Submitted by WaterChestnutII t3_117pir1 in DIY
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Comments
porcelainvacation t1_j9d9lxv wrote
They can be 24” OC, especially in older buildings.
WestWoodworks t1_j9di6v4 wrote
I’m currently renovating a house with 19.2 OC main floor joists, 16 OC main floor studs, 24 OC attic joists and roof rafters.
The attic joists also simply meet end to end in the center over a non-load-bearing 2x4 wall with a single top plate, and zero headers in the doorway openings in said wall.
Point load, and a great many other pretty essential things, basically don’t exist.
Shockingly, it’s one of the straightest, most level and plumb homes I’ve ever worked on… which likely has a lot to do with the fact that it’s all rough cut old growth Douglas Fir. Beautiful lumber, and still really straight.
But yeah… it’s a 1920s house built by the original occupant. The client is that guy’s granddaughter.
Is_This_A_Thing t1_j9e59zy wrote
19.2 is a metric layout. Some tape measures have little black diamonds on this layout.
scofus t1_j9eaf1e wrote
Metric? Isn't it just 1/5 of 8 feet?
dickbaggery t1_j9eeyff wrote
487.68mm centers.
Dsiee t1_j9ekhqu wrote
That ain't no metric layout. 450mm is.
TheCreat t1_j9egdnd wrote
48,768 cm doesn't really scream metric to me. 50 cm would be 19.685".
This seems just weird and random? Might've just been what evenly decides one (or some) of the walls or something?
Dsiee t1_j9ekmei wrote
Metric doesn't use 50cm as a common spacing. It is all 300, 450, 600, 900, etc. basically using 1200 mm increments a base metric and then using factors of that.
WestWoodworks t1_j9ie5nm wrote
It isn’t metric. It’s just the only way to divide eight feet into five even parts.
It was meant to simplify, but it failed. Which is why it didn’t really stick.
MortalGlitter t1_j9e7txp wrote
>19.2 OC main floor joists, 16 OC main floor studs, 24 OC attic joists and roof rafters
My eye is twitching Hard reading this.
WestWoodworks t1_j9idylt wrote
It’s less than ideal. Hahaha.
shalafi71 t1_j9dgabi wrote
LOL, my house has both. Drove me nuts trying to hit in my outdoor closet (interior wall).
ChainOut t1_j9dlbgi wrote
My house was built in the 90's and has some on 16" and some on 24". Annoying.
EmptyAirEmptyHead t1_j9dsxpo wrote
24" is non-load bearing interior walls. Some interior walls are load bearing depending on the span of your roof. 16" is load bearing.
gravitologist t1_j9e5nhp wrote
24 can be load bearing too if you do stacked framing. In regions w low live loads it’s common and more than adequate.
PersnickityPenguin t1_j9e8drp wrote
“Advanced” framing
Dsiee t1_j9ekobf wrote
Well "Cheap" framing doesn't sound quite as nice on a quote.
gravitologist t1_j9fkfsb wrote
Well, yes, there is less lumber and thus it’s less expensive. But it is arguably a superior construction method because there is less thermal bridging and so the insulation performs better.
Dsiee t1_j9ix1dp wrote
I agree, I used much of the methodology in my recent build but it is still cheaper.
WestWoodworks t1_j9dzwz1 wrote
Eh… not always… not even usually, in my area. At least for interior walls.
Typically only walls perpendicular to the joists are load bearing (though there are rare exceptions).
Load bearing walls should all have proper point load (translating the actual load all the way down to the foundation in a direct path).
Though not always required depending on the region, double top plates are almost always used for load bearing walls, and not for partition (non loading bearing) walls. This is especially noteworthy if you are in a situation like I am right now with 19.2 OC main floor joists, 16 OC main floor studs, and 24 OC joists and rafters in the attic/roof. The double plate gives you a bit of latitude to work with for adequate point load.
For simplicity and consistency’s sake, I frame every wall at 16 OC in a typical stick built home. And that’s typically the case for most other builders in my area.
But, it’s also worth noting that some areas are fully ok with 24 OC 2x4 walls throughout. I definitely don’t recommend it. But you can get away with it in some places without a fuss.
Then, of course you get into engineered lumber, trusses, etc., and shit gets exciting. Suddenly, you have no interior load bearing walls, exterior load bearing walls are mostly header to accommodate an insulting number of floor to ceiling windows… all sorts of tomfoolery and poppycock.
But, anyway… when in doubt consult a structural engineer… don’t be that asshole that has to dig someone’s dead dog out of the rubble of the house you just destroyed by removing something you shouldn’t have. Engineers are often pompous douche bags (at least in my area), but they’ve saved my bacon a few times when things weren’t so cut and dry because of prior shoddy work that disguised major structural issues.
hicow t1_j9e6dd3 wrote
And some newer - it's more efficient to use 2x6s on 24" centers vs 2x4s on 16s, in terms of exposure for exterior walls.
But it's also worth knowing older houses took "on center" measurements as more of a suggestion. I insulated the crawlspace in my 120-year old house last year and the joist spacing was interesting, to say the least.
porcelainvacation t1_j9e9hiw wrote
It only means anything to have even on centers when you build with sheet goods.
[deleted] t1_j9dhzcu wrote
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twowheeltech t1_j9d9pse wrote
Fun fact. My house was built in 1939. The guy who built my house must not have known about 16" on center, he also didn't own a tape measure. Or a level haha
AdministrativePie865 t1_j9diop1 wrote
Mine is from 1850, interior walls are 18" on center, studs the wide way. Exterior are 14" o.c., everything is rough cut chestnut real 2x4, and sheds nails unless you drive dead straight; I think it's half petrified. Balloon frame.
Stud finder is useless, it's all plaster and lath, I'm still replacing knob and tube, slightly complicated by needing to work around the defunct pipes from the gas lighting the knob and tube replaced. I tore out some 1.5" drains that had an actual inside diameter of less than 1/2" due to decades of buildup.
