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whats the point of giving the mta more money when they are going to spend it wastefully?

They hiked fares when they had the highest ridership year after year. There is zero real connection between how much revenue MTA makes and now much riders pay. It's a deeply corrupt and horribly run agency.

I don't think spending it on not increasing fares is wasteful.

They can neither raise fares nor get more money by becoming the second least efficient transit organization on the planet instead of the first. Tough bar I know, but I really think they can do it if they try.

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The MTA couldn't get out of its own way for a mere 350mil. Remember this is an outfit that can blow through a billion dollars a year, with no visible changes to anything they touch, and then beg for more,

$350 million will get you the ability to fix one of the broken elevators for a week

1970 fares with current inflation is $2.26

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There's also a fuckload more service and upgrades happening now than in 1970. Not to mention the fact that transit got a lot more in federal subsidies back then.

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> There's also a fuckload more service and upgrades happening now than in 1970.

Is there a source?

I saw a recent article that Boston had more bus service in 1975 than today.

MTA did massive cuts in 2010 that were never restored

Most of the 2010 cuts have been restored, and some lines, like the L and 7 receive more service now than ever before due to CBTC upgrades. Not to mention the 7 and Q extensions, station rehabilitation, elevator retrofitting. The MTA in the 1970s also had huge deficits, and in 1970 raised the fare by 50% to plug the holes. Track conditions were bad, maintenance didn't happen like it should have. Hell, as late as 2019 the MTA was still working on the maintenance backlog from that time, which was part of the reason a state of emergency was called in 2017 and is why there seem to be service changes every weekend and night.

https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/The_New_York_Transit_Authority_in_the_1970s

Im aware that maintenance was bad.

I want to see vehicle service hours from then to now including buses.

How much do you think MTA executives make?

https://www.newsday.com/beta/long-island/transportation/table-of-top-mta-salaries-s19072

higher fares wont deter poor people they just simply wont pay for it, and that leads the mta back to square one

Okay... even if you got rid of all those people you're still well short of $350m

Hey guys. What would you say to autonomous (driverless) buses in the city?

I don't know about buses, but in the 70s, local trains on trunk lines ran every 4-5 minutes during rush hour compared to every 2-4 today. In total, there were about 6600 daily trains compared to 8200 in 2016.

https://www.nytimes.com/1976/08/14/archives/215-more-daily-subway-runs-will-be-eliminated-by-aug-30-215-more.html

http://web.mta.info/nyct/facts/ffsubway.htm

Good info, thanks

Please bro just $350m more bro I promise please it’s gonna run perfectly as soon as we get it bro

1970 fares were absurdly low and are the main reason the subway fell into disrepair...this was long before the corruption and wastefulness that occurs today.

what about wages, everything else is going up but not those!

More like, what's the point of giving the MTA more money when NYS uses it to fund other projects. Not saying MTA isn't wasteful, but the state def. fks them over with their random spending of their funds.

Finally found the one government agency you won’t defend i guess

And yet people on Reddit don't see congestion pricing as a money grab. Sheeple gonna sheep.

So now do you see why your comment didn't make sense?

https://cbcny.org/research/track-fiscal-stability

> In 2019, MNR delivered 0.57 vehicle-hours of service per employee hour worked in vehicle operations, which is 14 percent more than the 0.50 vehicle-hours at LIRR. MNR delivered 0.79 vehicle-hours per vehicle maintenance employee hour worked. If LIRR matched MNR on both metrics, the improvements would allow staffing reductions of 13 percent in vehicle operations and 39 percent in vehicle maintenance. Total hours worked at LIRR would decline by about 2.3 million hours without reducing service. These reductions would save up to $242 million annually by 2024, and would allow a headcount reduction of 1,114.13

Here’s 2/3 of the MTAs request without increasing fares, raising taxes, or reducing service.

Now tell me Janno Lieber, why can LIRR employees not be as productive as their MNR counterparts?

Here's a link to their budget for the next 3 years.

MTA BUDGET

Even if they take all the money from it and dump it into the ocean if it reduces car congestion in the target areas it's a good thing.

The source is from 2009 but assuming they've mostly stayed the same, those salaries are extremely low. First year attorneys in Big Law often make more than those people. The comp package for entry level jobs in Big Tech also equal that pay.

And these are executives with far more on their plate than some first year associate. No wonder leadership is shit. We pay them less than people starting their first jobs.

Did they think of making people pay to use the MTA? They could make that in a week off fare evading

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It's honestly disgusting how NY State starves the MTA while literally nowhere else in the state is economically viable anymore.

...I criticize government agencies quite often. What are you even talking about?

