I’m more interested in your thoughts on endings, George

I would have preferred it start with the end of Aegon’s reign with Aenys and Maegor.

As a book reader it would have been very interesting to see Princes Aemon and Baelon before they died and see how Jaehaerys’ succession crisis was handled by a previous generation of Targaryens and nobles. However, what we got was enough, the cold open of the Great Council, the simple narration of what had happened and starting just before Queen Aemma’s death was completely adequate.

Less talking, more writing

I wish he would just come out and say that he's not gonna finish the books. It would also finally put an end to people (including me) getting annoyed/frustrated when he "wastes" his time doing other stuff.

In every thread that concerns Martin, more than half the comments are about him not finishing winds even if the winds is not the topic of discussion and it's the same thing over and over again.I want winds too, maybe he'll finish it maybe he won't.

Unpopular opinion: He doesn't owe anyone anything.

Why would he come out and say something that currently seems to be untrue? He's been more open an optimistic in the last 6 months than he has been in the previous decade.

He just had one of the most successful first seasons in TV history. He's allowed to talk about it

Ummm... Thanks for advocating?

>He doesn't owe anyone anything

The ONLY reason so many people read his books and recommend it to others is because there is an expectation that there will eventually be a complete story with an ending. There is an implicit promise that if you start reading the series, it will be concluded one day. He's one of the richest and most successful authors because of the people reading his books, and therefore owes the readers a satisfying conclusion.

You're welcome

I just finished the Dance of Dragons and thought it was very epic and worth reading

Thus the 'Unpopular Opinion'

I wasn't saying your opinion was popular. I was saying it's stupid.

I also wanted to see Baelon and Alyssa 😂 Alyssa especially dragging her two toddlers to ride on dragonback

Understandable✌. Have a great day.

Agreed. No story is owed a conclusion and he should only make continuations of the books if he wants to

He has been optimistic about the books being finished before, so if you take all his missed deadlines into account it really doesn't mean anything.

Unless he is secretly writing two (or more) books at the same time, I don't see him being able to finish either of his unfinished series in the ASOIAF universe.

Regardless of what he owes or not it’s kinda monotonous wading through endless “finish the books George” comments. Like nobody has anything new or interesting to say, it’s just repetitive.

Just finish the book dude.

Seeing baby Viserys and Daemon would have been adorable.

Nah. He doesn’t owe you anything, not a satisfying conclusion or even an explanation for that matter. You chose to buy his books and get invested in his story, clinging on to a nonexistent and unspoken social contract that is based on nothing more than your extreme sense of entitlement

That is all this is

(The Myrenese Knot tightens)

Imagine if all authors thought this way. The book industry wouldn't survive. Who wants to start a series and risk never knowing the ending? There HAS to be the expectation of completion or people just simply won't buy book series anymore.

> He's one of the richest and most successful authors because of the people reading his books, and therefore owes the readers a satisfying conclusion.

So are you saying that if he finishes the books and the ending sucks, he owes the readers that he rewrite his last book until they like the ending?

> Who wants to start a series and risk never knowing the ending?

Let me introduce you to television shows that get canceled before their story finishes.

Weirdly enough, no one ever holds a 10+ year grudge against television producers who are responsible for that.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. All we need to hear from him is “it’s done”. Til then, put a moratorium on post about grrm. I’ll capitalize it when you get the fucking book done George! Meanwhile who cares on the many ways it could’ve happened?!? I only cared about the one terrible way the other series ended.

Yep.

Thinking Martin is stupid for not finishing his story is a completely valid opinion. And probably true from both a fandom and business POV.

But he doesn't owe anyone anything.

No but he does owe an ending. Imagine he was honest with readers and said "hey guys you can buy A Game of Thrones but just know, this series will never be finished." Do you think anyone would buy the book? Of course people assume there will be an ending when they start the series. He owes all of his success to the readers so yes, he does owe an ending even if it's a bad one.

Yeah, they just hold them against the companies who produced the content. Not a day goes by where I don’t see “never trusting Netflix again after they cancelled x”

>no one ever holds a 10+ year grudge

You must not be on reddit very often. People here still talk about what a tragedy the cancelation of 10+ year old shows was. Remember Firefly?

Not to mention he has promised many times over that he will release it.

