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PiffityPoffity t1_ix20zf5 wrote

The completed assignment in the article is a run-on sentence with multiple errors. Maybe the students are in remedial English and don’t realize it.

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eyesRus t1_ix35zma wrote

For real. It looks like this kid does need to practice third grade English skills. And he’s probably not the only one.

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feedmewifi_ t1_ix44wmj wrote

yeah i would say the assignment is appropriate for that student’s ability level. the students quoted as saying they aren’t being challenged should be in honors/AP if that’s what they desire

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bittoxic00 t1_ix4ojy0 wrote

Ny state released a ranking of all nys high schools this month. One district had only 13% of students proficient in English and 18% in math. Blame it on remote learning but either way some kids are way behind

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Least-Cry-7317 t1_ix3wkuw wrote

They also kept jumping from Midwood to Murrow.

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PiffityPoffity t1_ix438r9 wrote

The Edward R. Murrow High School is located in Midwood, Brooklyn.

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Least-Cry-7317 t1_ix4dh41 wrote

Maybe if I didn’t go their I would have had a proper education in reading. When they wrote “the Midwood school” I thought they meant Midwood hs.

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tinoynk t1_ix1yu4q wrote

I knew I recognized the exterior, because it was the establishing shot for what was supposed to be JFK High in Seinfeld, when Jerry’s 2 hour assembly speech bumps fellow alum Rick James (“Superfreak!?”) while George abstains from sex and learns Portuguese.

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Sketcha_2000 t1_ix4m19c wrote

This is the only meaningful takeaway from this “article”

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Imaginary_Cow_6379 t1_ix231sq wrote

🙄 The NY Post really shouldn’t be allowed to be posted. They’re a Rupert Murdoch owned rightwing propaganda rag. Their reporters are also Fox correspondents and astroturfers for charter schools. Theres a reason they’re pushing the narrative about how terrible public schools are.

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Pool_Shark t1_ix819qp wrote

The problem is they are one of the few local news sources without a paywall. So it’s basically down to the Post and Gothamist

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Imaginary_Cow_6379 t1_ix8hrvd wrote

That is a fair enough point. It is annoying The Daily News has paywalls. We do have tons of local papers tho that could always use more support!

NYC in general:

Brooklyn:

Bronx:

Manhattan:

Queens:

Staten Island:

Long Island:

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Imaginary_Cow_6379 t1_ix8hqe6 wrote

That is a fair enough point. It is annoying The Daily News has paywalls. We do have tons of local papers tho that could always use more support!

NYC in general:

Brooklyn:

Bronx:

Manhattan:

Queens:

Staten Island:

Long Island:

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Rtn2NYC t1_ix4e89g wrote

I agree re the post but the article is easily able to be criticized. Banning the post just gives their platform no pushback. If people read this crap and bring it here, engagement and sharing critical analysis is really the best way to de-polarize our current climate and encourage people to seek alternative sources instead of taking this propaganda at face value.

ETA: lol downvote all you want but I find it ironic that this assignment the NYP is reporting on is scaffolding for The Scarlet Letter, which of course is the book on which Arthur Miller’s play The Crucible is based. That play, you likely remember, was a critical metaphor of and pushback against McCarthyism - the right wing attempt to uncover and silence an ideology (in that case, communism officially but which targeted any socialist or ordinary left wing advocates).

Free society means we don’t ban books or the press- full stop. Censorship is burying your head in the sand- lazy and does nothing to combat bad ideas, and leads to the pendulum swinging too far the other way until we are again on the receiving end.

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2nd_Ave_Delilah t1_ix23x1o wrote

And you're saying they're not? This is fabricated?

Critique the assertion, not the source.

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Plane-Bee-374 t1_ix2dmhq wrote

So, if these hacks had taken a rudimentary journalism class in high school they’d know that this was an exercise to teach the kids the 5Ws.

They use the three bears or another fairytale because everyone knows the stories and it’s a good example of who, what, where, why, when and how.

We did a fair bit of text analysis of famous stories (fairy tales, the moon landing, watergate) all through high school and college as a way to learn journalistic skills- as well as writing exercises.

Also, it’s perfectly fine to critique the source as a means to evaluate the credibility of the assertion especially in cases where there is a lack of evidence.

Edit typos

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mechadizzy t1_ix4uhko wrote

>So, if these hacks had taken a rudimentary journalism class in high school they’d know that this was an exercise to teach the kids the 5Ws

I learned the 5Ws in sixth grade by reading The Hobbit as assigned reading material. In a school that was zoned for the projects. What is happening to public schools that high schoolers are learning the 5Ws with childrens books?

