Submitted by MarketplaceMallBTV t3_110mnlc in vermont
I’ve seen a lot of discussion this winter about how it actually does get to 50 degrees in January every year and the record low snow pack is just weather and temps above freezing for the next 2 weeks in the alleged coldest month of the year is actually called Indian summer. I would really like to hear the excuses this time.
TLDR: Don't confuse the climate with the weather.
After living in Vermont for about 35 years, I think it's less climate change deniers than people remembering all the other years Vermont weather was wacky.
Just yesterday I looked up this data. Well not February, but the months that we have full data for. I'm using heating degree days which measure both "how cold" and "for how long?" Average temperature should have somewhat similar results. But neither are anything like using max or min, like someone did in a poorly informed LTE to Seven Days about the news that Burlington winters have warmed faster than any other place in the US that has a good airport weather station.
Anyway, here are the heating degree days (base 65F) by month for this winter, the average of the last five winters (which were already influenced by climate change) and the percent difference.
It’s called February thaw. It’s common. Don’t worry the cold will return
In my 58 years I’ve never heard of “February thaw” before. “January thaw” yes, February never. We’re 16 days from March, and the next week is above freezing. The “cool” weather will return, but I believe the “cold” weather is behind us.
Normal, not a climate change denier.
Indian Summer ("Indian" is a slur here, meaning liar, as in Indian Giver) refers to a warm spell in late fall. I've lived in Vermont for more than 50 years and "believe" in climate change, as if someone has to believe in something so obvious and proven. That said, the weather in Vermont is highly variable. I remember snowy early 1970s winters and a couple of non-winters in the 1980s. That snowmaking has been a necessary part of ski area operation for decades demonstrates that every winter isn't a postcard perfect Vermont winter.
I'm glad this has been a mild winter (ignoring last weekend) because that has reduced the cost of home heating, which has skyrocketed and is a huge burden for many people. The skiing and outdoor recreation has been pretty good too -- I spent yesterday snowshoeing through 3-4' deep snow on Laraway Mt. It may not look like winter where you are, especially if you're near the lake, but it definitely is in the woods. Enjoy the warm weather this week, who knows what the following week will bring.
I mean, "The Year Without A Summer" is documented in many Vermont history books, including the book "History of Swanton, Vermont".
However, weather anomalies should not be confused with a changing climate, though there was a mini-ice age sometime in the 1800s that might explain the lack of a summer.
"Climate Change Denier" show us your proof that the climate is changing in a significant way over the last 100 years. Specifically what data have you read and compiled and researched to lead you to this morally superior claim? Or the fact that we are having a warmer than average winter during a la Nina winter. Ofcourse it isn't normal or average but that isn't clear evidence that climate change exists and no reasonable scientist would agree with your claim its literally the exact same thing as when it gets very very cold and people DENY global warming ... same theory reversed so you are the same as who you are against...
There are only two record lows in January in the last 10 years, 20F set on 08Jan15 and -15F on 31Jan21.
There is only are four record highs in the last 10 years, 46F on 10Jan16 and. 60F on 11Jan20, 53F on 12Jan17, 49F on 30Jan13.
Remember, Ground Hog day. Tradition would indicate a false spring just because a rodent didn’t see its shadow on a given day. This should be an indication that false spring isn’t uncommon.
Edit: High and low source.
The weather has been changing since the beginning of earth’s atmosphere. It will continue to change long after humans are gone
it's a rat not a scientist
The Pennsylvania Dutch got up to some freaky stuff. Hiding a pickle in the tree during Christmas…
My man I’m not a climate change denier but pretty sure noise in a data set isn’t showing a shift in the median… in other words u need lots and lots of high fliers to singify a shift.
There's definitely two things that I see happening:
Climate change. The average temperature has increased by 2°F in the last 100 years. There's no denying that. If you look at the historical weather patterns for Vermont, specifically the temperature data, we have definitely had more erratic temperature shifts in the last 20 years, meaning more thawing, probably due to the destabilizing of the jet stream (which is giving us this weird weather right now).
