Does Don Winslow introduce endless female characters just to write explicitly about their bodies and sex lives?

Submitted by hammnbubbly t3_zz0jca in books

I’m halfway through book two of the Cartel Trilogy and literally every female’s body and sex life is excruciatingly detailed. Winslow occasionally revisits the plot, but only to trail off, yet again, about a new female character and how she’s going to use her body to please the men around her. He’s currently telling the story of an underage girl who’s sleeping with a married policeman. The crime saga of these books has been great. But, I’m starting to think Winslow is a creep who sees women, especially Mexican women, as pieces of meat. I’ll finish this trilogy to see how the story wraps up, but I’ll never read another Don Winslow book.

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ManyCats247 t1_j28qzi3 wrote

Gross! Thank you for the warning! I keep a notebook on my desk and write down so many great book recommendations from this subreddit. My list is starting to get a healthy number of Nope books, too. I'm so tired of this kind of writer.

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Bodidiva t1_j2984vq wrote

>I'm so tired of this kind of writer.

amen to that.

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shebeogden t1_j29fkg0 wrote

Make sure you have Jim Butcher and all his Dresden books on that list. Nipples, thighs, and ass are what his female characters are made of. Regardless of age or relationship with characters.

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King_of_Cold26 t1_j2a625m wrote

This goes outside the realm of opinion and into straight up falsehood. There are many female characters that have depth, that dresden does not comment on sexualy. Charity Carpenter comes to mind. The books are narrated from the perspective of the main character. He states himself that it is a flaw in his character. It gets much better as the series goes on. It's not bad writing, it's character development. If you don't believe me, read his other works. This issue is completely gone from it.

I'm so tired of hearing this view from people that think every sexual description of a woman is misogynistic. Most of the characters that are described sexualy are actively using it as tool to manipulate people around them. Context matters. Every time people like to point out as over sexualized is either a character flaw of the protagonist, or someone using sex appeal as a manipulation.

The books are great and while they are far from perfect they have a awsome story and some of the best characters. Don't let people like this idiot stop you from enjoying good series.

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fluvicola_nengeta t1_j2afb3b wrote

It's honestly a concerning issue how so many people no longer seem capable of differentiating character from author, and not enough people are talking about this. The number of people who can read and write perfectly fine but aren't literate is growing alarmingly, and this has a much bigger chance of putting literature in a bad place than "those damn phones and the internet" ever did.

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Anathos117 t1_j2aj7qu wrote

> It's honestly a concerning issue how so many people no longer seem capable of differentiating character from author

I had the temerity to suggest that what an author writes isn't indicative of their personal character. You can now find my comment buried at the bottom under a pile of downvotes.

People aren't just not talking about this, they're actively hostile to the notion.

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owarren t1_j2ahc99 wrote

I had someone tell me that GRR Martin was a piece of garbage because of Ramsay Bolton. Blew my mind.

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fluvicola_nengeta t1_j2b0kya wrote

On this very thread we have someone calling Nabokov a pedophile. It's just insane.

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Anathos117 t1_j2b50wa wrote

> On this very thread we have someone calling Nabokov

If you actually read both sentences in my comment you'll see that I was literally saying the opposite.

You need to work on your reading compensation.

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fluvicola_nengeta t1_j2b5n89 wrote

Fair enough. But in my defense it wasn't too much of a reading comprehension thing. As soon as I read statements like that I skip the rest of the comment and move on with my life because after a while it gets exhausting. That's my bad either way.

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Anathos117 t1_j2be3xl wrote

> As soon as I read statements like that I skip the rest of the comment

How could you possibly read the phrase "that famous pedophile Nabokov" and not pick up on the sarcasm? Nabokov isn't famous for being a pedophile.

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fluvicola_nengeta t1_j2dluld wrote

I don't think he is. Lots of people have been saying that he is, though. The very people I was complaining about in my original comment, in fact, so we both need to work on our reading comprehension. Despite my apology, you seem intent on nitpicking things to object to, though, so I'm peacing out of this exchange. Happy new year.

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sleeper_medic t1_j2ag6ks wrote

I hate books with sex in them in general. I really really hate books where most or all women are objectified ceaselessly.

I love books warnings about that because it saves me time, money, and frustration.

If that’s the sort of book you like, more power to you.

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cpt_tusktooth t1_j2akbp4 wrote

You dont read romance novels?

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sleeper_medic t1_j2akv0c wrote

Not if I can help it. At least not in the typical sense. I don’t mind a romance subplot or something if it’s not gratuitously sexual or over the top. But I don’t read books that are overtly romantic or sexual.

