To be fair, MLB has seen the dance the City does before and knows the beat and steps...

Can we just fish or cut bait on baseball in Richmond? We've delayed so long on repairing or replacing the Diamond that now the city will have to pony up $3.5 million to upgrade a stadium that will soon be torn down, one way or the other.

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Flying Squirrels are an asset to the city and I will die fighting on this hill. I hope we pony up or at least attempt to negotiate or appease the MLB because the new Diamond is going to be build whether or not we have a minor league team because VCU. It would be beyond infuriating to lose the Squirrels and Parney over this.

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The MLB has multiple billionaire owners who could peel off $3.5M and not even notice it, where are they?

Did you read the article?

“the city is allocating $3.5 million from its capital maintenance reserve fund to the current fiscal year’s capital maintenance budget”

This is expected to be approved Monday. Permits and contractors for the work have already been lined up.

Please put yourself in blackout mode again kthnx

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That’s not really how it works. There is some revenue sharing within the league, but that mainly goes to player’s salaries. It’s more helpful to think of each team as its own franchise. They control their own facility and its operations.

It’s a multibillion dollar project that will completely transform a sizable chunk of the city for generations and you “despise how much combined effort that stupid diamond sucks up from public discourse” … ? Do you know the whole project is so much more than just the Diamond but it totally hinges on there actually being a new Diamond? Why do you think this shouldn’t be discussed at length?

The City has known about these deficiencies in the facility for years. Why would they not stagger the renovations over those years in order to stay on compliance with the league, and reduce the upfront costs? Diamond District redevelopment was clearly going to take a long time, why not keep the league happy in the mean time

Just the owner of the SF Giants is worth $6.1B. If he financed the stadium all on his own he'd still be worth $6.1B. It's the equivalent of someone with $10k in the bank spending $5.75ish.

I really hate rob manfred. Give us bud selig back please. This mfer must go. You thing Roger goodell is bad? Rob manfred says hold my beer.

Would be great but that’s just not going to happen. The deal is that we provide the park and the team provides the jobs and economic benefits. The Giants/squirrels will go to the next best city in a heartbeat of we don’t keep up our end of the bargain

What kind of jobs are they providing? The place is open for a few hours a week and I can't imagine there's a lot of salaried employees there.

Not sure why all the downvotes this feels pretty accurate.

The front office is open year round and a quick check of their page on the MiLB website shows about 34 employees who would beg to differ. You don't just whip up 4-5 months worth of events, food, beverage, and entertainment the month before the season starts. Plus all the directors and managers of the different aspects of the ballpark help support jobs of the vendors that supply all the things necessary to have a functioning park. Plussss that doesn't include the part time staff that support the diamond for the whole spring/summer, nor does it also include the roster of players, trainers, coaches who are still employed by the squirrels that spend the off season playing in international leagues.

explain to me again why the city is on the hook for a private business expense?

Now think about the benefit $3.5M could provide to schools in the same terms

Some people really want us to lose one of the only super cool things we have I see 👀👀👀

Correct. Schools do deserve $3.5M too. It should be both/and, not either/or.

Unfortunately the city's not an endless supply of money. The franchisee should pay for it, it's not like people who live here get free tickets to the games. If McDonalds was going to close the store on Broad and 18th St unless they spent $3.5M in renovations would you support the city giving them the money too?

Because sports

That’s not really how net worth works… “estimated net worth” just means appraised value of all properties and assets. Wealthy people do not usually keep a whole lot in the way of liquid assets (cash, gold, etc). Whatever is liquid, is likely slated to be spent on upcoming bills/payrolls/cost of living expenses. Very rich people tend to live on “relatively” tight budgets.

Yes, he could easily mortgage a property or something but I’m just trying to say it’s not necessarily that cut and dry. Charles Johnson doesn’t have 6.1 billion sitting in the bank.

It’s a private industry making money off people that would die on that hill. Let the MLB invest in their um “investment” they profit from

Leaches

Because it already has been discussed, at length

Also, the city is an asset to the MLB…

The city did not come to an agreement with a single McDonald's to maintain a specific standard of operating, but they did however come to that agreement with the SF Giants when they agreed for their affiliate team to play here. I'm arguing that the city should pay for the fees they agreed to pay for, while agreeing with your hypothetical unrelated point about public schools at the same time.

Moreover, the diamond and our baseball team are a significant driver of tourism and revenue for the city that warrants reinvestment. Why would they be actively planning to redevelop that entire area as "the diamond district" if it was not. The flying squirrels are arguably one of the most popular minor league teams, leading the league in overall attendance season after season. It would objectively be a horrible decision to lose them by not investing money that the city already knew it would have to invest.

