Comments
Daily_the_Project21 t1_j8nosih wrote
>Pushing against these rights directly led to the toxic chemical spill in Ohio.
This isn't true and there's no evidence.
I know I'm going to be downvoted to oblivion, but if any of you can give me any evidence, I'm willing to be proven wrong.
Splime t1_j8o8b7h wrote
You're not wrong, but the unions have been pointing to a lot of problems in the railroad industry that may have led to this specific incident. Respecting union rights would be a half measure - really the issue is the major railroads are particularly awful at actually running a railroad (not just this incident, but the whole "precision scheduled railroading" implementation), and should probably be nationalized.
tubatackle t1_j8l1vdx wrote
Serious question, can't they just campaign for elected officials who will change things in their favor? Teacher strikes are hard on families. Wouldn't the healthier option be to rely on democratic means of change? Or fixing whatever is impeding democracy from working?
pelican_chorus t1_j8l297v wrote
Unions generally do campaign for elected officials. However, that's not a magic wand. The person might not get elected, and they are also not all-powerful.
The ability to strike is a rarely-used tool that is only done when the union feels they have no alternative. It isn't used willy-nilly, or they'd quickly lose all public support, and without public support they have nothing.
tubatackle t1_j8l794n wrote
Police unions have no public support and they do whatever they want.
BlaineTog t1_j8lbsqe wrote
They have had tremendous public support for decades. All that, "tough on crime," BS gives the police unions a ton of leverage.
420trashcan t1_j8mgvll wrote
Because our country worships cops.
6corsican6lily6 t1_j8lmdr9 wrote
Teacher strikes are hard on families? Do you know how hard teacher wages are on teachers? That was a very self centered take and you need to understand that teachers and schools are not your babysitters.
tubatackle t1_j8ncyki wrote
Whether or not teachers should be payed more (they should) isn't the point. The question is should public servants be able to withhold critical services as leverage for higher wages, I say no.
6corsican6lily6 t1_j8p6sa5 wrote
Jfc, you reek of entitlement
tubatackle t1_j8q6zvl wrote
Not really, imagine you are a single parent and school doesn't open. Your boss doesn't care about the strike so you need to find childcare on short notice or risk losing your income.
6corsican6lily6 t1_j8qdas2 wrote
You’re only proving my point - you see teachers as babysitters, and therefore, below you. Your problem isn’t with teachers, it’s with the lack of accessible and affordable child care in this country, and a misplaced sense of superiority. You’ve somehow convinced yourself that teachers are to blame for the inflexibility of your own working conditions. And that if they fight for their own equity and it causes you an inconvenience, well that’s just not fair to you because you have it tough too. Based on what you have described about your working conditions, you have a lot more in common with teachers struggles than you’re willing to come to terms with. Once you understand praxis, you’ll develop some class consciousness and understand why supporting teacher and other worker strikes benefits everyone.
420trashcan t1_j8mgud1 wrote
Striking is a fundamental, foundational part of Democracy and Republican government dating all the way back to the Pre-empire Roman Republic.
[deleted] t1_j8mmtpg wrote
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mattgm1995 t1_j8ju8n3 wrote
Sad to see our new governor, allegedly from the party that supports unions, saying she won’t support this. Do Better Gov Healy!!
LetsGoHome t1_j8k37vs wrote
Joe didn't back the unions either and now we have an ecological disaster in Ohio. I don't think there's any conception of Democrats supporting unions anymore.
spitfish t1_j8nchd0 wrote
The Trump administration loosened the restrictions on hazardous materials on railways. Biden didn't back the unions.
SainTheGoo t1_j8nz36p wrote
The ratchet effect.
hatersbelearners t1_j8k4vis wrote
Dems are just a different flavor of shit.
BlaineTog t1_j8lc3fb wrote
Dems aren't great, but they're still miles better that the GQP. It's the difference between vanilla ice cream with a shit-flavored swirl vs a cup of actual disease-laden shit. We can press the Dems to be better without, "both sides,"-ing our way into Fascism.
hero_ad_interim t1_j8nuybc wrote
I mean I'm not a fan of the republican party as a whole and their extreme social hottakes they have had, but just as a one off, I thought Baker was pretty good while we had him
hatersbelearners t1_j8lf04d wrote
Please tell me who shut down the rail strikes recently.
Clownsinmypantz t1_j8m4a1v wrote
please tell me whos fighting for child labor, child marriage, no free lunches, women's rights and healthcare, and openly admitted to being terrorists.
mullethunter111 t1_j8n6vb0 wrote
The Saudis?
