Submitted by anogre8me t3_zvpi8q in todayilearned
How exactly does one count rodent hairs in tomato paste?
First you extract them, then you read them under a microscope.
Extraction: add 100g tomato paste to 2L Wildman trap flask, add 20 mL castor oil (the light filth sticks to the oil), add water to neck of flask, stir, let it sit for 30 min, stirring every 10 min, trap upper inch of sample (the oil floats with the filth attached) and decant into beaker, raise water level again, let it sit 10 min, repeat decanting, repeat this step, then discard the water in the 2L flask and add fresh water and the sample in the beaker that you have decanted. Let it sit 10 min, decant one last time. Finally, filter whats in the beaker through a circular filter paper connected to a vacuum, this way they water and oil goes through, leaving just the light filth and tomato pulp. That filter paper gets read under a microscope, count the pieces you find.
This is fascinating. Thanks for answering.
Absolutely
I’m curious, does your job ever affect the way you feel about food, or eating in general?
Not me. But thats more to do with me than the job. I'll eat almost anything if it tastes good. Some people in the department it definitely does turn them off of certain products.
Other things I've learned in the job include: peanut products have consistently high levels of aflatoxin, which can cause cancer. Same with Mexican pumpkin seeds, or pepitas. Brazil nuts have "rancid" results very consistently, regardless of how fresh they are. On the other end of that, coconut oil seemingly never goes bad. We have had a shelf life sample the entire 6 years I've worked there that is still the same low levels of rancidity as when it was started.
No, no, don't stop.
Ummmm...I shared most of what I could think already but ill try with some more tidbits.
2% milk often actually has 1.5-1.99% fat.
The leftover ground almonds that we test for aflatoxin often end up in makeup products, I've been told. We sell the ground almonds cheap and I think they use the oils.
Almonds that fail aflatoxin testing often end up in cow feed. Because of that, dairy products need aflatoxin testing too. But don't worry about that one. Somehow the levels don't really transfer to dairy products. But....if it does, its in such low levels that it won't affect adults, but could affect infants. And so there are different detection levels required if the product is specifically meant for infants. Other than a cows digestive system essentially diluting the aflatoxin levels, bleach is the only thing that will kill it. Quick harvest and proper storage conditions of almonds is important in keeping these levels low, because it grows on mold.
In butter, moisture, fat and salt testing is done in a series of tests without needing to test separate portions for each test. Its called the Kohman method.
Fat testing in meat is done in an apparatus called Soxhlet. Visually, I think it looks like Walter Whites set-up in Breaking Bad.
So I need to bleach my baby’s milk, good to know, good to know.
writes this down
This is so interesting, I’ve wondered in the past how they measure these things. Thanks for sharing!
But products contain fats, carbs, and proteins- everything that a bacterium needs to grow. Coconut oil is just mono-, di-, and triglycerides of caprylic and capric acid so unlikely that anything could grow on that.
In chemistry, fat and oil are interchangeable terms. The oil oxidizes and goes rancid. Coconut oil doesn't oxidize anywhere near as fast as others.
The point I’m making is that you need all 3, whereas coconut oil only has 1. Yes, being capric and caprylic vs linoleic, linolenyl, or ricinoleic acid esters would indeed preclude oxidation. But you can get this from basically any hydrogenated oil, be it palm oil or soybean oil.
I have a feeling you have more in depth knowledge than I do. But all I can say is that we do the same testing on palm oil. The tests are Free Fatty Acid and Peroxide Value. Palm oil results start to rise in a few months, and coconut oil hasn't risen in 6 years.
Edit: there may be more variables at play than I am aware of. But in our lab, they have the same storage conditions.
Yes the palm oil is rich in oleic, linoleic, etc. but fully hydrogenated palm oil (e.g., stearine) should not show oxidation due to the lack of double bonds.
A TIL inside a TIL
What does one study to qualify?
I work in the chemistry department. But they hire anyone with a degree in any science, ideally. And essentially any college degree can get you hired in the company. They also hire people with HS diploma at assistant levels and are willing to promote and train you if you put in the work. I only have a HS diploma.
My department manager was an engineering major. Actually, less than half of the department went to school for chemistry.
Edit: I should clarify that the test was originally part of our "food safety" department but that department is 1/5th the size of the chemistry department so they trained us and transferred the testing to the larger department. We also have a microbiology department but they are already understaffed and have to work 10-16 hour shifts, they couldn't take it on.
Probably quality assurance and food standard regulation certificates
One, two, and then - wait for it - three.
"The really gross part is that rodents don't shed" or so they always told us years ago.
this isn't accurate, rodents do shed. rats shed all the time when they clean themselves it's just not noticed because of how how fastidious they are about cleaning
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You know we grow vegetables in shit right?