And yet it still feels more solid than any modern house I've been in, the insurance company says replacement cost is 480k (sale price was 109k). 18" thick stone foundation.
throwsaway654321 t1_j9e6ww2 wrote
Of course it's more solid, it's built with real building materials. Modern "16 inches on center" bullshit was drafted based on using the cheapest 1 3/4x2 7/8 softass yellow pine available on clearance from Lowes. Modern homes are a fucking travesty, I've worked on so many $750k McMansions and $300k shitbox condos that are going to be falling apart in 7 years it's depressing. My ex-wife and I had a mail order Sears house built in the 50s that was more astonishingly well built than literally any new house I've worked on in the past decade.
shikuto t1_j9e87f2 wrote
When I build my house/recording studio, I’m going with steel studs. It’ll end up outlasting any of the $10M+ homes I worked on a couple years ago. Tragic.
Dsiee t1_j9ekvjd wrote
Have you worked with the lightweight steel studs? They make a 2x4 look solid af. Steel light framing is awesome when it is well engineered but if it is done wrong it can twist and crumple into a heap.
shikuto t1_j9envmp wrote
I had half of a really long comment drafted up, but I decided to scrap it for something a bit more succinct.
My whole life - albeit only just shy of 28 years - has been around construction. My earliest memories involve working on buildings, either with my parents rehabbing homes, or with my father on job sites where he was a masonry foreman. Taught me how to fire someone when I was three, by having me do it myself. I then went to spend most of the last 10 years as a commercial electrician.
All that to say: yes, I have extensive experience working with steel framing members. I’m aware of many of their pitfalls, and I still think that for my application, they’re vastly superior. It would be all but impossible to find lumber straight and long enough to make studs for most of the rooms of the studio. And having to stitch multiple pieces together in order to get the height adds a ton of time and material costs.
Plus, I’m doing it all myself. Or, as much as I am willing to. Which pretty much means no concrete or Sheetrock finishing. I’ll do all the form work and trenching and rebar for the concrete, but I’m hiring professionals to pour and finish it. For one: concrete sucks. Secondly, that’s a job that I am certain they will do better than me. And the same goes for Sheetrock finishing - I’ll hang it the way it needs to be hung for a recording studio. From there, they’re taping, mudding, sanding, and painting. If the rockers don’t paint, I’ll contract that out as well.
Final pro: when I eventually go to make the structure mixed use, when I open the studio as a business, having steel framing will simplify the process. It isn’t flammable.
To assuage any concerns you may still have: one component of the process that I will not be handling (entirely) on my own is engineering and design. I’m drafting floor plans currently, and then I will hit the engineering tables and websites and forums until I have a solid plan for the structure. Then l’ll draw up a preliminary structural print and send it to some engineering buddies I’ve made over the years for criticism and recommendations. After a few revisions of this - for all of my drawings, not just the structural - I’ll be sending them over to different firms than my friends work at to get them reviewed and stamped.
Sorry for the still rather long response to what was in all likelihood a rhetorical question.
Tl;dr - Yeah, and I’ve taken the pros and cons into consideration, along with a healthy dose of planning for how I’m even going to plan it out.
Garfield-1-23-23 t1_j9emlc1 wrote
I'm looking at a house right now (Philly suburbs) that was built in 1849. Everything is level and plumb, which I've never seen before in a house that old. Most fucked-up layout I've ever seen: you go up the stairs and right into the bathroom, and then you access the two bedrooms from the bathroom (the house originally didn't have a bathroom at all, of course). It's one thing to be banging on the bathroom door because you have to go, but another to be banging on the bathroom door because you have to go.
not_another_drummer t1_j9dch3q wrote
16" on center might not have been code in that area back in 1939 when lumber was rough cut 2" by 4" . Also, I expect some of the house may have settled in the last 83 years.
gadget73 t1_j9dhix7 wrote
have seen things that I'm pretty sure were spaced based on the hammer length. All evenly spaced, just at no interval that made any sense.
not_another_drummer t1_j9rq81l wrote
Yes, I've seen framing done by hammer length. Those were different times.
WestWoodworks t1_j9dj7ry wrote
There really wasn’t any sort of cohesive code requirement of any sort until 1950. What we (at least in the US) refer to as the International Building Code wasn’t even established until 2000.
It’s been pretty much a piecemeal endeavor since Ye Olden Time.
~EDIT~ Fat finger number correction.
LiveStalk t1_j9do1u1 wrote
IBC was 2000, UBC was 1927.
WestWoodworks t1_j9dwi8f wrote
UBC was indeed initiated in 1927, but was only really used in the western United States. It was based in California, if memory serves.
The first national level building code was formed by BOCA (Building Office and Code Administration). The compiled code was first released in 1950, a full 35 years after the inception of the organization.
There are numerous state and regional codes that predate all of the aforementioned, of course.
But the first cohesive compilation of truly national code requirements was indeed in 1950.
WestWoodworks t1_j9dvsd9 wrote
Oops. Fat fingered it. 2000 for IBC is correct. Solid catch.
stupid-id t1_j9dh2ld wrote
Feel your pain. 1933 house. Not a single square anything anywhere
WestWoodworks t1_j9e1mn6 wrote
You’d be hard pressed to find a brand new house built last year that’s actually square.
Most people would be shocked at just how rough the rough framing gets.
As a GC that likes to do the framing personally, I try to keep it as square as humanly possible… it isn’t fine woodworking. But I think it should be real close. 89° - 91° is typically not going to give you too much sass at finish time.
If nothing else, it keeps my subs from bitching too much.
On a similar note… I’m constantly surprised by how few framing crews I see that don’t use an eight foot level and a power plane to dial in the final framing. Some of these novice and journeymen guys don’t even know what I’m talking about when I bring it up.
It’s sad how we went from an industry largely made up of craftsmen to a bunch of meth heads pretending to be installers. Most guys will talk a big game about being a craftsman, but their idea of level and plumb has you searching for their meth pipe.
There are still a bunch of really solid guys out here getting the good work done. But it’s so hard to find them in the sea of shitbags.
And, in my experience, shitbags do shitty work. And it shows when you see just how far shit is off square, and considered “good work” these days. Scary, if you ask me.
koalamonster515 t1_j9dusy1 wrote
Hey, that's when my house is from! And everything is weird sizes, and much of it is slightly crooked.