Clownsinmypantz t1_j8nb86v wrote
nope, even saudis allow abortion.
somegridplayer t1_j8mcmwg wrote
Our governor? How about the supermajority legislature that could have passed this without the governor's support for years now? Do better voters!
mattgm1995 t1_j8mtqxb wrote
Every time I mention a democrat veto proof supermajority doing nothing I get downvoted by MA liberals who are too nervous to realize they can’t blame republicans in MA
ADarwinAward t1_j8k70tv wrote
Ah yes, our "pro-union" governor.
https://tenor.com/view/patrick-stewart-mild-shock-shocked-shock-mild-gif-5292523
Otherwise-Sky1292 t1_j8jl7y2 wrote
Can't understand why anybody who isn't rich would be anti-union. If you are anti-union, you're a tool for said rich people.
cveolisnt t1_j8jm2ok wrote
Conservatives are professionals at being tools of everything right through their fanatical religious beliefs
Hilarias_Glucose_Cup t1_j8ngggj wrote
This state is 100% run by Democrats. There is nothing stopping them from passing laws to allow teachers the right to strike.
charons-voyage t1_j8jnd4k wrote
I am not anti-union but I personally would never want to be part of a union. I’m capable of negotiating the terms of my employment without collective bargaining. My wife is in a union (higher Ed) and it’s such a headache to get shitty coworkers fired and ambitious coworkers promoted. F that.
420trashcan t1_j8mh10x wrote
"I'm not anti union I just repeat anti union memes and don't say anything positive."
charons-voyage t1_j8mk57j wrote
Form a Union if you want idc lol. I just personally wouldn’t want to be in one. Not sure why that’s such a big deal lol.
420trashcan t1_j8mn8yj wrote
Because together we bargain alone we beg.
charons-voyage t1_j8mp5du wrote
So what about all the non-Union employees out there lol? I’m not a beggar. I actually prefer being able to dictate my own compensation WITHOUT having to collectively bargain. That doesn’t mean I don’t support people who want to be part of a union.
SainTheGoo t1_j8nzpo6 wrote
You think you have the leverage against a huge company? It might not feel like begging, but it basically is. And even if you're high enough that it's not begging, have some care for the vast majority of non-union workers getting screwed.
charons-voyage t1_j8o3ru9 wrote
I personally have a ton of leverage in my line of work since it’s a niche are and I have a fairly unique skill set. If my company doesn’t meet my compensation demand I’ll just go to another. Again, this isn’t a knock on unions, they can be great for many workers especially non-skilled labor. But for me there is no benefit.
LetsGoHome t1_j8k33j7 wrote
I'm still catching up on all your laws after moving here last year and uh what the fuck? Your public employees can't strike? How can anyone consider this a blue state
belushi93 t1_j8k7f2o wrote
The state was started by puritans. There are a number of laws on the books that have been there for ages and that aren't exactly progressive. The state has come a long way, but in certain ways it still has a way to go.
https://www.chowdaheadz.com/blogs/news/why-does-massachusetts-have-blue-laws
spitfish t1_j8nd2qf wrote
In this case, it's less puritans & more corporate focused politicians.
Significant_Shake_71 t1_j8sqwd9 wrote
The real history of this state and New England itself, which isn’t taught in schools, would shock you to the core.
LetsGoHome t1_j8t9clb wrote
I just came from VT which started as a whites only cult - I promise I won't be too shocked lol.
SouthShoreSerenade t1_j8jyaj0 wrote
Woburn teachers went on strike and got what they wanted. Government morons played that game of chicken for a whole week, but the workers refused to yield. Beautiful.
To all bad school "leaders" and the unqualified unintelligent government monkeys who prop them up - we're coming for you.
Bearawesome t1_j8kafd9 wrote
I'm willing to bet that at least 2 more districts will go on strike between now and April. It started with Brookline, Teacher Unions realized that all the gov't will do is threaten them.
Look at Woburn whose mayor was an exceptional idiot and tried pulling some dumb shit. In the end they still got what they wanted...
Rinleigh t1_j8kd63l wrote
Districts have been low balling teachers for years - providing them with a 1-2% raise after dragging on negotiations for a few years. And all the teachers are working without a contract. I think other districts are seeing the success of striking and thinking it’s a risk worth taking. These districts better start negotiating in good faith to avoid strikes.
niknight_ml t1_j8ktzqt wrote
Yep. Right around the time of the 2008 recession, a handful of school committees got it in their head (on the advice of their legal counsel) that the fact that teacher strikes are illegal means that they could refuse to negotiate in good faith. It has since expanded to being a statewide issue.
[deleted] t1_j8kgsvo wrote
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BlindBeard t1_j8k5h0d wrote
All workers should have the right to strike. We should be flipping the table over for the fact that they don't.
SileAnimus t1_j8k2r8z wrote
If a worker can't strike, the worker is at best a serf, at worse a slave. All employees in any and every field ought to be able to strike.
Nobel6skull t1_j8knml5 wrote
You have no idea what serfdom was like.
SileAnimus t1_j8le6hv wrote
I have lived in Brasil in places where some people work under other families under a lifelong "contract". Do you actually want to argue that I don't know what serfdom is?
CosmicQuantum42 t1_j8lp7as wrote
Then you must see the difference between a job that can be quit at any time for any reason and some kind of indentured servitude “contract”.
SileAnimus t1_j8lz3hd wrote
Teachers and public employees are fundamental to the long term viability and smooth operation of any nation. By encouraging employees to quit, or outright stating that improving working conditions through striking is not acceptable, you are directly stating that we should actively ruin the quality of this nation within two generations just because... teachers might be able to make what they're worth. Those people working those classrooms are more important than nearly everything you have ever done in your life and actively improve the nation in a way you evidently cannot fundamentally understand.