0

Longjumping_Vast_797 t1_ix398qn wrote

The results speak for themselves. I actually still have my 2nd grade assignments in a box. This assignment, and the handwriting are 3rd grade level.

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Imaginary_Cow_6379 t1_ix249ie wrote

The source is paid to push this “viewpoint”. I have kids in the NYC school system and it’s disgusting how these hacks want to attack our schools because they want that charter school money.

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Infinite_Carpenter t1_ix359pz wrote

Charter schools are terrible in every way. From student outcomes, to tax payer cost, to impact on public schools. Charter schools offer few benefits and many detriments.

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IIAOPSW t1_ix3hy4i wrote

The thing about "critique the assertion not the source" is that "the cost of producing bullshit is much lower than the cost of debunking it." At some point, if you you have a particular source of assertions, and their assertions repeatedly turn out to be bullshit, its fair to stop giving the benefit of the doubt that their next assertion might not be bullshit.

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WickhamAkimbo t1_ix3rwkk wrote

They also report accurately on a number of important stories that other outlets in the city ignore because they reflect poorly on the Democratic party that controls the state. Recently, that includes stories about crime in the city.

Since these stories are ignored by more reputable outlets, demands to remove the Post generally just look like attempts to censor information that is unflattering to your political leanings.

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Rtn2NYC t1_ix4eze4 wrote

This issue is not being ignored, reading methodology is a hot topic in academia and has been covered by multiple reputable papers of record across the country. They’re actually pretty late to the game on this one and no mention of how methodologies and textbooks are often dictated by big business or conservative ideology (TX is a big influencer of textbooks).

I read the Post too, but it’s important to actively google the topic and read other sources, especially when an article evokes anger and is very light on context, background analysis and balanced perspective.

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justan0therhumanbean t1_ix2o441 wrote

Pardon my French:

Fuck the post. Fuck the shill pretending to be a journalist who wrote this story. This is class war; Fuck these fucking fucks.

Edit: I know dozens of successful adults who graduated from Murrow. I also know several people who teach there, one of whom teaches English and is among the best humans I know. To reiterate: fuck the post.

Edit #2: downvoted by shills who probably didn’t even grow up in the city. Fuck you too ;)

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jessicat7474 t1_ix3m8em wrote

Teacher here. Indeed this is scaffolding. What many civilians don’t get is that sometimes we as teachers give rudimentary assignments to review skills kids SHOULD know already. Then we apply those skills to more challenging assignments. Believe it or not we’re not that far into the school year, so I will assume that the teacher was indeed reviewing skills in a simplistic way so that students felt empowered to complete tougher assignments. There’s no date, so I’m going to go with that.

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fppencollector OP t1_ix3n8wi wrote

I have some honest questions. Please indulge my curiosity.

It's late November and these are high school students. How nuch time should review take during the school year?

The article mentioned the student's current experience of only being assigned chapters instead of entire novels. Why is that the norm?

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PuzzleheadedWalrus71 t1_ix3ur0s wrote

You'd be surprised how many parents get upset about their children feeling stress over having to read whole books.

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fppencollector OP t1_ix3v08t wrote

My oldest reads a novel a month in English class. I thought that was normal for high school.

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PuzzleheadedWalrus71 t1_ix3xa4f wrote

There are parents who would push back on that requirement.

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WVOQuineMegaFan t1_ix4anoh wrote

I sure would, unless those novels are closer to novellas.

I don't even know why we spend so much time teaching "English" in the first place when those same skills could be built in a history class

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cavalryyy t1_ix4bc6v wrote

Because assessing the deeper meaning of media is valuable in more contexts than just historical analysis?

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thefirstnightatbed t1_ix4ews7 wrote

You don’t really need full length novels to do that, though. Most of my readings in university English classes were short stories.

I do agree with you on English classes being important.

0

cavalryyy t1_ix4fqrz wrote

You don’t need full length novels, but certainly some of the best works of all time are novels and there is intrinsic value to having read them. But yeah, I have many gripes with the American school system, and definitely English classes. But glad we’re on the same page that they’re important!

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WVOQuineMegaFan t1_ix4cmyx wrote

I don't believe that's a skill which is all that distinct from general literacy and comprehension, especially given the way English is taught in K-12. There's really very little doubt in my mind that people learn more from reading 1984 than reading about the Soviet Union and analyzing primary source documents

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cavalryyy t1_ix4dz2j wrote

> I don't believe that's a skill which is all that distinct from general literacy and comprehension, especially given the way English is taught in K-12.