Confirmation bias. You don't need to point to every single temperature shift or seemingly strange weather pattern as "climate change". This honestly makes it harder to communicate with people who refuse to believe in climate change because you just start sounding like a broken record and honestly what's happening here is just subjective.
Climate change is real. It's in the data. But telling other people your subjective experience of the weather = proof of climate change just makes them chuckle to themselves. The best way to approach it is scientifically, because that's what this is.
Well yea when one of the worst volcanic eruptions in human history spews ungodly amounts of ash into the atmosphere...the weather is gonna be impacted.
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The 10 hottest years on record were this century.
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How many centuries do we have data for? So 10% of the last 100 years were warmer than the other 90% and that is supposed to represent global warming or significant climate change? Stop allowing politics,emotions, or peer pressure to get you to agree with nonsense
You ever seen a graph bud? The trends exist, it's not up for debate. Whether humans are causing it entirely or it's part of a larger cycle of natural climate variation you can debate a bit. But when it lines up very closely with the industrial revolution...kind of hard to ignore IMO. But you might disagree.
Yes I've seen many graphs. Which graphs are you talking about? Again my original post asks what specific data have you seen that points to the obvious conclusion you have come to. Take away politics emotions and peer pressure. Do you know what mostly influences weather? Do you know what percentage of our atmosphere is co2 vs other greenhouse gases? I'm not saying climate change isn't real I'm just saying the OP is using personal.observations of normal weather patterns as proof of global climate change
We are barely into February. It’s weather. It doesn’t work on a definitive time line. End of January beginning of February are essentially the same thing. The cold will return
I agree with you, but it never helps to say that something you're debating is "not up for debate". Just give this dude some links my guy
Climate change on planet Earth is Always happening. It is the Natural nature of the planet. 2 billion years ago, it was changing. Back then, Man kind could not have survived such conditions. As a person turning 60 years old this very week. I remember Winter of 1981. For every year, that I can remember, February has Always have had warm spells. This week, in New England it was warm. Just like every year. Why do I remember it? Because, our family dog passed away that week. The greatest dog I ever knew. A Beagle named Skipper. I remember helping my Father dig a grave, getting ready for his passing. Guess what, 2 years later my Grandmother, on my Mother's side past away on Groundhog Day. Guess the temperature that week? In ty he 50's. For 40 years plus they say we are at doomsday. If you Actually believe that line of BS, then, I have a bridge to sell you. The Brooklyn Bridge. I can give you a good deal. Lol. Ok, truthfully, if you actually believe that we can Actually change the planet like that, then you deserve to lose everything in your life. Think about it for once. Short of a Nuclear War. This planet is Billions of years old. Mankind has only been around such a short time. Take in account Mankind has truly been powerful since the Industrial Revolution. Given that, there is still No way that we, as Man, have affected our environment to that point yet. Even with our planet's growing population. It statically impossible. You are being lied to. If you look at Unaltered data, the planet has not gained a degree for the past 100 years. They had to alter the data to try to make their case. Look it up. 40 years from now, we will be in the Exact same place weather wise.
It is far from definite that the phrase has anything to do with the slur.
We’re two days away from halfway. Not exactly barely. And like I said before, the ten day forecast is temps above freezing. So 10+12 is the 22nd. Practically March. I will confidently say that the “cool” weather will return. The sun is marching north, and that is on a definite timeline. It’s ok to admit that you’re probably wrong. In fact, it’s quite healthy. And if I’m wrong, you’re more than welcome to DM me and rub it in.
The 4 warmest years on record have happened in the last 5 years. It’s a major problem, no rain in the summers along with more days over 90 degrees grows each year.
First time in Vermont?
It was really really cold like 2 weeks ago so idk what your point is
You're right. I'm also wrong about Indian Giver, I've always understood it as a gift that is taken back, not the expectation of a reciprocal gift. Thanks for correcting me.
The climate is changing but it’s not a record low snow depth.
I love trout fishing and the last three years of no snow melt combined with little rainfall have really beat up the streams. The water heats up and gets low by the beginning of May now. We used to have good stream flows well into June, but now it’s over in a month.