Unless I’m mixing you up with someone else I’ve seen you defend NYCHA and ACS. Two of the absolute rock bottom public agencies in the city. They’d be in same category of inept as the MTA for me.

This solution will “drive” consumers away from Manhattan.

That’s because fares only covers operating cost. Any system expansion or capital projects come out of a different pot.

Just two weeks to flatten the curve...

I have never defended NYCHA or anyone at ACS other than the overburdened underpaid staff. You're just making things up or you're confusing me with someone else. Nice try though!

$350 million is 70% of what's lost due to fare evasion. If there was no fare evasion, the MTA could even reduce the fare cost.

A lot of people in this sub would have a tough time deciding between complaining about hiked up fares or defending the practice of fare evasion. Choose one.

https://www.cityandstateny.com/policy/2022/12/mta-spending-1-million-month-private-security-guards-amid-crackdown-fare-evasion-subway-system/380798/

>Five hundred million dollars – that's how much the Metropolitan Transportation Authority system is currently losing each year because of fare evasion, transit leaders recently said.

Almost all of the Hudson Valley, the Capitol Region, Rochester, and Buffalo are all growing and having little economic renaissances right now. A lot of the state North of NYC is actually doing really well in the post-2020 economy.

They NEED the 350 mil for “consultants” of course

Because I dont trust random internet shits to pay up

Youre a welcher.

Fares DONT cover operating costs. They are but a fraction. Fares alone dont cover operating costs, ergo this "ridership is the issue" line is completely missing many important factors.

Fair. But little economic renaissances don't fund a state of 19 million, the city of 8.5 million with a metro area of 19 million does.

The state funnels a lot of its resources into NYC already though. I grew up in the Hudson Valley and lived in multiple parts of upstate NY over the years, and people in most regions feel like an afterthought because of how much the state sends to NYC.

New York overall is a much healthier place if communities are thriving everywhere, and with the NYC housing situation being messy right now, it's extremely beneficial for the Hudson Valley and Capitol Region especially to provide alternative options to people looking to move out of NYC for cheaper housing and more space.

$350million from where?? The federal Govt has a secret basket of free money??

serious;y, where is this money coming from?? why are these crucial details always omitted

Isn’t it only during rush hour?

Fare increases are highly regressive taxes. Something like 1/3 LIRR commuters make under 50k a year.

I pay $243 a month for LIRR. At least its $243 of untaxed salary but still.

Congestion tolls will be 24/7. During the hearings, Manhattan residents who work the overnight shift, 12am to 8am, outside of Manhattan expressed concerns about how this will affect them directly.

I just googled and saw the peak and off peak values. Interesting.

In theory I’m ok with the plan, but I seriously hope public transit gets the support it needs to pick up the slack.

MTA is a jobs program, thus it is not wasteful in their eyes

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Why should fares even cover operating costs? Do tolls even come close for all road maintenance and new projects? I doubt it but happy to be shown different...

"A lot of funding" does not equal what NYC generates or is owed given its role as the state's primate city. Refusing to properly fund the MTA is a joke.

I wonder why the state might possibly provide more resources to NYC than other areas. It couldn't possibly have to do with it shouldering a huge majority of the state's tax burden and being the home of the bulk of its population? Shockingly, it turns out it's not particularly cost efficient to live in suburbs or rural areas...

No, i dont believe you.

I think youre a lying liar.

Oh, I agree. But this goes to the point. High ridership doesnt cover operating costs, let alone capital projects. So saying "they raised fares when they had high ridership!" Is fundamentally missing what rider fares can pay for.

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The entire city budget is basically a glorified jobs program. The actual return on taxes paid is atrocious.

But you wont. Youll delete your account and disappear like all the other trolls do.

It doesn't feel proportional to people living outside of the city. That is my point. I guess you had trouble following that with all the sarcasm you're swimming in.

I don't know the breakdown in how state and city taxes fund the MTA, but if the city tax is already covering the MTA, then how much more should the state realistically contribute to the MTA while other parts of the state have transportation issues that also need attention and less local taxes to contribute?

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Schrodinger's economy. Where the other population centers of NY State are experiencing a Renaissance while unable to afford funding more transport in the state.

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Insane take. The city would be nothing without the subway

So is your point of view that all NYS outside of NYC is a dump and most of the taxes they pay to the state should go into a transportation option they will never use?

Not sure how that's disagreeing with the fact that it's financially mismanaged.

ROI is not a good way to look at government spending

It is if your definition of ROI is inclusive of what is good for the citizenry. Which is which I was referring to. Returns to us. Not financial returns.

I think the economic engine of the entire state should have the backbone of its transportation network funded properly and not used as political leverage by Albany. Especially since at least half of people in the entire state DO depend on New York City's economic success.