I don't think a ton of people are traveling to Richmond, staying in hotels, going to restaurants because of the Squirrels. It's mostly people from the surrounding counties (whose tax dollars wouldn't be going to the team) and they eat at the stadium and go home afterwards. That piece of land is being developed no matter what, it's right next to Scott's Addition and is a very obviously underutilized piece of real estate. They're calling it the diamond district for marketing, but it could be called anything and developers would be drooling over it.

Blame Richmond, not MLB. The team was promised a new stadium 14 years ago to even move here in the first place. They’ve been told to make improvements to the diamond multiple times.

It’s cool guys they’re getting rid of cash transactions

Who gives a f**k. Just take more of my money. I have 4 years till I hit the school crisis. /s

Because sports, people bemoan taxes but then want to waste it on charity to rich people and companies. There is no economic benefit in funding stadiums. I've posted all the relevant facts before when people wanted to give half a billion to Snyder.

Billionaires use SBLOCs to buy whatever they want. The idea that they’re illiquid and incapable of spending a few million dollars whenever they want is a myth they perpetuate to avoid being held accountable for how they’re all terrible leeches on the rest of us.

Also needs a parking deck

The city, not the Squirrels, owns the Diamond. They Squirrels can leave any time they want. VCU also uses that dump. Hopefully we can get both of them a new stadium. A Double-A stadium isn't much bigger than what a college team needs.

The city owns the Diamond.

My thoughts exactly! Squirrels owner is worth over 100mil and the Giants organization isn’t exactly hurting for cash.

but I don't like sports ball, so therefore investment bad. stupid NIMBY.

I dunno. Maybe because people don't know the expression "fish or cut bait" means "stop dilly-dallying and make a decision"? I wasn't taking a stand for or against funding a new stadium or supporting baseball in Richmond. I would just like the city to decide one way or the other and do something. At this point the $3.5 million is wasted money that could have been better spent on a new stadium if the city wanted to make professional baseball in Richmond a priority, or conversely, on schools or other civic needs.

I don't particularly care which way the city goes. Baseball is fine and I enjoy it. Schools have critical needs and teachers should be better paid. I just hate wasting limited funds because they can't make up their minds.

MLB and the Squirrels can suck it.

Hmm, TIL. Thanks, that does make sense they would have a way to leverage assets without liquidating..and makes sense they would want to conceal it.

Actually players in the minor leagues make really crappy wages, most need a second job to cover rent. The owners don’t pay the players and get the cities and states to cover all their costs. Fuck that noice and fuck MLB

Easier pill to swallow than the cost of the red paint on the street.

Why the hell was the ownership of the diamond moved from the RMA (where it should be, it’s a regional amenity) to the city alone? Is it because of diamond district development and we didn’t want it going to the counties(where it shouldn’t be going anyway)?

A new ball park should pay for itself several times over. Every ticket, beer, soda, hotdog, candy, luxury suite, merch, event at the park are taxed. The businesses around the ball park get busy before the games. Last game I went to, we couldn't get into Fat Dragon or Boulevard Burgers. A nice new park would be an even bigger draw. The alternative would be losing the Squirrels, tearing down the Diamond, some corporation buys the space and builds a Target there.

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And yet no ball park or arena or football field anywhere in the country has ever made a profit nor have they paid for their own maintenance.

Fat Dragon consistently has a wait. The current Diamond was the best in minor leagues when built and yet over its lifespan it spawned no business in the area, not so much as a hotdog stand.

I’d like for those in Richmond that enjoy baseball to have a team to support, I’m not a monster, but this is extortion and it is offensive and tone deaf for a billion dollar organization to demand public money for something so frivolous.

Yeah it gets pretty convoluted since the squirrels are in the minors. I did mean that the revenue sharing goes to paying salaries in the majors. Minor leaguers do make jack shit.

You are misinformed on this whole thing.

This narrative that all money should go to schools, and that they would somehow all of a sudden produce much better results if only they had more money, is a joke. Tell me how the $3.5mm will be allocated to actually produce better academic results. There already have been many tax increases in the city "for the schools."

Literally part of the reason the AAA Braves left was bc the diamond was in disrepair. Not the whole reason, but a part of it. That was years ago.

Talhimer has some massive plan to purchase the whole complex from the city and renovate it into a whole area. Similar to the Battery and Truist Park for the MLB Braves in Atlanta (highly recommend visiting if you haven’t and are a baseball fan, great atmosphere) But that plan is definitely years away from ever being put in motion, and by then the squirrels may be gone.