In my best Boomer voice I say, "really cold?" Really cold was my first winter after moving to Vermont when there were 30 days straddling January/February that never made it above zero, and bottomed out at 35 below zero.
Boomer anecdotes aside, and I'm sure non-transplant Vermonters or especially those from outside of Chittenden County have colder stories, I'll agree with others that you have to look at averages over time. We used to get below zero regularly, it only happens occasionally now. It's so memorable when it does because it is so seldom.
I agree personal observations are not meaningful but it takes a 10 second google search to find meaningful peer reviewed studies.
Would love to see the sources of the unaltered data. Any links?
Um, yes we have. C02 has drastically risen in the last 100 years.
> Given that, there is still No way that we, as Man, have affected our environment to that point ye
source please. because in my opinion, 200 years is plenty of time for the dominant species on a planet to affect that planet
Bingo. Hey OP, tell me what impact Vermont has on the global climate?
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First off, when numbers Are actually compared, CO2 levels actually don't mean shit. Actual data shows temperature has remained the same. Unaltered data showed that from 1890's to the 1980's, the Earth temperature remained the same. That was actual scientific studies. Then, they altered the data to fit the narrative.
Second, ever hear of Carl Sagan's history of the planet stretched out onto a calendar year? Given the billions of years that the planet is. Mankind, in all of his existence arrives in the last couple of minutes for the year. Now, meaning Mankind shows up at December 31st at 11:59 and 45 seconds. Now, break that down to the Industrial Revolution and forward, we are just about 1.5 seconds compared to the actual age of the planet.
Now, however, Mankind can destroy the planet in mere seconds with a Nuclear War. Aside from that, one volcano eruption outputs more CO2 than what Mankind does in one year.
Want to know what scares me more? That, we are the closest we have ever been to complete annihilation do to a Nuclear War than I ever remember. We have a Corrupt Asshole sitting in the White House. Hell bent to get us into WW3 to protect himself and other politicians on both sides from everyone knowing their corrupt secrets. There are certain people on both parties that have been funneling money through Ukraine. Their families getting rich from that corrupt country. And, no one is protesting. We are virtually on the cusp of WW3 and where are the young people protesting? I turn 60 this week. Never had any kids. But, my God, anyone and everyone in their 30's and below should be in the streets protesting. Your World is About to be destroyed by our Corrupt, dementia filled of a President and yet there is no whisper of a protest? Where do you think this Ukraine thing is heading to? Just more involvement by the US, with no clear strategy laid out. As we send more equipment over, it just commits the US further in. Again, with no winning strategy or goal in mind. Then, before, anyone realizes it, we are completely in WW3. Only outcome of that war is all out Nuclear War. And with it, the end of ALL LIFE ON THIS PLANET! IF you truly believe all that false data about so climate change, how come your not out there protesting against dementia Biden?,And, corrupt and too old Sanders? They are leading you, me and everyone else to extinction. Yet, not a word. No protests. No shouting out about how you want to live. Until you shout out to the true enemies, until then, your words are meaningless. Until then and only then, they are words from fools. For they enemy is right before you. And you ignore him because your pride tells you so. Only, it will be too late by the time you realize your senseless pride was wrong. And, the true destruction of this planet was Biden and those who foolishly allowed him to be in power to do so. Need only look at yourself in the mirror as seconds count down for Mankind.
I can’t comment. I’m not a climate change denier.
Search on google, Tonga volcano eruption. Its amazing people just see this and say global warming people please do your research. Dont let government feed you lies everytime some single bad thing happens.
If anyone pays attention to a weather map they will see that the reason the weather is crazy this year has everything g to do with wind and nothing to do with climate change. The wind that has bean coming across the ocean to California has bean straight moving when it's typically wavy. When it's straight it doesn't wave up and pull arctic air down to mix with the hot air streams to make snow storms. Please just watch a weather map. It's all readily available. Also being a Vermonter for 40years I have road my motorcycle on Christmas atleast 4 times about every 4-6 years. We go threw cycles. It's normal
I agree, I’m intrigued. The second part was a bit ranty for my taste but I would love to see the hard data on the first part.