My favorite /r/kitchenconfidential moment was when the sub mocked me for suggesting that produce that fell on the floor could be washed and used safely. You know, produce. That stuff that literally grows out of the ground, which I can assure people is quite dirty.
Friendly reminder for folks that just because people work in kitchens doesn't mean they know jack about food safety. Sometimes I see people suggest that folks should ask food safety questions in that sub. You should not. Very definitely should not.
That's probably got more to do with the low cost of produce and high rates of drug usage in the average kitchen, better safe than sorry especially for a head of lettuce that costs a dollar or whatever.
Also kitchens are frequently greasy so it might not be practical to clean some types of produce.
Also shit that gets dropped often bruises and again, produce specifically tends to be a tiny fraction of costs.
I think I understand why the people at kitchenconfidential were mocking you.
Certainly many places have policies to not use stuff that's fallen on the floor. That's more laziness than anything else though. And sure, there may be quality issues that keep you from using something. It remains true that produce can be safely consumed after falling on the floor.
If your floor is so greasy that you can't wash a piece of produce that fell on it then your floor is the problem. Grease can be washed off though.
If someone thinks that produce can not be made safe by washing that is profoundly stupid. Don't defend that idiocy. Just mind bogglingly stupid.
Not sure what drug use has to do with anything though. Are you saying it's justifiable that people believe stupid things because they use drugs?
(TLDR because I started rambling, but short version is that most restaurants are required by health codes to not make an effort to salvage or clean dropped food items because of how profoundly stupid a lot of cooks can be, which makes washing unreliable as a policy, even though it absolutely can be done effectively)
It's less to do with what's actually, logically safe and healthy and more to do with health code regulations, rather than just laziness. Yeah, if you drop something on the floor and it's practical to clean it, you absolutely can clean it and continue to use it without getting anyone sick. Unfortunately, for restaurants, you've got health authorities who can absolutely shut you down if they find out you don't do everything by the book (which washing and using dropped things isn't permitted in a lot of areas), so for restaurants it's almost always less of a headache to just throw it out if it drops, especially when you have a large number of employees, some of whom definitely aren't bright enough to remember to lie to a health inspector if they're ever asked about what's commonly done around the workplace (and who aren't bright enough to properly wash dropped things in the first place even if it were allowed)
Also, and more importantly, r/kitchenconfidential is a weird competitive circlejerk made up of professional cooks who are constantly trying to prove themselves as better than each other. So of course they'd never drop anything on the floor, and even if hypothetically they did, then of course they do everything perfectly and by the book, unlike all the other hacks there who are clearly just posing.
Doesn't matter how clean it is, the traffic in kitchens will make it dirty pretty quick. I don't know of any kitchens that require their employees to change their footwear when they go to the restroom. Then they come back and walk with those same shoes that were walking through piss (men's restrooms) and walk about in the kitchen.
I mean a kitchen floor is probably more dirty than a field, no?
No. Not by a million miles. Not by a million billion trillion miles.
Kitchen floors are cleaned. Fields are not. Fields very literally can not be cleaned (because then it wouldn't be soil anymore).
What about other types of contaminants? I assume there are certain chemicals commonly found on kitchen floors that aren’t found in fields right
They're certainly different, but not better or worse. You do have to wash stuff that falls on the ground, just as you have to wash stuff that comes out of the ground.
A field is made of dirt
I don’t know why but this made me laugh so hard I blew snot all over the new t shirt my kids got me for Christmas
Try a tissue next time
hehe
Night soil! Good stuff. Nom.
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This is exactly what I told my son when he told me there were bugs in tomatoes lol
Yeah, I saw the documentary with Matt Damon.
Mr Lahey has joined the chat
People were dying because take away burgers were not cooked well done, the acceptable level of fecal matter mixed in with the process of meat.
The truth is the are bugs and such in real life, and the nicely packaged food in the supermarket had its start out in the real life world. Food companies do what they can (or at least what is needed) to remove these things in the processing of food but it can’t be 100% otherwise we would never eat. So it becomes a sliding scale of cost vs potential negative impact.
One stage in human evolution was carrion eaters, they’d wait for a predator to kill an animal and then just chase away the predator
There’s some vestigial behavior that’s definitely been carried on from that- like dry aged meat and “garum” sauce- so I don’t think it actually bothers people that there’s cooked bugs in their food
Beef jerky does make me feel like a vulture to be fair
I read somewhere that America allows a certain amount of insect parts per 100g of chocolate citing pretty much as you did. Too much cost to make it worth it. Europe’s limit is zero insect parts.
Even if US chocolate didn’t taste like puke, I am not sure I would eat any anyway based on this.