If your life is so shallow you don't know how much of an affect a "job" can have on a community, in the short and long term, then you shouldn't be talking about something as the fundamental as teachers being allowed to strike for what they are worth.
And no, a job, especially those in the extreme low end of pay, such as teachers, aren't something that most people can just "quit at any time". That's not how personal finances and anything resembling common economic sense looks like.
bostondotcom OP t1_j8jcl2f wrote
From reporter Dialynn Dwyer:
An effort is underway in Massachusetts to legalize the right to strike for some public employees — including teachers.
The push to give educators and other unionized employees in the public sector — excluding public safety workers like police and fire — the right to go on strike began in the last session of the state Legislature. A new iteration of the proposal, “An Act uplifting families and securing the right to strike for certain public employees,” was filed last month as a companion bill in both the Senate and House. The legislation would allow unions to legally strike after six months of failed negotiations with their employers.
Twelve states give public school educators the right to strike, according to the Massachusetts Teachers Association, which has named the proposal in the Bay State one of its legislative priorities for 2023-2024.
The move comes as the start of the year saw teachers go on strike in Woburn for a week after working without a contract since the fall. Schools were closed in the city for five days as negotiations stretched on.
Because the strike was illegal, the union was subject to thousands of dollars in fines. Ultimately, the union accumulated up to $85,000 in fines from the state; it also agreed to pay $225,000 in damages to the city over four years and $20,000 to local charities, the Boston Herald reports.
The union has reached out to the community for help in the face of those costs, and so far, families and businesses in the city have responded, with more than $50,000 pouring in to the GoFundMe fundraiser started for the educators. The Woburn Teachers Association has said the encouragement received from parents and other members of the community through their strike kept them “strong and affirmed that [they] were doing the right thing.”
Yet, there remains debate in Massachusetts about whether teachers and other unionized public sector employees should legally have the right to strike. Supporters of the proposal say the measure is needed to level the playing field at the bargaining table, while opponents argue it is a bullying tactic that will only hurt students and families.
Read more about the stances behind those who support and oppose the effort to legalize the right to strike for teachers: https://www.boston.com/news/politics/2023/02/14/teachers-public-employees-right-to-strike-legislation/
DBLJ33 t1_j8kei7p wrote
Good. Let the police, fire, and highway departments that are also working without a contract strike.
somegridplayer t1_j8mcu3h wrote
We can do away with qualified immunity first, then police can come to the table.
Rindan t1_j8m9982 wrote
Right, because police unions need more power. We still don't have them all wearing a camera and work on the " trust me bro" method of self policing.
flamethrower2 t1_j8nhyiw wrote
They strike anyway and prosecutors don't investigate and charge those illegal strikes. We should just give them the right to strike. It's just matching the law with reality. A short waiting or negotiation period might be appropriate so strikebreakers could be hired, since those services are essential.
Physical_Magazine_33 t1_j8l7ydn wrote
This is a fine example of how governments cannot GIVE rights, they can only choose to honor or subvert the rights you already have for just being a person.
[deleted] t1_j8n7r83 wrote
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chavery17 t1_j8nnoit wrote
To bad the governor doesn’t support it. Should of never voted her in
JaylenBrownAllStar t1_j8p32iy wrote
Like the other guy would have supported it also
BovaDesnuts t1_j8n0tvb wrote
It's all fun and games until the prison guards strike
V9luv t1_j8n82zz wrote
Public workers should have never been given collective bargaining rights. This is something even FDR agreed on and it’s probably a big reason private sector unions didn’t look as appealing. When you go on strike every 3 years looking for a 20% increase it tends to leave a sour taste in people’s mouths. It would be one thing if they had some form of accountability but they don’t. Bad teachers, cops, firefighters all get to keep their jobs and their performance is not measured.
closerocks t1_j8kk2fk wrote
Unpopular opinion: the teacher should not have gone on strike.
They should instead have used that same time to teach students about the labor movement, the importance of striking as a way of maintaining a balance of power in the employee/employer relationship. They also should've taught the students about the abuse of power used to suppress the voice of the people.
Yeah, the teachers would been teaching. Just not the lessons the powers that be wanted taught.
niknight_ml t1_j8kpooz wrote
Doing as you suggest will 100% get that teacher fired for cause.
joyosects t1_j8l9f9q wrote
What better way to teach a concept than through example?
somegridplayer t1_j8mcwum wrote
All most kids take away from it is a free vacation.
-source my school went on strike a billion years ago. Not a single kid gave a shit.
pillbinge t1_j8lc17e wrote
So they should have gone to school anyway, but instead of teaching their curricula, they should have taught something else? That's almost worse, FYI. And it wouldn't work unless everyone did it. I know it seems odd, but going on strike was the better thing to do.
ShawshankExemption t1_j8klwgr wrote
I’ll get downloaded to all hell for this, but teachers striking during the school year causes incredible educational disruption and harm to students, not to mention their families. It can directly create unsafe environments for children and our communities.
If government is going to change the law to permit teachers to strike, it should only be during the summer or other, ‘non-teaching’ working days (e.g. professional development).
