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Buck-Nasty t1_isbq2ik wrote

This is extremely common in Canada, the majority of realtors will help you commit fraud for a fee.

158

Buck-Nasty t1_isbr5ao wrote

Replying to uatme (#104,440)

No chance, Canada has the lowest rates of white collar criminal prosecutions on the planet and those who are convicted would never go to prison.

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Strix780 t1_isbtwit wrote

I'm shocked-- shocked!-- to find out this is going on.

21

Pseudonymble t1_isbuctp wrote

Replying to Buck-Nasty (#104,404)

I've worked at a brokerage for years and I can not think of a single instance of this. I'm by no means saying that there aren't shady or disreputable practices out there, but I would hardly catagorize the "majority" of Realtors as perpetrators of Mortgage fraud.

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OptimusSublime t1_isbv0qn wrote

And then they miss their first payment and get the house repossessed. Is it 2008 again?

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Yanlex t1_isby2q3 wrote

Replying to Literature-South (#104,768)

I'm assuming the buyer didn't have an agent, so there was only one realtor involved (OP's/the sellers). With only one realtor, OP would only have to pay one commission, but if the buyer had a realtor he would have to pay their commission too (traditionally the seller pays both commissions). So OP's realtor tried to get the buyer to sign him as his realtor, after the deal had already been made, just so he could double dip on the commission (screwing over his actual client) without doing any work.

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BrightLuchr t1_isc91ay wrote

There are over 100,000 Realtors in Canada. The cost to obtain and maintain a license is not that much.

>Industry needs better oversight, expert says

Obviously! RECO does not do a good job at oversight. But the better question is why does the Real Estate profession even exist in the modern age? They don't provide much service for the enormous fee they charge.

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theprofessor24 t1_isca0c0 wrote

Is this fraud? Yes it is. Is it that bad? No it isn't. Essentially what's happening here is a home buyer owns a business. This business generates monthly cashflow but the owner does not take a salary. If you do not take a salary, you have no taxable income. No taxable income, "A" banks won't accept you. In theory, a business owner could make a million dollars a month. However, because they do not show any income, they are SOL.

This is not the type of fraud used to hurt anyone. This is the type of fraud that is used to go around bureaucratic nonsense. The mortgage will be paid because the funds needed are there.

−17

BaronCapdeville t1_iscaxp4 wrote

Replying to [deleted] (#105,215)

Ah. I understood that backwards. I thought you were house hunting and he found an unrepresented property. In that case, it wouldn’t be strange at all.

In this case, he’s already negotiated with the seller (you) for his compensation. He should not be bothering the buyer for anything else.

If he isn’t newish (only a few transaction) or working for a shady broker, this would be unexpected behavior.

It’s worth calling his broker to complain, if he put the deal in jeopardy. If the broker doesn’t make it right, or is dismissive, I would escalate it to the real estate commission.

State real estate commissions don’t fuck around. It is nothing like a police union. One bad apple spoils the bunch, and bad realtors get hit with $10,000 in fines for stuff that’s just standard procedure in other business sectors.

If something was done to hurt your deal, the real estate commission would want to know that. It would also STRONGLY dissuade this realtor from ever fucking with anyone else again. Second offense is usually a lifetime ban, or some huge fine.

Coming from someone with a brokers license: fuck this dude.

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Itsmissile t1_iscbi9p wrote

It’ll shock you what Loan Officers do. How many forged signatures and documents they use.

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GirlPMurPersonality t1_iscc1dr wrote

Replying to [deleted] (#105,215)

Actually, as a dual agent you still do a good amount of extra work most of the time. You have to do all the work on the buyers side that a buyer's agent would normally do. It also brings on a lot of liability. That being said, I'd still give my seller a very nice discount but I wouldn't expect to do all of the buyers side work for free. I have done this many times.

−3

5DollarHitJob t1_iscctsg wrote

Replying to Itsmissile (#105,506)

I had one add a completely made up job with a salary about 6x my real salary to the loan app. When I was e-signing online it caught my eye. I was lucky to notice it. My wife signed the whole thing without reading anything.

Loan officer kept saying he was "working magic," which apparently means committing fraud. When we confronted him about it he said he was doing us a favor. He's being investigated now.