I’m not really sure what you mean by this. You don’t learn to understand themes and motifs, separate authors intent from readers interpretation, etc through “general literacy and comprehension”. Understanding what’s being said and understanding what’s meant are different skills

>There's really very little doubt in my mind that people learn more from reading 1984 than reading about the Soviet Union and analyzing primary source documents

I’m not sure if you meant to say this but I agree with this lol. People do, indeed, learn more (about certain things) from reading 1985 than about the Soviet Union

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WVOQuineMegaFan t1_ix4ga3r wrote

> themes and motifs

There are absolutely themes in historical analysis. It's true you don't learn about literary motifs, but that doesn't seem like a topic that justifies English taking up more time in school than any other subject. Also, I don't remember much time being spent on "motifs" in English classes anyway.

> separate authors intent from readers interpretation

Of course you learn about this in a history or sociology class, both explicitly in textbooks and implicitly when analyzing primary source documents, which are almost never unbiased or entirely accurate.

​

Another thing: if English really is about the deeper meaning of media it should mostly ditch novels and focus on movies, television, news articles, and social media. Most people only read novels occasionally and *never* read poetry. The only reason they teach literary fiction is because literary fiction is generally considered to have more aesthetic value than great television or TikTok, which I personally agree with but also think is basically irrelevant.

−2

NotAHoneypot t1_ix8ljte wrote

"Most people only read novels occasionally and never read poetry."

Okay, if you say so then this must be true 😅. Weirdly enough though, Audible is incredibly popular. And even stranger, Lewis Carroll and Homer are considered highly rated and very popular authors on it. Both are poetry-centric.

And before you say anything about audiobooks, bear in mind Stephen King - a cherished wordsmith who married a poet, Tabitha King - has long since been an emphatic supporter of how they can help improve literacy.

Kind of a bummer if you don't like poetry - different stroke for different folks, but to say people never read it seems far more opinion than fact 🤡

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Pera_Espinosa t1_ix4bhl4 wrote

Why is this so downvoted ?

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mechadizzy t1_ix4snxp wrote

People on this subreddit are hyper-sensitive to anyone saying anything bad about the state of american public institutions.

Just ignore the numbers next to people's posts. They don't always align with reality, and anonymity creates fuckwads out of people.

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RChickenMan t1_ix51gf3 wrote

Because it's trying to draw conclusions by comparing one anecdote to another anecdote. The scaffolded review assignment shown in the article is one data point. This person's kid's class is another data point. Two data points, in two completely different contexts, amongst the millions of assignments being completed in thousands of classrooms throughout the city. It's an incredibly misleading and useless way to try to understand an issue as complex and nuanced as education.

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Sketcha_2000 t1_ix4nr1c wrote

Review of basic skills can be woven into lessons throughout the entire school year. Just because they were doing this one lesson on a day in November doesn’t mean that’s what they’re doing all day, every day. Students who are far behind need regular exposure to the basics, especially at this age when the ability to absorb things like a sponge is waning.

As far as your second question goes, I could be wrong but I read it as they were being assigned extremely abridged summaries of classic novels. This may or may not be appropriate; with zero context, we have no idea. They could have been assigned to a class of students with disabilities (or again, students who are severely behind in reading level) and in which case, would be a good way of exposing those students to the classics without expecting them to read text they physically can’t. I don’t think this is the norm. This is one situation, and again, we have zero context.

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jessicat7474 t1_ix5q80c wrote

Sometimes we assign portions of books if the focus is on a specific area of content. We review throughout the year. So for instance, I give my students a model paragraph but instead of their first review being of the content in the paragraph, I make it about something silly. Teachers are constantly trying to engage kids in learning in new ways. I’ll tell you, I teach high schoolers and they give zero f’s a lot of the time. I have a high level class and then a lot of kids reading at elementary school level in the same class. So it’s really tough to deem an assignment too basic. I’m trying to get around that with differentiation but it’s a beast.

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fppencollector OP t1_ix61a4o wrote

Thank you for the perspective. That would make for a tough balancing act with such a wide range of abilities in the same classroom.

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thisisntmineIfoundit t1_ix4bhag wrote

But...Goldilocks? And what does it say about our public school system that 11th graders need "review" on answering who, what, where, when, why? The only way I was going to excuse this assignment was if the student was in special needs and didn't know it. But here you are defending it, along with the school's principal. Scary.

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[deleted] t1_ix4uju2 wrote

[deleted]

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thisisntmineIfoundit t1_ix4vtp1 wrote

A) 1000% agreed on the parents

B) Why aren't these kids held back?