Most importantly, the government should change the laws to force school districts and local governments to come to the table during negotiations in good faith. The legislature should outline what ‘good faith’ negotiations entail, and put in place direct penalties for district that do not follow those guidelines. These regs must be highly responsive given the cost of even one day of bad negations out of contract.
Public schools have understandably had their reliability questioned given many districts response to the pandemic, remote/digital school adaptation. A lot of families are questioning if they can be relied upon to be there for the kids and their families. I’m not saying it’s the teachers fault, but allowing strikes could further weaken people’s faith in their reliability. The legislature should reform the other side of the negotiation table (districts) to fix this issue. Law makers can do it in conjunction with their constituents and unions to come up with a law that would satisfy them (without the right to strike).
niknight_ml t1_j8kq314 wrote
The entire point of a labor demonstration IS to cause an inconvenience. If there is no inconvenience, there is no possibility for change to occur in those situations.
​
>If government is going to change the law to permit teachers to strike, it should only be during the summer
Are you really suggesting that they strike during a period in which they aren't under contract? That's like striking from a bagel shop that you haven't worked at in years...
guesswhatihate t1_j8mr6pk wrote
Kramer?
ShawshankExemption t1_j8krhmm wrote
You realize in mass teacher contracts go for multiple years and automatically extend if no new contract is ratified, so there isn’t a period when teachers aren’t cover by a contract right? Districts meet various federal and state requirement for grants, PD, and other items during the summer. A summer strike still causes pain for the district, admittedly not as much as during the school year.
Yes- I fully see how strikes are intend to get districts to the table to negotiate, specifically by inconveniencing them. I’m saying that the entity that inflicts that inconvenience and the nature of that convenience should not be a closure of schools, but rather other mechanisms as caused by the state law/reg I’m advocating be out in place.
One example could be an arbitration process. No new contract by x date? Forced arbitration run by the state. To extend the example, look how baseball handles their arbitration, each party (player and team) puts in what they think the pay should be for the next season. The arbitrator, using formulae decided by CBA (in this case it would be state law), determines what the number should be, and picks which ever is closer the player or the teams number. No splitting the difference so no incentive for one side to cook their number, and it frequently incentivizes teams/players to come to agreement before arbitration.
niknight_ml t1_j8kwgnm wrote
>You realize in mass teacher contracts go for multiple years and automatically extend if no new contract is ratified, so there isn’t a period when teachers aren’t cover by a contract right?
It's a little more nuanced than that. While the contract between the union and the district lasts for multiple years, individual teacher's contracts are year to year. One of the guarantees of professional status (aka tenure) is that the district has to offer you a contract for the next school year. This is why non professional status teachers (who haven't finished 3 years employment) can be non-renewed at the end of each year without reason.
​
>One example could be an arbitration process. No new contract by x date? Forced arbitration run by the state.
And you've just struck on the reason for pushing the bill allowing for strikes. Ask for the ability to strike, settle for forced arbitration. No district would willingly add it to their existing contracts (since it cedes power that they currently "have"), so you backdoor the state into requiring it as a compromise.
ShawshankExemption t1_j8kygl9 wrote
Sure- but teachers aren’t trying to negotiate their individual contracts, but their CBAs. That, combined with that this labor action is across the union, not just those teachers without professionals status, means those YoY contracts aren’t really material to that.
So teachers unions are pushing for a law/policy (striking rights) that they don’t actually want? They’re negotiating in bad faith! (/s kinda)
I think you and I agree that state government should take specific action so that unions have more leverage in negotiation. You would be okay with permitting strikes, it’s what this specific law would permit. It’s fine to say you could compromise from that, but you can’t say you don’t what what the law would give you. I personally think striking would cause far more harm than good to public education in this state broadly and that law makers need to take that into account when giving teachers unions the greater leverage they should have.
pillbinge t1_j8lcfmw wrote
As a teacher, I have never once attended anything during the summer that was required. Not at all.
ShawshankExemption t1_j8mlait wrote
You’ve never had a minimum of 3 PD days before school started? Never heard of summer school? Never been expected to prep for your year over the summer?
pillbinge t1_j8nfsm3 wrote
2 days, but those are part of the 183-185 day contract. Summer school is optional already. Prep is optional, and the onus to prep is put on teachers without pay anyway. Keep trying these entry-level responses to an actual teacher.
ShawshankExemption t1_j8nkpin wrote
Keep trying to fuck over kids you don’t give a shit about. You just want to strike to be vindictive , which is fine the district administration can be a load of ass holes, but it’s entirely wrong to say it’s in the interests of the students and the legislature should disregard those students and allow teachers to strike legally.
pillbinge t1_j8ocyv0 wrote
I work to my contract. If you don't like the contract, get a new contract during negotiations - the same way any other company would have to deal with it.
I'm begging you to stop making a fool out of yourself, though. No teacher is so vindictive. You want quality educators? Pay them. Simple as that. Far better to strike for a lousy one week than watch a slow leak of qualified veterans turn to other fields. Even lower-paying fields that are just easier to process and handle healthily.
pillbinge t1_j8lcd75 wrote
You'll get down-voted (not loaded) because it's a dumb opinion. You haven't provided any way for teachers to advocate for their interests in ways that matter. If teachers were paid what they needed already, and supported in the classroom, and not given bullshit work, they wouldn't need to strike in the first place. Nearly all strikes can be avoided.