My favorite book ever does have a romance subplot and a total of one (not especially graphic) sex scene. But for most of the book the MCs partner is dead and she is trying to figure out what happened to him.

Bodice rippers and what not? Are not for me.

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Waywoah t1_j29hd6h wrote

Fortunately, he seems to have grown as the stories have continued (which makes sense, considering the first one was written as a college student) and cut that stuff way down.
That said, I can certainly understand someone not wanting to read the earlier stuff to get to that point.

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shebeogden t1_j29mvbz wrote

I kept getting told that so I read 15 books of the series. It toned down in the way that felt like it was just to stop the whining. But it was still a bunch of women titting boobily into the room. Every female that entered the scene was evaluated by her sexuality and availability to Dresden. Every woman, even in the later novels, wanted to bone him. Nipples through every shirt. Hips suggesting things, even if the owner actively wanted to kill him. I gave up at the beginning of Peace Talks (#16). I really liked the stories but I just couldn’t anymore.

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AENocturne t1_j29vitl wrote

Lmao titting boobily

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fizzlefist t1_j29wygf wrote

So is it a booby trying to pass itself off as a tit? Or is it three tits in a trenchcoat trying to be a booby? >!Bird Humor!<

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Waywoah t1_j2amldn wrote

I get that, I would never fault someone for not reading them due to that stuff as I’m not a fan of it either. I love the books, and I understand that he keeps at least some of it in to maintain the “noir vibe”, but I’m definitely in the camp of thinking they’d be better without them.

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ArchmageXin t1_j2amw53 wrote

Dresden's character is a healthy adult male, nothing wrong noting the girl he is meeting is hot or whatever.

But he had relationships with 3 women throughout the series, and technically real relationship with only one of them. Compared to a lot of writers Dresden's life is pretty tame.

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BudgetMattDamon t1_j2a2ehh wrote

Butcher is a notable example of a writer who's actually tried to evolve past that. It's also difficult to say how much of it is Butcher and not just his depiction of Harry Dresden.

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Mad_Aeric t1_j2a7w3h wrote

Given that his other works are much better about that issue, I think it's mainly just Harry. Though what he's done with Butters definitely invokes an exasperated sigh from me.

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BudgetMattDamon t1_j2a8nrs wrote

You're right - I was actually thinking of Michael of an example of a completely different and non-sexist character written by Butcher. I liked Butters a lot but he got Flanderized hard.

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ArchmageXin t1_j2amizp wrote

> got Flanderized hard.

Is that where he got the Holy-Light-Saber, or the part banging an literal werewolf girl?

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AmnesiaCane t1_j2ansfz wrote

The in universe short stories from the perspective of other characters don't do that, even from what I recall Thomas's short story lacks any descriptions of anyone's nipples. I agree Butcher is probably inserting a degree of personal fantasy into Dresden's descriptions, but I think he's aware of it and limits it to just Dresden. And even in the main books, Dresden gets called out for that sort of behavior repeatedly, usually by female characters.

I mean, on the one hand, sexuality is literally a weapon being used by half of the things he encounters (fey, whamps, etc.), so it's no surprise Harry notices them. On the other hand, Butcher is the one who put them there, and Butcher sure likes to use sexy feminine monsters a hell of a lot more than he uses bigfoot.

If someone doesn't like sexuality in their books, Dresden Files are probably not for them, and that's ok. But that doesn't make it problematic or even just bad writing on the part of Butcher.

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Anathos117 t1_j2aqppi wrote

> On the other hand, Butcher is the one who put them there, and Butcher sure likes to use sexy feminine monsters a hell of a lot more than he uses bigfoot.

We can't really be sure he actually likes it. That's the whole problem with people extrapolating content to author character: there's no actual certainty of connection between the two. Maybe he does it because he thinks it makes the books sell better. Maybe he does it to maintain a consistent theme. Maybe he does it to upset people. There's no way to know, short of Butcher literally telling us his reasons.

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AmnesiaCane t1_j2capub wrote

Right, Butcher notoriously plays his cards to his chest and clearly doesn't enjoy giving away details about himself, his world, or his writing process to his fans at the drop of a hat. He's so inscrutable!

I'm sorry for being sarcastic, I do appreciate your point and the conversation, but come on. If you know anything at all about him, you know he definitely likes it.

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ArchmageXin t1_j2ans5t wrote

The question is, for being a Magic + Noir detective character, his sex life is actually pretty stale compared to a lot of books I read about.

It is not like the dude is running an Isekai harem or something. In 15 books he had maybe 1 relationship that last more than a few months.