I would also point out that if the meteor that drove the last big extinction event didn’t kill all life on the planet, neither will nuclear war.
To quote Jurassic park, life finds a way. It may look different but nothing humans can do will kill all life, maybe a lot, maybe all human life, but in another few million years something else will adapt and evolve and all that plastic and poison pumped into the planet will be gone.
I’m not a climate change change denier but I can say this weather is normal for February.
I am an odd mix of contrarian and geek so im gonna ignore the social convention of sticking to your qualifiers and comment regardless,lol. Have human industries had and continue to have an effect on the weather and climate? Sure OfC they impact it. Overall though will it end all life on the planet? Nah, we have had 20 degree swings before in either direction.
Sure it would wreck island nations and coastal communities, thats not new either. We have to adapt, pursue newer technologies as they become viable..AS LONG AS THEY ARE NOT AS DESTRUCTIVE AS THE ONES THEY REPLACE! ( sorry pet peeve there ).. and then eventually get off the planet if we are serious about REALLY saving it.
Not a climate change denier, but I can tell you EV cars being built account for as much pollution to be made as driving a V8 100k miles. Battery tech is still 25 years from being clean enough to make the switch. So all the smug assholes in their Teslas and Rivians can preach all they want, but they are as bad as the guy buying a Ram 3500 gas powered to commute in. Want real change, target gross amounts of gases released including consumer goods, ships, planes, trains, busses, factories worldwide and power generation world wide. Otherwise shut the fuck up and quit stirring the pot.
My wife reminded me the other day that every February since we moved here I go through my mild stretch of weather meltdown, cry winter is over, then get dumped on in March. Climate is def changing, but its going to take some time to get from where we are now to hiking and mountain biking in March, like my toddler nephews probably won't need to teach their children how to ski, Stowe won't cease to be a ski resort in my lifetime.
Yea no, EV'S from battery to finish line 2400/2800KG of Co2 equivalent where as Gasoline is 12,549KG of Co2 Equivalent, and on top of that, these batteries are recycled.
From Start of Manufacturing, Conventional Cars still produce more emissions
Stop spreading misinformation.
A gas cars lifetime GHG is 350gram/per mile where as in an EV'S entire lifetime its 140/Per Mile, including battery manufacturing.
EPA GHG Emissions for Gas and Electric
Most electronic vehicles run better, and perform better in pretty much every way.
Also, you're not accounting for all of the other stuff required to make a regular combustion engine run, and everything else that is constantly needed to be produced for them, including an insane amount of oil.
The transportation of unrefined oil, to refined oil, to back into a vehicle, to delivery, to the oil in your car, to the gasoline in your car etc.
Facts over feelings.
FACT: Electric vehicles typically have a smaller carbon footprint than gasoline cars, even when accounting for the electricity used for charging.
FACT**: The greenhouse gas emissions associated with an electric vehicle over its lifetime are typically lower than those from an average gasoline-powered vehicle, even when accounting for manufacturing.**
Electric vehicles (EVs) have no tailpipe emissions. Generating the electricity used to charge EVs, however, may create carbon pollution. The amount varies widely based on how local power is generated, e.g., using coal or natural gas, which emit carbon pollution, versus renewable resources like wind or solar, which do not. Even accounting for these electricity emissions, research shows that an EV is typically responsible for lower levels of greenhouse gases (GHGs) than an average new gasoline car.
"Otherwise, shut the fuck up and quit stirring the pot" as you say.
Why spout bullshit you pulled out of your ass?
Historical documentation of the term shows that "Indian summer" most likely refers to a period of warm and hazy fall weather when certain First Nations peoples liked to hunt, and is not related to the pejorative term "indian giver." But yes, it has absolutely nothing to do with warm weather in the depths of winter.
