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SteveTheZombie t1_jdcggpk wrote

Unfortunately, he didn't just shoot himself first and save a lot of suffering for two innocent families.

I hope they make a speedy recovery. Teachers and school staff aren't paid enough for the bullshit they are forced to deal with.

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jaybeezo t1_jdcm927 wrote

The kid was on some kind of disciplinary plan that required him to be frisked every morning at school. He had likely threatened this exact action towards staff/students.

So everyone, including this kid's parents, knew he was a risk. Was he still able to get one of his parent's guns or did he score it on the street?

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skytomorrownow t1_jdcqj3j wrote

> The kid was on some kind of disciplinary plan that required him to be frisked every morning at school. He had likely threatened this exact action towards staff/students.

I'm curious why these kinds of students cannot simply expelled? Once you need to frisk someone, that seems to be adequate grounds for them to simply be removed for safety reasons.

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Scribe625 t1_jdd86li wrote

I work at a school and can attest it's ridiculously hard to expel a student and it's impossible if the student has any kind of IEP or a 504 plan because they're considered special education students and there's a ton of regulations schools have to follow for those kinds of students. I've had students violently assault staff members without any consequences because the administration is only allowed to suspend them from school 10 days total for the year so the administration feels they have to choose those days wisely, which the student knows so they know they can just keep assaulting people and have no reason to stop.

To expel a student for behavior issues requires the school to find and pay for their education somewhere else. Unfortunately, these few available alternative schools are selective and will then insist after a while that the student is ready to return to regular school since there's always a wait list and they want to free up a spot for another student. Then the student returns, can't cope with the regular school and does something that gets them kicked out and placed in a different alternative school. It's a horrible cycle and the returned students are usually more dangerous because they want to do something to get themselves out of the regular school again. I've had newly returned students try to commit suicide at school because they can't cope in a regular education system, and it's frankly terrifying as an educator.

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EchoStellar12 t1_jddny8g wrote

You can absolutely suspend students with IEPs and 504s for more than ten days. You are required to hold a manifestation hearing and a superintendents hearing prior to giving more than ten. Purpose of the meetings is to prove, one way or the other, if the actions were a result of their disability and if the accommodations/modifications/programs outline in the IEP/504 have been adequately provided.

Source: Am special education teacher, have sat in on several of these meetings, had a student removed from school for the remainder of the year after making a threat in September.

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dthornbu t1_jde1alj wrote

Fellow special ed teacher here, you are spot on, the only issue is if the manifestation hearing finds that the discipline issue was a result of the disability, that's when it gets murky (so I have been told, I have never seen it first hand).

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EchoStellar12 t1_jdeuphi wrote

That's absolutely true, but typically it's a question of "does the kid know right from wrong?" The answer is generally yes, even if the student is classified emotional disturbance.

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insidiousapricot t1_jdgynpj wrote

Damn I got expelled in 7th grade because a forgotten tiny cheap pocket knife, one of those ones with a toothpick that isn't even as sharp as scissors, fell out of my pocket changing for swimming. I was a good kid never any issues and good grades. They sent me to some program with other expelled kids who were actual troublemakers. And they told them I was a smart kid before I got there so they were making fun of me the moment I walked in lmao. Good times!

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skytomorrownow t1_jddvir7 wrote

Thank you for the insight. It seems like school districts need more funding for building and employees. That seems to be a core issue across the country.

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KulaanDoDinok t1_jdcriq5 wrote

No Child Left Behind Every Child Succeeds Act. A child can’t be expelled without finding an alternative.

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DTFH_ t1_jdcw848 wrote

That's not quite the full truth, they can be expelled BUT the school loses funding for that student and is required to pay for an alternative, so this school like all do the calculus and 99% of them choose to keep funding rather than send the student out of district and potentially be on the hook to pay more than the student generates in district. Basically profits over people at work yet again.

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Banshee3oh3 t1_jdcxk3h wrote

As someone who has lived in Denver since conception, East is a MASSIVE high school. Probably one of the biggest in Colorado. Keeping 1 student that might bring in 1/5000 the budget at the expense of every else’s safety is pretty dumb. Not only that, but East is also pretty wealthy in comparison to other public Colorado schools. No excuses here not to expel him. It’s more about how Denver sacrifices the future of everyone for a select few disasters.