SandiegoJack t1_j9els7g wrote
I’ve had to stop going purely off measurements for my house when working on projects. Everything needs to be dry fit at every step.
Nothing is 90 and nothing is level.
twowheeltech t1_j9duvgx wrote
Sigh. It makes working on anything in the house super frustrating. I hate it
fangelo2 t1_j9dlxev wrote
My first house was built in 1841. None of the studs were the same spacing. In their defense, there wasn’t any 4x8 plywood or anything like that, so they just put the studs wherever they worked out with the wood that they had.
WestWoodworks t1_j9e0h8j wrote
In my neck of the woods, we see a lot of 19.2 OC in homes from that era. But, depending on your region/state, there may have also just been no enforced building codes at the time… meaning it very well could be totally random.
I’ve seen “headers” over main entry doors made out of weird shaped scraps of beadboard of all stupid nonsense.
A lot of times they just used whatever bullshit they had within reach. Especially in depression era buildings.
Garfield-1-23-23 t1_j9em9y2 wrote
My parents bought a lake house in Ohio a couple of decades ago. When we gutted the interior, we found that the entire house had been framed with 4' lengths of 2x4 with none of the "studs" at exactly right angles. Most fucked up thing I've ever seen (except maybe the bathrooms in Atlanta where the floor was just non-PT plywood laid directly on the ground) but somehow the builder had ended up with the walls perfectly level and plumb.
magecaster t1_j9elrs8 wrote
My house was built in 59, and if yours is like mine, it's sturdy as shit, but has settled in places over the decades, not a huge deal!
twowheeltech t1_j9fcibs wrote
Definitely sturdy as shit! Crooked as hell, but sturdy
FromundaCheese t1_j9d5zso wrote
This, do this.
Sohn_Jalston_Raul t1_j9dvkps wrote
>Remember that they’re 16” on center
that's only if the walls were built to code by competent workers. If at some point the place had been remodeled by a previous owner's handyman cousin it could be a different story.
ridgecoyote t1_j9e0xoz wrote
Also, you can’t expect the studs to be 16 from an inside corner. Layout is mainly for exterior sheathing and starts from an outside corner which outside corner? You can’t tell. Tldr: stud finder.
sc00bs000 t1_j9ehhtj wrote
can also use an electrical "tongue" to push on through the point and figure out where it hits.
Make sure you switch off the breakers before doing so tho
TriGurl t1_j9eugzx wrote
Or 24” for older buildings.
pinacolada12345 t1_j9cz3kg wrote
Have you tried using one of those magnet stud finders like this? It finds a nail in the stud and sticks to it
Eenvy t1_j9d6gbg wrote
I have a similar one to this and it works great, it finds the drywall screws which SHOULD be in the studs.
tubbleman t1_j9dydgp wrote
>the drywall screws which SHOULD be in the studs.
<Sweats in "Amateur Drywalling">
CommonCut4 t1_j9e15d5 wrote
Cries in lath and plaster
Is_This_A_Thing t1_j9e5608 wrote
The magnetic or metal detecting stud finders actually work great for lath & plaster because it picks up the rows of nails where the lath is attached to the studs. At least that was my experience.
hicow t1_j9e5x9b wrote
I've got drywall over lath & plaster, so I knew to get a magnetic studfinder. But whoever did the drywall apparently felt it was fine to just go into the lath with the screws, rather than concern themselves with finding studs. I still have no idea where the studs are in most of my walls.
dickbaggery t1_j9eg8qm wrote
Mmm, previous owners. I've seen that move before. It's way easier than removing the plaster and fudging with misaligned studs, but they could've at least drilled some holes and located them. Some people just think wood is wood I guess. One of the first fixes in my house was to put a new light fixture in the kitchen and replace 3/4 of the kitchen ceiling because one of the previous owners thought it okay to mount a big metal light can to lath. And by "mount" I mean cut a hole and just rest it on the lath from above. Half the ceiling was sagging and threatening to cave as a result.
fujiko_chan t1_j9degd7 wrote
I have small but very strong magnets for my fridge, and they will stick to nails/screws in drywall. Easy and non-electronic way to find studs.
Masch300 t1_j9e5n98 wrote
I do the same. Have a fancy Bosch Pro stud finder. But a handfull of small (10x10x3mm) neodymium magnets works better.
The stud finder is very useful for finding pipes and electrical cables though.
learnitallboss t1_j9el798 wrote
I have a 1940 home that is an unholy mix of lath and drywall. Neodymium magnets are pretty inexpensive and work every time.
[deleted] t1_j9dl6xl wrote
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Deftek178 t1_j9de346 wrote
Magnet style stud finder is the first one I bought when I got my first apartment. 20 years later and I've never bought or even considered getting another studfindee. This is the only way to do it in my opinion. My last dog chewed up the studfinder when she was a puppy so it's covered in little holes but it still works like the day I bought it.
Tortillas47 t1_j9ducji wrote
Studfindee is definitely what I’m calling the stud finder from now on
Strict-Expression-89 t1_j9edrse wrote
Stud finder here. We find studs for all your breeding needs.
johnwynne3 t1_j9dqhdl wrote
Magnet doesn’t work on plaster walls. Does work on drywalls though.
jooes t1_j9dra1o wrote
You might be able to hit the nails on the lath.
But some of my plaster walls have a wire mesh in them too, so good luck with that.
SwellandDecay t1_j9dzwbk wrote
my experience with plaster walls is that they're strong af. you can drill straight into them for most things, unless you're mounting a bike or something
pinkmeanie t1_j9epfxo wrote
Wait 10 years. Plaster delaminates.
hicow t1_j9e65an wrote
Yes they do - normal studfinders don't work on lath & plaster walls, so magnetic's about the only option. They can be tricky, though, as the lath isn't necessarily only nailed together over studs, or like jooes mentioned, some walls use wire mesh.
johnwynne3 t1_j9frk86 wrote
We have lath and plaster construction (house built in 1941), and we have used this stud finder with success. It does a static position calibration step to determine depth of the wall before you scan. Haven’t torn in to any walls, but I don’t think we have a wire mesh back to the plaster, which may account for our success.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/RYOBI-Whole-Stud-Finder-ESF5002/319999234
[deleted] t1_j9dubop wrote
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BaconManDan t1_j9dqjr8 wrote
I also have to recommend the Franklin 710 stud finder series. The people who framed out our rental must have had on beer goggles, and that stud finder is the only way for us to reliably find them.
