Submitted by markskull t3_1131lrx in philadelphia
The Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission (DVRPC) us about to meet on ways to improve Roosevelt Boulevard, but the current meeting plan doesn't include the one thing nearly everyone can agree is a priority: A SUBWAY LINE!
Don't let these jerks ignore the fact that this would be incredibly helpful in reducing traffic and increase public transit in the area! Tell them you want them to at least consider this in their next meeting.
I actually think the feds will end up denying matching funds for the project. The cost effectiveness is so abysmal it's almost absurd. 4500 rider increase for 2 billion?
That $ 2 billion estimate seems to have been around for a while, so I suspect that it has risen significantly by now, while the projected ridership has not. (I think that the damn thing will cost nearly $ 4 billion if ever actually built.)
I bet projected ridership has gone down as more people that work the type of jobs near KOP are able to work from home.
The counties delivered PA to the Biden administration, they're not going to deny the money.
Why are people voting for KOP rail?
Simple: the vast majority of funding for Septa comes from the burbs and that is a project that is burb centric.
I live near KOP and I absolutely do not understand it. KOP is the least walkable suburb of Philly by a LARGE margin. Sidewalks dead end, there’s 6 lane highways with no crosswalks, everything is really spread out, truly terrible. Adding public transit doesn’t really seem to make a bunch of sense, unless people will be parking and riding into the city.
Stroads everywhere
It’s the stroadiest. I’m very pro-rail project, but they are going to have to unwind like 75+ years of car-centric/car-only/car-first infrastructure in KOP to make it a place that I would want to take public transit to.
It's unspeakably frustrating that SEPTA is exerting so much effort to build a transit line through places that are among the least amenable in the area to transit and that is likely to be very resistant to ever changing to accommodate it.
I've also gotten the impression that the malls, critical ridership draws, are not very enthusiastic about the project. I'm pretty sure that Lower Merion Township doesn't want it either. I don't really know who is pushing this project so hard, but whoever it is are a bunch of fools and real jerks too.
I think the mall and lower Merion doesn’t want the rail project because they don’t want city folk to come to the mall.
Nobody tell them about where the workforce to run the mall is coming from.
Thier heads might explode if they learn a substantial number of 202 corridor office workers also come from the city.
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There’s jobs in KOP, that aren’t in the city
What kind of jobs?
Mostly IT and tech stuff, pharma too, maybe even IT for pharma.
The suburbs do not fund septa, what are you talking about?
Because it's going to make getting to one of biggest job hubs in the region a lot easier.
It's never ceases to amaze me how users here conveniently keep forgetting that 40% of Philadelphians have to reverse commute out of the city for thier job.
Well the current alignment drops you nowhere close to LM and there are no sidewalks in KOP in the industry district where they plan to terminate the line. I do believe we need the KOP line but this alignment ain't good.
Idk but it got the least votes by far
Bus revolution deserves more love
Well city council is positioning themselves to block or otherwise hinder it as much as they can, so that's not going well.
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I think extending the BSL will cost about as much as the Roosevelt subway
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The BSL extension into the Navy Yard won’t increase ridership enough to qualify for federal funding aka it’s an even worse investment than KOP. If Roosevelt Blvd gets federal funding the cost for both could be similar for SEPTA even if the overall price tag is higher for Roosevelt
It would have the same ridership increase for half the cost as KOP
As I've said to others: Why not both?
This doesn't mean we shouldn't try and make those things happen, but there IS funding for the subway if SEPTA de-prioritizes the KoP Extension. Same with at least trying to get a BSL extension to the Navy Yard.
I think all of SEPTA’s capital money should go to cleaning up and upgrading the MFL and BSL and for Trolley Mod. All of these other projects have serious flaws.
Excuse the ignorance as I'm from SJ (15 min to KPHL).
Is there no rail that goes to the airport? That just seems wrong, for lack of a better word.
There is regional rail that you picks up from Jefferson / Suburban / 30th st, etc.
So I, who lives in south Philly, must take a bus to 16th and JFK, then go back down on the airport line. If the BSL just went south, I would save about an hour on airport trips.
Also in South Philly. 37 bus wouldn't be terrible if it didn't make a million stops. Bus revolution had plans for a new direct airport bus from Synder that seemed much faster. Hopefully that actually happens. I usually take the 37 if I can catch it but a direct frequent airport bus would be so great.
Surprisingly Atlanta is hard to beat with their airport lines I think red and gold that hits so many neighborhoods and costs $2. Would be the equivalent of BSL from NE going all the way to the airport.
Major agree, it's honestly an abysmally inconvenient trip to the airport for anyone not on or just off of Market. The airport should be accessible within 30 min by most neighborhoods in Philly by public transit.
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I've taken the airport line after connecting from the El when timing works out just right, but that's not sustainable since the trip is 1 hour or more, when a drive is 15 min. It's bafflingly bad. In the past 4 trips, I've only used transit once due to lack of frequency, and I'm 5 min from an El stop.
