Comments

You must log in or register to comment.

No_Judge_3817 t1_j15hjij wrote

Amazing that "immediately expel a student who stabbed another student" is somehow controversial

92

hce692 t1_j16p6zy wrote

It doesn’t say anything remotely close to that in this article?? What are you talking about

13

pillbinge t1_j17s438 wrote

There was a big to-do about some people complaining to the school committee about expelling the student, and the school committee said they couldn't comment on any specific actions. Expulsion isn't controversial, but people want to know it happened. The law prevents anyone for the state saying that. People will talk, obviously, and they're allowed to, but this may be in relation to that.

7

[deleted] t1_j15jm3a wrote

[deleted]

3

BsFan t1_j15s8pl wrote

And how much is this shithead preventing others from learning? I say take him out and let others who don't stab people learn more.

39

rocco45 t1_j15xin6 wrote

As a teacher, this is one of my biggest gripes. We have students with behavioral problems (not this extreme) that require near constant levels of support. I get wanting a less restrictive environment, but the conversation is always about the student with the problems, never about the other students negatively effected.

27

Effective_Golf_3311 t1_j16jrww wrote

My father (principal of nearly 15 years) said his crowning achievement was separating the shithead kids from the good kids and raising test scores by some insane amount.

Had to be done slowly and in a way that raised no eyebrows. But he did it and the good/decent/on the border kids made out huge and set all sorts of records for SATs/ACTs as well as college attendance and the shitty kids are doing whatever now. They got the same classes but they chose to do nothing and are now dealing with those repercussions of their choices

11

[deleted] t1_j16mev0 wrote

[deleted]

−2

Effective_Golf_3311 t1_j16n6qh wrote

No, there was no profiling involved. They made their decisions and chose their paths. He always felt for them but he still never stopped trying to show them the right way despite what their parents had taught them. He once gave a kid his own leather belt when he told the kid he’d be suspended for having sagging pants and the kid began to cry. He asked why he cried and he said he had been asking his parents for a belt for a long time but they couldn’t afford one. So my dad gave him his.

Lo and behold this kid suddenly found a role model in my father and used to show up 2 hours prior to school (when my dad showed for work) and would stay an hour late just to be a gopher and learn life lessons.

By senior year he was earning grades that were going to get him in to college. Walked across the stage wearing the same belt he was gifted 3 years prior.

2

Cameron_james t1_j16p3vc wrote

> I get wanting a less restrictive environment, but the conversation is always about the student with the problems, never about the other students negatively effected

It's $$$. School systems could send the children who exhibit violence - the ones who stab, the ones who throw chairs, the ones who grab others by the throat - to alternative schools with supportive staff who are experts in this field. But it costs more so they roll the dice that there won't be too many Colleen Ritzers or student victims.

We want amazing, incredible schools, yet we want low, low taxes. We want amazing public transportation and infrastructure for private transportation, yet we want low, low taxes. We want Mass and Cass to be safe and homeless free, yet we want low, low taxes. Etc, etc, etc...

We want an incredible society that runs smoothly, yet we half-ass everything.

3

Chippopotanuse t1_j184pzw wrote

Yes this does cost money.

And yes, lots of folks are misers and losers who aren’t willing to find schools properly to deal with the problem kids.

But - Mass did just vote for a 9% surtax on incomes over $1m to raise a few billion for more education funding.

1

Cameron_james t1_j18eg33 wrote

If the legislature holds current budget levels and ADDS that money in, we can attack some of these therapeutic and socioeconomic needs. I'm still cautious that it becomes new money in to maintain budget levels.

1

[deleted] t1_j15o3qb wrote

[deleted]

28

pdegner3 t1_j165qup wrote

Totally, if you stab someone (intentionally), you should be in jail.

7

Diegos_kitchen t1_j1767cz wrote

If you read the links in the article, this kid was taken into custody but police are not commenting on what they plan to charge them with. I imagine, partly due to laws preventing the criminal record of minors being made public information. Just guessing at that last part though.

5

Effective_Golf_3311 t1_j16k4if wrote

Not in 2022! Now you just get asked nicely not to. And if you do it again? We will ask you sternly. A third time? We’re gonna tell your parents!!!

We had a 17 year old steal nearly 85 cars and do a couple car jackings. He did another carjacking a week after turning 18 and he’s doing a 5 year bid.

