Submitted by A_Damn_Millenial t3_yzgenl in baltimore
Comments
necbone t1_ix0bdz4 wrote
Tis angering..
7h33v1l7w1n t1_ix03pmu wrote
There’s an MDOT survey exploring possibilities to implement a line like the yellow one in this graphic. Go take it!
guest0112 t1_ix08n53 wrote
The closet racists on NextDoor are having a field day trying to stop it
wavy-seals t1_ix0l76u wrote
I went to the MDOT meeting up in Lutherville and was surprised there were only like 5 people there who were actually for it (out of maybe 300 people there), and surprised at how stupid some of the reasoning was. Examples:
- Public transit is ableist. I am disabled, and i cannot go up and down steps and then walk to my destination. Therefor no one should have public transit.
- Public transit would mean it would take more time for me to get to work, because of all the stops. It would mean I would miss breakfast with my 5 year old kid. Therefor no one should have public transit.
- Public transit is only safe for the people who ride the trains, it’s extremely unsafe for children playing outside. Having rail lines go down our streets would increase the amount of children dying in accidents. Because a train that comes by every 15 minutes is more dangerous than cars that comes by every 5 seconds.
People are so shortsighted.
coys21 t1_ix1dwfa wrote
I live in Lutherville. I would love to expand public transportation via a rail system. Most of the the people I know that don't want it is because mdot hasn't explained how they would run a light rail down York rd without it complicating everything. I get it. I can't picture it. There are obviously the racist and nimbys that oppose it for no reason. Personally I'm a big fan of option four which is the subway from Towson -> Port Covington and maybe beyond.
wavy-seals t1_ix26rbv wrote
I’m for the subway as well - or the bus rapid transit system. Light rail is okay, but not ideal. I understand the concern of it running down two lane streets for several blocks, but I also don’t think we should halt progress for four blocks worth of road.
I’ve lived abroad, I’ve seen BRTs, and subways, and trams, and have ridden all of the above. The American car brain mindset grinds my gears. People really can’t wrap their heads around how great public transit can be because their only frame of reference is the light rail ride to Camden Yards four times a year.
coys21 t1_ix28h8t wrote
I'm just north of the beltway on a side street just off of Dulaney Valley. I'm far enough away that a light rail down York Road would not necessarily impact me for good or bad. From Ridgely to the Circle is just under 3 miles of heavily commuted York rd. I can't envision how that could be done. You'd have to widen York rd or just get rid of the turn lane. I'd prefer the whole damn thing be a subway. Or, instead of a standard light rail, let's do some San Francisco style street cars. I would ride the shit out of those.
troublewthetrolleyeh t1_ix290ic wrote
Jesus Christ re: the disabled person. Public transit is significantly more accessible. They wanna keep waiting for MTA Mobility five hours after Mobility said they would be there?
wavy-seals t1_ix29ddx wrote
They’d prefer to drive to their destination, park in handicapped parking, and have a shorter walk. Which is totally fine. No one is forcing you go take public transport when you can drive, lady, it’s just an option for the rest of us…
Cheomesh t1_ix2nxxq wrote
The existing rail even has roll-on for wheel chairs.
BoysenberryNo4959 t1_ix4lyjg wrote
The ADA has to make public transportation accessible; it’s federal law. She sounds like a buzz killer.
dcfb2360 t1_ix3x0ui wrote
> public transit is ableist
lol you should hit ‘em with “so do you want blind people driving on the roads?” Disabled people are also poor (often poorer) and rely on public transit like everyone else
Blatmore t1_ix37qlq wrote
Liberals gleefully embraced the tool of all these isms when they needed to halt any economic leftward momentum. I guess they never thought the wreckers would wreck beyond their intended purpose.
wavy-seals t1_ix3aoyn wrote
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say, and I don’t understand the need to bring “liberals” into this.
Blatmore t1_ix4etd0 wrote
This sub is supermajority liberal. I like to point out to them when their decisions lead to the things they hate.
wavy-seals t1_ix6sz0u wrote
Liberals are overwhelmingly for public transport, so where does your comment fit in to this discussion?
[deleted] t1_ix8bxks wrote
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Blatmore t1_ix8szsi wrote
Liberals also made isms a higher priority than things like public transit. They got you to vote for them thinking they'd do both, but they're only ever going to do the isms, because those are cheap to do and allow the HR departments to make it easier to fire you.
inohavename t1_ix0e4mw wrote
I don't think they're all that closeted. I've seen some pretty overt stuff.
[deleted] t1_ix0id57 wrote
Yep. Basically they’ll say anything that won’t definitely get them immediately banned.
reeking_lizaveta t1_ix1lw4y wrote
Anti-Baltimore sentiment is a huge obstacle to functional transit in the region. I think Baltimore's only hope of getting a decent local transit system is to sneak it into a regional rail system servicing the entire Baltimore-Washington area. Unfortunately the MTA keeps proposing mediocre projects that rile up the racists but fail to get anyone excited.