So mining the raw materials has zero impact to the net CO2 ? Because everything to keep a V8 on the road is all tallied into running a V8 for 100000 miles, calculating what batteries put off once created is great and all, but that's not a true measure. Also not to mention the batteries on a Prius are recycled as they used whole material vs plates material. Plating zinc with a tiny bit of cobalt for a lithium battery is what's happening now, when exactly are people gonna recycle for trace amounts of materials? Like we can't even get people on board with recycling bottles and cans that have a deposit on them here in VT never mind the rest of the country that largely does zero recycling.
Were you born stupid, or did you have to work at it? Why try and spout bullshit you don't understand?
Thousands of thousands of PhD holding climate scientists and regular scientists world wide are wrong, and you are right. /S
My god why do people who don't understand what they are talking about try and join the conversation to change peoples minds.
Oh that answers it, you're on that side of the political spectrum so you have been totally brainwashed.
You literally ignored the message that stated that it included ALL the manufacturing from start to finish, including transportation.
It's also really bad for lake Champlain and the surrounding watershed. Warmer temps and less rain contribute greatly to algae blooms. Combined with phosphorus runoff. Sad because the lake is one of our greatest natural areas.
Yo totally agree with you about targeting other emissions from consumer goods (HUGE contributor to emissions), plains, trains, etc. BUT you're wrong about the EV thing - this has been proven time and time again, they are much cleaner from cradle to grave than something like a ram 3500, literally no contest. You're talking an enormous lifetime of tailpipe emissions, combined with all fossil fuels required for manufacturing, combined with the process of getting and refining crude oil, combined with shipping all of that.
When people comment believing they are most intelligent, but spell incorrectly. 🙄
Sure it does.
Climate change isn't up for debate you brainlet, it's not a theory, its scientific fact at this point.
Why the fuck do you believe this is a political issues? Most of these scientists aren't involved in politics, they are just doing what they love to do, why do you think climate scientists have some of the highest rates of suicide? BECAUSE PEOPLE WONT LISTEN, they don't do it for the money, they don't do it for politics, and absolutely not for peer pressure, the data set is completely available for anyone to look at, and it's not some sort of backdoor slut that is hidden away, all of the actual studies, graphs, information, is free and available for anyone to look at.
Almost all scientists worth their salt, who aren't contrarians, are going to be looking at the facts OBJECTIVLY. It isn't just about warmer or colder weather, that shows you don't understand it at all, we are already in a ton of feedback loops caused by climate change, including all the methane gas that was frozen in the permafrost being released, the mass die offs of species in Alaska and the Siberian wilds, the wildfires that are caused by it being too dry, because the water cycle has been disrupted ((not because of gender reveal parties other than that one time)) The icecaps basically being gone, Mount Washingtons peak reaching a temperature COLDER THAN ANTARTICA, Crab population dropping by 90% because the ocean isn't cold enough for their exoskeleton to harden,
The only people who do it for the politics are places with big money, like exxon which knew for 40 year the climate scientists were right, and PAID MONEY to make climate "Denying" scientists, which is a fact at this point, and they are in court for it.
Acting like their is some kind of worldwide conspiracy to push climate change is very American.
Atmospheric Dioxide Never Went Above this line till 1950 ((accounting for millions of years, for all you people who say we don't have the data, it's one of the things we do in Antarctica is mining ice cores to evaluate the air and other conditions of the planet))
So yeah, here's your data.
lol what does this have to do with anything
Wow. That's some crazy nonsense. 🥴 Time to loosen the tinfoil hat and retweak the antennas.
Pretty simple. The “bingo” means that the previous post was spot on.
The question to the OP was simple.
Sorry to confuse you.
I'm not confused about the "bingo", I'm confused about the question. Why ask it? Where did it come from? What does it have to do with anything OP said?
You’re close, but the batteries are generally NOT recycled. Not yet anyway. It isn’t economically viable and we need a process to make it so.
Umm...I don't think that many people deny the fact that climate is changing I think the argument is over the cause.
It's not a RECORD low? That's the bar now?
What is your calculation/ what are your units? Is your chart suggesting that it's been colder the last year during those months than the 4 years prior?