Trying to use children as human shields in a negotiation is gross.
>If government is going to change the law to permit teachers to strike, it should only be during the summer or other, ‘non-teaching’ working days (e.g. professional development).
Then it isn't a strike. Teachers are already free to gather and complain during the summer. There's no point.
>Most importantly, the government should change the laws to force school districts and local governments to come to the table during negotiations in good faith.
That is already legally required.
>I’m not saying it’s the teachers fault, but allowing strikes could further weaken people’s faith in their reliability.
Then your comment would be more popular.
ShawshankExemption t1_j8ml4wo wrote
A solid portion of teachers work in the summer in mass, be it summer school, PD, prepping for the upcoming year, that’s all labor they can withhold then that’s critical to the district. Idk where you’re from that teachers don’t work during the summer. I meant “non-teaching” as not with the whole student body in front of them.
Once teachers and districts let things get to a point where students don’t have class because of the dispute, the kids already involved. Idk how you can’t see that.
I quite literally proposed an alternative way to bring about contract agreement.
pillbinge t1_j8odcri wrote
Summer school isn't required. You can't get fired for not working summer school. A district could be unreasonable and not renew a teacher without tenure/professional status for not doing it, but right now, they're in no such position.
PD isn't required. Prepping isn't required. And when the first day of school hits, teachers are judged on their ability to teach. Protesting in the summer to an audience of no one and calling bad lessons later on the summer's protest makes no sense.
>I quite literally proposed an alternative way to bring about contract agreement.
So did I. Tell districts to be proactive. If not, teachers can be "retroactive" and protest after a long period without changes. Seems to work. Make it so this kind of protest can't work and you'll be in good shape. No one wants to have to protest, but we don't live in that kind of world.
BlaineTog t1_j8ldkew wrote
What's the point of striking when you wouldn't otherwise be working?
If teacher strikes are so bad for kids, then shouldn't the government have pulled out all the stops to reach an equitable deal before this became necessary?
What are teachers supposed to do if their pay and work conditions are so bad that they'd want to strike over it? Should they just lie back and starve to death for other people's kids? Should they just all quit en masse? Because that seems way more disruptive for the kids than striking for a week.
You gotta think these things through. Yes, it sucks for kids to lose out of a week of school, but honestly it's probably fine. Lots of kids get taken out of school to go on family trips for a week and they're fine. They can catch up. Yes, it sucks for parents to lose free daycare, but they can avoid that by voting for better teacher pay.
What would be truly unconscionable would be a mandate for teachers to grind themselves into a paste to grease the wheels of their workplace. They are not our slaves and they do not deserve to be treated like garbage. They deserve fair wages and a workplace that allows them to thrive.
ShawshankExemption t1_j8mmihz wrote
Teachers work over the summer, obviously not as much as during the normal school year, but there is summer school, PD and other activities.
Yes! The government should’ve done way way more, I blame local districts way more than teachers unions. But at the same time it’s typically 10-20 morons in district/gov doing it. I’m saying the legislation needs to weaken their ability to be that moronic and set up more stringent rules for them to follow in negotiations to prevent work stoppages from that end.
The parents are only part of a voting populace! What about people without kids? Or whose kids are fully grown or two young? Never mind the fact the don’t directly vote for teacher pay but rather school committee members and even then that’s only ever 2 years. Yes- those elected officials may get voted out, but they are insulated until their next election.
This isn’t one kid out for a week. It’s an entire district. We just saw what happened when learned is disrupted, students academic performance and learned regressed massively over the pandemic. We saw how important it was to keep kids in school, and students are still clawing out of it. Any loss of learning is a significant loss and I’m saying state government needs to take action to prevent that from happening while protecting and strengthening teachers. Sure, the most recent strike in Woburn MA, was 1 week, but no one knew how long it would be day 1.
I’m not saying teachers need to be ground to the dirt. I’m saying the state legislature should take this nuclear option off the table and instead tie the hands of districts to negotiate in good faith.
BlaineTog t1_j8mqq8q wrote
> Teachers work over the summer, obviously not as much as during the normal school year, but there is summer school, PD and other activities.
Those activities are mostly not part of their usual teaching contract. Summer school in particular is a separate gig -- and how is it even better, according to you, for teachers to strike when they're supposed to be teaching summer school anyway?
More to the point, there's so much less going on then that a strike would be wholly ineffective.
> Yes! The government should’ve done way way more, I blame local districts way more than teachers unions. But at the same time it’s typically 10-20 morons in district/gov doing it. I’m saying the legislation needs to weaken their ability to be that moronic and set up more stringent rules for them to follow in negotiations to prevent work stoppages from that end.
That's a good start, but ultimately the teachers themselves still need leverage for negotiations to be equitable. No set of rules can adequately adapt to changing circumstances forever.
> The parents are only part of a voting populace! What about people without kids? Or whose kids are fully grown or two young? Never mind the fact the don’t directly vote for teacher pay but rather school committee members and even then that’s only ever 2 years. Yes- those elected officials may get voted out, but they are insulated until their next election.