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DTFH_ t1_jdcxvxo wrote

From Denver too and they may only bring in 1/5000 but the alternative could cost 4/5000, so a net loss, this is not specific to Denver but to all education in all states. With this in mind you'll understand how this totally 'unexplained' tragedy keeps playing out time and time again with a new shooter in another state.

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Banshee3oh3 t1_jdcydv1 wrote

I just explained how this entire thing could have been prevented. Stop trying to save every single kid. I’m sorry but some kids just have it made to end up in a cell or a ditch. That’s the reality. Expel students who are deemed a legitimate threat, and stop searching them every day. That only agitates the situation.

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DTFH_ t1_jdcz7a7 wrote

Student safety does not matter, only cost; the motto in this country is 'money over people'. That's why HS graduation rates are at all time highs while reading scores of those graduating are at all time lows. The courts have ruled teachers are not entitled to safety and the police are not there to protect the people.

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Banshee3oh3 t1_jdczps0 wrote

Yeah sadly… The entire public education system is on a whole other level of screwed. Maybe appropriately adjusting student costs to be equal with budget increases per student would fix this. Right now, the cost to keep a student enrolled is lower than the budget increase you get from 1 student. That means it’s ALWAYS a net positive to keep them in school, or what was simplified in the past as, no child left behind. Another policy paved with good intentions that have led to hell.

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DefinitelyNotAliens t1_jddbz6i wrote

Curious, why doesn't Denver schools have an alternative school in-district?

My much smaller school district had an alternative school so they didn't expell them, they just moved to self-paced alternative schools. They can go there to continuation high schools voluntarily or the day schools non-voluntarily. We have both. Day schools are for behavioral and attendance issues.

One of our continuation schools has a full preschool program for free for students and takes babies 6+ weeks, so kids can finish their high school at an accelerated pace or catch up and get daycare. Have a diploma, not a GED. Totally free. They even hold parenting classes. If you enroll your child there one class per day is in there learning parenting skills.

They also have a at-risk student school for habitually truant/ violent students who didn't or won't divert into continuation schools and an online school platform for kids who are sick or dealing with other issues and can't attend on campus. You can also get shoved there pending explusion and movement into alternative programs.

Like, why wouldn't Denver have alternative programs? It costs the district here, not their original school. The state gives extra funding for it, even.

My city is smaller than Denver, too.

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DTFH_ t1_jddcpy0 wrote

They very well could have alternative schools but that does not mean if alternative schools have the resources to students, and what I have seen is that many alternative schools could be 8 to 10 times the cost, meaning the district would have to cover that student at that price with parental approval for the student to be transferred. So if the parent has been involved and been a roadblock every which way the school can't do anything besides keep them in district.

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DefinitelyNotAliens t1_jddl2xx wrote

We have two versions, the 'parent/ student agree' version which is usually like some truancy, minor behavioral or just... traditional school didn't work version. We also have the "you're at this school now, don't end up in prison" version. They're two separate campuses.

The "you're a danger" version is not in any way, shape or form a parental choice. You will go there. The regular school is no longer an option.

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DTFH_ t1_jddpepv wrote

The latter requires an educational lawyer to act on behalf of the school, which the school will again avoid at all costs especially if the parent or guardian is not on board and/or is actively being a roadblock to proper placement which is not uncommon. You will go there pending proper paperwork.

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BestCatEva t1_jde08n8 wrote

I’ll wager you’re not in the US Southeast. I remember this ‘up North’ but nothing like this exists in many, many states.

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ComprehensiveAdmin t1_jdd1t0q wrote

It has absolutely nothing to do with funding.

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DTFH_ t1_jdd4ksg wrote

Sure what's your analysis? I understand it as relating to NCLB in that students are entitled to an education or being provided an alternative at the schools expense.

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ComprehensiveAdmin t1_jdd4u9f wrote

It’s the expulsion process itself, and the look for districts when they expel students.

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DTFH_ t1_jdd5mg6 wrote

How do you think somehow schools districts all across this county came to the same conclusion regarding expulsion, if expulsion is not related to funding as per NCLB's requirements?

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Faptain__Marvel t1_jddxpl3 wrote

Then there is the race thing. Predominately white school districts booting predominately young black men always causes problems.

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jereman75 t1_jdd8a31 wrote

Everything has to do with funding.

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ComprehensiveAdmin t1_jddd987 wrote

I tend to agree with you on this in about every situation, but not this one. I would be curious if this student was on an IEP. That is typically the primary reason students with extreme behaviors are not expelled. Trust me when I tell you that a few thousand dollars in funding for one kid isn’t going to be the deciding factor in whether to expel or not.