Agile_Disk_5059 t1_ix0yxtv wrote
Hunt Valley is very white suburban and higher income and it's survived having a light rail station. Why would Columbia fair any worse?
Signal_13 t1_ix3uth1 wrote
Except that the Hunt Valley Walmart actually had to close down and move because the shoplifting losses got so out of control after the Light Rail arrived. They moved several miles south where there was no rail stop.
7h33v1l7w1n t1_ix0d7vd wrote
fuck em
theutzigs t1_ix0hoc3 wrote
You able to link a post where there are comments?
guest0112 t1_ix1btzn wrote
I’m not in “stoneleigh” but I live close enough that I get stoneleigh posts in my newsfeed or whatever. I think it’s against Reddit policy to out specific people but the two guys who posted daily for 10 days straight rhymed with Watrick Phite and Patt Mirnot. They started a NextDoor group called “New York Rd Corridor Transit Discussion Group” to coordinate efforts. Their posts have been nauseating
wbruce098 t1_ix0s3bp wrote
Well let’s have a field day making it happen. We can’t let the closeted-or-not folks step in the way of progress without running them over a little.
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_ix0wzsv wrote
Any idea where I can find said survey?
Jeff3412 t1_ix16lnb wrote
7h33v1l7w1n t1_ix1fdjk wrote
Oh I didn’t even see the East/West one that’s sick
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_ix3bs4e wrote
Thanks!
[deleted] t1_ix0exls wrote
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batmanofska t1_ix0fmxx wrote
reeking_lizaveta t1_ix1ftv9 wrote
Yea, except none of the proposed alternatives for the north south line interline with the existing north south light rail, and some only have a transfer to it at Penn Station where it has extremely limited service. The yellow line as depicted here is much better - build a tunnel that can service both a new north south line in the York rd corridor and the existing light rail between Camden Station and Penn Station. This would greatly speed up the existing light rail and give it a much better transfer to the metro at Charles Center as well as better downtown station locations on Charles St, enable easy transfers between the two lines, and allow the new line to use existing maintenance facilities and rolling stock. It would also allow trains from Towson to run south to BWI instead of ending in south Baltimore.
baltimorecalling t1_iwzwsb3 wrote
That green line expansion would be so sweet. The Baltimore MetroLink would be much more useful.
People in White Marsh would fight it hard, but it would be absolutely great.
Xanny t1_iwzxyzk wrote
If White Marsh doesn't want it just built it to right outside White Marsh, fuck em.
moderndukes t1_ix0rap9 wrote
White Marsh isn’t even a real place. In fact, nowhere in Baltimore County is, technically.
microActive t1_ix1mxel wrote
Well, I am relatively new here, but I live in White marsh/perry hall and would LOVE for the green line. I hate driving in the city so much.
JAREDAGO t1_iwzzdaz wrote
No chance in hell the people of howard county allow a Baltimore metro to get anywhere near the city center
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_iwzzjs4 wrote
It’s a shame because they really ought to have a better transit connection to BWI, MARC, & Amtrak.
gaytee t1_ix00lht wrote
Anyone living in hoco has a car because you can’t live there without one. This is literally intentional. Not to mention, they don’t ride Marc or Amtrak either. Finally, they can afford the Uber from their front door to the curb at BWI, or the expensive covered parking. If you can’t get to their hood without a car, the chances of people riding transit to do rachet shit falls. They don’t have transit because they don’t want people living there who need it.
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_ix03rtr wrote
I understand HOCO was originally designed for the car and has a rich history of closet racists, classist, NIMBYS, and car brains who would oppose change.
However, I disagree with the implication that current residents won’t ride GOOD transit if they had it. Continuing to design communities around private vehicle travel is a short-sighted mistake, and I would imagine HOCO and state planners know it.
The density & 15-minute living currently available at the Town Center is precisely where transit oriented development should be. Regardless of how snooty you might think HOCO residents are, they’re still humans who have jobs, relationships, etc. around the region. If they have access fast, reliable, and frequent transit connections to reasonable and valuable destinations (not a fucking park and ride), then they’ll use it.
DfcukinLite t1_ix073qv wrote
Can’t speak for the totality of Howard county, Edward Norton’s grandfather developed Columbia, and then Reston, to be the first mixed income planned community centered around a town center. That’s where the “EQUALITY” stickers come from.
youre_soaking_in_it t1_ix0k0b8 wrote
Welp, he's dead now.
arbivark t1_ix0ri45 wrote
Ed Norton has a movie with a somewhat fictionalized Robert Moses, city planner of new york, as the villain. His grandfather being a city planner would explain his interest.
throws_rocks_at_cars t1_ix05erk wrote
Baltimore doesn’t have the institutional knowledge nor the resources to build “GOOD transit”, let alone transit at all.
The only way they’re going to get a metro line out to HoCo and other nimby enclaves is if they build out significant metro connections within the city and a decade of growth leaves HoCo behind (the same way DC left Baltimore behind), then they’ll be clamoring for it.