> unless you live within a 5 minute walk to Jeff, Suburban or 30th, you aren't taking the airport line
I live in south philly and often take the airport line. It's not bad if you're close to the subway.
Airport line from South Philly isn't a bad trip, the biggest issue is SEPTA early morning bus frequency. But coming back from the airport is super convenient.
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I agree with everything you said except for extending the patco. There truly is no reason to do so. It’s not worth the cost because people taking patco going in that direction can just transfer at 8th and market.
Yeah, the PATCO extension to the 40th st trolley portal isn't really worth it, but if it were extended all the way down woodland to Darby as an el, that would be good. I don't think anyone has seriously proposed the Darby el in 100 years, though.
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I wish you were the governor
I have to drive on the blvd every day to work and wish that I could never see that road ever again in my life
Nice.
Would be a massive undertaking but far more profitable and worthwhile than the KoP extension.
Hopefully it's 4 tracks, end to end. Express service would be appealing.
How far down/up would it go? Neshaminy Mall/Franklin Mills - Frankford?
Neshaminy mall down to broad st and onto the bsl express tracks. El would also be extended up bustleton to the boulevard for a transfer
Out of curiosity, what's the current projected cost?
They’ll never build it
It would be a good start, but I would also want something that goes through the middle of southwest/southeast Philly. I hate having to take a $15 Uber each way any time I want to go down there
this is the exact thing "bus rapid transit" would be for. you make the middle of Oregon Ave into a bus only lane, and articulated buses that stop every half mile.
it will never happen because "fuck you that's why" but it isn't some impossible solution; it exists all over the world and even some cities in the US.
here is a wikipedia on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit
here are the best in class in the US:https://www.gtt.com/top-6-brt-routes-2019/
SEPTA and the city desperately do not want to call anything they're doing BRT.
There's a bus on the boulevard that operates like BRT but they were INSANELY adamant about not calling it that.
It’s a direct/express bus, not BRT. Needs dedicated right of way to be BRT
Yeah, it's BRT-light, it doesn't have some elements required for full 'BRT' designation like pre-paying fares and shit too.
It doesn't have any brt elements except wider stop spacing afaik
level boarding, branding, improved shelters, transit signal priority, only high-ridership stops, etc.
again, there's a lot more that probably could be done (all-door boarding, prepay) but I think you can call it BRT-light without too much pain
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I’m sorry I didn’t see this earlier and I hope my comment still made it in time. Thanks OP
The Boulevard Subway is more of a lifesaver and stress reliver than trying to go out to the suburbs to a mall..
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i read the title and honestly thought “wow this person is really passionate about SUBWAY”.. the sandwich place… 👀
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lawd please what id do for a blvd line 😭
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How about we also ask for a spaceport while we are at it. I've always wanted to take a trip to Mars.
Ever watched “The Expanse”?
Yeah good show.
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I think it would be great to build this but let's be honest, it's never going to happen. Septa can barely afford to operate it's current system and is cutting service to existing routes. Better to focus on maintaining the current routes and make people feel safe when they are riding.
They are going to blow billions of dollars on KOP rail so they are clearly capable of spending money when they want to
With all the good jobs in KOP, they really should blow the money to do that. If I leave where I work in town my next job will likely be out in KOP
I was all for the KOP project for a long time, but the problem is (literally) the NIMBY's who opposed it going along an existing corridor that would have cut costs and made it efficient.
I'm still inherently for it, but between the ballooning cost and the overall low predicted ridership estimates, if I had to pick this project or the Roosevelt Blvd Subway, I'm rooting for the subway.
What about all the folks that still have to deal with 76 then? Ugh.
Edit: low ridership estimates? why would people that commute to KOP not use it if it did exist??? Who really likes driving that much to sit on 76 twice a day?
Thanks for the fucking downvotes those that have downvoted, grr.
I think more people, ideally, would use the KoP extension, but SEPTA's estimates have it low. Keep in mind people traveling 76 would both need to get to a station and then from their station of choice to wherever they need to go.
If KoP Station was right at the mall that would be amazing, but that isn't the case thanks to all the NIMBY's who opposed the project and forced SEPTA to change the route.
>If KoP Station was right at the mall that would be amazing
One of the proposed stations (Allendale) will be literally attached to the mall?
I'm might be confused. The idea is that a mall is going to attract high demand for Philadelphians to travel to KOP on the railroad? That's absurd. Malls are going extinct. I would never leave Philadelphia to go to a suburb for the sake of a shopping mall.
As much as I hate KOP it is not going extinct. The mall has tons of luxury stores that are not found elsewhere in the area, including Center City. It is a huge tourist draw. It serves all the households on the Main Line with money up the wazoo.
Malls such as Plymouth Meeting are failing but KOP will be fine.
That's interesting. I'm still very skeptical though, because the only time I hear about people that live in Philly travelling to KOP to do shopping, is when I read an article or reddit thread on the topic of the new rail line. I don't know any friend or coworker that does their shopping by travelling to suburbs. Everyone orders online. I've lived in Philadelphia for 7 years. I've never been to KOP to my knowledge, and doubt I'd ever want to go there ever in my lifetime.