TinyCatCrafts t1_j9ebxe6 wrote
I had some super strong magnets for a craft project and used those to find studs. Worked like a charm.
farrell30467 t1_j9eq92n wrote
This. As an electrician, I use my magnetic level to find studs all the time. Works great as long as the magnet is strong, like a rare earth magnet
phanerondezvous t1_j9er94z wrote
Yep. My stud finder was just an expensive beeping machine. Magnets'll get ya done. Also there's always a stud on one side of an outlet to mount it so those are good areas to start.
Weaponomics t1_j9czhhe wrote
Studfinders are of various quality, and hard to troubleshoot.
But a strong magnet should catch on anything ferrous, do you have any you can slide on the wall to find a screw head?
ObligatoryOption t1_j9d0qrj wrote
You cannot assume there is a stud 16" from a corner. If the wall length is not an exact multiple of 16" then necessarily there will be a corner where the stud is at some other distance. But if you take a small nail and try at every inch then you will find a stud somewhere along that length. Then you can measure 16" from that one and expect to find the next one. That is, unless there is a door or a large window along the way, in which case distances may have had to be adjusted there as well.
thoang77 t1_j9d523r wrote
Even if it is a true corner, the wall in question might also start behind the adjacent wall so the center of the first reachable stud will be about 12.75” from the corner (assuming 1/2 drywall)
ObligatoryOption t1_j9d5kfn wrote
Right. Someone else here mentioned it: locate a power outlet. The electrical box for them are nailed against a stud, which is either on the left or right side of the box, so you only need to try two positions with a nail to find a first stud. Then measure in 16" multiples to locate the rest.
ItsBaconOclock t1_j9dhtip wrote
That's not a guarantee either. Old work gang boxes can go anywhere, because they clamp onto the wall.
I've also seen fuckery like gang boxes screwed to box bridges spanning studs.
Personally, I just use my finger. You tap on the wall. Hollow sounds mean no stud, then it sounds more solid, and you've found the stud.
AdministrativePie865 t1_j9dj4fv wrote
None of these techniques work in my house from 1850. Best I can do is measure stud distances in the attic and work my way from the nearest window.
Educational-Fig-2330 t1_j9deeeo wrote
My last house was apparently built by a fun-loving rag-tag band of beer drinking, pot smoking misfit miscreants pulled off the streets and handed hammers to meet booming demand for new housing in the 70s. If your house was built by the same ilk, your studs might not be any consistent number "on center." I had some studs 8" apart and some 4ft apart. Hidden behind caulk and new layers of paint, you would find perforated lines between 1ft and 3ft long where I went in hammering in a brad nail every 1/2" until I found stud. My studs might be 24" apart at the top and 19" apart at the bottom or vise versa. Not a single thing was straight, plumb, or level. Inside the walls we found beer cans and roaches (not insects).
_dougorama t1_j9dy5py wrote
This this this.
Get some very thin nails. Take your best guess at where a stud is by hitting the wall with your hand or use an outlet as described in multiple other posts. Hit it hard if you need to. Tap a brad nail in. If you feel resistance once it penetrates the drywall or plaster, you hit a stud. If not, pull the nail and try again just a bit further left or right. If you are hanging a shelf cover the unnecessary holes with the shelf.
PotatoRacingTeam t1_j9ebnml wrote
If you lived in Winnipeg at the time, I can almost guarantee that place was built by Qualico homes. Your assessment of their hiring process is spot on, and has not changed one iota, in all these years.
Polaris_Mars t1_j9d2poh wrote
Your walls wouldn't happened to be plaster and lathe, right? It would be extremely rare for a home built in the 60s to be built that way, but who knows.
atomicitalian t1_j9cz1lq wrote
Might want to try 24 if 16 and 32 aren't working.
bemenaker t1_j9d0dew wrote
Or 12
the_backpack t1_j9dmkrz wrote
yea, i always heard either 16" or 12" on center
CGNYC t1_j9dbjjj wrote
Why not 8 for good measure!
EstroJen t1_j9d79c7 wrote
I used strong magnets hot glued onto a long string and just kind of moved it along the walls. When it froze, that's where my stud was. Then I made a mark on the wall and kept going in order to mark where the whole stud might be.
PrettyNothing8962 t1_j9d7ox6 wrote
Find an electrical outlet. They are nailed to a stud
lochlainn t1_j9e88g1 wrote
Should be nailed to a stud.
PrettyNothing8962 t1_j9etr24 wrote
Haha. Good point
burtman77 t1_j9d5uxd wrote
You can pull the baseboard off, if it’s fairly easy and use nails to figure out the spacing then put it back in place. Just a thought.
Sometimes_Stutters t1_j9d6w2p wrote
Check for nail holes in the baseboard, especially if the nails holes are higher that about 1.5”.
danarexasaurus t1_j9de0r7 wrote
Get yourself a nice rare earth magnet. It was a game changer for me in my plaster and lathe house
frustrated_staff t1_j9czbl7 wrote
18" stud placements? Irregular stud placements?
I have a garage where the drywall isn't attached directly to the studs at all. I ended up having to cut lines across the drywall to find the studs to hang things from (ended up doing it so that the things covered up the lines I had to cut, so it worked out for me, not sure how it would go for you)
MacAndRich t1_j9dsox4 wrote
>I have a garage where the drywall isn't attached directly to the studs at all.