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robexib t1_jddf68v wrote

Eh, depends.

I was damned near expelled after a series of terrorist threat allegations that were proven in a courtroom later to be falsified as a means to have me expelled. The reason for the accusations?

I was attempting to talk to a guidance counselor. Seriously.

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SOUTHPAWMIKE t1_jdemv14 wrote

Jesus. You can't just drop a bomb like that in here without any follow up. I'd love to know more, but obviously please don't talk about anything you aren't comfortable with.

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robexib t1_jdesk9s wrote

So, in my school district, the administration were seemingly on the cut when it came to admitting students as special education students, whether they needed it or not. Apparently, a chunk of that funding was lost if any of those students were to transition out of special education for any reason.

I wanted out. My parents wanted me out. The guidance counselor's office were aware of my situation, but couldn't do much. The only folks who had any issue were in the administration, and were either principals or vice principals. I needed their permission to take standard education classes, which would be invariably denied. No reason given. This is in direct violation of IDEA, BTW.

So, I'd go behind their backs and try to talk to counselors regardless. It'd take maybe a day before the pricipal found out, bring me into his office, pull some bullshit allegation about I'd threaten to blow up the gym or shoot up a classroom and use that as the reason to suspend me, and have my changes to my schedule and IEP reverted.

The superintendent was fully aware this was happening and did nothing. I don't have evidence for it, but I suspect he was on the take.

This is why I'm generally against increasing funding for schools. Far too many administrators take far too much for their own personal gain, and teachers, students, and other actually useful staff get very little of that money.

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SOUTHPAWMIKE t1_jdeu4ct wrote

That's fucking horrendous, but not surprising. I know for a fact that districts get more funding per Sped student, and yeah, many of the admins I worked with also tried to push kids onto IEPs for those extra dollars.

You said the charges got thrown out in court, and I'm glad they did. Did anyone who put you in this situation ever face consequences?

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robexib t1_jdf6sv4 wrote

Principal got slapped with a restraining order. About it.

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Lesmiserablemuffins t1_jdfxz78 wrote

Any extra money for SPED is used to... fund sped lol. Special education is not cheap and schools really do not get enough funds to run these programs at a minimal quality, much less somehow siphon that money into other things

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SOUTHPAWMIKE t1_jdfzllv wrote

I'm not implying that anything was being used or spent inappropriately where I worked, but I'm also not trying to call u/robexib a liar. I was also always told that we get special state funding for our SPED Program, (which I was involved in occasionally spending to address SPED needs) but also general use ADA funding, and we got more per child w/ special needs.

But I was in IT, not SPED or Finance, so I don't really know.

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robexib t1_jdgb4hq wrote

Right, it's generally the case that the schools that comply with ADA and IDEA are supposed to get extra funding in order to assist students who have special needs, like access to speech pathologists or medical professionals with training in the issues faced by a student. It's also, in part, meant to give teachers a financial incentive to take on special education students.

The extra funding isn't the issue by itself. It's the fact that schools make it far too easy to skim off the top and get away with it without involving a courtroom.

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just-why_ t1_jdeghmt wrote

No child left behind was so poorly implemented and funded that the US ditched it, and rightfully so.

I went to school during that. It was a disaster.

The schools didn't get proper funding or backing to pull it off properly.

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thatisnotmyknob t1_jdcregm wrote

Because you can't just expell a kid and be done with them. The school system still needs to educate them. It's cheaper to frisk them than pay some outside specialized program to take them.

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ADarwinAward t1_jddcbix wrote

Colorado doesn’t even allow students to be expelled for more than a year.

Law here

Explanation here

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DefinitelyNotAliens t1_jddc8cp wrote

My district just runs those alternative programs in-district and gets state funding for them.

Colorado seriously doesn't pay for alternative schools?

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dryopteris_eee t1_jddcte5 wrote

I know for a fact that there is an alternative high school in Fort Collins, so if there aren't any options in Denver, that would be pretty wild.

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ErectionDenier2024 t1_jddrfyq wrote

Hell, there was an alternative school or two down in Canon City back when I lived there, and that was in the 90s-2000s.

There's no way they don't have at least ONE alternative school in Denver.

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Psychological-Cod231 t1_jddc0hs wrote

Probably some handwringing about the school to prison pipeline.