>Europe’s limit is zero insect parts.
I highly, highly, highly doubt it. Even if the standard is zero, there is still likely insect parts in the chocolate.
The U.S. doesn't allow insect parts because they just said "fuck it", they allow insect parts because it is incredibly difficult to prevent every insect part from making their way into the chocolate.
Unless every chocolate factory in europe is in a billion dollar clean room, I guarantee Europe has insect bits in their chocolate.
>Even if US chocolate didn’t taste like puke, I am not sure I would eat any anyway based on this.
It's butyric acid, and it's just Hershey's chocolate, which I love by the way. The United States has more chocolate than just that one brand.
That's like having some bad curry from one Indian restaurant and swearing up and down that all Indian food is terrible.
Also, I hate bidets.
I agree with everything you mentioned.
But bidets are fucking amazing.
Yeah, he was just wrong about bidets.
>Europe’s limit is zero insect parts.
Where's your source?
Because it's literally impossible to make chocolate or coffee without some bugs getting in.
Oh yeah? Where are you people getting your lab grown cacao? Because that stuff has plenty of bugs. Do you hand pick them out with tweezers, even the barely visible ones? Is the entire line of production sealed?
There are bugs in your chocolate, like any other.
>Europe’s limit is zero insect parts.
No Europe has no official limit for insect parts actually. Guess I better start avoiding your nasty unregulated chocolates!!
Wait, no limit? It could just be one solid wad of bugs?
Basically you’re gonna eat like 16 cockroaches every year. Just don’t think about it.
Extra mystery protein is always good
They eat my food, so it's only fair
Anyone who is complaining about this, should go to third world countries and see how they make food. I'm seen some of the stuff done in Mexico and Vietnam.
In Vietnam raw chicken was being taken out of a bathroom like sink in the back of the store on the ground visible to everyone around. Most disgusting thing I've ever saw. This is unfortunately more common than not.
When I was in afghan a local village elder would always bring the marines tea. It was the best tea but he would usually steep the leaves AFTER he had slaughtered some livestock and had his hands deeeeep inside whatever it was. You just have to turn your brain off at some point
Plenty of bugs on all sorts of things we eat.
Put some strawberries in water and watch.
Nope. I'll just continue to ignore the fact that I ever found out about this and keep enjoying strawberries, thankyouverymuch.
Extra protein for my gainz, yo.
But seriously, wash fruits before eating
Raspberries and blackberries are the ones that shed the most creepy crawlers for me once I wash them. Is what it is. Still eat them.
Yeah I mean rinse your food, it's not rocket science
Not rinse, you have to soak them to see the worms come out. They're tiny white worm things.
Oh wild... Well at least they've got good taste in fruit
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Don't you worry, it's all stardust.
And to the dust we shall return
If you don't want to eat bugs you're going to need to stop breathing.
You gonna eat the bugs til the bugs eat you
Because if the 'acceptable levels' were zero, there'd be nothing but soft drinks and pop tarts to eat.
Not even those tbh
pop tarts have ground up beetles on purpose to make the carmine, on top of the accidentals
Seems like some Pop Tarts do indeed have carmine color on the label, but I really don't understand how it's possible to farm small bugs in the quantities needed (tons) to supply a giant food factory. Imagine if you had to go out and collect 10 tons of ants.
Something about this doesn't add up, and Googling around it seems the Internet is overflowing with anecdotal information on this where everyone is getting their info from vague sources.
> but I really don't understand how it's possible to farm small bugs in the quantities needed (tons) to supply a giant food factory. Imagine if you had to go out and collect 10 tons of ants.
I don't see why not, we kill billions of chickens every year. I would think farming bugs would be much easier.
This is a big reason to cook food. Wheat, corn and other grains are stored for long periods of time in silos. This is home to a lot of pests. For example rats will live reproduce and die in silos filled with grain.
You're more likely to get food poisoning from raw flour than you are from raw eggs. Fun fact.
I read "Mailman feces" and had to pause
Not the mailman feces!
as if home kitchens would pass a health inspection
you eat there everyday.
I've seen full on grasshoppers/locusts in prepackaged bags of salad. A katydid once! They're literally built to camouflage into the plants so it is what it is.
I'd be so conflicted about that; on the one hand, talk about a sign of freshness! But on the other hand, eww, a bug!
Turn the bag over in the store and look, that's as much as you can do
So, some important context. Unlike the EU and other modern nations, the US sets rates above which regulatory action must be taken. Regulatory action may still be taken below those limits depending on the circumstances. Most places have no line above which action must be taken. This is the US being more strict than normal, not less strict.