C) Learning to read started in Kindergarten for me and I knew how to sound out any grade appropriate word by 1st/2nd grade so I guess I'm wondering what's going on in those classrooms to get a kid like this in grade 11.

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DryGumby t1_ix5a5bu wrote

They can work on it all year in kindergarten, or at least their classmates can while they're absent or have some other issue, not be able to do it and then get left back. Then do the same next year and they're older and get pushed to the next grade. 3 years later they can't read and nothing in class makes sense. At some point someone has to go back to their level of understanding if they want to make any progress.

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Dangerous-End-2725 t1_ix5u955 wrote

It’s more about community than just the parents. Everyone has to do their part. People can have shitty parents and an amazing community center or after school. Some parents aren’t assholes, they’re parents stuck working overtime with no time to force their kid to do homework or help them read. A parent struggling to speak English and their kid is their translator but they’re expected to help their kid read??? You’d be surprised about how many kids drop out because they’re helping their family at home. All of these things have to be considered when thinking about “proper” education. Also holding back kids back costs money and we alll know school districts don’t wanna pay!

0

jessicat7474 t1_ix5qyar wrote

I replied this above but I think it also stands here:

Sometimes we assign portions of books if the focus is on a specific area of content. We review throughout the year. So for instance, I give my students a model paragraph but instead of their first review being of the content in the paragraph, I make it about something silly. Teachers are constantly trying to engage kids in learning in new ways. I’ll tell you, I teach high schoolers and they give zero f’s a lot of the time. I have a high level class and then a lot of kids reading at elementary school level in the same class. So it’s really tough to deem an assignment too basic. I’m trying to get around that with differentiation but it’s a beast.

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Dangerous-End-2725 t1_ix5toq7 wrote

You’d be surprised how many adults, people in college need to review a who what where when and why. They are questions we use with both easy and complex text. Literally was in college reminding other students to answer those questions when reviewing texts for research. The exercise may have been a bit basic but tbh if everyone approached text with the basic questions like this, folks may be better readers.

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elizabeth-cooper t1_ix21bbk wrote

>Only 8% of students are deemed English language learners, but about 47% of incoming eighth-graders did not meet state standards in English language arts in 2019-20, the latest year available.

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BobbyBlueBlandz t1_ix41l8g wrote

It gets worse every year. That's sad

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mechadizzy t1_ix4s9ve wrote

Keep those stats in mind whenever people claim things are or will get better in NYC and the broader US.

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thisisntmineIfoundit t1_ix4ahyi wrote

Are the nearly 1/10 kids who need to learn English in the general classroom needing extra help or are they all taught together, separately?

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robrklyn t1_ix2oxs7 wrote

This is a laughably stupid article.

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B1orpgoo t1_ix3rgse wrote

I go to Murrow. The teacher who was on the assignment was a special education teacher.

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fppencollector OP t1_ix3rt8q wrote

Thank you for replying and for the information. That is certainly salient and should have been included in the article, if it was published at all.

EDIT: Just reread the article, it states that this was the curriculum for a general education class.

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thisisntmineIfoundit t1_ix4c3jh wrote

Weird that the principal did not say that in their statement defending it? Frankly that was my first thought because this is the Post, but yeah the principals statement was essentially "all normal, nothing to see here!"

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lickedTators t1_ix5m8c3 wrote

I prefer that the principal doesn't call out students being in Special Ed.

For a shitty article about nothing there's no reason to publicize student details, even by indirectly implying.

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Traditional_Way1052 t1_ix4heaa wrote

Isn't Pingthing English, I don't remember McGill from when I went maybe they weren't there or I didn't have them.

Separately I know it's ICT Class because there's two teachers listed. J/w if I'm misremembering Pingthing bc I wasn't in sped at any point.

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B1orpgoo t1_ix4l042 wrote

I looked both up in the Murrow staff directory. Pengthieng is an English teacher, McGill is a sped teacher.

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Rtn2NYC t1_ix3va6e wrote

TLDR the post article is lazy trash but this is an actual problem being considered by serious people and many teachers have issue with our curriculum.

There is a serious problem with how reading is taught most places in the US. When most of us learned, we learned phonics - learning what sounds the letters made and how to blend them together to “sound out” a word. They literally don’t do that anymore.

A while back there was a push by grifters to change to something called “balanced literacy” which is complete garbage. It involves learning “sight words” and literally guessing at words by context. This method encourages students not be challenged but to be assigned to “read on grade level” with the theory that giving students challenging material will discourage them from reading. This works while books are simple and illustrated but every study shows student reading progress largely cratering after grade 3.