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fvb955cd t1_jdddtz9 wrote

The obvious solution to all of this is more restorative justice sessione between two soon to be murder victims, the murderer, and a random teacher who took a two hour online class on how to conduct restorative justice sessions. Absolutely no need for anything else, not social workers or psychologists or police, nope, those are all bad

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DarkMasterPoliteness t1_jddsirc wrote

Yes restorative justice caused this and not lack of gun control

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fvb955cd t1_jddux17 wrote

It's not inconsistent to want gun control and also have the sense that school districts have utterly failed at implementing any sort of functioning behavior modification system that is acceptable to progressives. Schools can't help with gun control. School administrations are directly responsible for keeping their students safe and part of that means controlling students with disciplinary measures.

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DarkMasterPoliteness t1_jddxwue wrote

You’re just making wild assumptions though. We know for a fact a gun was involved. Everything you’re saying is just wild speculation that fits your worldview

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meatball77 t1_jde6506 wrote

They're just expelled to a different type of school if they are. Kids have a right to be educated. If he'd been at Wendy's rather than a school. . . .

This is the best thing (outside of taking the guns away) that could have been done. I suspect they prevented something much worse from happening.

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TheFormless0ne t1_jdcojvk wrote

Doesn't matter, because doing nothing about it will lead to this again and again

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damagecontrolparty t1_jdcpdyy wrote

Why was he still allowed in school if he required that kind of "safety plan"?

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DTFH_ t1_jdcwwou wrote

Because funding is tied to the student, they can be expelled BUT the school loses funding for that student and is required to pay for an alternative, so this school like all do the calculus and 99% of them choose to keep funding rather than send the student out of district and potentially be on the hook to pay more than the student generates in district. Basically profits over people at work yet again.

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KimJongFunk t1_jdcqwto wrote

Not sure about everyone else (or maybe my home life and environment were really that shitty) but when I was a teenager I knew exactly where to go to buy a gun on the street and roughly how much it would cost. It wasn’t exactly a secret that a certain neighborhood was rough and you could purchase guns, drugs, booze etc from the people hanging outside a particular convenience store.

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billpalto t1_jdd152d wrote

I went to an elementary school that had grades 1-8. There were so many gangs and knife fights that the school cafeteria didn't have any knives at all, not even butter knives.

That was in 1964.

School shootings weren't a thing back then, at least not yet.

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Miketogoz t1_jdddn8q wrote

Huh, really? As a non-American, I've read someone else talk about how Columbine changed everything. What's your thoughts on how and when things changed?

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frodosdream t1_jddohxu wrote

Not the person you replied to, but IIRC "Columbine changed everything" generally means "raised widespread public awareness" for what had always happened occasionally and then vastly increased in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and then expanded again in the 2000s. There was a brief lull in the late-90s and then Columbine took place on April 20, 1999 ushering in the present epidemic of school shootings.

Others have correctly pointed out that while there was often school violence, mass school shootings were far rarer in the 1960s and 70s even though firearms were much easier to obtain then, and poverty rates were worse than today.

Many things changed in America since that time and no one knows if there was one cause or many. But it's interesting that the 1980s saw the birth of the internet, while the 1990s saw the first widespread social media. This same period also saw an enormous increase in psychiatric drugs prescribed for school children. The early 1980s also saw the infamous crack epidemic which fostered the explosive spread of modern gang culture.

Much later, President GHW Bush signed the No Child Left Behind Act in 2002, which has caused so many schools to end expulsions for behavioral problems (and to lower educational standards for test scores). Many educators discuss the negative impact of NCLB over on r/teachers. But there are probably other factors equally significant as all these; we only know that kids snap more violently and resort to guns more quickly now than they did two generations ago.

From the late 1980s to the early 1990s the United States saw a sharp increase in gun and gun violence in the schools. According to a survey conducted by The Harvard School of Public Health "15% said that they had carried a handgun on their person in the past 30 days, and 4% said that they had taken a handgun to school in the past year." a sharp increase from just five years earlier. By 1993, the United States saw some of the most violent time is school shooting incidences. ... (then) the late 1990s started to see a major reduction in gun related school violence, but was still plagued with multiple victim shootings.

https://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states

Edit: a word

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Miketogoz t1_jddz2t4 wrote

Fascinating read, thank you. I was really under the impression that shootings were a thing in the US since public schools, honestly. I can now better understand why the problem is so divisive.

I think you deserve more lines, but the only thing that comes to my head is that the sense of defeat on dealing with this issue is what has made me believe it was a thing since the 19th century.