As it stands now, from the perspective of a HoCo NIMBY, a metro line has zero positive impact on them because very VERY few of them need to commute into Baltimore for any reason, especially now, and have a severe negative potential impact of introducing crime into their cute little towns. This is a stupid concern, IMO, but it will be almost insurmountable. No one in HoCo wants a metro connection to Baltimore. That’s it. Also, anyone from HoCo that does commute from Baltimore is happy to drive and would not consider an alternative (and it’s hard to blame them for this ignorance as no alternative currently exists to compare it to).
Again, the solution is to build within Baltimore and within communities that want it, employ TOD and other yimby/StrongTowns style development to build wealth (which reduces crime and creates jobs/opportunities), and in a decade they will be begging for a metro line to get to where all the jobs are.
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_ix08jck wrote
Outside of sporting events, there’s probably few HoCo residents who would ride a yellow line all the way into Baltimore City.
However, I believe there is tremendous opportunity in the stops west of Linthicum. Getting residents rail access to BWI and MARC seem like no brainers, especially if the stops can become TOD zones with increased density.
Having a connection to Baltimore shouldn’t be a deal breaker, but if residents make it a problem, a compromise could be that the HoCo to BWI connection will be its own line that requires a train change to get to Baltimore.
DfcukinLite t1_ix07an0 wrote
Can’t speak for the totality of Howard county, but, Edward Norton’s grandfather developed Columbia, and then Reston, to be the first mixed income planned community centered around a town center in the US. That’s where the “EQUALITY” stickers come from.
shebang_bin_bash t1_ix0dday wrote
As a HoCo resident, I agree with you.
TheCaptainDamnIt t1_ix0e0ao wrote
You're really underestimating the racism, hated, and the sacrifices those people are willing to make because of it.
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_ix0ph2c wrote
I know those people exist, and I know they’re loud and have money, but I think they’re outnumbered.
[deleted] t1_ix187ey wrote
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Xanny t1_ix03v0o wrote
Which is just fuck em. I think one of the greatest failings in Baltimore transit planning is the persistent need to keep trying to make it a commuter system, that every line needs to have termini in exurbs near or past the beltway. In most proposals the lines are only financially solvent to build in the city core and the 60%+ of the line that goes through the suburbs out to these termini are extraordinarily expensive to build and would have a fraction of the ridership.
The original Red Line proposal is a great example of this. From the MARC interchange past Bayview through the city and up route 40 it all makes great sense. You even get a dedicated right of way tunnel through most of the city to make up for the failings of the existing light rail. But then they propose an expensive as hell tunnel under suburbia at Cooks Lane through the nowhere that is i70 just to get it to the car sprawl malls and government buildings at Security Square. That whole leg of the route is about half its cost but its realistic ridership would be dreadful compared to the rest of the route.
colive4 t1_ix19taz wrote
While I agree with you on the matter of cost, I can counter with an amazing single data point of one, me. I would LOVE to be able to get downtown from my Baltimore County home easily and without having to drive. A stop in White Marsh isn't too far from me and would make it incredibly easier for me to go to things like O's games, the casino, and restaurants. (20ish years ago I would have said downtown bars too but I've aged out of that demographic).
I hear what you're saying though for sure. I'm just one person fighting against the racists out here.
robertbitchum t1_ix1ajo4 wrote
20 years ago there probably still were downtown bars
Xanny t1_ix1csri wrote
Yea at some point the impetus has to be on the individual to live near transit if they want to use it. Like definitely advocate wherever you are to build transit, but most of the suburbs exist to get away from the city. That is why I advocate for building up transit in Baltimore itself, so that people who want to live car free have that as an option, because its really the only place in the state that can be truly realized.
Cheomesh t1_ix2qq9g wrote
I get you, but if the city has to foot the bill for these why should it subsidize suburban lifestyles?
colive4 t1_ix4hruq wrote
Fair point, but two things:
- The influx of $$ into Baltimore City from surburbanites with easy access to all the stuff there isn't nothing.
- Fund it at the state level, not just the city. Failing that, a joint counties/city project.
Just back of the napkin thinking, I'm not a budgeting guy!
microActive t1_ix1n6le wrote
If you live in town center you do not need a car. I wouldn't be surprised if 20% of the people who live there work from home lol. Get their groceries delivered and everything
tjd9109 t1_ix1dkjj wrote
As a Baltimore resident who works in HOCO/MOCO, I would rather see express lanes on I-95 be added than a rail line added to connect Baltimore-Columbia. The masses who sit in traffic on 95 between 198 and 695 interchange would agree
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_ix2hbib wrote
More car lanes are not the answer.
tjd9109 t1_ix3ysho wrote
The problem is Maryland cannot properly operate a functioning rail system. I’ve given up on using light rail link after my last trip from BWI. I waited over 55 minutes for a train to arrive when the schedule online stated for 3 cars to depart in that period. The passengers that day also were another reason. I was approached three different times at the BWI terminal asking for money and then a man in his 40s had a baby who might have been no older than 3 weeks old in a stroller, screaming and crying the entire ride and did nothing about it. I’ll be taking an Uber or taxi to BWI from here on out ✌🏻
Also express toll lanes are being added in the DC region on I-270 and I-495, when DC already has Metro that connects all of the areas where express lanes are being added.