1

Chippopotanuse t1_j184v2j wrote

I’m gonna have to agree with you.

Stabbing/shooting someone is a line that everyone knows you don’t cross.

It’s not a push, a shove, or even a punch.

You stab someone, or you pull a gun in school…that ought to always be your last day in any public school setting.

2

jvpewster t1_j16dusi wrote

Yeah america should double down on how it differs from every safe Western democracy. It’s clearly born out fantastic results.

0

Effective_Golf_3311 t1_j16ka8m wrote

Is this common in those areas? Are they shanking the shit out of each other over there in those homogeneous relatively tiny nations with almost zero similarities to the United States?

5

itsonlyastrongbuzz t1_j15qlc3 wrote

>Anytime you take a person out of the learning environment.

They are taken out of “a” learning environment, not all learning environments.

20

Homerpaintbucket t1_j16ixmo wrote

I'm a teacher and what you said is a crock of shit. If you expel a student they're sent to a different school. In a situation like this they'll be sent to somewhere with more intensive behavioral systems. I've worked at schools that had admin that resisted consequences and schools that had admins that would set limits. The schools with no consequences are madhouses. You can't teach in that situation. Students can't learn in a situation like that.

8

beoheed t1_j16brdo wrote

Ummmm, not how that works. If a student is creating a learning environment that is actively unsafe for others, they can and will be removed. The laws are very clear and what is allowed and not allowed and what services are required.

Source: I have had students no longer in my class after being excluded from school for violence (they were provided tutoring), tutored students who were excluded from schools, and attended meetings regarding the legality of students exclusion from schools.

4

[deleted] t1_j16eie8 wrote

[deleted]

−2

beoheed t1_j16jats wrote

Controversy lies in so many places in society. For some the earth’s status as an oblate spheroid is controversial. When we lend the air of “controversy” to the arguments of those who hold little to no stake in something we are being disingenuous.

I could posit that all sorts of things about which I have little stake or expertise are controversial, but that would not make them so to those with experience in the matter.

Is the use of exclusion in school discipline controversial for a whole breadth and depth of reasons? Sure is. Is the immediate exclusion of a student if that “student’s continued presence in school would pose a specific, documentable concern about the infliction of serious bodily injury or other serious harm upon another person while in school.” controversial? Nope. In fact that quote is straight out of the latest update to MA’s regulations on school exclusion, one’s which lean heavily on non-exclusionary discipline. As an educator and someone who wants what is best for my students, they (and I!) should not be forced to try to learn (or teach!) in the presence of someone who poses a specific risk of violence.

2

[deleted] t1_j16jw69 wrote

[deleted]

0

beoheed t1_j16kp8b wrote

Sweet Jesus did you read the first two paragraphs!? You would be standing there at the trial of Galileo going, “dude we get it, but those guys keep yammering on about geocentrism, the controversy is real!”

2

[deleted] t1_j16limp wrote

[deleted]

−1

beoheed t1_j16mbyc wrote

Your pedantry is astounding. Your ability to contextualize less so.

2

Cameron_james t1_j15kyf5 wrote

I couldn't find that quote in the article. So, I'm unsure where it's quoted from.

0

Swayz t1_j15xm3a wrote

So you would let a young Jeffery Dahmer type stay in class after he tries to eat a student? Would it be a call for concern for you if he’s not learning? Are you alright?

−2

RhaenyrasUncle t1_j18ds23 wrote

I mean, context is key.

And in today's "zero-tolerance" culture, context is often overlooked.

2

lurkingonya t1_j16j214 wrote

“She said the city is working to get the ball rolling on a culture and climate study as one way to address the issue.” Yes i’m sure that’s what everyone wants to hear. Good god

56

AnthoZero t1_j16x808 wrote

school administrators are so desperately out of touch with how schools work that they do dumb shit like this survey. a girl did blackface when i was in high school and went viral and they showed us an “motivational video” during an assembly in response. i’m not surprised teachers are quitting, dumb shit like this wouldn’t make me want to work anywhere.