There have been articles about this change lately in many reputable (ahem- think NYT, not NYP) papers challenging this new pedagogy because it has absolutely DESTROYED kids’ ability to read. It’s now widely been discredited and there is a push to fully eliminate its use, but the cities are the most resistant to return to “traditional” methods. In TN, where it was scrapped a few years ago and replaced by phonics and other older reading methods, scores have improved dramatically over any other area, which continue to see declines.

Students can’t write because they are taught that spelling, punctuation and grammar are (I am not making this up) if not outright racist, systemically unfair to POC due to either large amounts of ESL or AAVE. Thus their work isn’t marked for this (these mistakes aren’t corrected and certainly cost no points from the grade).

This is, I think, the real reason for the push to eliminate standardized testing, from middle school to LSATS. Kids in high school who were subject to this now can’t read and the decision makers and for profit education materials company lobbyists are covering their asses on this.

There is a serious problem with high level union and administrators falling for this type of stuff to justify their inflated salaries and own ego. More power needs to be given to teachers to run their classrooms and engage children without new, difficult and untested methods.

I think teaching is a very noble profession and it is high time we start letting teachers have serious and meaningful input on methodology (for all subjects but especially early learning) and policy (including disciplinary) without then having to worry about “wrongspeak” or we will continue to use them as a human shield while big business and unelected bureaucrats line their pockets at the expense of children.

Source: have daughter, realized while the pandemic why she couldn’t read and taught her phonics, now she attends Catholic school after a lottery fiasco and is a total bookworm whose writing, spelling, vocabulary and grammar are dramatically improved.

I could say “not my problem” but… Education IS the great equalizer and there is a reason a public education is a right. I can afford private school but many can’t. Failure to change course on this will result in more kids being unprepared for college or even struggling in non-degree requiring occupations. Is is a national emergency IMO and we should be sounding the alarm as loudly as possible that we are setting kids- especially poor and ESL kids- up for failure.

So, I volunteer at a family literacy clinic where families, often immigrants whose parents’ English reading skills are rudimentary, come for reading and math help. A group works with parents and another with kids (5-13, with most around 10) on reading and math skills. Many of us (some, frustrated teachers) are elder millennials or young GenX and teach using phonics. The kids make a ton of progress and parents have thanked us for teaching them how to sound things out because halfway through elementary school their kids had not been taught this.

I lean a bit more conservative than this sub (I’m center-left, so my extended suburban family thinks I’m a card carrying full communist) but in reality I’m just a parent who did very well largely because of my love of reading, and wants my and all kids in the city to have the same advantage. The NYP is right here for the wrong reason- no context, no background- utter laziness. But if you are interested check out Karen Vaites on twitter who is a literacy advocate here in NY who is pushing for change from within the left.

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Rottimer t1_ix54p1a wrote

omfg, please speak to some teachers.

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Rtn2NYC t1_ixcuqbh wrote

Great rebuttal. Other teachers in this thread have also pointed to years of balanced literacy as the culprit

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Imaginary_Cow_6379 t1_ix453lj wrote

Karen Vaites is an idiot. Shes big in the Keep Schools Open no matter what movement and is anti-masks and anti-vax.

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Rtn2NYC t1_ix4ijit wrote

Regarding open schools, she advocated for the same policies recommended by the WHO and in Europe and Asia (not to mention most of the US outside of big cities, and private schools everywhere). Big city schools, specifically here in NYC, were absolutely closed for too long and even Dems, including Hochul, have stated it was a mistake. She also was more measured and far less obnoxious than the majority of open schools crowd. She’s not anti-vax.

I cited her as a source as a literary advocate, and she is only one source off the top of my head. The move away from Balanced Literacy (originally implemented under GWB, if I recall correctly) is a National and non-partisan effort. So even if she had “expert syndrome” on COVID dangers in school, she is not wrong on her actual expertise and there are plenty of corroborating studies and other advocates and organizations that support the return to phonics based early reading instruction.

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Imaginary_Cow_6379 t1_ix55guh wrote

Shes a big in the local Keep Schools Open movement https://twitter.com/karenvaites/status/1512126988378681346

Including retweeting/talking to the big think-tank celebrity drs

https://twitter.com/karenvaites/status/1581840139445469187

https://twitter.com/karenvaites/status/1581840141660082176

Shes not explicitly “anti-vax” but she routinely tweets anti-vax disinfo

https://twitter.com/karenvaites/status/1544661572076900352

https://twitter.com/karenvaites/status/1544775977380839435

https://twitter.com/karenvaites/status/1537892799902715904

Shes a huge supporter of The Post especially with fellow Keep Schools Open supporter/charter school think-tank employee Karol Markowicz

https://twitter.com/karenvaites/status/1315704965894209538

https://twitter.com/karenvaites/status/1481114632387547140

https://twitter.com/karenvaites/status/1467648657151467524

The local anti-mask/vax mom movement is funded by places like Fox and dark money astroturf groups like Moms for Liberty and Independent Womens Forum. Karen is a huge supporter of them and a big voice against public schools in favor of charter schools.