DfcukinLite t1_ix06mvs wrote
I actually don’t believe that. This plan only has the current light tail line extended to the mall. If you weren’t aware that part of Howard county is section 8 and housing vouchers. Columbia is the first planned development that is income inclusive. Outside of this area I’d agree. For sure not happening in Elliott city or Glenelg. I’d say Columbia and maple lawn/scaggsvile/laurel would appreciate it more being more transplants and DC commuters. The Merriweather district is populated by young professionals, I’m sure they’re all for it.
theutzigs t1_ix0j24o wrote
At what point can a potential crucial part of infrastructure be on the weight of the citizens that live there? At some point it would have to be done and hopefully it gets done because it would be convenient
tommykaye t1_ix0zdu0 wrote
The sure as hell built around the Mall in Columbia enough you think they’d want the extra transport.
SeaworthyDame t1_iwzy0q1 wrote
Amazing… blue and yellow line go all the way to Texas…
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_iwzztvt wrote
Yeehaw!
BirdFive t1_ix02ip3 wrote
If only…. Sigh
Xanny t1_iwzz3j3 wrote
The purple line in this proposal was never going to happen, it uses Amtraks northeast corridor tracks. In theory you could try to widen it with an extra 2 tracks to accommodate local light rail along those rights of way, but huge portions of that route are through tunnels and widening those would be a nightmare. But the way it was proposed they were just assuming Amtrak could logistically fit local trains on the existing infrastructure even though the tunnel past West Baltimore to Penn is already a bottlneck for the trains already on the line.
One thing that I've never heard a proposal for would be to expand the CSX right of way that runs north of Penn Station through Charles Village east to the northeast corridor exchange. Its currently dual tracked for freight, and CSX will never give up that right of way, but I think its feasible to build light rail and stations surrounding those tracks that would make a lot of useful connections. It would take no demolitions and just two bridges and could hook into the existing light rail with an interchange.
The yellow line though is basically part of the NS corridor proposal from MTA, and if Wes can manage to refund the red line, build the heavy rail variant of the NS route, and extend the existing metro line to its originally intended terminus, we would be in really good shape in a decade.
But at the same time, we also need vastly expanded bike infrastructure and a major overhaul of city zoning. Vastly reduce the number of zoning categories and rezone everywhere near fixed transit to the highest degree of transit oriented development. Building the transit is pointless if all it goes to is parking lots and stroads and none of the city can build up density in response.
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_ix00f4p wrote
>The purple line in this proposal was never going to happen, it uses Amtraks northeast corridor tracks.
The purple line is labeled as MARC, and partially exists as the current Penn line, which they already share with Amtrak. I don’t think it would be completely unreasonable to expand service.
Xanny t1_ix033l3 wrote
If you read the written proposal from 2002 its not just making MARC trains stop more often at more stations, its adding new local trains because the MARC rolling stock is all diesel locomotives that are ill fit to make stops that regularly. It uses the same right of way and shares stations, but it was proposed to be a separate local rail line.
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_ix042cw wrote
Makes sense. I’ll have to track it down and read the proposal.
idriveahyundai t1_ix08lln wrote
My understanding of the proposal for the purple and orange was a more hybrid rail approach like a septa regional rail, but running a more local service. still service intervals of around 30 minutes . this way it’s a more baltimore centric commuter service, but not necessarily rapid transit.
jasonpbecker t1_ix0d6fl wrote
Yes, but it should be making MARC trains stop more often with new EMU rolling stock. None of this map works without having fully electric transits without the stop/acceleration penalties of stops with these frequencies. Of course, the NEC is already electrified and for some time MARC did use electric locomotives, but our idiot transit agencies swapped to diesel and are continuing to invest in diesel.
That said, I’m not sure I’d want the frequency of stops on local trains on the purple line. Certainly that’d be the last priority— I think it’s more important to use EMUs to get an easy, at minimum, 30 min ride to DC consistently leaving at :00 and :30 at least 12 hours a day.
Xanny t1_ix0f4wc wrote
I don't think making commuter rail trains stop as if they were metrorail makes sense. They serve different functions. MARC will never get the headways at the proposed stops to make "don't look at the schedule" transit a feasible reality, and the extra stops slow down commuters that want to use the line for its original purpose as a DC to Baltimore rail service.
I would definitely love to see what you are proposing though, if we could see that kind of Penn line frequency with that short of a travel time it would be huge for the Maryland economy. But understand that adding stations and more stops is directly contrary to having fast trains between two major hubs.
I don't think its infeasible to eventually widen the NEC to enable local metro trains, but its a really, really far off project we probably can't see realized in our lifetimes. It would have to come after so much other stuff is done - the red and yellow lines, the green line extension, etc. Unless Amtrak and the fed wants to pay for it.
reeking_lizaveta t1_ix1gsf5 wrote
The MARC investment plan from around the same time as this rail plan would have had four tracks along the northeast corridor, allowing MARC and Amtrak to separate their operations. The state has implemented or is the process of implementing some of the proposals from that plan - rebuilding the west Baltimore Marc station, new BWi station, b and p tunnel replacement, and additional tracks between halethorpe and new Carrollton.