I don't think so, I just think it's ridiculous to give a billionaire money for his toys while people in the city go without. I guess you have a different opinion and you're welcome to it.

You could hire more teachers or pay existing teachers more to retain them. You could provide after school programs that will keep kids out of trouble in those crucial hours between when school lets out and when their parents get home. Enhance the lunch programs so that we're providing healthy, good food. All kinds of things.

We are not writing a check to a billionaire, you know it’s not that simple. This agreement and business between MiLB and the city is mutually beneficial, they would not engage in it if it were not. Keeping up our end of the bargain is the least shitty thing we could go in order to keep reaping the benefits of this agreement. You keep reducing the whole thing to some slogan about “fuck the rich” which is ignoring the ground rules (pun sorry) that were set out when the franchise came to Richmond

It is that simple, the Squirrels are a feeder team for the SF Giants and the SF Giants owner is worth ~$6,100,000,000. We are going to give them money, with no clear direct benefit to the city, and they're still going to charge us to come see the games and overcharge us for the hotdogs and beers we get there. It's a for profit enterprise.

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>This agreement and business between MiLB and the city is mutually beneficial, they would not engage in it if it were not.

You have a lot of faith in the same city government administration that brought us the Commanders Training Camp, which was a boondoggle from start to finish and never produced the results they said it would.

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>You keep reducing the whole thing to some slogan about “fuck the rich”

Weird, when I ctrl + f for "fuck the rich" the only time I see that is your post.

Alright have a good day. I’m not doing this

Sometimes you've got to know when to hold em and when to fold em

This is how all sports works and sometimes entertainment... It's a good ribbon cutting thing...

You’re a hoot

They've never turned a profit in net sales but in tax revenue it brings in a lot of money. And again, VCU uses the stadium too. And the Diamond might have been great for a few years back when it was built but it's been a dump for 30 years. I moved up here from Hampton Roads in the early 90's. Norfolk tore down Met Park because it was suc a shit hole and built Harbor Park. I remember my first trip to the Diamond thinking that even divey-ass Met Park, that was torn down, was much nicer than the Diamond. That was 30 years ago. Meanwhile Harbor Park in Norfolk is packed every night with a Triple-A team, thirty years later.

This is one of those things that sets Richmond apart from other cities to me, the lack of commitment to entertainment venues.

Between this and the coliseum, I just don't understand why the city has such a problem maintaining and building venues like this?

Completely agree, if private individuals want to fund a baseball diamond then great. I very much doubt the flying squirrels contribute $3.5 million to the city in the same timeframe. This money could be better spent on our parks but Redditors love their baseball. I mean we have a park that's almost completely inaccessible now because it needs a new bridge and we are throwing this money into something soon to be demolished.

Lol the MLB will move the team, they don’t care if it’s in Richmond or not

Is the diamond not one of the ugliest parks you've ever seen? Usually baseball parks are a hole in the ground and the concourse opens up at street level. At the diamond they built bleachers and make you climb up. It's so bad.

And yet not only does the flying squirrels have the best attendence in their league, they have much better attendance than norfolk in their fancy new stadium. I think many inprovements could be made to inprove the property but a total tear down is a waste of taxpayer money. Richmond has a ton of other problems that would be better served with that money.

No, it will cost MLB 3.5 million. No city money for a private enterprise.

The Squirrels have better attendance than a lot of other events in Richmond. The attendees need to be taxed, not the residents of the city. It's crazy how the ticket prices have gone up without any benefit. Is it ticketmasters fault? I paid a hefty price the last time I went, but to be fair it was on the 4th of July and the fireworks show was better than usual. I remember getting decent seats for 16 dollars a few years ago.

The area does benefit having the games, I'm sure the nearby restaurants are packed before and after games.

Plenty of studies that show stadiums are a net loss for every city that’s ever built one

> the flying squirrels have the best attendance in their league

And the Squirrels are absolutely going to leave if they don't get new stadium. The Tides have been in Norfolk since 1961. We lost the R-Braves in 08.

Good let them, when a new stadium is built and MLB comes begging to be in the number #1 market again maybe Richmond can demand a share of the profits rather than being the MLB’s sugar daddy

2016, but still pretty recent. Richmond isn't even a top-20 MiLB market in value.

I’d rather feed kids and improve our roads than pay for a private business’ upkeep expenses. MLB is a multibillion dollar industry, if they can’t pay for their own infrastructure why should the tax payers of our city?

