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reevelainen t1_j1okh3c wrote

Reply to comment by HotSupermarket3682 in TIFU by thinking I have to practice with a pro before having sex with my girlfriend by [deleted]

Tells a lot about expectations we have of men these days.

Edit: Due to downvotes, I'd say this subject is too sensitive for further discussions.

−151

maohvixen t1_j1pmvh7 wrote

Dude I don't mind whether my partner is a virgin or not (some women might care, but that seems to be a very small percentage, and those women are further split among specifically wanting virgins or experienced men), but, and most women seem to agree with me on this, I would be upset if my bf cheated on me.

Hardly seems like all that much to expect someone to not cheat.

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reevelainen t1_j1po3q7 wrote

There isn't excuse for cheating, you're absolutely right and my comment surely didn't mean to defend his actions or justify them. Still seems to me that a lot of men are more shamed about their virginity the older they get. Being self-confident on that area too helps finding a companion too so eventhough someone finding a love 'dont mind the virginity', it's somewhat plausible that the experience in sex increases self-confidency, and that often the key to find someone to love. It's not anyone's fault.

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BewBewsBoutique t1_j1qhhmh wrote

The issue people have with dating virgins isn’t the lack of sexual experience, it’s the general lack of dating experience. Men without dating experience basing their idea of dating on porn and online forums with other dateless men. Then they end up doing things like cheating on their girlfriends with hookers because they’ve idealized sex. What woman wants to be treated like that? That’s not a virgin issue, that’s a mentality issue.

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reevelainen t1_j1qirjt wrote

You're absolutely right. Being a virgin doesn't usually rise the self-confidence which is highly appreciated in dating, it's not the... being a non-virgin. Obviously people who fall in love doesn't care whether the opposite is virgin or not, but I'd say many men carry it like burden after certain age and that doesn't increase self-confidence which is, again, essential and is seen very attractive. A virgin can be a very self-confident too, obviously but isn't that easy I would imagine.

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Thrww27 t1_j1p9gmm wrote

Quick glance to your comment history indicates that most of them are downvoted to oblivion. Maybe it's time to reflect a bit, the problem here isn't the subject.

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reevelainen t1_j1pb3i5 wrote

Quick glance? A very picky one too.

Edit: I ser your karma isn't through the roof either lmao.

−27

[deleted] OP t1_j1pdxf7 wrote

[removed]

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Plokmijn27 t1_j1qesa6 wrote

no at this point he is definitely getting downvotes for no reason

even when he says something pretty reasonable, normal and sociable, like several times in this very thread, he still gets targeted with downvotes.

i didnt stalk his profile like you so I cant say about his other posts, but in this thread, there is definitely some downvote bullying happening

−3

reevelainen t1_j1pemhk wrote

Don't reflect your own insecurities at me. I'm not the person for you to try your kitchen-psychology diagnostics. You don't know anything about me, and if that's your argument, there's some seriously sick twist in your style of dialogue. You can't just assume people are this and that, represent a group you don't know they do, aren't what you think they are. If we're going that route, I might aswell make the a conclusion that you are even worse, maybe the rapist?

−18

Thrww27 t1_j1pgtr2 wrote

Out of arguments so throwing strawmen it is? Figures. I'm not assuming anything, you yourself have said being DUI and that's a telltale sign of low intellect or very bad addiction. Drunk drivers are scum of society.

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reevelainen t1_j1pjvpi wrote

Hahahah, keep reflecting buddy. That doesn't determine me as a person as much at it does to you and I got nothing to prove to you.

My boss gave me a second chance. My society gave me a second chance. To be honest, they're lucky to have me, as I am a part of the garbage recycling system here. Atleast this scum of society does something for it. There really aren't that many doing this job, and they truly struggled to find someone to substitute while I had my licence off (3months). I trained the substitute.

I made a 2km max of drive on an empty road, realized what I was doing and tried to turn back. My personal car got jammed, so I walked back. Police called me, and I told everything. Got minimum because the fragility of my job (hard to find a substitute)

I already live with the fact that I betrayed the trust my company and the society had given me. Now I'm even better servant as the experience made me truly value what I had earned and what position I maintain.