Xanny t1_ix1jdak wrote
That would be awesome if they managed it. Would definitely enable that corridor to be used for local rail too which would be awesome.
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_ix0a5m9 wrote
Pretty plz /u/bmorecitydot
Marshall_Lawson t1_iwzqp85 wrote
"Adopted 2002"? So that yellow line is somewhat committed to eventually being built? Yay
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_iwzr5kw wrote
That would be amazing, but I’m not going to hold my breath.
Marshall_Lawson t1_iwzvr6g wrote
Yeah i mean it's already been 20 years...
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_iwzzdub wrote
If I remember correctly, Ehrlich didn’t do shit to support this, O’Malley tried to get the red line started, but that sentient sack of shit Hogan tanked it.
I really hope Moore gets Maryland to build more alternatives to driving.
Longey13 t1_iwzxcn5 wrote
Options similar to the yellow line are being planned - check out the MDOT North/South RTP Corridor study.
Marshall_Lawson t1_iwzznpl wrote
Yeah i got a survey recently about plans to build light rail along the 45 corridor which would be perfect for me.
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_iwzznaz wrote
Good to know! I’ll check it out.
DoggyDaddy82 t1_ix0dtdj wrote
The people on nextdoor app seem overwhelmingly against it and claim to have a majority (nearly all) that supports opposing the yellow line in the recent meetings. I think if there are people who really want the yellow line they need to get to these meetings and voice their support.
Marshall_Lawson t1_ix2ab0x wrote
if next door is against it that's even more proof we need it
Xanny t1_iwzxwmo wrote
They adopted the original 6 line subway plan in the 70s and that never happened.
whywouldjadoit t1_ix090l0 wrote
lol we can dream for 1st world accommodations like other nations have. we’ll never get them tho
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_ix09tyt wrote
I’m not good at being a pessimist so I have to disagree. I can’t help but notice that there are more voices and support for positive change. It’s always going to be difficult, and we likely will have to compromise, but I really think Baltimore and the region can have nice things.
rmphys t1_ix085d9 wrote
For all the hate the counties get in this sub, people always love suggestions that make it easier for the county folk to get here.
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_ix094an wrote
Car dependency sucks
microActive t1_ix1ntdu wrote
I would go to the city more and spend money there if I could get public transportation, and I live only 20m away from the Harbor. I loathe driving through cities - there's people everywhere, tons of merging and one ways, you have to read a paragraph on a sign to figure out how to park unless you shell out $20 to get in a garage.
61797664696A69 t1_ix0gy83 wrote
Transit that connects the county to the city more would make the county a better place to live, would help to bring money from the county into the city, and would mean less cars from the county on city streets! I don't really think it's contradictory to hate on the county while wanting to improve transit to the county, but maybe I'm missing something...
plain-rice t1_ix02owx wrote
I love public transport and I think it would be amazing to have the ability to hop on the train. But I think it will be near impossible to convince the local populations to adopt/fund the expansions. The unfortunate perception is that the metro and subway only bring crime from downtown.
Beyond that is the need. Are people really still commenting downtown at the rate that this is needed? Work from home has shifted the needs for a lot of transport plans.
Xanny t1_ix04swf wrote
From a social sustainability perspective for Maryland's future its in the states interest to try to promote urban, car free living over perpetual car dependent sprawl growth. Maintaining all the roads and fixed infrastructure to sparsely populated areas of the state is a giant money sink and the tax revenues never make up for it, and quality of life will never meaningfully improve (just one more lane bro never works) until people can stop driving everywhere.
The problem then is that there are few places in Maryland equipped to be sufficiently urban to enable car free living. There are centers of urbanism around WMATA stations such as Silver Spring but its tiny specs in a sea of single family detached houses for rich white families.
Baltimore, the city proper, could theoretically support a metro population of up to 10 million in its boundaries without building denser than its densest parts today. The problem then is that people simply cannot all have cars at those scales, car infrastructure is massive and impossible to support, so you need public transit and support for biking and walking over cars.
You don't just build transit for commuters. You build transit to build a city. I feel like a large part of what killed Baltimore in the last century was its transit disinvestment making it pretty much impossible to live a city life in the city. Its a long term move to start rebuilding a real transit network in Baltimore proper, but if its built, and the broken ass zoning code gets thrown out and gets out of the way, people will come to use it.
plain-rice t1_ix06eh3 wrote
Great thought and a good perspective. I haven’t lived in the city for years and didn’t see things that way. A big problem but separate issue is that there isn’t shit for normal amenities in some parts of the city. I grew up in Curtis bay/cherry hill neighborhood and there isn’t a grocery store within walking distance. I can go down to Brooklyn but the shops there are gross or to locus point an spend 2x more.