35

lurkingonya t1_j1axdac wrote

I think they lack the nuance needed to implement their vision of the organization in a pragmatic, effective way. I think there is a divide between the teachers and administration. Fearing the parents’ rage in PTA meetings, administrators push impractical, weak reprimands for violence, and teachers, fearing for their physical safety from the students allow things to occur so as to not fall victim to the unhinged students

2

Cameron_james t1_j16q6nq wrote

> a culture and climate study

Administrations love a good "study" as a way to push off what needs to be done as long as possible. Got to get all the stakeholders points of view, right?

25

pillbinge t1_j17rygv wrote

Do admin love studies? I'm not sure you can really claim that. You need to do a study before you can say that.

13

Cameron_james t1_j18hw17 wrote

Then we can do a deep data dive and realize our method had flaws, so a second, more comprehensive study is needed next year.

4

SmashRadish t1_j16r94z wrote

Not sure you want their job right now dude, but they need all the help they can get. You may want to send them an open letter.

0

lurkingonya t1_j19hlxm wrote

This has been an ongoing problem. School administrators are in a tough spot yes of course but this is literally what they are there for. To administrate the school system in a way that allows for safe learning conditions. Safety is an absolute fundamental and should be one of the first focuses. If we can’t keep them safe, how can we expect children to actually retain any information? But no, they’d prefer to let things slide and just tough it out until the problem kids and their victims graduate and then the cycle begins anew

3

Cameron_james t1_j15kugp wrote

There's a good quote: "She added: 'I think you’d all rather listen to our concerns than attend our funerals.' "

Time for a die-in in the faculty parking lot at the end of the school day.

49

Diegos_kitchen t1_j16mx05 wrote

It seems that the student who was stabbed, thankfully, suffered only a "minor chest injury" and the student who did the stabbing was immediately taken into custody and the police won't remark on the charges which, I'd guess, is due to laws protecting children from having their criminal records exposed publicly? Maybe a lawyer could confirm.

It seems everyone in this thread is assuming that the stabber was just allowed to go back to class and the police weren't involved, but like, when someone gets stabbed, the police get involved. I don't see anything about the stabber getting released from custody and/or returning to class in this article or any of the ones linked from it.

18

Marcusaralius76 t1_j17304r wrote

I think the primary issue at hand is that someone got stabbed at school.

13

Diegos_kitchen t1_j175l82 wrote

I would guess that that's the primary issue that the students and parents are talking about, yes.

However the top comment chain here on reddit is about what outrageous it is to not punish the kid and "this is what happens when you defund police", which is completely unfounded outrage based on OP's link because the kid was, in fact, taken into custody by the police.

12

Michelanvalo t1_j16eygq wrote

The students reference a pattern of violence but the article is sparse on details of what that means. Does anyone know what's going on at Medford schools?

28

revane t1_j183o3u wrote

I'd imagine the same thing that's going on at most high schools... constant fighting in the hallways. At the school I work at on the south shore, we have fights almost every day. It's exhausting, like the whole school is in a pressure cooker waiting for something to trigger an even bigger explosion.

22

Chippopotanuse t1_j184huh wrote

I’m just curious - who is causing the fights every day where you work?

  • Is it random kids who are otherwise great students with no behavior issues?

  • or is it a small subset of problem kids who are difficult to manage?

7

revane t1_j1869c5 wrote

Little of both at my school. We definitely have a core group of kids that are constantly wandering in the hallway, cutting class, and meeting up to fight, but there's also been a lot of random kids who are normally fine that get involved. It used to be that fights would be over big issues that bubble over in a planned way ("meet me at the flagpole/bleachers/parking lot" type fights) but it seems like now, these fights are breaking out are over basically nothing and are instant reaction kind of fights - like fighting is first response, plan A when someone feels disrespected even in a small way instead of "resolving" an ongoing feud (does that make any sense lol)

16

Chippopotanuse t1_j186v6v wrote

Interesting.

Do you think the pandemic and isolation/home-schooling made kids less able to navigate social conflict?

6

revane t1_j18l1bb wrote

I think that's definitely partly to blame- kids in high school now missed out on in person middle school, which is one of the most important ages with social development, especially around mature conflict resolution. That combined with how limited schools are with what we're allowed to do to discipline misbehavior has a LOT of kids feeling like they can do whatever they want and not have any real consequences (and for the most part, they're right).

12

[deleted] t1_j18y6g7 wrote

[deleted]

11

Chippopotanuse t1_j18yr8a wrote

This was a tough read. But it seems very much in-line with what folks who work in schools are saying.