One of the bosses told that because I'm calling with the garbage recycling company, and setting things with them straight-up, they don't have to do it and saves them a ton of work. He said it's rather unique in our company and this is second biggest in the country. Therefore I'm not only emptying these people's garbage containers and area collecting posts, I negotiate so that we have to drive them all. But even professionals are humans. I didn't cause a dangerous scene eventhough nothing defences drunk driving. It was a risk, and I of all people know that, because I see people taking lethal risks almost every day in the traffic, and I'm trying to work among there. We all make mistakes, and luckily my last one wasn't straight up dangerous to anyone but myself.

−6

Thrww27 t1_j1pke7p wrote

Did you learn the word "reflect" from my past post or why are you repeating it. And whoa, what an essay, it must be a sore spot to you but I'm not that interested. Explanations are like assholes, everyone has one.

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reevelainen t1_j1pktce wrote

Yeah, well not everyone attacks me with full force even in Reddit over one mistake like you did. Most are polite people that are capable of having reasonable conversations like adults. I don't think I ever had to write such to anyone. But that tells a lot about you.

Edit: A bit ironic to question my intelligence when you're surprised me defending myself while you're comparing me into a rapist. Like what did you expect, to agree with you? I might not be a highly educated intellectual but you really aren't that good in having a dialogue with even some sort of manners.

−3

Thrww27 t1_j1pn231 wrote

>A bit ironic to question my intelligence when you're surprised me defending myself while you're comparing me into a rapist. Like what did you expect, to agree with you? I might not be a highly educated intellectual but you really aren't that good in having a dialogue with even some sort of manners.

If you knew how to read you'd know that I didn't compare you to rapist, I said you are still one notch above them.

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reevelainen t1_j1po6zw wrote

Are you out of arguments because you're attached in the details rather than answering with something reasonable?

−1

Thrww27 t1_j1pq58w wrote

Copying me again, lmao. And no, I'm just correcting you since you can't read.

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reevelainen t1_j1ps3t2 wrote

Yup, not a perfect reader. English isn't my first language though, but it doesn't seem it matters that much. But you can't have a conversation. Did the Grinch actually visit you this christmas?

−1

Thrww27 t1_j1ptbgy wrote

I've not tried to hold up a conversation, you have just deliberately tried to defend your actions.

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Thrww27 t1_j1pmrsb wrote

Boohoo

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reevelainen t1_j1po9k8 wrote

Save your tears, it's not that serious buddy. But I won't judge your cry, it gives a relief sometimes.

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gaellamaas t1_j1p1lb9 wrote

what the hell are you talking about? The guy was putting pressure on himself because he was insecure, not his girlfriend, not any of his friends, himself. Tells us absolutely nothing about societal expectations of men because as far as I know nobody is expecting a virgin to pull out expert pornstar moves.

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reevelainen t1_j1pbt22 wrote

No point of answering thoroughly since you had to went emotional with it. We're not getting anywhere with such tense athmosphere. The subject rousing so much anger tells a lot.

−43

I_Thot_So t1_j1px15h wrote

How was their response emotional?

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reevelainen t1_j1pyaj5 wrote

It means that since I've managed to say a triggering thing, my points wouldn't make any difference to the conversation anymore. It started with the wrong foot. I would sound like an asshole even more. Replies would be intentionally personal and mocking. I've already had a miserable dialogue with some pissed individual and it's exhausting.

To answer your question, they're mostly filled with hate in these kind of occasions.

−15

ErdtreeSimp t1_j1pyhsr wrote

Stop being emotional lmao it was a normal reply

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reevelainen t1_j1pzflc wrote

Don't know what 'it' you're talking about. But yeah, I don't have my own emotions involved.

−6

I_Thot_So t1_j1q7yjc wrote

No one is triggered. Triggered is a psychological response to trauma. Not thinking someone is wrong.

People thinking you’re an idiot is not them being emotional.

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reevelainen t1_j1qe26q wrote

Take a look at another dialogue I had with this individual. One was so filled with hate because something about my poorly phrased comments just made one go nuts. He went through my history like a stalker and would find a detail to paint me as dark as people can with the most personal weapon one can find. If that's not an action of hate, I don't know what is. As if I wasn't even human anymore, lmao.