−1

Rtn2NYC t1_ixcunoh wrote

None of that has anything to do with literacy advocacy and while most of those grifters have moved onto to vile anti-trans and crt, she’s pivoted right back to literacy. I honestly think she was critical of school closures and got stuck aligning with people she’d ordinarily not because the issue was so polarized.

1

IronManFolgore t1_ix5iwm1 wrote

>Students can’t write because they are taught that spelling, punctuation and grammar are (I am not making this up) if not outright racist, systemically unfair to POC due to either large amounts of ESL or AAVE.

crazy, who is asking for this? I'm an immigrant so I was in ESL classes. I grew up surrounded by kids that were all 1st or 2nd gen immigrants. My elementary, middle, and high school were 95% minority and low income but we still learned phonics.

When did this shift start in NYC? I started learning English about 20 years ago.

1

Rtn2NYC t1_ixknpdn wrote

Don’t know. Just what my daughter told me when I asked her why she was allowed to submit assignments in all lower case letters with no marks off for spelling, grammar or punctuation

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fppencollector OP t1_ix3vs3z wrote

Thank you.

Is Karen Vaites on any other platform besides Twitter?

−2

Rtn2NYC t1_ix4ca4x wrote

To expand on the above, and as noted by a professional educator in the comments (someone with likely a masters degree and years of experience), children’s stories are often used as scaffolding, especially when teaching kids critical thinking and bias. Why? Because most kids know them well and don’t by nature critically examine them, and are generally issue-neutral/ non-controversial on their face (as opposed to jumping into a long form article on SCOTUS or Breonna Taylor).

Who what when where and why are obvious at first but dig deeper. Who is writing the story? The Bear Post or the Bear Villiage Times? Why is a child breaking into Bear houses? Is it an isolated incident or part of a larger trend? If a study was done, who funded it- Bear Rights Org or Big Bear Security Co.? Is she a colonizer, barging into their habitat, utilizing what suits her and discarding the rest, pushing them further to Bear Reservation? Or are the bears developers who ate her mom, took her home, renovated it, jacked up the price and she’s reclaiming it as protest? Is she acting alone or is this some grassroots (or astroturfed) larger movement? Is it a boarding house, and Baby Bear’s things are “just right”- is this class solidarity, do she and baby Bear have common goals/class struggles against landlords despite their differences? Is the story pushing an agenda and could it be made more neutral, or could details be added or removed to bias the reader to one side or the other?

The assignment worksheet shown clearly demonstrates the class discussion was about a civil rights case in Chicago and the story was designed to teach structure.

EDIT: THAT SAID, I agree the assignment is more like 6th grade level, tops, and multiple students reported being unchallenged and bored, and other NYC teachers were critical. To my point in the earlier comment, the administration’s comment is dismissive and demonstrates an unwillingness (or inability) to justify what’s happening here.

This I think demonstrates a failure due to removal of tracking and lack of proper early reading instructions and disinclination to continually use increasingly challenging materials. The Scarlet Letter is not that challenging of a text and reading a summary instead of the book is likely due to students not reading at grade level and the school essentially teaching cliff’s notes, which is indeed problematic. Though elsewhere ITT it notes this might have been a special education section of a general class - wasn’t noted by the admin but wouldn’t put it past the NYP to omit that detail.

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Traditional_Way1052 t1_ix4h6uw wrote

Thank you. You explained it so well. Exactly. The whole point is to practice on something super easy before moving on to increasingly more complex tasks. Indeed this was probably a do now or starter and likely took a few minutes before they moved into something more complex.

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Rtn2NYC t1_ix4jccm wrote

I read the Post to keep an eye on what narrative is being pushed. Sometimes they do have a salient point or two but I feel like it’s a broken clock situation and even then, most often those points are already being addressed and reported on elsewhere.

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Rtn2NYC t1_ix3wvv6 wrote

You’re welcome. This is an area that is very important to me. You can check out her work at her site.

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Rottimer t1_ix4209z wrote

Oh, for fuck’s sake. I took a required writing course at an Ivy League college and I chose children’s literature. Guess what kind of books we read and wrote about in one of the top colleges on earth?