I almost went insane not finding the studs in my garage! As it turns out they layed what seems to be 1"×4"×8' boards horizontally over the studs, then drywall over those. So if you run a stud finder horizontally you'll never find them because there's an air gap between the stud and the drywall.
famous_shaymus t1_j9dbvc5 wrote
Find a patch of a couple feet wide in the general area that you’re wanting to find a stud. Use a finger knuckle to tap on the wall noting the tone that’s made. Move laterally in one direction, continuing to tap the wall. As you get closer to a stud, the tone should get shorter and slightly higher. As you move away from a stud, the tone gets deeper. This method will get yah relatively close to a stud. Then, in an area that’s less conspicuous, maybe near the floorboard, use a small finishing nail to tap into the wall. If it pops through easily, no stud; keep moving in one direction about an inch and a half laterally from the original hole. If you’ve gone maybe 6-8 inches in one direction and by the tone you can tell you’re going in the wrong direction, just pop back to the other side of your original hole and move in that direction.
Background-Ad-343 t1_j9d8s5e wrote
If the building is original and hasn't been renovated, then the studs could be anywhere from 12" centers all the way to 24" on interior walls due to the age of the building. I've seen some with 4 foot centers as well.
Kesshh t1_j9datv5 wrote
My house was built in the 70s, the studs were 24" on center.
Repulsive_Coat_3130 t1_j9ddeky wrote
Check the YMCA, usually a few there
nightkil13r t1_j9dir89 wrote
Magnet(i use neodymium) on some tape, slide the magnet around once it gives resistance you have found a nail. stud should be there. Its the only way i can find studs in my house because in a previous remodel instead of ripping out the failing plaster/drywall they just threw up another layer in pretty much every single room.
DoYaWannaWanga t1_j9dr33o wrote
I’m right here
DescipleofPaimei t1_j9dsd6l wrote
🫲Muffin, nice to meet you finally!
piroso t1_j9dfd2p wrote
It's 16" on center but you don't know which which end of the wall they started on. Maybe it was the other end. As others have said 24" on center can also be a thing.
Are the walls lathe and plaster? Because if so that might be why it's hard to find the studs and stud finders are working..
WaterChestnutII OP t1_j9eft15 wrote
How would I know? Don't say ask the landlord, they have less than no idea.
Mrrasta1 t1_j9dkayg wrote
I use a neodymium magnet that I sweep slowly over the wall until it picks up a drywall screw.
yeuker t1_j9dofff wrote
When I can't find studs I use a magnet to find the screws that are holding the drywall to the studs.
LogiHiminn t1_j9dqr3j wrote
My last house was built in the 60’s and had shiplap behind the drywall. You might have a similar situation. Maybe take a cover plate off an outlet/switch and see if you can see behind the drywall next to the junction box.
BCGrog t1_j9dsbg2 wrote
My house was built in 1964. The way I found my studs was to remove the baseboard trim and I was able to see the bottoms of the studs. I made a mark in the center of each one on the drywall that would be concealed by the baseboard trim when I replaced it.
This helped establish the spacing they used when they built the house.
Then I used a 4 foot level to follow them up to the location where I needed to drill a fastener, made a mark and worked from there.
Sometimes I had to cut a bit of drywall away at the bottom to reveal the stud. That's OK, because the baseboard concealed that when I replaced it.
This works if you have trim, if you can remove it easily and if you know how to re-attach it.
mister_zook t1_j9dt9dd wrote
When in doubt, get the toggle bolts haha
glue715 t1_j9du5sw wrote
The internal walls in this old apartment building I live in are 20” on center…
lil-rong69 t1_j9dujma wrote
My wife wants to know too.
wolfie379 t1_j9e3i5k wrote
Your wall might not have studs. Seriously. I live in a high-rise condo (originally a rental building) built in the 1960s, and here’s what I found when I replaced the tap for my bathtub:
The “wet wall” was made of expanded metal lath and plaster. At roughly 1 foot intervals, there was a vertical piece of U channel formed from heavy sheet metal, roughly 3/4” wide with 3/8” legs. These channels were the closest thing to studs in that wall.
lochlainn t1_j9e8el2 wrote
Metal studs are still studs, and can be used as support. They aren't quite as good at holding racking weight, but it's better to be near the upright rather than far from it.
They're super common in commercial construction.
wolfie379 t1_j9e8tz6 wrote
These were not metal studs (note that I listed their dimensions). Metal studs that I’ve seen have roughly the same dimensions as a 2x4.
lochlainn t1_j9e9qvy wrote
Oh, true, yeah.
That doesn't sound like a wall but more of a stand off. Like somebody didn't want to back it with plywood but had some random lengths of metal channel 3/4 in wide. That's some wierd "engineering".
that's all that was behind it? That's what is concerning. If I was faking a plywood based wet wall that's how I'd build it, 1 ft centers (In reality I'd use concrete board like a normal person, but not in this bizarro build), but if it's unsupported like you said, that's just crazy. It's a pretend wall.
I've long been of the opinion that builders just make shit up as they go along if you aren't there to police them every day for their bullshit. My sister had her last house constructed and had to have them tear out basically the entire stairwell because of just imbecilic pants on head stupid contstruction that they never would have caught if they hadn't gone through the building with a fine tooth comb almost every close of day.
wolfie379 t1_j9eal33 wrote
It gets better. One of the washers between the strainer basket and the tailpiece for my kitchen (double) sink started to leak, literally a 50 cent part. Tailpieces were soldered into drain pipe rather than using slip joints, slight angle so fitting screwed onto strainer basin damaged the basin’s threads, had to replace strainer basin. Did you know that between the 1960s and the 1990s, there was a change in strainer basins - they now project roughly 1/2” less below the bottom of the sink? Had to replace both strainer basins and crossover pipe because a 50 cent washer was installed in a manner where it couldn’t be replaced.
All the lights and half the outlets are on one circuit. One of the outlets on that circuit is near floor level where the fridge was when I bought the place (from the cabinets, it looks like that space was intended for the fridge - fridges should be on their own circuit). I moved the fridge to what looked like where the ironing board was supposed to be set up (outlet on its own circuit). Previous owner had painted over many switches/outlets, so I was replacing them. Removed fuse from circuit for “old fridge” outlet, was detaching wires from the outlet. Detached one of the wires from the neutral side, there was a spark. The neutral return for another circuit went into one of the silver screws on this outlet and out of the other. Set up a pigtail - both wires and a short one go into a wire nut, short one goes to new outlet, so any future outlet replacement won’t leave a loose live wire.
lochlainn t1_j9ebsh4 wrote
Jesus Christ.