Because fuck giving a multibillion dollar corporation free money

Blame MLB for building a business model off of being given free money from cities that need to put it towards things that actually matter.

Because people in Richmond are sick of having our tax dollars thrown into private business ventures that don’t deliver on their promises, see Redskins training camp.

So it’s a scam

I mean when you have enough support is it a scam. It's poorly spent money that everyone agrees on.

That's why I was against the coliseum, it doesn't make financial sense and Richmond shouldn't be in the game of subsidizing entertainment.

Baseball is boring as fuck, we have art, music, the mother fucking James River. I don’t give a fuck about a bunch of men playing a game or want to throw away money that could be used to make our city a better place for families and children to subsidize a multibillion dollar industry that could afford to pay for their own infrastructure.

That deal is bullshit

Because that’s not how money works

So do you just not understand how money works?

I’d rather help the children of my city than give money away to private business that doesn’t even pay its players fairly.

Holy shit. It's been 14 years?! Where did the time go...

Penny wise and dollar foolish. With the new Diamond district coming losing the team now would be devastating. The lifetime value in terms of tax revenue of the team and the business squirrels games generate and will continue to generate in the surrounding area is greater than this expense

If Baseball was financially viable cities would not have to keep coughing up money to build their parks for them, but it’s not even after over a decade of the squirrels being here for some reason they can’t stand on their own feet despite being part of a multibillion dollar industry. It’s a losing proposition and a waste of our limited resources. We need to fix our schools, build mixed income housing, build community centers, fix our roads and build homeless shelters. Building a playground for rich people to save money on their private enterprise is a waste of cash and is the literal bottom of real priorities for anyone who understands how a city works.

It’s so telling in these threads who are the man children and who are the actual adults.

Jeez. Have you even been to a squirrels game? It’s an affordable family friendly event and generally a good time even if you don’t like baseball. A family of five can go out, fed and entertain the kids for way less then a dinner and a movie.

Enjoy spending time out doors? ✅ Enjoy local beer? Wait it’s priced cheaper than the brewery?! ✅✅ Enjoy supporting local businesses and charities? ✅ surprise, yes they do this too. Enjoy music? ✅ local bands play before every first pitch. Enjoy looking at fit men in fit pants? ✅✅✅ Enjoy looking at unfit men in wild/crazy pants? ✅

Sporting events at the minor league level are NOTHING like major league team and attending is hardly about the sport. You know, we can have all those other things you listed AND baseball. You don’t gotta shit on a whole collective of people just because YOU don’t like baseball.

We own the ballpark. The Squirrels are a tenant. The landlord has to keep the place up to date. It is an investment in Richmond’s own interest to keep the team here and happy.

A city with art, music, and a river? How unique!

If you think Richmond not spending money on this means it’s automatically going to kids and roads, you are gonna be really bummed if ever take time to learn how government budgeting works.

Also, as stated elsewhere, Richmond owns the Diamond. Not MLB nor the Squirrels.

Except that these types of venues have been shown time and time again to be a good investment for cities. See Charlottesville, Charlotte, Raleigh, Louisville, and Norfolk as examples

If baseball wasn’t demanding the city use our limited resources to pay for its infrastructure, I’d have no problem with it but every few years they try to hold the city hostage and it’s annoying as hell and it’s not an appropriate use of limited tax payer money. I’m all for people having fun, even things I don’t like or enjoy like baseball, but I’d rather have good schools, better roads, and things that benefit everyone not just people looking to be entertained for the night.

Those things are all much cooler than a minor league baseball team.

No they have not, statistically these projects loose money. And why look elsewhere when you can look at the Diamond and the redskins training camp or any of the other schemes that have all had big promises and then fell flat.

Baseball doesn’t own the infrastructure, the city does.

3.5 million spent on a stadium means 3.5 million that can’t be spent on things that actually matter. As has been pointed out throughout this thread by many people, the owners of the Squirrels and their parent companies have the money, let them spend it.

Username does not check out.

The squirrels staying happy doesn’t mean anything for the city, the entire stadium will be torn down soon. Show me one shred of proof that having a baseball team here makes us any money after the expenses it takes in upkeep, infrastructure, and personnel to keep it going

they can take their shit and walk and it would only improve my life. I’m tired of the fireworks scaring my dog and I’m tired of subsidizing people who don’t need it.

Thank you. This is the better argument that I could have made.