Having such determinism to cancel me is indeed a sign of triggering something sore.

0

Gelly13r t1_j1qobte wrote

Going through a public profile isn't stalking. Its literally public. I don't know what commenter did that to you, but it's literally public and a good indicator of a posters views and/or bs.

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reevelainen t1_j1qpn9a wrote

Don't know what one did but decided to comment anyway. Yes, my profile is public and I stand behind everything there is. This is the only account I have and the one doing the digging had like 4 comments in total which implies one's doing a new one everytime. One weaponized the detail in my profile and prevents anyone doing the same to one because one makes a new one everytime. That's why it was ridiculous. The details are there, everyone can see they've got nothing to do with these dialogues. One chose a bad indicator.

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gaellamaas t1_j1xzn41 wrote

Buddy, you didn’t say a triggering thing that caused me to be emotional, I’m not even sure how you think my reply was emotional. I’m just confused as to how your take from this post was people have too high expectations of men. Please do explain, I’d genuinely love to hear it.

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reevelainen t1_j1y5frg wrote

People? He seemed to think so, because he ended up getting rid of his virginity with professional help. I've learned due to comments under my comment that those expectations are just imagination of men like op, and there simply aren't any expectations towards men.

0

gaellamaas t1_j22x7ml wrote

Obviously there are unrealistic expectations of men, just as there are unrealistic expectations of women. However my issue is you seemed to bring up this issue out of nowhere, this post doesn’t highlight the hardships men face from unrealistic expectations. If you want to go sob about men not being treated fair, this isn’t the place for that.

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reevelainen t1_j2303h3 wrote

Isn't op a man? And he thought there are expectations towards his performance? What IS more relevant place to talk about men's issues? Why it's so important to you that men's issues are NOT brought up in front of your eyes?

Sobbing reference is tasteless.. It's like screaming your misandry. Let me guess, it's a metaphora of fragile masculinity?

"Go sob about men somewhere else" is exactly the emotional side I've been talking about. You just had to choose the insulting, toxic route. Sensitive topic I'd say.

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gaellamaas t1_j2323zs wrote

OP putting expectation upon himself on his own accord as a result of his own insecurity is simply not at all in line with what I’d consider an example of “unrealistic societal expectations of men”. I think it’s very important that men’s issue and mental health are spoken about, though often it is brought up in inappropriate places in order to distract from the actual issue and I felt that this was one of those circumstances.

Also I’m not sure how from this brief interaction you’ve gathered that I’m a misandrist, I am a feminist and I believe in equal rights for men and woman and when people like yourself jump into conversations that feel irrelevant to that topic, I perceive it as you trying to push some “men are oppressed” agenda. As for the sobbing comment, I just think it’d be more appropriate discussing topics like somewhere other than in the comments of a post where OP literally admits that his actions were a result of his own stupidity. It’d be best we end this discussion here as it seems my sobbing comment got you quite emotional there.

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reevelainen t1_j2347ws wrote

So, as a feminist, it's your right and duty to supervise in which conversations men's issues are brought up and police that? Eventhough it's a man talking about them, relating them and therefore maybe understanding them?

Because you're a feminist and not an eqalitarian, I find it easy to understand that you fail to see the bigger picture. Because this is about a man, you'd only see the action he did, and refuse to see what made him do it. Why this individual have insecurities men can relate into?

I didn't push any agenda, people just got triggered from it, which isn't entirely wrong because we've had some rational dialogues too, but hatred is always too much and that's my failure since the original comment was too provocative. That's not pushing men are oppressed agenda that's simply trying to understand the situation from man's point of view.

I have no emotions involved in this conversation.

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reevelainen t1_j2357a5 wrote

If a woman would open herself here and told she felt the pressure of being inexperienced and would be worried her boyfriend to find out she IS experienced, would you be equally mad at someone pointing out expectations towards women and tell one that this isn't the place to talk about women's issues?

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reevelainen t1_j2303r4 wrote

Isn't op a man? And he thought there are expectations towards his performance? What IS more relevant place to talk about men's issues? Why it's so important to you that men's issues are NOT brought up in front of your eyes?