Who just paints over outlets? That doesn't make them stop being electrically active!
I hate to say it but you picked a winner of a condo.
reclusey t1_j9f1s51 wrote
Eyyy, are we roommates?!
Opened a few walls in my 1960s house to find interior door headers supported by the 1x pine doorjambs, just toenailed into the king studs, no jacks. My hall closet only opens halfway and my bedroom door won't close, so I'm guessing they're all like that. They're not load bearing walls, so who cares, right? /s
Replaced the wax ring in my basement bathroom. Flange is rotated 90° (so bolts feed through the holes, not the t-slots) and welded into the cast-iron drain. Holes are only accessible from underneath, through the floor.
I love my house. I do. But, damn.
algy888 t1_j9e3jk1 wrote
The way I have found studs in my place is taping a piece of a fridge magnet onto some dental floss.
Then I gently move it over the wall. Eventually it will pass over a hidden screw and kind of hang up for a bit. Then I am sure that the stud is there.
Alobster111 t1_j9e583x wrote
I use a neodymium magnet from a hard drive to find the drywall screws if you have drywall. You can buy them at the hardware store also or use any powerful magnet.
raptorbluez t1_j9ea5uq wrote
If nothing else works, drill a small, easily filled hole in the drywall near where you want to mount the shelf supports. Bend a wire hanger (remember those?) to a 90° angle and thread it through the hole.
When you rotate the hanger it will hit the stud and you should be able to tell where the stud is with enough precision to attach a shelf mount to it. Or maybe you'll get lucky with the 1st hole...
SwellJoe t1_j9easjg wrote
I bought a house last year, and in several rooms I could not find studs on any interior walls. Baffling. I'd find screws, but then when I'd drill I'd find no stud behind it. Weirdest thing.
Finally realized somewhere along the way drywall sheets were hung over the old lath and plaster walls, so the studs are far enough back to be undetectable with magnetism. The screws are just kind of random and only sink into the previous wall, not the studs. I've considered pulling off the drywall to see what's actually going on back there (I assume water damage, as many places in the house have water damage), but then I'd have a bunch of drywall to replace, in addition to everything else that needs doing.
29grampian t1_j9ef8hq wrote
Rare earth magnet to find the dry wall nails
Woofpickle t1_j9ei2ue wrote
Not a lot of building codes in the 60s.
Bold of you to assume there's studs in there
Tedious_research t1_j9eifne wrote
Don't start on the corner looking for 16" o.c. studs... Most outlets are mailed to a stud, measure from there. +1 on stud magnet though, it is all I use.
himynameisnano t1_j9em3il wrote
If there is an outlet on that wall it should be attached to one side of a stud. It gives you a starting point. You might try getting a nicer stud finder, you can always return it if it still doesn’t work. 90%of the time I find studs by knocking but I use mine for weirder areas and even tile without issues.
Slegos888 t1_j9eqh4u wrote
Using the small hole that missed the stud, unbend a wire hanger and fish it in the hole sideways until you hit a stud. Mark the hanger and pull it out and measure that distance on the face of the wall. Repeat in opposite direction to find adjacent stud. Measure in between two to find the stud spacing down the wall. Some homes were built with balloon framing which is generally 24" spacing rather than the now typical 16".
The_Jibbity t1_j9er3wt wrote
Switches and outlet boxes are mounted to studs. You should be able to go 16” once you find it from there.
If you measured from a corner you may want to go out 14.5-15”, this account ls for drywall width and width of half a stud.
don_Juan_oven t1_j9da6oz wrote
I installed security systems for a summer, and we had to drill a finger-sized hole behind the panel to drop the wire down the stud space to pop out at an outlet for the plug. I was having the absolute worst time getting the pull, ended up with a palm-sized hole (still fine, it would be hidden by the panel) and couldn't make it. With the customer's blessing, my manager (who had come to find out what was taking me so long) cut a hole big enough to look inside the wall. The framer had decided to slant a stud from bottom left to top right of the "cell" for some idiot reason, and the angle was slight enough that we couldn't sense it by touch. Moral of the story, don't trust that the framer from a full sixty years ago did what they were supposed to do, or that nothing has been changed since then.
goodlordineedacoffee t1_j9dagae wrote
My house was built early 80s and studs are 24” apart.
xpen25x t1_j9ddj6h wrote
find an outlet and the stud finder should find the stud on either side. measure 16 in and check then measure 24 inches and check.
michkbrady2 t1_j9dghu2 wrote
Folks, I have been lurking for years, watching all the fabulous DIY on various streams ... thought to meself, I could give that a go ... and discovered that, in Dublin, walls are solid. So, the electric drill doesn't do what is necessary (as in I have 2mm to 5mm deep holes fecken everywhere in me gaff) ... All & every piece of advice would be appreciated. No banana for scale I'm afraid, you'll have to work out just how "deep" those measurements are please
WestWoodworks t1_j9dh63d wrote
Very carefully pull off a piece of the baseboard. You can cut a 1/4” - 1/2” channel where the trim will cover it.
Once you find them, replace the baseboard using a little bit of Liquid Nails.
Just be careful if the top has been sealed up with caulking/paint. Use a sharp razor knife to very carefully slice that along the top edge.
HyruleJedi t1_j9dh8j4 wrote
What are you trying to hold?
Those spring anchor anchors are good for 80+ lbs
WaterChestnutII OP t1_j9efosb wrote
Track shelving. Some books, plants, decorations, that kind of thing.
DjMafoo t1_j9dipzc wrote
If you got a powerful fridge magnet… drag that bad boy up and down the wall where you think a stud should be and wait for the magnet to give resistance. A strong enough magnet will catch on the drywall screws… then hope the drywall screws are actually in the studs
BlowMoreGlass t1_j9djsk1 wrote
I see plenty of good suggestions but what worked for me is using one of the existing holes I drilled that didn't hit a stud and taking a length of coat hanger and bending it, slide into the hole and rotate to find the stud.