Hi, the numbers are heating degree days from degreedays.net. Heating degree days are the number of degrees below the base temp, 65F in this case, times the length of time. They are meant to indicate how much heating is needed over a season or other time period. In a non-sense example, if it were 55F for 24 hours straight, that would be 10 heating degree days. My rows are monthly sums of those heating degree days. Since this year has fewer heating degree days, it shows that it's warmer than the past five years.
The National Weather Service also publishes heating degree days as part of their 30-year "climate normals." That's what weather people mean when they say it's warmer, cooler, rainier, windier, or whatever "than normal." They are comparing to the average for the past 3 complete decades. When they did the last update in 2021, they pointed out the many ways it showed warming: https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-and-1991-2020-us-climate-normals
Based on their post, I assume the OP is critical of those who question climate change.
While I don’t question climate change, I am also not naive to the fact that any and all actions taken by Vermont and its residents will do fuck all for preventing/reducing climate change.
So, when the OP is dismissive and calls people deniers it really solves nothing and further serves to divide people.
Personally, I’d rather spend state resources on educating our children than giving a rich people a discount on a Tesla or a heat pump while we tax the rural poor for trying to survive.
Got it, thanks for the explanation. Was not familiar with "heating degree days".
But OP never made the claim that actions taken by Vermonters will change anything. It's like me saying "gun violence is a problem" and someone else saying "well hey, tell me what defunding the police has done to help that". It's a straw man--OP has made argument A and you're turning around and saying, hey OP, argument B sucks.
OK. You're the only one talking about argument B here, though, so you're just kind of arguing with yourself.
Throwing your hands up in the air and going "Welp, people dump more shit in the water than I do" isn't going to do anything to solve the problem.
Never said they did. That’s why I asked the OP the question.
K. You keep on telling yourself that subsidizing the wealthy in Vermont with tax payer money is gonna solve the worlds climate issues.
I get it, Tesla's give you a hate boner.
But there are really good programs that work best for low income folks. https://www.mileagesmartvt.org/
The destabilized polar vortex is absolutely a consequence of climate change.
Those who question climate change are morons.
I agree! Do want the working poor and renters to keep subsidizing the green handouts to the landed gentry of Vermont?
I really like Teslas, but am sick of their design language.
The vast majority of green energy subsidies (EV rebates, solar panel kickbacks) have been used by the upper middle class and the wealthy in Vermont, particularly those who own a home.
Heck, entire solar panel fields were built as investments by rich out of staters who got a guaranteed high return via feed in tariffs.
The rural working class that has to rent a shitty, drafty 100 year old apartment and drive 35+minutes each way has been and currently is getting screwed by the green push from our legislators.
Vermont winters have always varied. It's been a very normal mix of that, with some steady winters of 12-15 storms, such as the past few, some with huge 2+ ft, and others that barely show up (2016, 2010).
It's always been all over the place. This is nothing new. I plow snow, and the storm numbers are usually 12-15, including this year.
I guess you’re probably wearing shorts today and tomorrow as well as next week. Don’t forget the sunscreen
Still not cold.
I guess all the people walking around in heavy jackets, hats and gloves missed the memo. I wear a hooded sweatshirt most of the time because I am in and out of my truck. So I am acclimated. Most people are cold in the 30’s and below.
I along with most Vermonters consider “cold” as zero degrees or below. This “cool”. You’re just a troll who had to come back for another bite after eleven days. What in the fuck is wrong you? Time to move on. Good day and go bother someone else that you disagree with.
You invited me back when it got .cold. It will be below zero tomorrow. Most Vermonters? I think most Vermonters would disagreed with your definition of cold. I’m out. Keep drinking the Kool Aid. ✌️
Keep collecting the downvotes.
I don’t give a shit about up or down votes. Because you do says more about you than me. Blocked fuck you too
Apprehensive-Block47 t1_j89r3ga wrote
They wont tell you that climate (as in "climate change") is to weather what personality is to mood. Or that climate is to weather what an entire sports season is to a single game. Or that climate is to weather what your closet is to today's outfit.
They wont tell you this, because they loving pointing outside and saying "SNOW? There would NEVER be SNOW if climate change was REAL!" in their uneducated, disproportionately over-confident voice.