Back to transportation if I were in charge would be to focus efforts on expanding commercial rail expansion. We have a massive port where billions of goods flow. Given the right incentives and assistance these businesses would love to have expanded access. Then you could model a transport system like the Marc or Amtrak. They don’t own the lines but have the right to use them.
Xanny t1_ix0emf8 wrote
I think we can concretely see with Amtraks performance around the country that commercial rail ownership with transit authority subleasing is a failed model. Hell, even MARC itself is a testament - the Camden line is way less flexible and has worse reliability than the Penn line, and thats because they run on CSX track. The Frederick Line is exclusively commuter with no flexibility and that sucks too.
That being said, there is no reason you cannot have concurrent transit and freight track. You just need 3 or 4 rails rather than 1 or 2, and the rights of way for rail can fit 4 rail lines in the space of a 2 lane with a turning median road.
I am definitely for expanding commercial rail lines, but I think private ownership of them is and has always been a mistake. Amazon doesn't build highways just for their trucks to drive on. Infrastructure is a public good that should be publicly owned and improved. Its in the entire state, nay nations interests to make Baltimore harbor as productive a shipping destination as possible, but if that means new freight rail is to be built, let it be built by the state and have the trains tolled to use the line so that the people can own those tracks and use them for their optimal purpose, or in cases like with modern transit needs be able to expand them to include passenger rail.
Elkram t1_ix1atv9 wrote
The amount of towns in the world with expansive light rail and/or metro systems with a population under 600,000 is quite high. We have plenty of people to warrant a light rail mass transit system. It's really a matter of if there is the political will to make it happen.
DarthMachamp t1_ix00yn0 wrote
Wish the light rail would go to Annapolis
luchobucho t1_ix0gycc wrote
Way too far for light rail. Should be a regional rail (a la septa’s regional rail) line. Run by MARC.
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_ix05ms3 wrote
Wouldn’t that be wonderful?!
If I had my way, a light rail extension would serious effort to reduce the amount of cars traveling on RT 2 and downtown Annapolis via a road diet and drastically improved train frequency.
There be TOD at the stops, with a ton of support for last mile cycling & other micro-mobility modes. Would be nice if it were easy to bring bikes on trains too. Finally, Annapolis needs an e-bike sharing system.
Cheomesh t1_ix2rbe6 wrote
From what I'm told it was supposed to, but Glen Burnie was the compromise (with the AACO protestors basically all wanting exactly 0 rail in AAC). The rail line that used to go further down to Annapolis has since become the Baltimore and Annapolis trail.
Nexis4Jersey t1_ix2o1sr wrote
I think we might see a few of these projects built over the next 10 years..
- The MARC/Amtrak Upgrade plan similar to the 3.5 billion $ Amtrak/VRE upgrade in Virginia. Dedicated tracks and separate tracks for Passenger service along the Camden & Brunswick Lines
- The Baltimore Tunnel replacement for Amtrak , allowing for faster speeds and double the capacity
- Maryland Northeast Corridor Bridge Replacements , allowing for speeds up to 180mph with some curve straightening
- Yellow line extension to BWI Airport station
- Infill Stations on the MARC Penn line in Baltimore
- A switch to EMUs on the Penn Line and DMUs on the Brunswick/Camden Lines
- A Red Line LRT line
- Green Line Extension to Morgan State
- Charles Streetcar replacing the proposed Yellow line from the Harbor to Towson
- Under the Amtrak connects proposal , service to Harrisburg from DC via Baltimore
Aol_awaymessage t1_iwzy8uo wrote
One can dream.
DfcukinLite t1_ix084h2 wrote
I remember seeing this in middle school in the newspaper, I was in 7th grade, I liked the color scheme. Lol
nameisinusetryagain t1_ix0phf2 wrote
It is my understanding that the yellow line is supposed to go down York Road? I have a few logistical questions. It is 2 lanes each way plus sometimes a turn lane. Would this light rail take one of the lanes each way? Would it take up the entirety of York Road? Would cars be traveling next to the light rail?
York Road gets super crazy busy every day during rush hours. Today (Saturday) was ridiculous. Is this light railing designed to alleviate that traffic? As someone who travels on York road regularly, I am trying to figure out how I would use it.
nmbjbo t1_ix0vu0p wrote
Feels bad that edgewood is the only MARC connection in my county, but the nimby groups refuse to allow more cause 'look what happened to whitemarsh'
White Marsh is still a nice place???
neutronicus t1_ix1tt99 wrote
white marsh is still an ikea at any rate
nmbjbo t1_ix22bmx wrote
Nah, I can't buy a hand crafted Sword at IKEA
Sea-Effective-8951 t1_ix28v6d wrote
This map makes too much sense. It seems like there is an anti growth and development of the Baltimore area
House_of_Zbornak t1_ix01c3z wrote
This would be great
DoctaStooge t1_ix0w17x wrote
Where was the proposed "I-95" station supposed to be. I'm assuming somewhere in Hartford county but I can't think where it would be. Bel Air/Abingdon?
epzik8 t1_ix0wuxw wrote
I-95 Station???