It's fine (not really) if he wants to give up. But he keeps promising it and that he definitely owes.

He also owes it to the publisher as well. Quite frankly I don't even understand how he hasn't been forced to release something.

>Quite frankly I don't even understand how he hasn't been forced to release something.

There is no way the publisher will release one of the most popular and best selling authors of all time from their contract. Even if there is a 1% chance he finishes it, that's definitely worth the risk. They are hoping he finishes the series as much as the readers are.

I definitely don't remember people writing passive aggressive comments whenever the Fox Network comes up, no.

Reddit owes all its success to its users. Does reddit owe me anything?

The very basic line of reasoning here is just really questionable if you think about it for a bit, and invites everyone to become entitled assholes. Which is, incidentally, how people act towards GRRM.

People saying "finish the book before you die" are the most selfish people on the planet

Finish your other series 1st chunky goddamnit

He doesn't owe u anything. He wrote the books and he doesnt want to finish them. It's just a book though,not the end of the world.

If reddit breaks its promises for what you'll get when you use it, then yes it doesn't deserve any users

And it's perfectly fine if you think he doesn't deserve any readers and you be an example of that. That's not what I'm complaining about here.

All these comments about the ending or finishing the books, you do know George is not going to read any of it right?

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Well he has released, "The Princess Queen", "The Rogue Prince", "The world of Ice and Fire", Tales of Dunk and Egg books, "Sons of the dragon", "Fire and Blood", among other smaller works since Dance of Dragons. So I mean he has published something

In a recent interview he's said that the Winds manuscript is, by his estimate, 75% done. He says he keeps revisiting chapters he's closed on and not liking how they are so he rewrites them, he admitted it's a problem but that when it's done it's done and that Winds is easily going to be bigger than Dance. But he knows the day it comes out that he will get asked "Where's A Dream of Spring?"

I think he's got all the plot points done, character arcs done too, or mostly done. So it's just a case of doing it and cranking out the pages. What he worries about is his publisher pushing back on him to make some changes or to split the book in two.

Im looking at my ASOIAF books right now... All 5. Its sad to think there wont be a 6th. And if it ends like the TV show, i dont even want a 6th.

It's definitely selfish, but GRRM is partly at fault for giving deadlines and not following up on them, multiple times.

I can totally understand that he likes to do other stuff, but I think he should at least be honest with his fans about it.

> What he worries about is his publisher pushing back on him to make some changes or to split the book in two.

This is a joke, right? TWOW is going to be a massive bestseller, his publisher can't wait to finally get that cash. They might want to split the book in two for profits, but who cares. And even if they split it, I don't think we'll get another AFFC/ADWD situation.

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If you're going back that far you may as well just start with the conquest tbh.

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He should pull his fucking finger out then the lazy lump

Have to think that, at some point, HBO is going to put the whole Targaryen dynasty on screen in some form or another.

I dont know, probably plenty of people disappointed or angry about the cancellation of Firefly still. Additionally when something is cancelled there is a some closure in knowing that it will never be finished. But with ASOIAF there is hope dangling in a thread that it one day will reach a satisfying conclusion, but the longer it takes the more resentment starts to grow from the possibility that it never will. The longer hope exists, the bigger the disappointment if it doesn't pan out.

>Unpopular opinion: He doesn't owe anyone anything.

This is a ridiculously popular opinion lmao.

Martin doesn't owe us anything sure, and that goes the other way around. We don't owe him infinite patience. Especially when he's actively taking on other projects.

He estimated he was a few months from finishing it years ago.

Well done, you figured out the internet.

Some people, sure, but not enough for a highly upvoted passive aggressive comment about it every single time the Fox Network is mentioned.

The closure argument is fair, though. Honestly, at this point it makes sense to just consider the books cancelled and be positively surprised when they happen after all.

The thing is, I think he still thinks that in the back of his head he's going to finish it some day.

Baelon was my favorite character from the book, and I loved that he and Aemon had what is probably the only “normal” sibling relationship full of love and admiration, in all of thrones (outside of maybe the starks lol).

Finish the damm books already. Or not. Frankly, we don’t care

Pop culture will have a field day with a main character named Aenys lmao. And he’s the nice one!