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theprofessor24 t1_iscdjz2 wrote

Replying to ConcreteState (#105,533)

They are not evading taxes. They pay their business taxes, they just don't draw a salary. Nothing illegal there. Like it or not, this is a very real problem that business for self individuals face. Also, like it or not, I am more educated on this topic then 99.9% of people.

−7

Itsmissile t1_iscdnf4 wrote

Replying to 5DollarHitJob (#105,569)

Yup sounds about right. I worked for a LO last year my 2nd day on the job I see this dude print out a document and sign it as the borrower. I was in shock. After that I started looking around for another LO to work for. But yet the same shit happened. I seen assistants and loan coordinators do the same exact thing. They tried telling me “we’re helping the borrowers get a home” I got the fuck out of there as soon as I could. One of the ones I worked for too was one of the highest producers in my state.

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destinationlalaland t1_iscdu31 wrote

Replying to theprofessor24 (#105,409)

That doesn’t really pass a sniff test to me. Seems like something that you should have got advice on from your accountant, if you want to avoid personal income taxes, there’s a consequence. Your scenario reads to me as “I want to have my cake and eat it.” These systems are in place for a reason, and fraud is fraud.

If you have sufficient wealth - and a bank won’t take you, you may need to find an alternative lender - not commit fraud.

11

GirlPMurPersonality t1_isce4ee wrote

Replying to RunRevolutionary9019 (#105,545)

I don't know what all transpired in your situation. I don't doubt it either there are a lot of shitty real estate agents. I was just pointing out that there is extra work if you dual end it. Like you said you have to be transparent and make sure both parties are fully aware of what's going on. I hate real estate agents tbh, everyone does their own shit and there is very little oversight

1

ConcreteState t1_iscex20 wrote

Replying to theprofessor24 (#105,605)

>They are not evading taxes. They pay their business taxes, they just don't draw a salary.

If they want a salary they should pay a salary. And taxes.

> Nothing illegal there.

Incorrect, fabricating a loan application is fraud.

11

theprofessor24 t1_iscf78j wrote

Replying to destinationlalaland (#105,626)

Well unfortunately in today's society it seems the only real way to get ahead is to do things like this. It is absolutely a "Have cake and eat it to" scenario. I'm not advocating for any of this, but I understand where it comes from.

−13

silashoulder t1_iscflkl wrote

Replying to wynnduffyisking (#105,638)

> The key thing to consider with a conflict of interest is disclosure. If disclosed beforehand, and the person is given the approval to continue, then the conflict of interest is not a problem – and consequently legal. However, if the conflict of interest activity was disapproved and the individual continued despite this, or never it disclosed in the first place, it could be considered illegal.

If the judge interprets the distribution of that contract, unsigned, with those terms printed in legible terms as ‘disclosure’…🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

The other thing to consider is what this gentleman did: https://medium.datadriveninvestor.com/russian-man-tricks-bank-into-signing-ridiculous-credit-card-agreement-e4329f7ef4cf

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Blenderx06 t1_iscg6ir wrote

Replying to [deleted] (#105,215)

Otoh, kinda shows why an agent would've been smart for the buyer, if they were tricked so easily into signing something they shouldn't. I wonder where else they were screwed over? (not saying you had any intentions there, but there're just so many details that go into home buying.)

−1

wynnduffyisking t1_iscga5s wrote

Replying to silashoulder (#105,724)

That’s interesting. We don’t follow the same logic. In our rules the realtor is there to only represent the interests of the client and the agent representing the other party means that the agent has interests counter to the client which is a no no disclosed or not.

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Wasted_Potency t1_iscgqv5 wrote

Wow so maybe there is a chance I can get a home.

2

BrightLuchr t1_ischi20 wrote

Replying to Chachilicious (#105,630)

Let's make it more upsetting: Consider that if a buyer is also a realtor, they get to self-schedule a showing and wander around your house unescorted without an agent. I had this happen to me. Did I mention there are a hundred thousand freakin' realtors in this country?