Contaminants are a part of life. "No contaminants" is not a real option. Inspectors in the US and elsewhere look at the process and determine if appropriate controls are in place. If they're not they may take action, regardless of the amount of contaminants. This is how most nations work. The US is different because we require action when above a said amount.
Big thing to remember is that it isn't "you can have up to this much without regulatory action." It's "you must control for contamination and we'll consider context for deciding what's acceptable unless it rises above the max and then we have to take action."
My mom still brings up eating chocolate covered ants and grasshoppers and stuff in the 1960's on purpose.
There was a Merrie Melodies cartoon centered around a can of chocolate-covered ants. The premise was “here is food that some people like,”
Proteins. And poo.
Oh yeah I leart this from an episode of Frasier when Niles talks ro school kids.
I've seen that one!
Wow, oregano can have a bunch of stuff in it:
1250 or more insect fragments per 10 grams, 5 or more rodent hairs per 10 grams
How much would 1250 insect fragments weigh just by themselves
Ignorance is bliss.
Honestly, on this one, ignorance is ignorance.
Do you even understand what that phrase means it seems you don't.
New word for me: thrips
“Thrips are minute, slender insects with fringed wings and unique asymmetrical mouthparts. Different thrips species feed mostly on plants by puncturing and sucking up the contents, although a few are predators. Entomologists have described approximately 6,000 species.”
If you do some gardening you’ll eventually get to know the little fuckers
Now what I want to know is whether the acceptable levels for all the contaminants add up to at least 100%.
Because if so, I have plans to create an FDA-approved superfood made up of nothing but maggots, thrips, insect fragments, foreign matter, mold, rodent hairs and insect and mammalian feces, and so on...
I think once it's an official ingredient the limit goes away. See: sesame got listed as an allergen, so companies had to take measures to prevent cross contamination... or intentionally add and declare sesame. https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2022-12-22/tough-new-labeling-law-for-sesame-prompts-companies-to-add-it-to-their-products
i saw this exact thing in a smash bros video from like 3 months ago. you really learn stuff like this in weird places
I could've gone me entire life never knowing this, but thank you
When people claim they will die from "food poisoning". If only you really knew what was in your food/had been on your food.
Isn’t that the ingredients list on hotdog packages?
Acceptable level of feces. Um okay.
It's the shit threshold, Randy. Sometimes it's a little under, sometimes it's a little over.
I want to know how many thrips is safe?
I love the way mammalian feces just rolls off the tongue
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Aflatoxin and other mycotoxins, primarily from aspergillus mold, are a big concern with raw wheat flour and corn products. Rodent excreta is not difficult to sieve out. Wheat and corn for human consumption is usually randomly sampled and tested for mycotoxins but nothing requires this, though most grain sale contracts specify testing and thresholds.
Mycotoxins can cause severe illness (usually not lethal though) and are not deactivated by normal cooking temperatures.
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"Or something some dude threw in while thinking of meat." George Carlin.
Yep, I watched Frasier too.
The bigger TIL here is that the US has several orders of magnitude higher incidence of food-borne illness than any other developed nation. It isn't even close.
In part because of how much we eat fast food, and how many of those fast food locations have extremely gross soda machines (think specifically the part that stores ice).
The easiest way to avoid food poisoning while eating out is to avoid ice, cilantro, lettuce, and mayonnaise. It's not a guarantee but your odds get better.
It's bizarre how "The Jungle" is making a return.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle
So we've got robber barons as well... what's next, Indian raids and Wild West gunfights?
Shit happens. And bugs.
I, too, have read The Jungle
I went to a Purdue University's Ag lecture where the professor was talking about FDA Acceptable Filth levels. Sounds like this was what he was talking about. Pretty gross when you think about it.
As a refrigeration technician, yall should see what the inside of an average restaurant ice machine looks like. Even the places that gets theirs cleaned every 3 months like recommended have nasty ice machines.
Yup.
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I can't handle Thrips in my food
> thrips
I actually had to look this one up.
The answer is none. Nope nope nope. 🤢🤮
And do you feel six hundred dollars per pound is a reasonable price for vegetables?
Have fun eating nothing
Dfrickster87 t1_j1qen3k wrote
This is my job. 3 rodent hairs per 100g of tomato paste is allowed. 4 is a fail. Insect fragments, there is no limit. 1 rodent hair with skin still attached to it is automatic fail.
In 6 years I haven't seen any skin still attached to a hair. 2017 was the worst year I've seen, alot of samples with 4 hairs or more. This year wasn't too bad.
But also, its all really random. You can't use the product after testing it so only a portion is tested representing a huge sample size. If a "fail" sample was to be retested, it would very likely have nothing in it. If a passing sample was retested, it wouldn't be surprising at all to come up as a fail.