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_ix0y62o wrote
I haven't read the supporting documents for this map, but my assumption is either a park and ride (bleh) or a new TOD zone (yay!) around I95 & MD 24.
STrRedWolf t1_ix0yv89 wrote
20 years have passed. While I would originally love this map... well...
- I really think we should start switching over to subway lines instead of light rail. It'll have greater capacity.
- The green line subway extension was part of the original plans and should be completed.
- Some lines may not be viable anymore.
It could use a bit of reworking.
Pepsi12367 t1_ix71cqt wrote
Great original plan but definitely modernize it.
redseapedestrian418 t1_ix176gp wrote
This would be an absolute game changer for the city. I hope it happens.
LJ_Wanderer t1_ix1rg7y wrote
That southwestern yellow line would be sweet.
WillieKeeler96 t1_ix1vgcp wrote
What if we took all this money and just made the MTA buses in the city run on 5 minute headways rather than trying to build trains for county residents who don't want it and won't ride it?
Blatmore t1_ix26mf9 wrote
He's not going to make it happen
antoine2497 t1_ix3buow wrote
I would have never needed a car…
shebang_bin_bash t1_ix0d4gg wrote
I’d love for the HoCo version of that map to come true.
ContinentalOp_RG t1_ix0pl1h wrote
They should have built something like that yellow line 30 years ago instead of the current light rail (although it suits me). Moore will be doing well just to get the red line revived and built even if he has eight years. Anything more than that would be gravy.
waterorsharks t1_ix0uwe4 wrote
Sorry for being uninformed, but would this be an above ground light rail system or a below ground metro?
I'm excited for the possibility either way, but a Metro would be so nice.
notniceicehot t1_ix1z5fe wrote
MDOT has several different proposals they're surveying right now (https://rtpcorridors.com/)- the majority of them are Bus Rapid Transit (some completely seperate from traffic, asome not), but there's a couple of Light Rails and one Metro
stylewiz t1_ix17vbu wrote
the things i would do for that green line expansion
Dharmata101 t1_ix1hp5m wrote
Question 4 passed. -New market for an age-restricted product. This can be taxed. -Now Maryland has money to build this.
Ritaontherocksnosalt t1_ix1wjrc wrote
Omg-take it from Hamilton to Bwi with 1 transfer.
thefalcon3a t1_ix33tls wrote
Opposition from the white suburbs will be overwhelming. Anything on this map outside the city line will never happen.
Illustrious_Listen_6 t1_ix3ec5q wrote
Wishful thinking
DonBoy30 t1_ix40nvy wrote
man, dodged a bullet there. If we had good public transit, we may never have been able to experience those cool little scooter things.
Well_whatya_know t1_ix0jrpi wrote
In the early 2ks the light rail tried to run a line to Annapolis, knocked down houses and all and people who didn't want the "rif Raf" stopped it. I hate peoples bs unwillingness to change, and lack of care for anything but them selves.
substandardpoodle t1_ix1z47d wrote
15 years ago at my warehouse in Linthicum I hired somebody who lived in Baltimore. All my other employees were from Anne Arundel County. That poor thing had use public transport and it took her two hours to get to work and two hours to get home every day.
Cheomesh t1_ix2rgfn wrote
Weird. I've taken the light rail end-to-end and it didn't take two hours to do the entire thing.
jwalker3181 t1_ix3uwzd wrote
I'm sure it wasn't just hopping on the light rail, when busses are involved there is a huge time suck involved
substandardpoodle t1_ix6u3h7 wrote
I think she had to walk 15 minutes from home to the bus and it was definitely 15 minutes at the other end where my warehouse was. I don’t know why I’m getting downvoted for saying that. Maybe she was lying to me but she eventually quit because of the time it took her to get to work. She had children.
POGTFO t1_ix1wsll wrote
Yes!!! Would be so much easier for getaways when I mug someone.
seminarysmooth t1_ix0s1v7 wrote
The blue line looks too redundant.
A_Damn_Millenial OP t1_ix0tmp5 wrote
With the exemption of three stops, the blue line is literally our existing light rail.
seminarysmooth t1_ix0u7vp wrote
That makes more sense.
tommykaye t1_ix0z7hg wrote
But imagine the crime on the red line! /s
Electrical_Appeal_21 t1_ix23wph wrote
It’ll be interesting to see the disappointment you all will have in Gov.-Elect Moore in eight years. You all voted for him like he was the Second Coming.
S-Kunst t1_iwzvcvc wrote
I no longer think that a comprehensive transportation plan needs to run through the center of the city. It implies that the center of the city has goods and services which cannot be had elsewhere, and it further gashes the already scarred landscape. Plans like this one are popular, as they follow a decades old idea that everyone wants or needs to travel in town. More tracks or paths need to be circulating outside the cit to take people from Towson to Catonsville or other outer areas which are now accessed by cars.
