fantasy.”

Yeah, but you don’t have to be a good writer to write a fantasy story. You just need to write a fun fantasy story that appeals to fantasy fans.

Sounds highbrow, but it’s true. The most talented screen writers — established and aspiring — are not trying to get into fantasy.

The only reason fantasy stories are made these days is because of established IP (in other words, a built in audience, in other words, guaranteed money). Since there’s a built in audience, there’s less of a desire to appeal to non-fantasy fans. Therefore, shittier standards.

The fantasy films or shows that do it well don’t focus on the fantasy. It’s more about the plot and characters. They just happen to be set in a fantasy world.

Fact is, fantasy may appeal to a pretty high number of consumers, but it does not appeal to artists, writers, and filmmakers to the same degree. So the content is often little more than a lazily cobbled together cash grab to exploit already existing fantasy fans of a story who will watch literally anything because it’s fantasy.

Sci-Fi has largely escaped this trap. Why, I don’t entirely know. Probably because there’s still a sensed future realism (like, “we could be heading towards a Bladerunner reality”). Fantasy is fantasy. But sci-fi is still possible, and that allows for appealing stories and timelines and characters.

If you want to do it well, you need to avoid focusing on the fantasy and focus on the people and story. That’s why Andor is so successful (and why Alien, Terminator, Bladerunner, etc. were so beloved). They don’t focus on the sci-fi aspects of the world as the primary selling point. They focus on the characters and story. The worlds are just added bonuses of fun and intrigue.

Andor, in the end, could just as easily be a story set in revolutionary France or Cuba with real historical figures. I often times forgot that Andor was a sci-fi while watching it. Whereas most fantasy stories constantly scream “THIS IS A FANTASY LOOK HOW FANTASTICAL WE ARE!”

Fantasy struggles with this. It focuses so much on the world and the creatures and design and CGI that it’s hard to give a shit if you’re not a fantasy fan. And most highly talented current and aspiring artists are simply not fantasy fans.

Almost all film and television fantasy ever made, stretching back decades, is poor. There's nothing new about this.

they're hiring activists as writers. They don't like the source material. Eventually this practice will end when it costs them money and they're forced to change. Unfortunately, some of these IPs, like Wheel of Time, will only ever get one chance at this so we're screwed

Sturgeon’s Law: 90% of everything is crap.

>Sci-Fi has largely escaped this trap. Why, I don’t entirely know. Probably because there’s still a sensed future realism (like, “we could be heading towards a Bladerunner reality”). Fantasy is fantasy.

Science fiction has often been an exercise in imagining the future to comment on the present (or on the general human condition). It is therefore more likely to connect with the average person, as an interesting thought exercise.

Fantasy has a lot less of that. It tends to be more worldbuilding for its own sake.

Yeah that’s what I meant by saying that they’re still grounded in realism.

Fantasy authors are the Z-list of the writing world.

Are they any worse than other shows?

There are a bunch of crappy cop shows and a few good cop shows

A lot of crappy fantasy shows and a few good ones

Making good shows must be, I dunno, very difficult or something, because clearly someone getting paid to work insane hours on a project isn’t trying deliberately hard to make a crappy show.

How are the writers for Wheel of time activists?

I’m going to get downvoted for this probably but one of the main things is most of these newer ones are more focused on the forcing some agenda with as much diversity as possible and lgbt stuff than having a good story and acting.

And if anything, there are currently more good fantasy shows than there have ever been, if only because there are so many more of them (and because some of them are getting much higher budgets, allowing more time and effort to be put into them).

a lot of fantasy books are fucking dreadful, so I have exceedingly low expectations when one becomes a show. Until the Mistborn trilogy or Prince of Thorns get adapted into shows I'm done with most fantasy shows.

His Dark Materials is great though. I'd say that and House of the Dragon are standouts for live action.

A lot of modern fantasies are based on young adult fiction. And while those are popular with young adults there is the reason why this category is separate from just regular ( adult) fiction.

(I don’t want to offend any young readers who are very passionate about young adult fantasy novels. I was young adult at some point too and I loved this type of books myself)

Terry Pratchett is amazing fantasy writer.

You mean to tell me that Amazon hunting for headlines with their 'all female directors for season 2' Rings of Power announcement was due to agenda?

🤷‍♂️ just kinda cringe. I miss back when movies and shows were actually good and exciting.

I really enjoyed Rings of Power. I'd actually cite it and Stranger Things Season 4 as shows that proved that TV can tell these rich, cinematic stories better than the movie industry can.

I thought House of the Dragon was pretty uneven, as the pre-time jump part was really rough.

this applies to lord of the rings too. in jacksons first trilogy, gandalf uses magic like all of 3 times and he generally just uses it to start a fire or shine a bright light, or talk to a butterfly(i dont remember exactly). gandalf spends most of the trilogy using diplomacy to bring nations and factions into aragorns alliance against sauron so that the white city and the rohirrim can be saved, which also serves the purpose of distracting saurons focus from frodo. this politicking is infinitly more interesting than gandalf mowing down rows of orcs with flashy magic, ala scarlet witch vs kamar taj.