Edit: The point is, the material, out of context, is not enough to judge what a teacher or professor is looking for from the students.

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fppencollector OP t1_ix427ww wrote

What was the reading level of the children's books you chose and what was the level of your analysis?

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Sketcha_2000 t1_ix4g52k wrote

That parent (who does not have children at Murrow) who can’t believe that 11th graders might be reading on a third-grade level…she needs to spend some time in a school because there are plenty who need it.

The Post is pure public education-hating trash. They are attempting to write about scaffolding like anyone claimed it to be a magical cure-all. I implore these “journalists” to try substitute teaching for a week. For students who are way behind in reading level, progress is a slow process. There are many, many students who come into high school reading at primary grade levels or worse. Should we drop War and Peace in front of them and expect miracles? Or try to get them to read at a somewhat proficient level before they graduate so that they can be productive in society? This is what comes from years and years of not teaching basics in phonics and comprehension and teaching to the balanced literacy crap instead.

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RaisedByMonsters t1_ix4kw8u wrote

Aaaand these kids just went through like 2 years of learning through a glass box, so yea maybe it’s a good idea to check in on that stuff.

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Rtn2NYC t1_ix4ngo5 wrote

Well said- Could not agree more. The detrimental effects of eliminating phonics have been passed upward to elementary, high school and now even college educators to fix but until the root cause is admitted and methodology adjusted these educators are fighting an uphill battle. They deserve support, not criticism.

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Sketcha_2000 t1_ix4pmzq wrote

100 percent. I’m fortunate enough to have worked only in schools where admin actually care about what’s best for students and not what’s coming down from above. So I’ve been teaching phonics to kids who need it. I taught middle school for 10 years and you honestly wouldn’t believe the transformation in their reading ability and confidence when you actually teach them what they need to know. Granted I am a sped teacher so I have a little bit of wiggle room in what I’m allowed to teach, as I’m supposed to address IEP goals.

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Rtn2NYC t1_ix4sr16 wrote

Oh I totally believe it- I volunteer with a family literacy organization and have kids identify sounds and blend them to read words and they make progress pretty quickly, and the parents too are incredibly grateful as they also struggle with reading (the point of the group) and balanced literacy prevents them from helping at home and progressing together. I’m really grateful for NYC teachers- my daughter’s public school middle school teachers here were so excellent and so thank you and your colleagues. Hopefully this recent attention on the issue will right the ship and result in an improvement in experience for students and teachers.

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Sketcha_2000 t1_ix4t3wn wrote

So nice of you to say! So glad people see through the BS put out there by articles like this

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Rtn2NYC t1_ix4vtx4 wrote

It makes me mad they take actual issues and politicize them so badly. Makes it harder for nuanced discussion.

Enjoy the weekend and holiday!

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BiblioPhil t1_ix3q4s5 wrote

How convenient, the Post could use some third-grade lessons in journalism. Maybe their reporters could enroll.

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mikeyrox20 t1_ix4rk7j wrote

As a teacher in the doe, many schools are pushing literacy and many schools including mine have had had many new English language learning students. My school went from a 14% ELL student rate last year to 38% this year. This creates a need for teachers to start from the bottom and scaffold up.

Many non ELL students in my classes have complained about their ELA classes because they’re going over grammar and syntax; things they learned years ago but the ELL students haven’t learned it. Many teachers also differentiate, meaning that within one class you’ll have different levels of learners. Differentiating would be providing additional help or more appropriate work for students that haven’t scored well or that need the extra help.

edit: and while many times I disagree with this current approach of lowering standards instead of lifting (all) students up to meet and surpass standards I can see where their argument lies and I’m glad it’s being brought to light.

Edit 2: by taking a look at the worksheet in the article, the class is taught by two teachers meaning that it is an ICT class with half of the students being special Ed.

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ihatethesidebar t1_ix50sdu wrote

That’s some shit handwriting on that worksheet

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codernyc t1_ix1xdhd wrote

The next logical step after we’ve gotten rid of gifted and talented programs and standardized testing. Equity for all.

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MC-Sherm t1_ix3namb wrote

I went there my freshman year- my teachers were super tough on me -so much my mom thought I was slacking and sent me to military school

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Informal_Escape2546 t1_ix4z8do wrote

NYC teachers literally don’t give a fuck about their students and that’s coming from someone who’s from there…. Had my middle school teacher tell the whole class she didn’t believe in us and that we were all going to fail the state test 😭

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fppencollector OP t1_ix4zoq4 wrote

I'm sorry that happened to you, that is someone who should definitely not be allowed to teach. Hope things, are going well for you. Living well is the best revenge on naysayers.