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destinationlalaland t1_ischmf2 wrote

Replying to theprofessor24 (#105,705)

Have we got problems in society and as a nation? Absolutely. Loads of them. But when a plurality of society abandons the rule of law to get ahead, you start on the road to being a failed state.

Your “legitimate use case” will work equally as well for money laundering and bad actors.

2

ohlookahipster t1_isci2bo wrote

Replying to Itsmissile (#105,506)

Compared to my LO who was the extreme opposite lol. She was like the DEA trying to build a case.

Things that required a letter, screenshots, or an explanation via email, often at random hours of the night:

  • buying coffee every Friday morning except for one Friday was a “suspicious buying habit”
  • taking money out at an ATM to go to a casino followed by a deposit at another ATM was suspicious
  • a gift letter from my mother explaining a deposit didn’t count because my mother has a different last name (LO did not understand that married couples don’t always share last names) so my dad had to write the letter
  • the gift letter was further disputed because the gift came from my mother’s checking account that my dad is not a user on
  • screenshots of my statements had to be redone multiple times if screens didn’t come from the exact same device (work laptop used OSX, personal used Windows)
  • making a deposit via Venmo for $100 was sus

Lol

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BaronCapdeville t1_isci7c8 wrote

Replying to Literature-South (#105,706)

You are a prime candidate to never hire a Realtor.

You’re paying for experience doing the thing, not the “work” itself.

I’ve had clients that didn’t need me at all, but wanted another set of eyes, even after me explaining exactly why they didn’t need us.

I’ve had other clients who I’ve saved 100k+ worth of mistakes because me and my guys have experience they simply don’t have.

Folks Don’t generally keep track of zoning ordinance changes, basic code conformity, etc. People are also very frequently looking for property that will not, in fact, meet their needs, and don’t realize it until they speak with someone who does know.

10% of folks need no help at all with how simple their needs are. Another 50% could just use a real estate attorney, and have the vast majority of their needs met. In my experience, it’s that remaining 40% that truly benefit from using a realtor.

That said, the act of simply “hiring a realtor” is meaningless unless you are are reasonably convinced the agent has experience in what you are needing. You can hire the best agent in the city, but if you’re buying farmland, this realtor may have minidress about the laws surrounding “usufruct” of the crops currently growing on the land.

A homeowner may be buying out “in the country” to fulfill their dreams of owning chickens, only to find that they’ve purchased a home in a restricted area that doesn’t allow livestock of any sort, regardless of size, while less than a mile a way, it would have been no issue.

A buyer may have no idea that just across the street from their target property, the property tax drops by 2/3 because it’s no longer a historic district.

These are all just quick and dirty examples of where expertise is beneficial. It’s often what you never saw coming that hurts the most.

I assure you, Zillow does nothing a good realtor does, except allow you to see a house and throw some inaccurate numbers at you.

Zillow is fine for a great many people. I personally find Zillow’s numbers to be inaccurate, it’s service to be near non-existent, and to contain a lot of misleading estimates on payments, taxes, etc.

You are correct though. Not everyone needs an agent. Those who do, are wise to seek outside opinions.

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What_its_full_of t1_iscj3ol wrote

“They’re not confessing, they’re bragging”

Round and round we go.

Fuck.

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thefanciestcat t1_isckz1w wrote

Not at all surprising. After the recession, the banks rightfully took the brunt of the criticism for their role, but

1

Optimal_Article5075 t1_iscoj0v wrote

Replying to Itsmissile (#105,506)

Yup.

I was coached very well on how to deal with the underwriter by my broker.

We also hid a lot of debt in my wife’s name as a non-borrowing spouse to lower my DTI and improve my ability to “afford” the mortgage.

This was in 2018.

9

Blenderx06 t1_iscziap wrote

Replying to hertzsae (#106,266)

>My real estate agent attempted to scam me out of $8000 by tricking the buyer into signing something saying he was representing both of us.

The op used the word, so I did too.

0

EdofBorg t1_isd3isw wrote

I took advantage of the obvious scam going on that led up to the 2008 collapse. The Sub Prime Fraud was so blatantly obvious. Bush 43 handed out your tax dollars for down payments for first time buyers. Shopping around for appraisals. Casual inspections.