Xanny t1_iwzynu7 wrote
The downtown does have something that all those other places don't have, the opportunity for density. Towson, Catonsville, etc were built for cars. They are seas of parking lot, endless stroads, and no amount of transit buildup with close the distance between places there. The only actual city in the Baltimore region is Baltimore, and the only place we can build actual dense walkable urbanism is in Baltimore.
> further gashes the already scarred landscape
Roads did that. Rail takes up a fraction of the space, most of the right of ways of at grade proposals for rail in the area are in existing road medians or along rights of way that were set aside decades ago with nothing there, and any proposal worth hearing today should be tunneling under downtown. The red line proposal was so good because it had a tunnel from the road to nowhere to Boston St that crossed the whole city with a half dozen stations. Likewise, the best of the NS MTA proposals is the heavy rail option because its the only one that commits to comprehensive tunneling in the downtown - the light rail proposals all put at grade tracks that get stuck in traffic like the existing line in the city proper.
Previous-Cook t1_ix011i4 wrote
surrounding areas weren't built for cars, they just adapted more quickly than the densely urban parts of Baltimore could. The entire metro area grew up around a trolley system.
Xanny t1_ix02tvk wrote
Catonsville less so, it still has a bit of old town left to it, but most of the time nowadays when you talk about Catonsville people are going to sprawl mall on 40 not what is left of the small town on Frederick.
And even that Catonsville is one street surrounded by single family setback houses with quarter acre yards. Its not got the density to support anything but car dependency.
Towson though. Its population tripled from under 20k in 1960 to 1970, and since then has just turned into a giant shopping center. Rosebank is better suited to be closer to a walkable city, but again, a lot of these areas are singular main streets surrounded by setback detached single family houses with driveways and garages.
In theory, sure, you can rezone entire towns and have developers bulldoze single family housing to put up 5 over 1 mixed use after you build a subway through it. Thats kind of what has happened around a lot of DC metro stations like Silver Spring or Clarendon. But those are islands, they are tiny strips of urbanism made possible by the train but then still are surrounded by a sea of car culture impermeable and incompatible with the urban ambitions of the core around the station.
Downtown Baltimore still has the opportunity to be that, to be a true livable, dense, walkable city. The zoning changes are less severe, and while a lot of rebuilding is needed, a lot less of it is pissing off white boomers who don't want to lose the sprawl suburb they bought into half a century ago. It just makes way, way more sense to put fixed infrastructure into the city itself first, make it livable, and then grow out from the core than to try to retrofit areas that exist only in opposition to the urbanism we are seeking to achieve. The white flight sprawl is only there because it doesn't want to be Baltimore. Trying to turn it into a city like Baltimore is fighting a mental battle from a losing opening position.
gaytee t1_ix004xi wrote
So just because I should be able to buy groceries in my neighborhood, I shouldn’t be able to get downtown for fun with friends? Anyone who wants to get from towson to cville can do it on the various busses and trains that can connect you. The point of light rails is to move a lot of people more efficiently between popular areas, busses are mid grade, last mile always generally sucks a bit and that’s a portion of why scooter and bike companies have blown up, is the ‘last mile’ commute.
In general though, in every city, People do want and need to travel downtown more than any other portion or neighborhood. are you serious with this post?
ElevenBurnie t1_ix0denb wrote
I think the poster believes that just because they don't need to travel into downtown, the thousands upon thousands of people that do are unimportant.
S-Kunst t1_ix3ez28 wrote
Your gripe over my opinion makes me think you are one of the coddled suburbanites who see the city as your entertainment center. I would think my idea of having more axial transit paths would appeal to you. It would allow you to cross one part of Balt county to another without having to travel, first, all the way in town, transfer, to another spoke heading out of town.
Is your idea of spending millions of dollars for public transportation just so you can go downtown for fun? THAT is the reason the light rail was installed, to get people to the stadiums. For most people downtown is the old business district, its where the courts and city offices are located. Far fewer people regularity venture into that area, over the past 40 years, as there is not much but these civic and corporate institutions there. It would be great if the downtown became more populated, but look at the proposed map, What you see is more of the same. Ways for suburbanites to get to entertainment venues.
gaytee t1_ix4h8g4 wrote
My point is that you don’t have to go downtown to get around the county, but you chose to skip over that. To get from cville high to randallstpwn high it’s one bus. To get from cville to towson it IS faster to go downtown and get on the 8 @ gay/Fayetteville or take the light rail from Pratt. You’re being dramatic.
Transit in baltimore does actually work decently AND the map OP posted makes perfect sense for rails, while busses can compliment along routes that aren’t necessarily directly into the city center but between neighborhoods or cities.
And for what it’s worth? I’ve lived, owned and paid taxes on property on mccabe, fawcett, Evesham, and many other “not so perfect” streets in this city while using the transit system just fine, so go fuck yourself.
[deleted] t1_ix0vodg wrote
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No-Lunch4249 t1_ix00mz3 wrote
Some of these MARC infill stations feel like a mistake, but overall this makes me hate the present for not living up to this past vision of the future
10/10 I hate it thanks for posting