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Castelpurgio t1_jdelf2p wrote

Hey, somebody my age! Yeah in he seventh grade one of my best friends was expelled for stabbing the principal and the math teacher. It was over a false graffiti accusation he was about to be punished for. We were all telling them it wasn’t him but they wouldn’t listen.

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pkdickfan t1_jddcwy6 wrote

A safety plan like this can also be written for a student that has at one point discussed suicide. So, he may not have been perceived as a threat to others.

Schools are not adequately funded to have full time school nurses in many cases, let alone mental health professionals. And even if they do have those professionals, it is likely a case load that is beyond absurd.

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raider1v11 t1_jddn0fy wrote

Kick that kid the fuck out. Also, what's up with the parents? I'm sure they are paragons of virtue.

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St3phiroth t1_jde48ei wrote

We used to live in the neighborhood near that high school. It would be incredibly easy to get a gun on the street if he had some money.

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jayzeeinthehouse t1_jddxnf7 wrote

He was on a behavioral plan that required him to get patted down by admins before he entered the school, and he shot two admins in the leg yesterday while that was happening (Dean of culture, and Dean of Restorative Justice).

It's also been revealed that he was expelled by near by Cherry Creek school district last year, so I think that he has had a long history of problems and East, which is a fairly prestigious school in Denver, decided that they could work with him without law enforcement involvement.

This is all following a fatal shooting a block away from the school a month or so ago, a student protest that followed, and several other incidents at the school.

But the bigger issue is that Denver schools are poorly run, have terrible admins, hemorrhage teachers by the dozen, and don't pay anything, so the superintendents solution that will bring an SRO to every school in the area, won't solve the pernicious structural issues here, and the community doesn't trust the police because they are either shooting innocent people or doing absolutely nothing.

In short, this problem is a symptom a much larger issues because things have gotten really bad. And, as an educator, I want two questions answered: Why the fuck was this kid allowed at school if he needed pat downs? And what the fuck were the admins thinking?

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cmv1 t1_jdeit25 wrote

DPS is such a shitshow. For a city that has seen meteoric rises in tax revenue and an inflow of affluent out-of-state workers, the fact that their public school system continues to underperform is a blight on an otherwise very forward thinking city.

On a related note, I have a friend whose kid almost went to East said that nearly 800 kids citywide are on some sort of security plan similar to this child; he was not an outlier in that respect.

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jayzeeinthehouse t1_jdekhaa wrote

You're right! Tons of students are on behavior plans, and they're often used the wrong way because it works to admins advantage to keep things like suspensions, referrals, detentions, or anything else that's tracked by the state out of official recording systems here, so I don't really think that leaders and policy makers have a full picture of the issue, and I think that once the media does some digging, they'll start talking about the countless teachers that have tried to get help but have been ignored and left worried about their personal safety trying to do a job that has become impossible.

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sweetpeapickle t1_jdegjin wrote

I get that's what people would have wanted. But many of these kids are not born this way. I would rather have them be able to get help. Why does this keep happening? Is it the parents not "parenting". Is it that the kid needs psychiatric help. Did something happen to the kid when he/she was younger, etc etc etc. Yes, there are those, where you could have the best childhood & still go out and murder. But JFC kids should not have those thoughts. They also should not have to go through depression or be bullied. This world is doing something seriously wrong, that this keeps happening, yet were not changing for the better. It's not only the weapons. Why are we so unable to stop this before it even gets that far???

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Drunky_Brewster t1_jddouhx wrote

It's a 17 year old kid who was obviously very troubled with no guidance from those tasked to raise him and you just want him to kill himself instead of getting the help he truly needed. This is why we have a problem in this country; we don't want to help people, we just want them to go away so we don't have to deal with them. It's just such a gross way of thinking that it's shocking to see it written out and then up voted by others.

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[deleted] t1_jddv1ab wrote

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Drunky_Brewster t1_jdeg55j wrote

If you wanted to be more clear then you should have had empathy in your original comment. But you didn't. So fuck off with your backtracking bullshit and maybe start writing clearly instead of unsympathetic hot takes that get you up votes.

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oldschoolskater OP t1_jdccd23 wrote

'The Park County, Colorado, coroner has confirmed that a body found in a wooded area Wednesday evening is 17-year-old Austin Lyle, who allegedly shot and wounded two staff members earlier that day at a Denver high school – a community already reeling from a fatal incident of gun violence last month."