I agree that the school systems need help. What do you think would make a positive impact? What is needed to change things for the better at this point?

8

SirDaedra t1_j19ba9e wrote

Schools have rightfully been concerned about contributing to the prison to school pipeline but they have veered completely to the other end of the spectrum where there is no accountability whatsoever for students. It’s an anything goes environment. Kids are not dumb, they know there are no consequences.

As a former teacher in two urban school districts (quit my job earlier this year), students who were real hazards to others were constantly let off the hook. One student would constantly sexually harass other female students; he would touch them and corner them if he ever found them in a hallway or room alone. The most that was ever done was a couple days of in-school suspension and then he is back to the classroom afterwards.

We have created a perverse system of incentives for schools. The feds look at suspension data, especially based on race and IEO status. Principals have gotten around this by deciding not to suspend anyone at all. Everything falls on the teacher’s shoulders to handle.

Similarly, my experience has been that we have over-interpreted “least restrictive environment” for students to mean that every student should be placed in a general education without really addressing the issues at hand. “Oh hey Mr. History Teacher, here is this student who we are transferring to your class because he was physical with a student in his previous class. Anytime he needs a break, call the counselor and social worker. Just make sure you don’t call too much or it’s going to be marked as needs improvement on your evaluation.”

And I am not saying that everyone needs to be suspended. To be honest, I’m not sure that solves much of anything. But I do think, if we are going to try this, we need to fully fund schools so they can get appropriate levels of staffing for counselors and crisis responders. I do think there is a happy medium where we are not excluding kids (although there are some who I think will benefit from a separate placement) from their peers, but also making sure that students with severe behavioral needs are getting the support they need.

5

fakecrimesleep t1_j19rz2s wrote

Did you forget about the million+ people that died? Little Johnny can go to therapy for his anger issues. But you can’t bring back the dead

2

RhaenyrasUncle t1_j18e5lq wrote

If its anything like my experience going to school in dorchester, its a neighborhood thing. Kids from Neighborhood A fight kids from Neighborhood B, fight kids from Neighborhood C, etc.

2

Photog1981 t1_j164d2v wrote

I know someone who teaches at Medford high school. A couple times last year, students would interrupt her class/lesson to taunt someone out to fight.

22

RhaenyrasUncle t1_j18efu1 wrote

You have a kid with no father nor male father figure...a mother who works 2-3 jobs and is never home...he gets in trouble at school, what does he have to fear?

He gets arrested? Immediately adds to his clout. Who is going to discipline him? Who does he have to fear?

0

fakecrimesleep t1_j19sbwa wrote

There are plenty of kids from well off families that do stupid, violent shit too. Enough with the fuckin stereotypes

−6

RhaenyrasUncle t1_j19sopa wrote

Well off families don't send their kids to Medford High.

6

fakecrimesleep t1_j1c1haz wrote

The demographics of Medford are changing pretty rapidly toward higher income people

−2

crazy_eric t1_j17nfny wrote

Why do parents and students always blame the school instead of themselves? It's the students causing an unsafe learning environment not the school/teachers.

17

Diazigy t1_j170xup wrote

As a former resident, my friend's daughter goes to Medford High School. She was terrified for her and her daughter. She saw the video and multiple other kids recordin it on their phones. IMHO stabbing someone in the chest should always be attempted murder, but justice and punishment should be applied based on age and other conditions.

16

symonym7 t1_j18ccsz wrote

Strip away teachers’ capacity to affect discipline for lower level offenses and kids - being kids - will keep pushing the boundaries until someone gets stabbed.

5

spedmunki t1_j168q42 wrote

I’m sure more studies and committees will find it’s an equity issue

3

Cost_Additional t1_j191h45 wrote

Medford is in shambles on the gov level. It's unreal what has happened in that city

3

powsandwich t1_j1bl1pi wrote

And yet the real estate is crazy there because it’s a “safe” town 😉

2

Conan776 t1_j15opev wrote

How many stabbings have they had?

2

DooceBigalo t1_j15s3mv wrote

how many is too many?

21

Conan776 t1_j16j2j5 wrote

I just don't understand what pattern of handling violence is that they are complaining about. Knowing how each of the various stabbings has been handled would provide more insight, but the article doesn't go into that.