Except I wasnt stupid and got a fixed rate not adjustable and the funniest part....I could actually afford my payments.

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EdofBorg t1_isda66k wrote

Replying to PuellaBona (#106,974)

Adjustable rate mortgages were part of the scam. They needed this to cause the defaults. The Sub Prime Crime was about scamming low and middle income workers into guaranteeing debt that the banks then pretended were their assets. You see it doesn't really matter what name is above the door of a bank. They are all the same bank. Owned by the same people, regulated by the same government, and their corruption and gambling backed up with U.S. Taxpayer Dollars when they implode. When Joe Blow (A) bought Joe Blow (B)s price inflated home and some digits went from A to B nothing actually went anywhere. Banks routinely loan money they don't actually have. The whole idea was to use the ARMs to cause as many defaults as possible and in the ensuing panic discard as much fraud as possible. Like a thief setting a house on fire to hide any evidence left behind.

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cynrebels t1_isdcknh wrote

Real estate agents were originally licensed as peddlers.

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Weak-Rip-8650 t1_isdk0sc wrote

Replying to RunRevolutionary9019 (#106,364)

What you're describing, where your realtor represents both parties and takes the full commission (usually 6% sometimes 5 sometimes 7) is really common. In fact I'm surprised he let you do that as most of the time, in fact in every real estate agency contract I've seen and I've seen many, you sign away the 6% or whatever the agreed rate is to your agent right then and there and then he agrees to give half of that commission to anyone who brings a buyer. In fact on my own home sale, I negotiated a reduced rate for dual agency before signing our listing agreement. It happens ALL of the time.

Unless you're trying to say that your realtor was going to take like 12% of the sale, or double what the rate stated in your contract was, he was not trying to scam you, you just didn't understand what you'd signed and he did you a massive favor not holding you to your contract.

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BrewtusMaximus1 t1_isdmt94 wrote

Replying to [deleted] (#104,706)

That’s not how the real estate commission works - you signed a contract with the listing agent giving them X% (7% is typical in the state that I’m in), which would get split between the listing agent and the buyer’s agent if there was one (this split depends upon the brokerage firm). Your listing agent got the same compensation either way, which is why the broker laughed at you.

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falling_knives t1_isdqfto wrote

If someone could come up with a process of buying/selling RE safely that doesn't involve RE agents, the world would be a better place.

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Chadzilla- t1_isdrkhu wrote

Replying to ohlookahipster (#105,829)

Loan officer here: most of the time these ridiculous conditions come from over zealous underwriters, not the loan officer. Most of us are compensated with commissions, so we don’t make money unless loans close (unless you work for a big bank and are a salaried employee). On the other hand, you’ll get some underwriters that are truly impossible to please.

The best defense in these situations is a good offense. Work with a loan officer that truly understands the guidelines of the loan product(s) you’re working with; be forthcoming so they can help structure your file in an open and honest way that they can paint the picture on your behalf for the underwriter. Most of my conversations about conditions happen between me and my operations/underwriting team and the borrower never knows because typically they can be resolved with some common sense.

On the flip side, I could write a novel about the things I’ve seen borrowers do and why certain things will undoubtedly cause issues for them during the process.

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Few_Psychology_2122 t1_isdrpvn wrote

Replying to [deleted] (#107,631)

I can tell you from experience that it’s A LOT more work for the realtor if one party doesn’t have representation (or even good representation) unless they really really know what they’re doing. The buyer repping themselves could mess something up half way through the transaction and ruin the whole thing, then you go back on market and sell for less.

I can’t say anything about your specific realtor, but just offering perspective from the industry

2

superkleenex t1_isdttfk wrote

Replying to BrightLuchr (#105,360)

I will argue that as a seller, I’m not letting someone in my house that isn’t being escorted by a licensed realtor. I’m not going to let random strangers into my house without someone that I can call up afterwards if something got damaged.

8

PseudonymIncognito t1_isdve93 wrote

Replying to theprofessor24 (#105,409)

So then how does the money get from the business to the owner in order to pay the mortgage? The owner is either drawing a salary, or is taking some other capital distribution from the business, which should be reported as income to the appropriate taxing authorities, or the business is a pass-through entity in which case the business income is their personal income and should also have been reported to the taxing authorities.