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too_old_to_be_clever t1_jdckck3 wrote

What is it that drives the youths of today to feel this is a viable outlet? I don't remember this being a thing when I was in school in the late 80's and early 90's.

What can we realistically do about it that doesn't involve blast doors and bullet proof windows that people seem to be fans of these days.

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WaterFriendsIV t1_jdcwpae wrote

Former teacher here.

If you are a student who is forced every day to go somewhere you aren't successful, have no friends, teachers expect you to fail, and you are frisked and treated like a criminal every day, you are going to despair and feel hopeless. This will turn into resentment and anger. Now add easy access to guns and the question isn't "why does this keep happening?" it's "why isn't this happening even more?"

For 30% of students, high school is pretty fun. You may have lots of friends, excel at sports, and maybe even date. Teachers like you, your parents share your successes with other people. You are college bound.

For another 30%, school is tolerable. You have passable grades, go to events once in a while, have friends you hang out with, and may or may not have plans to go to college one day. It's not your favorite place to be, but it's not forever, and you have the idea that things will be better after high school.

Another 30% hate school. They find it mind-numbingly boring, can't wait to be done, and wouldn't go to a dance or sporting event if you paid them. They have one or two people who are friends and are closer to them than most family members. They smoke weed to be able to get through the day and play video games to escape and have something to look forward to.

School is painful for the last 10%. They only go if forced. They are isolated and alone. They are bullied daily, if not hourly. They might survive it until they can drop out. Or they might resort to killing the people that they feel are responsible and then themselves.

For some kids, school is already prison. It is a hopeless place they endure, if they can. Until school changes, this will keep happening. Easy access to guns just adds gas to an already burning fire.

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BleedOutCold t1_jddpeow wrote

> you are frisked and treated like a criminal every day

There is no universe in which a kid gets to continue attending school in-person after bringing a weapon in, and constant searches aren't required as a condition of that impressive display of societal willingness to not just immediately crumple an objectively dangerous-to-other-kids child up and throw them away.

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captaincaf t1_jdgn9wp wrote

Im a former teacher. I worked at a school where a kid brought a weapon in and was back the following week. Charter school. You would be surprised by the lack of recourse that teachers have. If he is expelled, he goes to a different school and he’s still a threat. He drops out? Still a threat to greater society. This is why you should vote for candidates who support more funding for the education system. One method to reduce student isolation is to increase the amount of counseling at schools. Proven to work, but there’s no money for it.

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TheRavenSayeth t1_jddkm12 wrote

This is so spot on. School in its current form is so inefficient that it becomes daily torture for a lot of kids. I can’t imagine we’re made to endure 18 years of sitting in a room listening to someone tell us something then quiz us over it again and again.

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humdaaks_lament t1_jde0fpr wrote

Education isn't designed to educate, it's designed to sort and grade.

It filters for people who are ideal cogs in a 19th-century factory.

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juicebronston t1_jdfapah wrote

Only the 30% who hate school smoke weed? This doesn’t match my experience at all.

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dr_set t1_jdgssqp wrote

Best take I have read on the issue.

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Self-Comprehensive t1_jdcwwjk wrote

It was totally a thing in the 80s and 90s, it just wasn't so extreme. It ramped up after Columbine in 99 though.

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Felevion t1_jdeif7i wrote

Lines up with when the internet started to really take off too. It's a great thing but at the same time allows troubled people to reinforce their issues. Then add on the media constantly going on about it which makes copycats more likely.

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[deleted] t1_jdclj9e wrote

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BleedOutCold t1_jdcm8cq wrote

> guns were harder to get in the 80s

What are you smoking? There's a great case to be made that specific kinds of tacticool firearms are marketed more aggressively and occupy a bigger chunk of the market share these days, but in terms of pure ease of access the 80s and 90s were definitely less restrictive times for buying (much less possessing) guns in general and handguns in specific.

[Edit to incorporate response to later, now deleted, comment]

> There is simply vastly more guns in America now then in the 80s.

Are you...are you suggesting that if someone wanted one in the 80s, there just weren't enough for sale? Because that's just screaming I wasn't alive in the 80s! The US population has also increased roughly 50% since 1980, and of course we're concerned about access, which is a per capita thing.

>Plus in the 94, we had a ban on assault weapons, which expired in 2004

Heh, you're not real clear on what that thing did, I see. I used to own a few 12 round mags with the RESTRICTED LEO/GOVT USE ONLY 10-94 branding...they came with a legally purchased pistol I received from a FFL around 2002. All the 94 "ban" did was change what the stocks on the new ARs in the shop looked like, and how expensive the old ARs and standard cap mags were...that's it.