That's just how Democracy works and ultimately we have to find a way to respect the will of the majority without crushing the minority. There's no magic wand we can wave to make everything neat and tidy. We'll need to convince those without kids that voting for more teacher pay -- in whatever form that takes -- is in their best interests. If we can't, well, I guess we just don't get to have public schools then and society will slide into a collapse until everyone else gets the picture that schools are important for everyone. Strikes bring those apocalyptical possibilities to our attention long before they become actualities.
> This isn’t one kid out for a week. It’s an entire district. We just saw what happened when learned is disrupted, students academic performance and learned regressed massively over the pandemic. We saw how important it was to keep kids in school, and students are still clawing out of it. Any loss of learning is a significant loss and I’m saying state government needs to take action to prevent that from happening while protecting and strengthening teachers. Sure, the most recent strike in Woburn MA, was 1 week, but no one knew how long it would be day 1.
One kid or a thousand, a week out still isn't going to cause serious learning loss. The school year simply isn't calibrated that tightly. A few months? Sure, that might cause problems. Sounds like we better give those essential workers what they need to do their essential work rather than prey on their empathy.
> I’m not saying teachers need to be ground to the dirt.
That's absolutely what you're saying by denying them the right to strike, though. That's the inevitable effect of denying them sufficient leverage to advocate for themselves during contract negotiations. Our economic and political systems only function properly if the network of checks and balances is intact, and the ability to strike is a potent check on the power of the employer. Remove that and the only remaining options teachers have are, a) beg, b) quit, or c) die, and we as a society should not be happy about any of those outcomes. What's next, making it illegal for teachers to quit? How Kafkaesque do we want this situation to get?
We need strikes like the Woburn teacher's strike to remind us that these people are not our slaves and that they are doing us a great service that deserves commensurate compensation. They cannot be treated like 14-year-old babysitters, paid $5 an hour plus snacks and no boyfriends/girlfriends over until the kiddos are asleep!
ShawshankExemption t1_j8mwt65 wrote
It would the strike in the summer would still be partially effective, it would still escalate the still, still withhold labor as you are calling for, and it’s better than during the school year because feelers kids would have their schooling disrupted.
Sure- rules may need to be changed and updated, like every other single rule and law ever created by humanity. That’s not a good counter argument for why we shouldn’t create them in the first place.
Strikes aren’t just a foreshadowing of the collapse of public education, I’m saying they are the first stage of the collapse of public education. If strikes are legalized, they will become common and public schools will become wholly unreliable for parents and they will look towards other options. It’s already happening with enrollment numbers dropping and interest in private education jumping.
I don’t see how you can take students missing school so flippantly, hand waive it way with them being fine. It’s tens of thousands of hours of school a year, kids not only are behind but they actually regressed because of the pandemic. If you can see that a terrible thing in and of itself, idk what there is for you.
I’m saying the legislature needs to be the entity to place the check on the school districts. I’m not saying teachers should have no leverage, I’m saying the harm caused to kids and public education at large is to great to make it permitted. Has the illegality of strikes prevented them? Nope! We’ve had 3 in the past 2 years. They’ll be a hell of a lot more than that if they become legalized.
There are more options for teachers than your a)b)c), and the legislature can create a hell of a lot more as well as other bats to bear districts with that don’t fuck over students and families like a district/teachers union caused work stoppage does.
BlaineTog t1_j8n5pdh wrote
> Sure- rules may need to be changed and updated, like every other single rule and law ever created by humanity. That’s not a good counter argument for why we shouldn’t create them in the first place.
I'm not arguing against legislating rules to force school districts to play fair. I'm arguing against solely relying on those rules. This situation cannot be solved unless teachers have the ability to advocate for themselves directly.
> Strikes aren’t just a foreshadowing of the collapse of public education, I’m saying they are the first stage of the collapse of public education. If strikes are legalized, they will become common and public schools will become wholly unreliable for parents and they will look towards other options. It’s already happening with enrollment numbers dropping and interest in private education jumping.
Because teachers don't have the legal right to strike, administrators know they effectively have them over a barrel. As such, they have minimal incentive to treat with them fairly at the negotiating table. As such, teaching conditions at public schools are terrible, thus driving teachers out of the profession or at least into private jobs. Meanwhile, you don't tend to see these kinds of strikes at private schools partially because their teachers do have the right to strike, so the schools have to play ball and treat them fairly.
If public schools are about to collapse, it's not because teachers are striking but because things have gotten so bad that teachers feel the need to strike. You're mistaking the signal for the cause. When the canary in a coal mine drops to the bottom of the cage, you should get out of the mine, not reprimand the canary for putting miners in danger.
> I don’t see how you can take students missing school so flippantly, hand waive it way with them being fine.
It's a week. School year lengths vary more than that from state to state. Dropping 5 days isn't going to make a big difference.
Now if this became a regular occurrence, or if it dragged on for months? Yeah, obviously that would be bad. Sounds like the school would have a pretty big incentive to play ball with the teachers if that were the kind of consequence that would be carried by ignoring their demands and demanding they grind themselves to dust.