Sobbing reference is tasteless.. It's like screaming your misandry. Let me guess, it's a metaphora of fragile masculinity?

"Go sob about men somewhere else" is exactly the emotional side I've been talking about. You just had to choose the insulting, toxic route. Sensitive topic I'd say.

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DSoopy t1_j1pdiwv wrote

Or maybe you are just wrong? You will never grow as a person if the moment you get criticized all you can think is they are too sensitive for the topic

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Plokmijn27 t1_j1qeds7 wrote

no this is reddit

it doesnt matter if you are right or wrong, its a hive mind

−2

reevelainen t1_j1pe7kx wrote

The claim isn't a fact as it is. OP, however also thought experience is expected and is a male. I can't really relate into that anymore because it's been twenty years when I was a virgin, and haven't exactly been unexperienced for a while now. I got rid of my virginity quite early so I didn't feel the pressure that much, but I would think it'll go up as years go by. To my knowledge, unexperienced companions aren't exactly preferred among more adult people, so I would imagine the pressure must have been hard.

−6

reevelainen t1_j1pesid wrote

It's much more reasonable to go on these conversations when there's no trigger like my comment there. The same conversations goes on elsewhere, where the attitude isn't so full of hate. No point of continueing in here.

−6

Thrww27 t1_j1oyad9 wrote

Go play your victim card somewhere else, that was embarrassing to read.

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reevelainen t1_j1pbfjo wrote

What's with all that hatred? I see this is a sensitive subject to you.

−12

vconcernedacademic t1_j1pp663 wrote

The ridiculous, incredulous, impossible to reach expectations in question: not have stds to be date-able! Wow such difficult high expectations we have of men

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Lofter1 t1_j1q124h wrote

yeah, I don't know wtf this guy is on about. probably a virgin himself, cause everyone I had sex with was very comforting whenever I underperformed, convincing me it's okay, it happens, that they still had fun, etc. Only expectation was that I'm not selfish and finish what I started in some way, shape or form.

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GsTSaien t1_j1qavpw wrote

Nah it isn't a sensitive topic, your take is just bad.

There are fuck all expectations on men, just respecting consent and washing your body puts you above a large part of men looking to date. This guy cheated and tries to convince others it was for a selfless reason, this is not an issue of expectations.

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reevelainen t1_j1qdvon wrote

I'm not saying it's an issue of expectations. He is. He tries to justify those actions with expectations he thinks she has about men.

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GsTSaien t1_j1qeg0m wrote

You said this says a lot about the expectations we have on men.

It does not, expectations on men are pretty damn low and OP is a douche for even trying to justify cheating.

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reevelainen t1_j1qeqak wrote

Yup. Had totally made the expectations up from his head. A non-existing thing.

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GsTSaien t1_j1qfghu wrote

You are using sarcasm, but the words are true. That is some hentai plot level trash logic. You need to be a douche to think cheating on your partner is somehow for their own well-being.

There is a bit of embarrassment that you can feel if you are unexperienced, yeah, but there are no expectations. Even then, if you were worried about some type of ed you would buy a blue pill not cheat on your partner. I am sorry but there is no excusing anything op said, and him not getting away with it is no reason to justify his selfish and moronic logic.

Definitely awful that he has an illness from it, no one deserves life long punishment for being a douche while young and stupid, but there is no defending his behavior. It was not anyone's expectations that pushed him this way, only himself.

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reevelainen t1_j1qg5bc wrote

Who said there's defending in his actions? Hell no. Communicating is a thing and there's tons of other solutions they could have solved this. Ending up cheating is delusional and we should be worried from where these men are finding these expectations that doesn't exist.

I'm not familiar with that umm...hentai plot level trash logic and I don't want to, thank you. I quess it makes more sense to consume cartooned porn rather than real porn made in oppressive misogynistic environment but I don't have enough experience to truly say anything.

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GsTSaien t1_j1qhepg wrote

Men find these made up expectations from other men who don't know what they are talking about. Being self concious about your sexual performance is natural and ok, but those expectations aren't coming from us, and that line of thought from op is nothing but coping for selfish behavior.