2

Weak-Rip-8650 t1_isdvh8y wrote

Replying to [deleted] (#107,957)

Yeah I think the "agreement" you thought you had is totally different from the one he thought you had. You keep saying that he "agreed" to something, but yet can't even specify what was agreed. Now you're saying he "tricked" you into signing something, lol.

Im pretty sure I can guess what he told you, you saw that his commission was 6% and you asked "so then what about the buyers agents commission" and he told you that the 6% was split between the buyer and seller's agent. You in your infinite wisdom thought that meant that if the buyer didn't have an agent, there was no buyers agent commission, even though your agreement that you signed specifically said the commission was 6%.

This is not deceptive, what he does is forfeit 3% of his commission to the buyers agent in exchange for them bringing a buyer. If you want altered commission rates based on whether he's a dual agent or whether the buyer doesn't have an agent, it's on you to negotiate different rates. I can tell you that making sure a deal closes when the buyer in particular does not have an agent is NOT an easy task. There are so many things with financing that can get fucked up, and so many times a buyer will get cold feet after an inspection without an agent to tell them that an inspection saying that 50 year old hardwood floors "need refinishing" is entirely common and nothing to be alarmed about, that you definitely want a dual agency as opposed to none.

Also, if your agent is a dual agent, their sole goal is making sure the deal gets done, which is exactly what you want. So many agents will tell the buyer sweet nothings all day to get a dual agency deal done where buyers agents might tell them it's time to back out. Dual agency is almost always better for the SELLER not the buyer.

You are the scumbag. Sorry to break it to you.

1

jdang99 t1_ise0jl1 wrote

Well, thank god he wasn't doing it for free!

3

metaaxis t1_ise2b7j wrote

Just like 2008. Thanks for the toxic assets, get ready for the next wave of credit default swaps. Tranche tranche tranche!!!

1

Helenium_autumnale t1_ise4966 wrote

Replying to BrightLuchr (#105,360)

It's a holdover from the pre-Internet age, like travel agents. We don't need them. They're parasites who often know nothing about the properties they're showing (in my recent experience; my middling research found a problematic sewer field though the house salesman had no idea where it was located) who nevertheless want to siphon off some money. Useless people.

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456afisher t1_isefpxw wrote

Next up will be fake identities with all cash purchase

1

PositionParticular99 t1_iselz5i wrote

America has become just a giant scam. I remember refinancing a house in Florida in 2001. I never asked the bank to commit any fraud, they pretty much offered it. They wanted those juicy fees so bad. No way an appraiser went to the house, as somehow my 2 bedroom/2 bath wood frame house with a 1 car garage became a 3 bedroom, block house with 2 car garage. Sadly at some point they had jacked the value of a $48,000 house up to over $140,000 before the crash of 2008 reset everything.

And not like banks became better at things. I sold a house last year in Tennessee, way more than it was worth, but thats the market. When I went to the closing, they did not have a check for me, after 6 weeks of them supposedly doing paperwork, they had yet to get the loan funded. Wait what? Yea they apparently skipped over that part, but hey they got those closing fees. I had to harass them another 10 days to finally get what I was owed. They simply do not care.

Only gets worse, due to the US being scam central it affects everything. I sent myself money thru western union, waiting over seas when I get off the plane. No they held up the transaction until I called the 800 number and assured them I was not scamming myself. My elderly mother could not even send me money, they flagged her in the computer as an old lady sending money to people overseas. They just assume every transaction is a fraud now because well thats America now.

0

PositionParticular99 t1_isen1av wrote

Replying to superkleenex (#108,049)

A license makes no difference. I was selling a house last year, not my first time around. I had NEVER met a buyer or seller until closing before. Buying you make an appointment and the seller is gone somewhere. As a seller, you are not home when people come looking.

I had a realtor and buyers just walk in one day, zero notice, didn't knock, didn't use the lock box. And I would think a licensed agent call my realtor and say hey that guy was home. Never said a word.