Also, most of NY State outside if NYC is in fact quite poor and economically distressed. That's due to globalization and lack of innovation though.

>Also, most of NY State outside if NYC is in fact quite poor and economically distressed. That's do to globalization and lack of innovation though.

This is an oversimplified way of describing the reality for about 11.4 million people.

Considering that all of those people live in the great economic and innovation wasteland that you think it is, maybe Hochul's plan to have NYC businesses pay more into funding the MTA is a good idea?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-01/hochul-wants-a-payroll-tax-boost-to-fund-nyc-subways-transit

Afterall, most of NY doesn't have an economy or any business to contribute to this tax.

It's called economics, buddy. The numbers don't lie. The rust belt is real, and it was a deliberate choice by politicians to hollow out the country.

If the state also agreed to hand over control of the MTA back to NYC, sure. Otherwise it's just a blatant ploy for cheap political points.

Yeah, times are getting tough. Have you seen the prices at Eleven Madison Park lately?

Thank you. You've taught me more about economics in this thread than I learned as econ major. Probably because I studied in one of those desecrated upstate schools 😔

I agree with having the MTA (or at least the part that functions in NYC) be under control of the city. Then the city could fund it through their own taxes, and the people living in places like Buffalo and Syracuse, who never use the MTA wouldn't have to pay for it.

They could then reinvest those funds locally to innovate 😍

Upstate universities being good are a legacy from a different era. Same reason the Erie Canal is still there. Dude I'm not trashing upstate, but pretending it isn't poor and seen much better days is dishonest, especially when this all started because you insisted those areas are experiencing an "economic renaissance."

Also, I studied at NYU. So cut the crap with slinging around your degree like it makes your bad opinion more valid, it's immature. You should also know better.

>Dude I'm not trashing upstate

You literally called it not economically viable to live outside of NYC in New York. That's why I responded to you. I can't stand the "us vs them" attitude that some people have in regards to NYS / NYC. The entire state benefits from a healthy NYC, and NYC benefits from a healthy state.

>Also, I studied at NYU. So cut the crap with slinging

>Upstate universities being good are a legacy from a different era.

Lol 🤡

How can you say "the return is atrocious" when "the return" is the whole city. Everything about the city.

Would we be better off nixing it entirely? No? Then obviously the return isn't atrocious.

Thanks for the clarification!

Yes. The return on the investment is terrible. Money is misspent on a multiples basis.

Who wants to live here anymore I know I don’t they just keep figuring out ways to raise prices in the camera lights are ridiculous smh

The return is the entire city. The city is nothing without the subway.

Uh ok.

oh just 350 million okay sure.....

....who pays that again?

After they get to 350M, they triple the fare hike

I think what he’s trying to say is that you can’t measure ROI like you can a business. The subway is just as important to the city as the fire department or sanitation department. Or the department of transportation. Get rid of any one of those, and things turn real bad real fast.

I don’t know if MTA can especially with that stations that are curved, it’s get hard for the driver to see when they closed the doors.

The subway is the only way to move millions of people. The streets would be choked, whether by cars or pedestrians.

I'm not even sure that matters. This sub loves to point out the Japan trains, but in this case I think it's worth pointing out Japan's trains have so many jobs that are strictly unnecessary, are also for-profit companies and they do fine as far as keeping costs reasonable.

London has lots of curved stations. A couple of CCTV cameras and tvs at the end of the platform solve that far better than a second person who also might have limited view.

I dont believe you.

Repeating your lie wont change that.

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Stupid ass comment. Literally there are workers who slave OT who make more than the chairmen of NYCT, LIRR, Metro North. This ain’t Goldman sachs my boy

I’ve said multiple times in this thread that I’m not talking about financial returns. I’m talking about what we as citizens receive back

Which is why it should be managed appropriately. Mismanaging an essential service is dangerous.

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Lmao ever heard of a camera

And to add to the hypocrisy, they’re okay with fare evasion, but not toll evasion.

Didn't you say 10:1 odds?

Also: what exactly are you so hung up on? What percentage decrease would trigger a repayment? 1%? 6%? 14?