Let's be honest here: the Woburn strike hurt because it pinched parents to find alternate childcare, not because these kids are actually going to see long term damage from spending a week out of school. I realize using children as a political football is a storied tradition in policy debates but they're really not the specific concern in this situation. It's because parents treat schools as just a place to dump their kids during the day for free.
> There are more options for teachers than your a)b)c), and the legislature can create a hell of a lot more as well as other bats to bear districts with that don’t fuck over students and families like a district/teachers union caused work stoppage does.
When you get right down to it, there really aren't other levers to pull here. If the district knows that you ultimately have to come in and do your job, then what reason do they have to give you what you need? Right now, we're only having this discussion because the teachers chose to strike illegally -- they made enough disruption that we've collectively realized that continuing to ignore them is not an option. Legislating school districts into paying better is nice and all, but when those laws become irrelevant and school districts go back to bending teachers into pretzels, we're going to ignore them again until they strike and make us pay attention.
ShawshankExemption t1_j8nawdc wrote
Private schools don’t face these same issues not because those teachers have a right to strike, but because they tend to be better off financially than public schools because they have more affluent families in their student community, and are able to provide higher/different comp. Not because they are unionized (the vast majority are not). Those teachers contracts actually are individual not collectively bargained.
Look, if you are good ignoring thousands of hours of learning loss, idk what to tell you. It’s a bad in if of itself, regardless of what causes it. It’s a significant price to pay by those who have the least control of the situation (the students).
You are specifically arguing for strikes to become a regular tool available to unions in negotiations. If you can’t see that strikes will become more prevalent regardless of circumstances if they are legalized you are just naive.
The canary in a coal mine is a shit metaphor. You cannot separate teachers and the union from thr situation, they are not some neutral signal like the canary is, they make up the system collectively, with the district/local govt. they are not some neutral signal.
BlaineTog t1_j8nfl6o wrote
Private school teachers not feeling the need to unionize is not the flex you think it is. You are absolutely correct that private schools generally have better funding, though. Sounds like we oughta fund our public schools better if we want to avoid frequent strikes, right?
> Look, if you are good ignoring thousands of hours of learning loss, idk what to tell you. It’s a bad in if of itself, regardless of what causes it. It’s a significant price to pay by those who have the least control of the situation (the students).
Learning loss doesn't happen over a single week. If it did, there would be calls to eliminate break weeks and anyone who took their kid out of school for any amount of time would be guilty of child abuse. Grandma passed away in another country and you want to take your child to the funeral? Too bad! CPS is going to show up at your door and drag your kid to school instead.
You can't just aggregate school time loss into a big number and call it harmful because it's big. Learning loss happens individually, so you needs to consider the time lost on an individual basis, and losing a week isn't going to be a serious problem for any individual kid. I'm just saying, let's be honest about why the Woburn strike had people up in a tizzy. It's not the kids who were harmed: it's the parents' pocketbooks and time.
Look, obviously it would be bad for kids if teachers were striking all the time. Giving them the ability to strike legally doesn't mean that will happen. Not giving it to them does mean that schools will continue to rot and die from the inside.
> You are specifically arguing for strikes to become a regular tool available to unions in negotiations. If you can’t see that strikes will become more prevalent regardless of circumstances if they are legalized you are just naive.
They absolutely could be come more common... if the school districts insist on continuing to treat teachers like slaves. The point is that they wouldn't, because their failures to negotiate would be much more public and painful. They'd have to play ball instead of having all the power to themselves.
> The canary in a coal mine is a shit metaphor. You cannot separate teachers and the union from thr situation, they are not some neutral signal like the canary is, they make up the system collectively, with the district/local govt. they are not some neutral signal.
It's a perfectly good metaphor regardless of the interconnectivity of the system. Strikes don't happen in healthy workplaces.
ShawshankExemption t1_j8nkavg wrote
I didn’t say non-unionized private schools were good/better because of their non-unionization. I’m saying your logic that because those teachers can strike, it is the root cause for why they don’t strike is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy and provide what I believe is the alternative mechanism for why they don’t experience strikes.
There are absolutely folks questioning the utility of the winter and spring breaks in mass, as well as the summer gap, and if our agricultural society based education calendar is still appropriate today.
If you are dealing with district wide learning time loss, you absolutely do have to aggregate it together. Is each student going to ‘suffer’ the exact same? Not at all, some will have it hit them more than others. But you can’t just hand waive it all away. Those examples you present are individual kids and situation as determined by the parents. If school district decided to close a school for a month because of utility issues and just sent the kids home you’re sure as shit there would be an inquiry. If a parent took their kids out of school for a month? Sure as shit CPS and the school are going to have questions.
Strikes aren’t the only tool possible to protect teachers. They are just your preferred tool.
-Horatio_Alger_Jr- t1_j8jdkil wrote
Public employees shouldn't be able to unionize. Public unions should not exist.
Edit - I am not going to respond to every ridiculous comment on my post.
If it is a safety issue, call OSHA. There is no need for a union.
If it is about compensation, put forth legislation to fund a pay raise. There is no need for a union.
A public employee using the government boot to step on the necks of the taxpayers until they get better individual compensation is a selfish tactic.