And I've never heard anyone describe KOP as a tourist draw before. Tourists from where? I'm really curious because most people have never heard of KOP unless you're from this region.
KOP mall just expanded it's very popular and will continue to be well into the future.
The malls that are dying tend to be ones with a middle to lower economic appeal. High end is doing better than ever.
Additionally the build out of the KOP /202 region over the last decade has been nothing less than amazing. The DVRPC projects that area to grow faster than the city both in residential and jobs over the coming decades.
Last mile from to station is solved by these new and awesome personal battery powered gadgets that are also fun to ride! E skate, unicycle, scoot, bike, what have you. It’s more practical for the smaller e-transport devices especially, carry on train , ride a mile after you get off train.
While I largely agree, we both know that isn't a workable solution for a number of folks. To further complicate matters, the entire area is a car-focused death trap for pedestrians or anyone not in a car.
While there are some nearby offices, there are a lot that are a few miles away from the mall and that creates its own problem.
So it could be a great catalyst long-term, but that would really require Montgomery County to really change their zoning laws and focus on more pedestrian-focused solutions.
I’m gonna continue to risk injury and death by not driving a car around other cars and instead ride one of the listed things, or a motorcycle. Someone’s got to get out there and go against the grain of always using cars…
I’ve already got titanium in both legs from being hit on the sidewalk inside the city, rolling the dice on more medical repairs, fuck it.
Shame on them for making you confirm your comment with an email link. That's purposefully making it difficult to share an opinion with them
It's for engagement/information sharing purposes and common practice for public engagement type stuff.
Subways to single detatched homes now!
Urbanists should really focus on towns and neighborhoods up zoning and pedestrianizing the areas around the regional rail stations. The Roosevelt Blvd is a pipe dream.
Both. The real answer is both.
Roosevelt Blvd has the support, and possibly the funding, to create a great mass transit network that could fix a number of serious issues with that area.
We need better zoning and better pedestrian areas, but there's no point in doing only one set. It literally needs to be both improving existing infrastructure and expanding it to places where it could do the most good.
Especially for the Roosevelt Blvd. Upzoing those parking lots is going to change the landscape of the blvd for the better
I'm honestly not sure what would be harder to get done, building the RBS or up zoning along the Blvd. City council is allergic to in fill development, especially if it's by right and they can't get a cut of it.
I recently driven/bike down Delaware Ave by spring garden and the infill is amazing. Imagine doing that for the RBS line.
Ya there's less residents there to oppose Delaware Ave vs the Blvd, I don't see it happening.
can you share projections that Northeast Philadelphia is going to stop declining? If any subway extension happened would it make sense to build it to the navy yard where literal thousands of new jobs and new apartments are about to be built?
AGAIN, why not both?
Northeast Philadelphia has a substantial population, massive car use, and this would still be helpful for both people trying to get to and from the area and helping to slow its population decline. The area is built around cars, and if you're going to advocate for better zoning around mass transit and better pedestrian infrastructure, guess what underlying system helps to foster that?
I'm also advocating for an extension to the Navy Yard, too, and we really need both.
I'm pro both projects, but you do have a point about the decline. The drops in population in NE has been significant and pretty fast. On one hand, this could maybe help the areas around the stations, or it could end up having declined significantly by the time it's done and end up with worse areas around it like what happens with much of the BSL and El
Exactly. Honestly, I appreciate the guy who has pushed for the Roosevelt but I’m now to the point where I’m worried it’s just distracting from better enhancements and we will get nothing built
they could easily have the broad street line surface running for that portion but they don't want to.
ridership projections for the BLVD are estimated at 125,000 trips per day, about the same as the subway and the el.
Urbanism is about hating highways not helping. It's about demanding society change not dealing with budgets.
Logic, highways are not going away. But the US in general is refusing to build new highways. So only logic is expand the existing ones.
But we can expand transit for less space than a 4 lane highway.
Please insert urbanism bad comment here
Urbanism is not about hating highway, that's a brain dead take.
But speaking of not dealing with budgets, it's obvious you don't have a clue since the current cost of our road infrastructure is draining the economy. We're not paying to maintain it because we can't afford it.
Unfamiliar_Word t1_j8ngdtn wrote
Continuing to dedicate attention and effort toward the KoP Rail project, which I'm beginning to suspect might be too inherently cost ineffective for FTA to agree to fund, while leaving a larger, more ambitious but actively ignoring far higher value project reflects rather other than well upon the 'powers that be' in Southeastern Pennsylvania, not that we didn't already know.
Meanwhile, SEPTA is having a twitter poll (yeah, yeah, big deal, Twitter isn't real life et cetera) on the most anticipated projects. Things could turn around in the last hour, but it doesn't seem to be going KOP Rail's way. (To be clear, the other three projects are good ones; I voted for Reimagining Regional Rail myself)