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Wheel of Time was much much worse for most of us that read the book. It was an abomination.

David Eddings! His early stuff is great. I kind of lost interest when it became "David and Leigh Eddings" though. Everyone was coupled up and using too many pet names.

It's because everyone is trying to cash in on Game of Thrones after it ended. Supply and demand. Same thing happened after Star Wars hit it big in 77.

I read the books. It wasn't great, but it wasn't as bad as rings of power. My only real gripe was Lan not teaching rand to fight, I thought the weaving was fairly well executed.

I really liked that movie despite its flaws. I have no idea what warcraft is or their lore but despite the dialogue or plot flaws I was still engrossed in the movie till the end and wanted to know more about their fictional lore. Like the whole orc family lives and what the orc shaman dude wanted to do. Whenever warcraft is mentioned I keep thinking that the setting had so much potential and if there would be a sequel.

I'm still upset Netflix canceled The Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance after one season. One of my favorite recent fantasy shows.

We like fantasy or Sci fi cause it's different. These new shows cram real world politics and issues in with a hammer, instead of allegory.

>I also think that fantasy shows that are supposed to be taken absolutely seriously are almost inherently going to fall flat on their face.

Game Of Thrones/House Of The Dragon and LOTR all take themselves very seriously though?

They don't respect the material.

And there is going to be a new wave of anime adaptations coming to Netflix after the cowboy bebop blunder... live action yuyu Hakusho, live action my hero academia, live action one piece... if show runners understand them they would understand that they aren't good for live action adaptations unless you drastically change their visuals and plots, which comes with a high risk of disappointing fan backlash.

The elves still look like human, bc they have sharp ears dont make them look like elves.

They dont try harder to make audience believes they are elves

Atleast yuyu live action still made by Japanese, and japan it self still suck for making live action, except reruni kenshin.

If i were work on hollywood for 10 year, i will make zoids live action and stick to the source material, bc i watch it and love it.

Not like some of those writer/director who never what anime at all. I bet who the one helm my hero academia live action never watch the anime or read manga. He even fuck up kanobi

If I am netflix, I'd adapt Pluto, monster and 20th century boys. They can even make a western version of 20th century Boys set in some small mid west town.

What is pluto.?

I even still dont undertand where the giant robot come from in 20th century boys and did his friend already plan the world domination from he still kid?

Game of Thrones. Not in the YA category. The Hobbit is, but not Lord of The Rings. Neither is "Wheel of Time." Also, "The Witcher" started out as a short story in a fantasy magazine.

Pluto also from the same Manga writer as 20th century boys. It's kinda like blade runner. A cyborg tries to solve a murder mystery. Got a really cool setting. And netflix can do a diversity cast that makes sense here.

It's not that long. Def worth reading!

I like a lot of them.

Right!. The only thing that separates Elves from humans is pointy and sharp eyes that's all.

I would say because nothing we have here is remotely original.

Everything is a sequel, reboot, spinoff or ripoff of something else. All of which seem to be made more poorly than their predecessors. Blame the studios for only wanting the most safe, numbers pumping projects they can find.

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I said a lot not all. You listed exceptions ignoring numerous young adult fantasies adaptations like Shadow and bone , Discovery of witches, The Magicians, Irregulars, this is only a tiny sample.

>Shadow and bone , Discovery of witches, The Magicians, Irregula

I don't know what any of those are, except the magicians. And I read part of the first book. You clearly don't understand the terms you are abusing. "Young adult literature" means books mean for teens. Not actual youngish-adults. Not people in their twenties. Also, you don't understand the word 'exception'.

This is international sub. Just because in your country you think those are words that had to be used this way doesn’t mean it everyone else is using it the same. But sure I can correct my original statement

“A lot of modern adaptations are based on books written for adult-ish people”

The point is still the same just replace “young adult fantasies” with more accurate description you suggested

Then your earlier post makes no sense. Writers on a show based on a child's book series, or a teen book series don't have to handicap themselves, but they often do. While writers for a show based on adult fiction have no such constraints.

You misunderstood my post.

When I listened you examples of fiction I am ( edit) talking about, you said that fiction belongs in the category of “young-ish”

For this category to exist, it means that it is the most popular/tailored to very specific category of people. That also means that adults would not find this type of fiction appealing. Otherwise it would be just adult fiction.

My kids now at the age when they cooled down/outdrew storytelling, drama, dialogues and characters that are typical for adult-is fiction. The same happened to me many many years ago.

It was definitely shit. But divorce both shows from their lore and just look at the stories. ROP was shitter. But we really are just looking at different levels of shit.

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