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You made the claim, you name the %

This might be a quibble because you didnt name a number

Axe token booth workers/subway greeters will save nearly 200M. Add some other redundant and useless jobs to chopping board - there's your 350M saved

The same article year after year

Lmao dude the conductor opens and closes the doors and makes all announcements, you know what else is the conductors job, keeping his head out the window approaching and leaving a station to keep an extra watch. The conductor also has his own emergency stop as well as the train operator so now that's 2 people that can watch for an emergency. Also trains have doors on both sides as any NYCer knows, I wonder how often the wrong side would be opened while people lean on the doors because they instead try to task the driver of the train with driving....making announcements, opening and closing the doors and whatever else. Also conductors are used in something called RTO (rapid transit operations) flagging in which they are used to flag train traffic for crews and contractors doing large jobs under live train traffic. Stop regurgitating garbage without actually knowing anything. If you think MTA workers just sit around getting paid free money and not doing anything. People driving trains and buses have to schedule a simple day off months in advance. Have little to no down time and forced overtime constantly. One or 2 little issues along their run, which happens constantly and whatever small amount of time they had for a meal or bathroom break is gone. People in other departments are working under dangerous ass conditions under live traffic and on the track with no hazard pay, breathing in horrible air very often and only make decent money when they live at work with their overtime. The largest majority of workers...those within the 5 boroughs, tend to more miles of track, move more passengers, with more trains then their metro north and LIR counterparts and are paid less money for the same job and don't receive railroad retirement benefits because the MTA regards it as a "transit" system instead of a railroad in order to save money. If you think the MTA is wasting all its money on overtime you should do some more research. Contractors are constantly paid double or close to it an hour to do the same jobs that MTA employees do, the MTA wastes spends money on "advisors" than they do on men doing the actual work. The MTA makes horrible decisions and prioritizes the wrong projects. All MTA workers would love to be paid a fair normal wage and have less or even no overtime. The MTA cries broke every time it's time for contract negotiations....like it will be this may....but they just received billions during covid, hochul is working on plans now to secure them more billions, they will soon receive more billions in the form of the congestion tolling which has been approved just not finalized on pricing yet. Yet they raise bridge tolls, tunnel tolls and fare tolls constantly. You are calling the workers grifters and redundant, get mad at the right people, the horrible beurocracy that is the MTA. Fire all the chairpersons and high management of the MTA and run it correctly.

You're being closed minded

We want more money!

But you're terrible.

So?

Fares are not taxes. They are cost of use.

Life is regressive. Bringing up each instance of it makes folks sound clueless.

Fares are regressive. Food is regressive. Housing is regressive. Sex is regressive. Happiness is regressive.

There is no need for the government to independently intervene in all areas of our lives. I'd prefer that all/most of intervention towards equity goes through a single economic policy - taxation and wealth distribution.

Specifically on fares - the MTA fares are already plenty progressive. Poorer folks commuting from deep in Bronx pay the same fare as richer folks commuting two stops in Manhattan.

"just"

👏 holyfck dude.. someone that gets it!! So many are so mad at their own life choices when it comes to employment that when the news sensationalizes a story about overtime or wasted money, they weigh it against their pockets.. the Railroad vs Transit so sad for the same reason contractors are.. it's the same exact job except the wages are double or triple the pay of those that actually do it or have done it for the agency outsourcing - here being the MTA.. and most of the time, the title sounds better.

And sometimes the agency closes a title, downsized by retiring and letting go of people.. won't reopen the position.. then outsource under a different title.. or wait a few years, change the title to something less appealing to actual qualified individuals, keep the ones they couldn't get rid of under the original pay, drop the pay and starting rate on the less appealing title, extend the amount of time to reach top pay about 10+ years (which was once close to starting pay before title change), then outsource because they need the workers..

So when ppl get upset at the MTA workers, because of whatever misconception, know that they are forced to pay union fees to be inclusive to a lot of unsaid politics.. but more so.. forced to pay union fees to a party that won't represent your best interest EVER.. so you are getting fired.. you are seeing someone else getting paid more for the work you're doing.. you are not getting overtime because the ones that get that overtime are the ones with the original title or been there for years.. they see the big wigs play with the time vs money so they do the same.. instead of overtime retitled / new entrant get a shift change..

It's not the worker.. they suffer.. it's the ones that are still a part of a older regimen and the ones those allowed into their group..

MTA workers (aside from the ones that close the doors when I'm trying to connect trips in a timely manner) are the MVPs of NYC.. ok . Maybe the jerks too, I mean, how happy would I be if everything I wrote above was something I was apart of then have a rider curse me out because I closed the doors and spat in my face .. 🤷

The only thing is this is kind of an imaginary number in terms of real money. No fare system on earth can prevent 100% evasion, and we cannot discount the cost of preventing it. We would need NYPD on every single bus in Queens basically lol. I hate fare evasion but I don't see a cost effective way at eliminating it. I am all for more attempts though, whether better spot enforcement and higher fines, but we should note we likely will never fully capitalize on the lost fares

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Jfc, really fucking well thought out point your making here, huh? Really makes me trust what you say, given what a deep thinker you clearly are.

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I type quickly.

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The fare system is broken. Adjust it to account for distance traveled while providing an unlimited option to save $.

53% of all money spent is spent on paying people.

LMAO ever heard of the cameras with MTA don’t really work