I have been lucky to come across many wonderful and caring teachers as a public school student (decades ago) and parent.

2

stansvan t1_ix1yj7e wrote

DOE is a joke. That is why they are eliminating standards, accountability and saying they are doing it in the name of equity. All to distract us from their incompetence.

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robrklyn t1_ix2ocyk wrote

Please cite your sources that say the DOE is “eliminating standards.” Also, what school do you work at?

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IsayNigel t1_ix2p9ge wrote

Lmao citation desperately needed.

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stansvan t1_ix3gl56 wrote

Actually not just the DOE you can add the education oversight at the State level also. Such as http://www.nysed.gov/news/2021/state-education-department-proposes-changes-teacher-certification-requirements-reduce

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IsayNigel t1_ix4i27p wrote

Yea do you know why they’re doing this? Because they literally cannot get people to do the job because it pays so poorly, and they’re treated like garbage.

2

stansvan t1_ix4wmpo wrote

You tell me citation desperately needed and when provided indicate you already know about it because you already have an excuse as to why standards are being lowered. Basically circling back to my original claim on eliminating standards and accountability.

−1

IsayNigel t1_ix4xohs wrote

Chief this is a job, you have to pay people to do a job. If you pay them poorly and treat them like garbage, why would they work for you?

3

stansvan t1_ix3hagt wrote

NYC changed it so students were all opted out to take the standardized test and had to notify them if you want to take the test.

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stansvan t1_ix3hriw wrote

It has gotten so bad that they don't want to call tests a test because that can be too stressful for some kids. So they call them learning opportunities.

−1

[deleted] t1_ix213th wrote

[deleted]

6

Double-Ad4986 t1_ix24klf wrote

yes they did. the article literally states that only 8% of income students are ELL but nearly 50% do NOT meet state standards in ELA....

−3

squall571 t1_ix1y7z6 wrote

I’m so glad I got out in time, what a disaster the NYC education system has become.

−28

ButtermilkJesusPiece t1_ix3dch5 wrote

idk why you’re getting downvoted, as someone who works in it, you’re right. for a state that spends 23k per student, how tf is it in shambles the way it is… obv covid has a lot to do w students falling this behind, but where is all this money going?

−3

squall571 t1_ix4avv2 wrote

Because the article is from the post and they think it’s some right wing conspiracy theory even though this issue was raised by the students themselves.This is just a minor issue though, the DOE has more serious problems.

−3

Johnnadawearsglasses t1_ix1ykb5 wrote

>”This is what educators call ‘scaffolding,’” he tweeted. “You introduce a topic, have the students practice it on something easy, before you have them work with something complex.

You pretty much know a terrible teacher as soon as they use the word scaffolding in a parent teacher conference. Good grief. Speak English.

−60

frogvscrab t1_ix24o5i wrote

uhhh scaffolding is a pretty widely used term when talking about education lol. I am not sure what your problem with that is.

45

Johnnadawearsglasses t1_ix24yll wrote

It has no real purpose. All teaching is starting with simpler topics and building to more complex ones. It's one of those buzzwords like you see in corporatespeak that just grates on me. Not a serious issue obviously. More peevish.

−37

frogvscrab t1_ix27dl0 wrote

> starting with simpler topics and building to more complex ones.

This is technically what scaffolding is, but in reality its a much more specific and complex teaching strategy.

28

robrklyn t1_ix2osmj wrote

Actually, the term was introduce by developmental psychologist Jean Piaget who is widely studied in education. He was around from the early to late 1900s. So I guess it’s been a “buzz word” since the 50s?

20

Plane-Bee-374 t1_ix2e4hw wrote

Scaffold is an English word, you empty melon. Scaffolding as a concept is an apt and simple metaphor that any New Yorker would understand, because they’re all over town.

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femaiden t1_ix22pks wrote

Not an educator but the quoted summary of it seems reasonable. Doesn't work?

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IsayNigel t1_ix2pb37 wrote

That literally is English you absolute degenerate.

22

robrklyn t1_ix2ojeu wrote

Scaffolding is an extremely common term in education. It originated with Jean Piaget (give him a Goog if you are not familiar). Why would a teacher be “terrible” if they used that term?

17

[deleted] t1_ix4vi3s wrote

[deleted]

1

Johnnadawearsglasses t1_ix55bo7 wrote

Insults to strangers on the internet. This is a teachable moment for you. I hope you take it.

As a postscript, teachers need to be measured and patient. And certainly not quick to temper. Do better.

−1