Weren’t they supposed to be 7?

I don't know why people have these bizarre conspiracies about George and the books. He is writing them. It's taking a long time. That's the truth.

I would have loved to see more of Jaehaerys purely because in the book he came across as such an amazing king and great man, that the showrunners/GRRM probably would have found smart and interesting ways to show that he wasn't as perfect as the book potrayed him to be. Same goes for his wife Queen Alysanne.

That it's all karma farming stupidity, yes.

I always swing back and forth between Aemon and Baelon with which one I like more.

I dunno about great man. Jaehaerys was a great king but kinda a shitty dad, especially to his daughters.

They'll do that eventually. Either we'll see the Conquest itself as a movie or as season 1 of a show revolving abounding Aegon/his sisters/and their sons.

If only he enjoyed writing as much as he loves talking about his writing.

The conquest would only really work for a mini series or something. The conquest is like 2 battles - 1 of which is essentially a trap where they very easily win. They breeze through everything because of dragons, Aegon wins over the admiration of everyone very easily, every minor conflict they instantly solve with dragons, the only campaign that is drawn out is Dorne and that's mostly them burning down empty castles because the Dorne's refuse to fight them.

This comment white knighting George, you know he’s not going to read it right?

White knighting? What are you an incel?

I just want actual topical discussion instead of blatant karma whoring that doesn't add anything to a discussion.

How about you muse on finishing a story you started 1996 - and have only released five parts to?!?!?!

• Published in 1996... Great googly moogly he started writing it in 1991!!!!

"He began the first volume of the series, A Game of Thrones, in 1991, and it was published in 1996. Martin, who initially envisioned the series as a trilogy, has published five out of a planned seven volumes."

Oh. Oh shit! I didn’t realize I was addressing the ultimate authority on Reddit on what qualifies as actual topical discussion instead of blatant karma whoring.

All these years I thought you were just a myth but here you are, being an obnoxious whiner live in real time.

Where did I claim I had any authority? Why did you suddenly get triggered, must have hit a sore spot when I called you an incel lmao

lol so caught up in your incoherent nerd rage that you don’t understand I’m matching your energy.

shockedpikachu.gif

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Viserys is the crying baby

While Daemon is laughing on dragon back

Yeah I don't understand it either. I know it's been a long wait and it wouldn't surprise me if there were several long periods of time where he was not making progress, but it's clear that right now (and the past two years or so) he has been moving along nicely. I am done making predictions on release dates, but it does feel like he's getting through it now.

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Compared to most other Targaryen men, he definetely came across as a saint. The ficitonal author was constantly full of praise for him. Him being a not so great father to his daughters is probably the worst thing about him that was mentioned. And even that was maybe a handful paragraphs in the multiple chapters about his reign. History books tend to be very kind to successful rulers like Jahaerys. I feel like there is more there. I bet GRRM has some twisted ideas on how he really imagined him to be.

Whereas with Maegor the cruel…you got a clusterfucked situation where multiple factions have a single objective

SURVIVE!!!

Writing is not the same as accounting or sewing. It’s a creative process that takes inspiration to do like any other art. Maybe he just couldn’t do it, maybe something in his life happened that blocked his mind from going to the place where his stories happen and he just couldn’t connect with the world he created for some time. It’s unfair to demand something from a creator that he cannot control.

i wish they would discuss maegor more - i think they should be more open to flashbacks. his story really highlights some of the topics that become relevant again with daemon and rhaenyra, like the second son complex and succession crises

I was under the impression there was a big age gap between Viserys and Daemon.

well, if the US doesn't melt down this november or the one in 2024 causing cascading economic catastrophes across the globe, halting most of what we consider societal normalcy, then yeah. i kinda think we'll see the whole targaryen dynasty on screen from HBO in some form or another [nervous laughter]

The show doesn’t state the age difference but in the book there is a 4 year age gap.

Yeah I searched for it immediately after my post. I thought I heard a character on the show reference the age difference, but I'm not going to rewatch to see if I'm right.

He wants to do a time skip but a time skip brings with it its own issues. This is exactly why he's stuck; there's no elegant way to move the story along

Probably closer to 9 now

I never understood why ha didn't just timeskip dani alone, it's not like her story is really connected to everything else

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> There is an implicit promise

there is not though, literally there isn't. It's not even that unique for literature to end up unfinished.