0

Effective_Golf_3311 t1_j16kj6o wrote

There have probably been dozens of fights over past year leading up this involving the same group. This stabbing doesn’t happen in a vacuum and probably isn’t a surprise to anyone involved.

14

kortnman t1_j18nnjh wrote

Mayor: isolated incident (I'm just gonna lie as long as I can to keep my job)

2

Cameron_james t1_j16ph6t wrote

Well, we used to have newspaper staffs that would fight to get more of that story, yet now we have "The Patch."

7

fakecrimesleep t1_j19rk75 wrote

This usually just results in more cops in schools and kids being treated like prisoners. Enjoy the metal detectors and random searches kiddos

0

Pyroechidna1 t1_j19a47x wrote

Remember kids, when violence threatens, you do not call Shanti Sena, you become Shanti Sena

−1

CLS4L t1_j15obh1 wrote

Stoping bullies is not on their job description

−18

ohhgrrl t1_j15tt6v wrote

If a bully is committing violence it is absolutely in the job description for adult staff to stop it.

16

Effective_Golf_3311 t1_j16knia wrote

I got suspended for a week for stopping a fight by hugging the kid that was stomping on a near unconscious kid, so that was the end of my teaching career.

4

Bearget0 t1_j18cd3w wrote

Given your history of shit takes on just about every topic, we can all be glad you're not teaching. :)

−1

Effective_Golf_3311 t1_j18fqrn wrote

Yeah teaching to the test sucked and I felt like I was doing the youth a disservice… and my feelings were apparently correct!

Plus I couldn’t fathom demanding to teach through a screen and pretending I was on the right side of history.

0

RhaenyrasUncle t1_j18entw wrote

Zero-tolerance policies often tie the hands of teachers/adults from even touching students on the shoulder to pull them away from a fight.

Even more reason why we should hire armed teachers who are trained police officers and thus exempt from these zero-tolerance policies.

−4

kortnman t1_j18oh0b wrote

Teachers cannot do this. They are not the instrument deemed appropriate to legally deal with crime. Police are needed. Arrest and expel the violent kids. Put them in jail or reform school or whatever. It's fair, and it will really improve the school in every way.

1

ohhgrrl t1_j1943cw wrote

Tell me you’ve never been a teacher without telling me you’ve never been a teacher.

1

bittlelum t1_j1a6ox2 wrote

I don't know why you want to see more kids shot to death in school.

1

RhaenyrasUncle t1_j1a6tt8 wrote

There would be less kids shot in schools, with increased police presence.

1

bittlelum t1_j1cwvis wrote

Despite all the evidence to the contrary?

1

Cameron_james t1_j16q0ga wrote

There's no "job description" for teaching. It's just whatever the new thing is you are supposed to do plus all the old things. Whose got a new acronym? We'll be doing it in a month if Newton or Lexington tries it first. Doesn't even have to work, just has to be something admin can check off as "done/did/tried" on the 5-year plan.

However, anti-bullying regulations have been a law in MA and faculty do have to deal with it.

3

lurkingonya t1_j16jaqi wrote

Wrong. It is their responsibility to maintain a safe learning environmnet. The teachers are afraid of the children because the mindset is in fact that juveniles can do anything, and teachers do nothing. And the parents of these bullies should also be held responsible. What are they doing about it? Has there been a clear effort for behavior modification? Or are they simply encouraging these scourging children?

2

Fumquat t1_j16ru89 wrote

Not just the mindset, it’s policies and enforced rules. Kid punches teacher = temporary consequences. Teacher safely restrains or even touches the wrong violent kid = career over.

Requiring a hands-off approach protects the district from paying out workman’s comp claims for staff injuries and protects from lawsuits when a kid with involved parents is handled roughly. Besides, shit kids are plentiful while licensed educators are scarce. Best not take unnecessary risks and leave 180 students suddenly without a science teacher, over a fight that would have ended one way or another. That’s the thinking.

6

frankybling t1_j15paxe wrote

A walk out during mid term exams? Not saying they had a good reason or not… but students finding a way to walk out two days before a winter break? I’m shocked!

−26

SmashRadish t1_j16rdpj wrote

Dude, they could cut class any day. When they cut class together it’s poetic if not self-serving. But after stealing, cutting class is the coolest crime.

2