>shooting with assault weapons have grown exponentially since

Yes, numbers are what they are. But you're mistaking correlation with causation here. Moreover, 10 drops in a bucket is an exponential increase from 1 drop in a bucket...but we're still talking drops in a bucket. The staggeringly vast majority of US gun homicides were and are handguns.

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[deleted] t1_jdcoq53 wrote

[removed]

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dwilkes827 t1_jdcspgd wrote

you also got expelled from school in the 80s instead of just patted down on the way to class if you threatened to shoot people

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WaterFriendsIV t1_jdcwuxx wrote

Where do the expelled kids go?

2

dwilkes827 t1_jdcx5u3 wrote

I don't know. I wasn't saying they should expel kids, just pointing out that's what they did in that time.

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Rufus_Reddit t1_jde9gk3 wrote

The ones that [I] knew about ended up in other schools. (Possibly ones that specialized in maintaining discipline and safety.)

1

LT-Lance t1_jdctjyb wrote

Harder to get? Back then schools still had gun/hunting clubs. It was normal to bring your hunting rifle after school. At least those in the Midwest.

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Rufus_Reddit t1_jdcqssq wrote

People constantly talking about school shootings is probably a factor.

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BluePinonPancake t1_jdcva9t wrote

The medias favorite topic

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zombienutz1 t1_jdcxd69 wrote

Chaos and tragedy fuel our media. And anything that is a "feel good" story is typically about a celebrity's new clothing line or politician's book.

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Hooterdear t1_jdcxgzj wrote

But I could talk about school shootings every day and not have the desire to commit one.

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Rufus_Reddit t1_jdd1qyq wrote

Analogously, millions of people in the US have guns and don't commit (or want to commit) school shootings either. Even so, gun control proposals are a popular response.

It's obviously true that media coverage of school shootings isn't sufficient to make people commit them, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a factor in people's decisions. (From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shooting_contagion)

> ... A study conducted in 2015 suggest that the Columbine shooters inspired a minimum of 21 mimicked shooting and 53 attempted plans to commit such an act in the U.S. over a 15-year period. ... (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0002764218763476 )

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KaiserMazoku t1_jdcwru4 wrote

crazy how people constantly talk about this thing that constantly happens

8

Skyzuh t1_jdda71i wrote

Yeah let's bury our heads in the sand and it'll go away.

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Bekiala t1_jdcwce3 wrote

Kids probably are no different but the US has a huge proliferation of guns now and schools are not allowed to expel students without finding alternative means of educating them.

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Rufus_Reddit t1_jdd6qis wrote

Can you expand on what you mean by "huge proliferation of guns now?" Gun ownership rates have mostly flattened or dropped over the last 20 years. (https://www.pewpewtactical.com/gun-ownership-through-the-years/ )

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Bekiala t1_jdddhk2 wrote

I'm a bit dubious about the website you have linked. In discussions about guns there are so many rabidly anti/pro gun groups. I try to stay away from these.

What I am referencing is that the guns bought over time don't go away. They stay in the population. We can make gun control laws but about half of Americans already own guns. Any new laws won't really affect this fact. . . . .irk . . . I'm no expert on laws not guns so maybe there is a gun control law that would cut down on our suicides and murders but I am a bit dubious. I would be happy to change my mind if you can argue for a way we can improve things.

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Rufus_Reddit t1_jddh5pk wrote

> ... What I am referencing is that the guns bought over time don't go away. ...

Ah. I misunderstood. I thought that "huge proliferation of guns now" was intended to be about some kind of recent change in gun availability or gun ownership. I think that everyone agrees that there are hundreds of millions of guns in private hands in the US.

In case you care, it's not that hard to find other charts of gun ownership rates over time:

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/gun-ownership.html

For reference about where Rand stands on gun policy:

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RRA243-4.html

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Bekiala t1_jddqb5z wrote

Thanks for the links. This looks like a fairly decent organization.

Again, I'm all for cutting down on gun violence and specially suicide I'm just not sure what public policy would be effective.

3

elizabeth-cooper t1_jdd4ej5 wrote

Colorado has the highest per capita mass shootings since Columbine.

The altitude makes people insane. Literally. High altitude can impair cognition and increase symptoms of mental illness.

Make Colorado wild again.