How would that work? You have to time skip everything

because dany's events are far removed from what happens to anybody else you can just write her attacking KL and nobody would bat an eye, I doubt anybody really cares about the mereneese knot.

I understand it's hacky writing and really devalues the whole thing, but I just hope he wraps it up in his lifetime

WELL HOW ABOUT WE START WITH HOW GAME OF THRONES ENDS FIRST MOTHERFUCKER.

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I would have loved to see that as well, but if you think about it, it would have made the start and shift of this season a lot more predictable. I’m ok for where they started the show in the timeline.

I was gonna pick up the book and start reading it. HotD is only a chunk of the book, right? Is it a large piece of it or just a small section?

Yep it’s 60,000 words. Finished it in 3 days and now I’ve got 4 seasons worth of content memorized

What a weird ass comment

This is a dumb take. By this logic Breaking Bad could only work for a mini series since it is a simple plot which can be seen to a reasonable conclusion. If you have good writers, then you could make it into a full series

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Alysanne was a living saint in the books, and if she's ever adapted I rather they keep her that way. They are rare, but true good historical fogures sometimes existed.

Well what premiered in the past six months that may have needed some hype?

GRRM was also optimistic when GOT was airing. He wants fans to be hyped about the universe. He wants them to think a conclusion is coming soon. But really he is just marketing the show, which is smart. That's why he was suddenly optimistic around HOTD premiering.

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A book to base it on, maybe?

Ok, but how big of a chump would we have to be to believe THIS time he means it?

He's made promises over and over and failed to deliver.

He's been writing Winds of Winter for the last 11 years with no end in sight it's not even supposed to be the final book in the series. The guy is 74 and very overweight, it's very unlikely that we'll see the end of this series (unless someone finishes it for him posthumously I suppose).

King Rob talked about the events going on all the time with Daenerys. It's not that far removed.

yeah but that's in book 1, her most recent story isn't really that well connected

He could pretend her timeline was separate than the other characters. But that wouldn't make sense when Tyrion meets up with her.

It's not much of a conspiracy to question whether he'll ever finish when it's been a decade, he can't stick to a schedule, and he's an old man.

Probably 8. Winds of Winter being the 6th, A Dream of Spring the 7th and something else the 8th. Or maybe he would end at 7 books.

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yeah it's dumb i was already a little lifted

>previous decade

Says it all really

Rather than musing on how it could have started, he should probably wite about how it will end.

It takes up almost all of the second half of the book.

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Actually, Viserys was the laughing baby.

As an author, I don’t agree. There’s nothing about writing, or any creative pursuit, that makes it somehow magical and different. It’s just a job like any other.

I think people talk about ‘inspiration’ and ‘the muse’ and ‘writer’s block’ to avoid the simple fact that writing is work, and human beings don’t really like to work.

None of my novels ever got written by sitting around waiting for The Muse. It’s a habit; pen to paper every day. Hard work and discipline are mandatory. Magic inspiration dust is optional.

Well with all due respect you’re not A Song of Ice and Fire author and equating yourself just because you also write is a stretch.

People talk about writing and other products of a mind that need to exercise imagination like this because imagination is a muscle. Once you hurt your muscle you can’t run for a time and mental health matters. You don’t know him.

He does. He is still writing a ton. I just think he's lost the passion for A Song of Ice and Fire.

No, I didn’t write ASOIAF, but I do feel somewhat qualified to comment on the profession we share and which I teach to students.

I can’t comment on his mental health. Don’t know his personal circumstances. All I know is that the idea he can’t finish his series because of ‘inspiration’ is complete rubbish.

“Inspiration” is essentially a headspace that is connected to mental health first thing, if you conceptualize it in a way that sounds legit. As someone who published both research works (and could do that even in the worst times of my life because it’s simply work) and fiction, that I did struggle to retrieve at times, because going to the headspace of imaginary worlds and events when people close to you suffer is challenging and there is a block, I can tell you that it absolutely is not “rubbish” and you have no authority to speak on it whatsoever. The greatest minds of civilizations couldn’t finish their works, destroyed it, destroyed themselves over it, but sure, it’s rubbish lmao