If I had an inexperienced guy, as long as he was around my age and not too young or much older, it would be unlikely to bother me unless he made it an issue by drawing attention to it. From my perspective that is not a problem, if anything it is exciting to get a chance to blow someone's mind. I don't expect to get off the first time I am with a new partner anyway, that takes patience and being a lot more comfortable.

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reevelainen t1_j1r30q5 wrote

So instead if comparing each other's experience of dating women, they have made a conclusion completely out of the blue that women have some sort of glass roof of requirements towards men eventhough any non-violent hygienic unemployed would do? I would love to dig in the root reason why that had happened. It sounds rather dangerous tbh.

I don't think it's about expecting the other to be experienced or even a non-virgin but these experiences are a big part of masculinity most of the times. Mostly everyone wants to feel desired, and if that just never happens, I'd imagine it's hard to break the loop and suddenly turn into attractive dude in the eyes of the other. The feel of being desired often helps the self-confidence which is attractive feature. But again, this is just my experience as a man so it's not your widely researched knowledge about manhood and such.

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GsTSaien t1_j1r5g9t wrote

Stop it with that sarcastic tone. Your mockery is counter productive to intellectual honesty.

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reevelainen t1_j1ram94 wrote

Oh, I'm sorry. My academic background is super thin and most of my english might seem a bit rude as we Finnish people are famous of being bad at small talk. I'm driving a garbage collector truck so I bsrely have even any privileges expect being harassed way less and not having to be afraid of getting raped. While I try to execute feministic thinking and dialogues, I must often time sound like a complete moran, I'm sorry.

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GsTSaien t1_j1rbbvs wrote

Your english is fine, don't play dumb please. I do not fundamentally disagree with your point of view, I am only highlighting the nuance and why your first comment was not well received. And although a bit rude you did not say anything specifically sexist when you point out how masculinity feels and the pressure men feel to be good partners. You did, however, intentionally mischaracterize my talking points, and then attempt to invalidate my perspective.

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reevelainen t1_j1rd6yy wrote

I get your points and not going to lie, I'm not a bot. My views are subjective as I'm already in the pit by trying to participate this after getting downvoted this much. I can't just exclude my annoyance causing some intentionally toxicity to appear in my speeches under this comment, same way there's annoyance in comments towards me.

I'm trying to find the dark spots in masculinity to develop it, not to defends it's last dark castles.

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GsTSaien t1_j1reamf wrote

That is alright, I appreciate the honesty! If it helps in any way, the main issue people are taking with you is that you are implying that op's behavior is a result of the victimization of men from society. I know you aren't defending his actions, but you are eating up his excuse nonetheless.

Obviously there is pressure on men to be good lovers, everyone feels that, and feeling desirable is a huge part of sexuality, and it being expressed within part of masculinity is not a bad thing. Not feeling desired is a huge blow to confidence and self perception, that much is true. However, that is internal and related to insecurities, not pressure from society; thus, portraying op as a victim of society's expectations of men felt frustrating to others.

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reevelainen t1_j1s9g75 wrote

I have no idea from where he'd get his ideas. Nothing to do with masculinity, healthy one atleast.

Umm... Correct me if I'm right but are you truly saying that men that would get bullied about their appearance, you're saying it's internal and because of their own insecurities? It's like it's justified to mock one if he's feeling insecure? Please, help me out here. I don't know what you mean. How are the ones coming from society different?

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GsTSaien t1_j1s9nvd wrote

Who said anything about bullying? Or appearance?

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reevelainen t1_j1sbrl1 wrote

They're all linked together, there literally isn't one without the other. But yeah, it literally is a long conversation.

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GsTSaien t1_j1sd4x0 wrote

They are unrelated to this discussion.

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reevelainen t1_j1sf7tx wrote

Then you must've experienced different masculinity than I had, because I'm having hard time understanding what you mean. How aren't self-confidence, appearance, they way men are expected to represent themselves, what to wear, how to adjust their appearance, basically two sides of the same coin?

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GsTSaien t1_j1sggch wrote

We were discussing factors related to societal pressure not everything related to confidence

1