I will add that if we lose the squirrels, the chances of getting another minor league team with the front office of the caliber that parney gives us is slim to none

I’d much rather see that land used for more mixed income housing than be used for a new stadium, the diamond district would be fine without it because those are things we actually need and land is at a premium in Richmond these days.

There is no evidence that the squirrels are making the city money. In all these years of these same arguments no one has ever shown that it makes more money for the city after the expenses it costs to keep it running. Statistically around the nation these are money losing ventures that cost cities money and make private business rich at taxpayer expense. It’s bullshit.

Oooo! Am I one of the man children?!

Sometimes love means not letting limited and needed community resources be channeled into the pockets of big business.

They need the stadium to make money, so it’s essential infrastructure to their business model and they should pay for its upkeep and development and construction of a new and improved facility, if they can’t then they are being subsidized.

Oh no. The government is subsidizing a private entity. Unheard of! Unacceptable!

If you don’t understand that using public resources to subsidize a for profit business that statistically looses money for cities who invest in them is a poor choice compared to using that money to invest in things that do improve our community and economy all because you like baseball then yes you have a child like mentality and aren’t approaching things as an adult

Sometimes people just can't live up to their username. I'm not sure your opening salvo there really gets the pass for your good intentions.

Sorry for caring about poor kids and wanting to not be ripped off by predatory private business practices. Love takes action and speaking out against injustice and preventing harm.

Do you support properly funding public park systems? That’s essentially what the Diamond is, it just also happens to have a viable business operating within it. I’m sorry your dog gets scared of the fireworks. Not fun.

Funny you say that. The Diamond District will include mixed income housing and lots of green spaces.

Oh lord please don't hurt yourself when you get off that soap box, it appears to be pretty high up there. You can't recognize those who may agree with your point from those who find the way you're delivering it utterly pointless but thats ok because all-you-need-is-loverighteousness.

Thank you for your utterly pointless comments. God bless you for wasting both of our time trying to antagonize me because I hurt your feeling by saying I don’t give a fuck about baseball and would rather help poor children and fix our city’s problems. You took a stand when dozens of other people who care more about sports than good fiscal and social policy also were also willing to take that stand.

Yes and if we don’t have a stadium there’s room for more! Nothing about the diamond district hinges on baseball other than the name

Truly love is everywhere. I see it now.

The diamond is not analogous to a public park in any way. Can I go there and play a pick up game with my friends? Is it open to the public free of charge? It’s a venue for for-profit ventures and nothing else and if the business was truly viable it would not need public subsidies.

If you don’t understand that the flying squirrels is one of the least gross private entity that public resources subsidized, and overall it provides some good to the city and provides good to the community, you are a pot calling a kettle black.

Look, I get it. I understand your point. But there is ALWAYS something “better” to spend the money on. It doesn’t have to be an either or situation. Sometimes, it really is helpful to support private entities in this way. The Flying Squirrels is not worth this fight. The Training Camp? Absolutely. That was ridiculous. The proposed 1B in corporate tax cuts in the state budget because we have ‘a surplus of revenues’? Get the fuck out of here. That’s so dumb. The casino? The proposed coliseum? I Can get behind all of this.

The city doing something they promised they would do 14 years ago? Please pick a different battle.

Please provide a source for these statistics. Preferably for other minor league baseball teams, not the training camp because that is completely different.

Here is an article that links to several studies that show that minor league stadiums do not deliver on revenue for cities and are also a bad investment because the MLB is pulling teams out of even newly built stadiums because they are loosing hundreds of millions a year in failed business model.

https://reason.com/2020/12/31/these-cities-built-minor-league-ballparks-with-taxpayer-money-now-they-dont-have-teams-to-play-in-them/

Clicked every link in this article, none of which leads to a study. They all go to other articles.

And before the braves moved out after years of terrible play we had the yankees farm team. If we go down to single a that would be fine too. We cant make terrible financial decisions based on fear of change.

Literally has the highest attendance in the league

Whatever you say!

you can learn a lot with a simple google search

See those underlined words that say study? They link you to the studies.

>I’d much rather

yeah we get it. The thing is... and maybe no one has told you this before... the world doesn't revolve around you: some people like baseball. Some people aren't so biased they can see pros and cons to both arguments.

Cool so let’s throw millions of dollars and valuable resources away to subsidize a failing and predatory business that is a net drain on our money because you like a game for children whose owners are too cheap to pay for their own business needs. Brilliant

$3.5M is a drop in the bucket. Throwing the baby out with the bath water to lose the team over it. ::shrug::

It’s always a good idea to double down on a bad deal you are right