[deleted] t1_j9dkfjx wrote
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SorryTruthNA t1_j9dloe0 wrote
Use the compass in your phone bro it’s a magnet
squaredistrict2213 t1_j9dlrzm wrote
Get a stronger stud finder. My walls are drywall then plaster. Almost 2” thick in spots. A regular stud finder does nothing for me, but I’ve got a higher end one that can find them.
Otherwise the old outlet box trick is a good way to start.
Measuring 16” from the corner isn’t a good way because the wall probably isn’t a perfect multiple of 16”. That corner could have been the end of the wall when they framed it. A 170” wall from the tail end is going to have studs at 10”, 26”, 42”, etc
Redeye_33 t1_j9dlu0u wrote
Just FYI, some builds in that era have 24” stud spacing.
Electronic-Donut8756 t1_j9dnprb wrote
I’ve never had my 25 year old stud finder not tell me exactly where they are in many houses/apts, but I never lived in anything older than 1973.
mickeysbeer t1_j9dodeb wrote
Are you sure they're not cement or cinder block walls?
AddNamAndHim t1_j9dpgbc wrote
Find the most powerful magnet you have. Ours happens to be the magnet "key" that keeps our toddler out of the cabinets. Gently slide the magnet around on the wall, near where you'd like to hang your whatever. The magnet will snap on to the closest drywall screw head it can find. Pow, there's your stud.
Edit: Do not drill exactly where the magnet stopped. There's already a screw there.
CalmPanic402 t1_j9dpqm3 wrote
Get a sewing pin and tap it in gently. If you punch through, pull it out and move 1-1/2" over and try again. Repeat until you hit wood all the way.
nata42 t1_j9dpxgo wrote
I use a strong magnet to find screws or nails.
IndyPoker979 t1_j9dqtk8 wrote
All of the suggestions are solid but if you already drilled a small hole, take a wire hanger and find it behind the wall that way to know which direction you need to go. Then just measure over and test it to make sure.
autumnotter t1_j9dqx86 wrote
Deep stud finder, or a flexible cable camera
reditget t1_j9ds99l wrote
Your missing studs.
TheStoicSlab t1_j9dscvc wrote
I tried a magnet to a string. Dangle it along the wall until it sticks to a screw/nail. That's where the stud is.
Alarmed-Chicken-8105 t1_j9dt5qo wrote
Simply enough just use a strong magnet, it will be attracted to the nails in the studs and boom, you find your studs. From there you can do it a couple more times and use logical deduction to figure out how far apart the studs are. just because 16" or 12" is standard depending where you are or what wall type it is doesn't mean everyone followed every rule back then.
daleshakleford t1_j9dtltp wrote
Inner wall studs may be spaced differently than outer wall studs, especially in older builds/apartments. Try 24" centers and if that doesn't work try tapping to listen for a stud.
[deleted] t1_j9dtorq wrote
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kerpanistan t1_j9duqx6 wrote
If you have any magnets maybe try to look for a drywall screw in a stud. Should find one after sliding it around a bit.
egus t1_j9dweac wrote
Could be 24" on centers
arturovargas16 t1_j9dwkkh wrote
Use a magnet, find a screw or nail, go above and below to find two more screws, use a pencil to connect the dots and now you have an accurate idea of where is the stud
Hippiebigbuckle t1_j9dx45s wrote
A finish nail to search for the studs can cause less dust and if you vary the height of your test holes there won’t be a line of dots that catch the eye.
D1rtyH1ppy t1_j9dylic wrote
I use a magnet and mark wherever I find a nail head. If I find enough of these in a row, I've found a stud.
sevargmas t1_j9dynf4 wrote
Get a magnetic stud finder. The drywall is home with screws in the magnet will find the screws.
Or use a strong magnet if you have one.
essaitchthrowaway3 t1_j9dyvk0 wrote
You are probably missing the stud by a fraction of an inch. Instead of jumping another 16" from where you first went through, you should have gone 1/2"
Learn to use the stud finder properly. Videos on YT.
cravinbob t1_j9dzpag wrote
just use anchors
JonJackjon t1_j9dzqcy wrote
Hold a flashlight near the wall shining across the surface. Look for the imperfections in the drywall where the nails are.
Berkamin t1_j9dzswa wrote
Use the magnet method. Drywall is nailed on to studs. If you use magents and locate a column of three evenly spaced nails that line up vertically, you can be pretty certain that there's a stud there, especially if there's another column to the left or the right about 16" apart.
See this demonstrated in this instruction on making a DIY magnet stud finder made using a magnet, dental floss, and tape:
Instructables | Inexpensive and reliable stud finder
CzarIP t1_j9e0jkz wrote
Use a strong magnet and run along the wall until you find a nail or screw. Then go up and down to find the left and right limits.
LateralThinker13 t1_j9e1id5 wrote
Stick a curved metal coat hanger through the holes you made until you hit a stud. Or just check where an electrical outlet is...
Vegas_off_the_Strip t1_j9e1uxa wrote
often in the corners there is more than one support beam so the 16" does not start at the corner.
Also, it could have started from the opposite corner. Very commonly the last stud in a wall might only be 8 or 10 inches or whatever from the corner because they started at the opposite wall.
Also, sometimes there's a window or door or something that causes there to be a support beam in a place that throws off the 16" from the wall. So, you just need to find one in the middle of the wall. and then go 16" from there.
Also, older construction sometimes had studs at 24".
If you're going to use nails to find it, then I recommend getting a very thin nail and then trying to locate the stud with as little damage as possible. If the wall is white or off white you can use toothpast to fill in the small holes. However, getting a stud finder is the best way and they are cheap.
sik_dik t1_j9e2vyu wrote
did you run the stud detector on yourself first to ensure that bad baby knows what's up?
zanfar t1_j9e4k82 wrote
> Stud finder finds nothing
Stud finders, unless you spent some cash, are notoriously unreliable. Your experience is not surprising--unfortunate, but not surprising. Try a magnet to locate the drywall screws, buy a better fineder, or use another method.
> Measured out 16" from the corner and drilled a small hole, went straight through.