3720-To-One t1_j8jike9 wrote
Police unions can certainly get bent.
mattgm1995 t1_j8juaou wrote
Yeah teachers should just get fucked even more.
niknight_ml t1_j8kr86r wrote
>If it is a safety issue, call OSHA. There is no need for a union.
Fun fact, public schools are not subject to OSHA regulation unless they're vocational schools. (I learned about this one during my laboratory safety training)
​
>If it is about compensation, put forth legislation to fund a pay raise. There is no need for a union.
The contracts are between the unions and the municipality, since they are municipal employees. The state just can't pass legislation saying "hey Boston, you need to give your teachers a 4% raise this year.
​
>A public employee using the government boot to step on the necks of the taxpayers until they get better individual compensation is a selfish tactic.
And the school committees and select boards refusing to negotiate in good faith (or at all, recently) because the employees can't strike is perfectly ok in your eyes, though?
pillbinge t1_j8lcjj8 wrote
>If it is about compensation, put forth legislation to fund a pay raise. There is no need for a union.
What happens if you don't get that legislation through but they do put forth legislation to increase teachers' workloads?
ArchaicArchetype t1_j8jkuwj wrote
The common reasoning against striking is that workers can just quit.
However, a teacher for example, is given their summer pay as a lump sum at the end of the year instead of being distributed through their working hours. In practice this means that teachers who leave before the school year's end lose 25% of their yearly pay. This would be similar to if you quit your job, 25% of your pay was held as a punishment. No private employer would get away with this.
This traps teachers financially and forces them to work through the school year. When they do quit, new teachers are unwittingly put into the same unreformed system. The new teachers are not tenured and won't be able to voice any disagreement without fear of repercussion furthering the lack of change.
To the public, no loss of service is immediately noticable. But the system is rotting.
Striking is a tool to break through the necrosis caused by stagnant administration and local government.
niknight_ml t1_j8kssor wrote
>However, a teacher for example, is given their summer pay as a lump sum at the end of the year instead of being distributed through their working hours. In practice this means that teachers who leave before the school year's end lose 25% of their yearly pay. This would be similar to if you quit your job, 25% of your pay was held as a punishment. No private employer would get away with this.
​
Umm... not even close. The pay you get is for 185 work days. If you leave during the year, you will be paid for the number of days you worked. If the amount you were paid doesn't cover all of the days you worked, the difference will be added to your last check.
The "summer pay" you speak of is the district paying out the balance owed on your contract if you decided (or the district required) your pay to be split into 26 checks instead of 21. The only reason why it's doled out in a balloon payment is because the year-to-year contracts expire on June 30 (before the start of the next fiscal year on July 1), so they can't have any remaining obligations on their books.
pillbinge t1_j8lcs3s wrote
Teachers only get paid in lump sums at the end if that's how they distribute their paychecks. They still get paid for the days they work, fair and square. You don't lose out on that pay if you quit - that's the same as any other job. It's just chunked up a bit differently.
ShawshankExemption t1_j8km852 wrote
While I’m sure other districts pay teachers like this, not every single one does and many give individual teachers options (out of a set) on how they want to be paid.
Many other jobs/employers also have claw back provisions on compensation so teachers wouldn’t be unique in this regard.
Bada__Ping t1_j8jfqcy wrote
You mean using public safety and children as bargaining chips shouldn't be allowed?!
bastard_swine t1_j8k7eku wrote
It's actually the opposite, teachers' passion for education and care for their students is typically held against them to discourage them from striking and demanding better conditions, hence why teaching is one of the most underpaid professions requiring a graduate degree and there is a dire shortage across the country. As someone going into education, I think more teachers need to realize their empathy is being taken advantage of and realize we can only care for students as much as their taxpayer parents do, which as it stands is very little.
AnyRound5042 t1_j8jpz4m wrote
What about using made up public safety and made up children as bargaining chips in online arguments?
ShawshankExemption t1_j8ku2h3 wrote
These are literally teachers, the children aren’t made up. They are the students.
AnyRound5042 t1_j8mfujk wrote
Are the children in the room with us right now?
ShawshankExemption t1_j8mmnjf wrote
Actually no, the kids are at home because their teachers walked out and the district screwed them.
AnyRound5042 t1_j8mw8y1 wrote
So, just to be clear, you want worse conditions for both the kids AND the people tasked with keeping them safe or is it only the teachers who should have bad conditions? I just want to make sure I understand your position
ShawshankExemption t1_j8mx5wh wrote
I’m saying I want the legislature to give teachers unions alternative tools, and coerce districts in alternative ways, to get to an agreement, without forcing kids out of the class room.
Bada__Ping t1_j8jqfbv wrote
Ah yes, the old "There is 0 need for any police & there are no children in the schools that the teachers on strike are employed at" strategy. Bold.
AnyRound5042 t1_j8jqrc6 wrote
Thanks for proving the point
ArchaicArchetype t1_j8jhkv0 wrote
Striking is a fundamental worker's right as is collective bargaining.
Pushing against these rights directly led to the toxic chemical spill in Ohio.
You cannot make the problems of a system go away by stripping away worker's rights. All you will do is make it illegal for them to protest when our children or they as workers are being mistreated.