The next buyer I spent an hour trying to avoid politics as they asked question after question at the showing. Another who just showed up at least they did knock. They were hard core Trump people, looking for a red town with even fewer regulations than the red town they live in. Made an offer then found an excuse to back out, far to overextended to buy it. A 100% VA loan, zero room for any problems.

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Arsea t1_iseq3lj wrote

everythings rigged. burn it all dow

3

nochancecat t1_ises097 wrote

Replying to wynnduffyisking (#105,654)

We bought in 2006. Our agent lied about our jobs to the homeowners, we didn't know until after the sale was done. She also asked me to forge a letter saying my mom would cover default, which she wouldn't have done and I told her that. And I didn't do it. We waved everything to get it. Only got approved because of deceptive loan practices at the time. We ended up underwater for years on that house and raised our kids in a 900 square foot house because we couldn't sell it without a huge loss, so we just stayed and the kids started school so we stayed longer. It ended up working out in the long game, but it wasn't the plan we had for our lives, that's for sure.

3

EARSLAY t1_isextma wrote

Replying to ohlookahipster (#105,829)

In the real estate system, loan based offenses are considered especially heinous. In New York City, the dedicated detectives who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as Loan Officers. These are their stories.

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BrownienMotion t1_isf2e2n wrote

Replying to MutantMartian (#109,931)

In my state, the agent representing the buyer is technically called the "selling agent", whereas the seller's agent is the "listing agent". Most people probably refer to them as buyer/seller's agent, but I think it's important to make the emphasis that the selling agent (representing buyer) is trying to sell them properties.

Source: I thought the system was broken so I got a real estate license and found out it was even worse than I had thought.

4

uncle_jessie t1_isf84hw wrote

National Mortgage Company was mortgage company back in the 2000's. I did some IT work for years and years ago. Setup computers, network stuff, etc. I didn't realize it at the time, but they were one of the worst companies when it came to the shady loan practices that lead to 2008. I can remember dudes bragging about how many loans they approved for people with no proof of income, etc. These guys were the absolute worst. Total fucking douchebag bro types. The 2 dudes in The Big Short, the bro's that talk about selling to strippers only. Yea....those guys actually exist. They weren't taking creative liberties in that scene of that movie. Thing is...this place was a 4 story office building full of these guys. Dozens and dozens of them. Our system is pretty fucked. I have no faith in any of it after seeing how easy it was for these people to do what they did. Makes me sick.

edit: if a fucked up twist... I ended up losing my MSP company I started back then because of all of this. Had a ton of real estate companies as customers back then. Supported hundreds of independent agents doing IT work. That shit evaporated overnight once the crash happened.

Fuck these people.

4

nanocookie t1_isfa0hg wrote

Replying to Buck-Nasty (#104,467)

There is an entire neighborhood in Toronto that is populated by rich immigrants from South Asia that laundered or embezzled taxpayer money back home by abusing their political appointments. These people also get permanent residency and gradually obtain Canadian citizenship for all their family members over the course of many years, and finally when their misdeeds become public knowledge, they immediately bail out of the country and escape to Canada.

Canada’s merit-based immigration system is extremely easy to manipulate if you have a college degree, can speak English, and have enough money to show as evidence of financial solvency. No wonder a certain proportion of legal immigrants are essentially upper middle class opportunists from lower income countries.

2

jay5627 t1_isfe4u9 wrote

There are so many rules, as Real estate agents, that we have to follow and seem dumb. Then you remember people are shitty and, while most people won't do the wrong thing, too many will (or will try)

2

quintk t1_ishj1cm wrote

Replying to ohlookahipster (#105,829)

Ours was like this too, though he did warn us that we basically shouldn’t buy anything, sell anything, or transfer any money from the time we first talked to him to the time we signed the loan. He especially warned us not to buy furniture before we bought the house, apparently he had seen this ruin deals.

2

DeVulgariEloquentia t1_isoesjl wrote

For those who don't read the article, 6 out of 10 of the agents they contacted offered to set up the buyer with fraudulent documents.

67% of all suspicious mortgages are ultimately found to be this sort of fraud.

Imagine how housing prices would be affected if 60% fewer people were able to gain these extremely high, fraudulent mortgages. People would, gasp, have to only offer what they can actually afford!

0