Even if your studs are 16" on center, that doesn't mean they are 16" from any point or feature. The wall may start anywhere inside or even beyond the corner, or the studs might have been laid out to make cutting in windows, doorways, or other features easy.
Once you have located a stud, you can usually find other studs this way, but this won't necessarily help you find your first stud.
Your studs might also be 24" on center, depending on the wall specs, or might even shift to make framing easier. The code is a minimum, not a rule.
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Magnets are my go-to, you can even find magnet-based stud finders.
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Most power receptacles and light switches will be installed against a stud, so look to either side (this is very NOT true for phone, cable, or other low-voltage outlets, or anything installed after construction was complete).
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Finally, knocking along the wall will usually let you center in on a stud.
None of these is going to give you a "right there", but you can usually get a 4-6" target and narrow down from there. The nails are a good check.
Icy_Jackfruit9240 t1_j9e4lzz wrote
My first apartment I spent a week looking delicately for a stud in this wall … only to realize it was hollow (all the interior walls in the apartment were just attached to these metal strips. There’s a name for them but totally weirdest thing.
Goes without saying the actual structure was concrete boxes with huge concrete pillars.
poposplants t1_j9e5avm wrote
The first time I did hit a stud, I was a taken back. I'd never found any in rentals
Nikopoleous t1_j9e7zvo wrote
Strong magnet on a string should find any nails or screws attached to the studs.
the_username_name t1_j9e8vlp wrote
Strong magnet is what we always use. Drag it around until you find a nail head
autoturk t1_j9e90zs wrote
Look for nail pops! :)
hunterbuilder t1_j9ea2wi wrote
If you REALLY need to find studs and nothing else works, do this: pull off the baseboard trim and start drilling holes 2" off the floor- high enough to miss the bottom plate but low enough to be covered by the baseboard. Once you hit one, you should be able to measure out the rest.
Bigbadbuddah_ t1_j9eb5sy wrote
I also live in an old building and the studs are horizontal rather than vertical. Just a thought
cheek_splitter t1_j9ec25q wrote
What finder did you get? I got one decently rated thing on Amazon, and never did find anything with it. Broke it in a rage rather than even bother returning it.
Bought a cheap Hart finder from Wally World, and that thing is worth its weight in gold.
Also, if you have old plaster walls, good luck. I've never had any luck with those in my last house, and ended up just drilling to figure out the OCs.
WaterChestnutII OP t1_j9eesom wrote
It's a Ryobi. Not the greatest, but pretty adequate tools usually.
cheek_splitter t1_j9ef45h wrote
Should be good. Hart is basically rebranded Ryobi.
ClumsyRainbow t1_j9ecb8i wrote
Use a stud finder or tap along. When you suspect you have a stud use a thin screwdriver of similar and punch through the wall to check you do indeed have a stud.
[deleted] t1_j9ecxu3 wrote
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ThatsMrDickfaceToYou t1_j9ehpqz wrote
You can knock on the wall and listen to the sound. The empty space between studs will have a lower pitch and the stud will have a shallow pitch. Imprecise to an untrained ear, but it will give you a hint.
You can also look at the wall itself. There are often visible signs of where the nails were hammered in to attach the drywall in the first place.
backjox t1_j9el5o8 wrote
Yikes, I'm glad I have bricks and wood
Medical_Chemical_343 t1_j9env5y wrote
Many years ago I visited a relative’s new million$ house at the framing stage to help with some low voltage wiring. The GC had misread the framing plan and had installed trim joists 16” OC over the 3 car garage instead of the 12” in the plan. The fix? Install more joists in between resulting in 8” OC! Really a beautiful thing to behold… but no doubt a plumber’s nightmare!
mercavius t1_j9eoqfw wrote
My last has was built in the 60s. All sheetrock on exterior walls had a tin-foil-like coating in the backside. I think it was fire-retardant. No stud finders worked on my exterior walls. Try the magnet method to find nails. Try and find the faint indications of nail heads on the contours of the sheet rocks finish. Use outlets as a starting reference since they are usually mounted to studs. Use a pin nail to locate studs. Several ways but all of them take patience and mapping out.
K_Hat_Omega t1_j9epd43 wrote
Plaster and lath walls, Google it
Ace_Harding t1_j9eq09n wrote
You sure there are wood studs back there? I had this issue in my basement. Kept drilling holes, kept going right through. Found out I had steel studs. Shaped like a C and very thin so a bit goes through without much resistance. Apartment building could definitely have steel studs.
trumpmademecrazy t1_j9eqmft wrote
Try at 24 inches. Some areas have more relaxed building codes and require only 24 in. between studs.
Guygan t1_j9er993 wrote
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TopDonut233 t1_j9esb9h wrote
Try 24”.
skaote t1_j9d3g32 wrote
Measure from a door jam to your closest outlet. That will give you a ballpark rule by division.
earlycuyler8887 t1_j9eqjrp wrote
You may be right, but don't forget the the 2x's are probably true 2x4's, which will affect how he finds 16 on ¢.
EmpatheticNihilism t1_j9dpl7n wrote
You have plaster walls. You won’t find a stud with a machine.
Crotchless_Panties t1_j9ed3nh wrote
Just get a demo-saw and start on one end of the wall, about titty-height and just go ripping nuts, all the way across the room... Then repeat at about head height, then do two vertical cuts on each end.
Now then grab your claw hammer and pull the cut sections off... You can then see the studs, and even measure the distance between each one! 😁
BORG_US_BORG t1_j9dpiuz wrote
Get a cheap-ass stud finder for like $10. Read the instructions. Many of them register at the edge of the stud, so you have to find it from both directions.
ItsBaconOclock t1_j9di35m wrote
You tap the wall with your finger. You'll hear hollow sounds when you're between studs and solid thumps when you are on the stud.
If you mark a couple that way, you can dial it in if you're not sure.
UpgradeCarton t1_j9czhim wrote
Take an outlet or switch cover off and look between the drywall and the top of the box to see where the stud is (left or right). That will give you an idea where one is and then you can go from there. Remember that they’re 16” on center and they’re 1 1/2” wide, so you could only be missing the stud by a little bit.