3

Miguel-odon t1_jdfipim wrote

South Park was never funny until I lived in Colorado. I blame oxygen deprivation.

0

synchrohighway t1_jdclo7x wrote

Easy access to guns. Youths in other countries feel the same depression and pain and rage and play the same violent games and watch the same violent tv and movies and use the same social media that sometimes promotes violence, but the access to guns is what keeps school shootings down.

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RyuNinja t1_jdd4x3o wrote

It is inaccurate to dismiss the role of American culture and ideals in our current issues. Other countries do have measured differences in the reported mental anguish etc... it is not equal across countries.

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Tegoto t1_jdddkd2 wrote

Precisely this. The US is unique in how deeply dystopian our society is compared to other "first-world" countries. We have a very inaccessible healthcare system, pervasive economic insecurity, a deeply atomized and divided society. All of this and other things add up to emotional stress that inevitably breaks some people. The idea that we can just get rid of guns and everything will be fine is ignoring the actual issues.

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[deleted] t1_jdcnj8s wrote

[removed]

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jejacks00n t1_jdcqy8f wrote

Oh cool, I guess there’s nothing to be done here. Close up shop boys, this guy says it’s just the news cycle killing kids.

7

Rufus_Reddit t1_jdcs0bh wrote

Maybe you mean shootings in general, but school shootings seem to be on the rise. Wikipedia lists about 8 school shootings per year in the 2000s, about 25 per year in the 2010s' and about 36 per year in the 2020s so far. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States_(2000%E2%80%93present) ) I guess reporting standards could have changed or something.

1

homerteedo t1_jdcow0l wrote

Gun control. But we’re the only country where that won’t work for some reason. /s

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Moynamama t1_jddruih wrote

> … he was under a school safety plan requiring him to undergo daily pat down searches upon entering the school.

If there is that much of a concern just expel the kid and get it over with. Some troubled kids can’t be saved.

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captaincaf t1_jdgmsus wrote

You expel him and he just goes to a different school. Speaking from the experience of a former teacher. There are not many solutions to issues like this.

3

concerned_mess t1_jdfxuwn wrote

I wonder if there was a judge order for him to stay in that school and the pat down was the only compromise they could get.

1

Frozen_Thorn t1_jdcugi1 wrote

This entire story is just sad. This kid needed proper help. Instead we have violence and tragedy.

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Bekiala t1_jdcwj0w wrote

Sadly so much "help" for kids needs to start at birth. Seventeen can be too late. Sure some troubled kids can become working members of society but some never will. Ugh.

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SomeOtherOrder t1_jddm8u2 wrote

I wish kids knew that even though high school can be a borderline unbearable experience, your life will probably get significantly better after you graduate if you make good decisions.

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BootShoeManTv t1_jdefjyf wrote

If the last decision in life you make is to shoot two of the people who were actually trying to give you a chance at life, risking their own lives so he could stay on a regular school and didn’t have to get bussed in to a juvenile prison “classroom”

  • then I really don’t think he was going to magically become a decent human being after graduating.
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Drexill_BD t1_jdds8ud wrote

The fact that school (not high school) is such an unbearable experience is the problem. I was telling my wife how crazy it is that if you let your parents tell you about school when they went, and ask your kids about school now... even though allllll these decades have passed... it's the same.

It's like we can't do basic science. School is a prison. Are prisons violent?

weird.

2

CRCs_Reality t1_jdd4c51 wrote

Oh crap, I know where that is.. . . . Ironically (or not) right next to the Alcohol/Tobacco/Firearms store.

14

notathr0waway1 t1_jdg6y4n wrote

I've heard of the bureau of atf, but there's a f****** store where you can buy all three of those things in the same place?

It also looks like there's a Green Cross on there so it's also a weed dispensary?

0

Hoot1nanny204 t1_jdeqqfs wrote

So predictably American, the answer must be more guns 🙄

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Feeling_Space4085 t1_jdeo238 wrote

This happens everywhere else in the world and is totally normal

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[deleted] t1_jdcvg3r wrote

[removed]

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kuroimakina t1_jdcxdhc wrote

Happy ending for who? Seriously. What about this is happy in any aspect at all?

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Beepersteen t1_jdd8gae wrote

The POS who killed two people, who was so well known to be a POS that he had to be searched every day in order to attend school, shall never commit another crime again. The sad part (apart from the death of two innocent people) is that he didn't just kill himself first. The world is a slighter safer place today - happy ending to a sad story.

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