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BudgetMattDamon t1_j2atm9h wrote

That's actually a point I hadn't considered, but it makes sense.

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ArchmageXin t1_j2avkpa wrote

Plus, a lot of time he mention "boob and tits" is from a noir Chicago detective point of view, which give him the old, politically incorrect type of character. (As opposed to say, Michael Carpenter or Butters).

So what if he notice the Queen of Air and Darkness have a nice ass? You can sue him :P

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lunatics_and_poets t1_j2bcmum wrote

He created Harry Dresden though? These character do not simply emerge from the mind fully formed. At every stage, the author makes choices on what kind of character they want to create and the tone they want to set for their series. Everything is a choice for AND against something.

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Anathos117 t1_j2bepns wrote

Sure, but authors can and generally do depict characters with different values and personalities than their own. Authors also create the villains in their stories; do you assume that they are indicative of the authors' character?

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Electronic_Basis7726 t1_j2cn2ft wrote

Is depiction always endorsment for you?

And just to set the stage, I think Dresden books go overboard with the description of women.

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NeedsMaintenance_ t1_j2beun5 wrote

I agree with you, and I've definitely had moments where I've questioned the necessity of something Butcher has thrown into Harry's narrative to us.

That said, it has gotten better and so I think since such a big part of your point is that authors make their choices for and against things, it's only fair to point out that Butcher has made the choice to do better, and not sexualize characters as much.

The other thing is that Harry has a darker half, an alter-ego that we don't know tons about yet and apparenty will in Mirror, Mirror, but it's there; of impulse and drives and darkness. I suspect that Harry's rage and his lust problems are going to bite him in the ass soon, which is probably building towards a narrative of "these flaws of Harry's hurt him and those around him", just like they do to a person in real life. I think we're building towards realistic consequences for Harry's toxic traits.

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gregnog t1_j2a7obm wrote

Huh? I need to take this sub with a hefty grain of salt if this comment is getting upvotes. Ridiculous.

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hardcider t1_j2ag45l wrote

Any sub that grows large enough is bound to give traction to silly ideas. Always healthy to be skeptical.

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selectiveyellow t1_j2aleh0 wrote

Butcher is kind of shooting himself in the foot here, where the genre he's bouncing off of is largely sexist and he's playing into it. So yeah, it's a bit, but it's also a bit much.

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platoprime t1_j2ampsd wrote

Sure but there's a difference between not liking it and judging it.

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selectiveyellow t1_j2avvvj wrote

Is there?

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platoprime t1_j2axkdo wrote

Yes.

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selectiveyellow t1_j2axovj wrote

Is there tho?

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platoprime t1_j2b34k2 wrote

I guess there isn't if you can't read so as far as you're concerned no.

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selectiveyellow t1_j2b556q wrote

I don't think there is, I think the difference is diplomacy and semantics. People who dislike it dislike it because they are judging it through that lens. So the difference between dislike and judgement is how you perceive the person complaining about it views the readers who enjoy the series. So it's not dislike of the work vs. judging the author, it is probably more so dislike of the work vs. you feeling judged.

Same thing happened with the Orson Scott Card controversy, lots of emotional meltdowns to be seen of people defending their enjoyment of his works. Not that this is all that similar, I do believe that Jim Butcher makes Dresden an ass on purpose and is not himself a hardboiled misogynist.

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ManyCats247 t1_j29gs3m wrote

Yuck. Thanks for the advice, I'll update my list!

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AmnesiaCane t1_j29le1d wrote

They're noir detective novels written from the perspective of a character with outdated views on women, the author's other writings (even the occasional short stories from the perspective of other characters in universe, many of which are from the perspective of said women) aren't written that way (with a few early-on exceptions). The female characters are actually really great, they're interesting and multi-faceted, it's just the first thing the narrator notices about them because he's a horndog.

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Adverlation t1_j2a13cw wrote

They're parodies of noir detective novels. Later books while the parody is still present, it takes itself more seriously because he wrote to just about every parody.

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Lebo77 t1_j29kdka wrote

As a fan of the Dresden books I have to say I disagree with the poster above. Many of the female characters are deeper than that.

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cthulhubert t1_j2ac750 wrote

Yeah, I feel like this is starting to turn into one of those things where there's a kernel (well, maybe more than a kernel) of truth, but it's blown out of proportion by a critical feedback loop.

Like it is a legitimate criticism of the books! Dresden is diegetically shallow and focusing on women's bodies and Butcher puts a lot of sexy women in the books. And I hate that people act like the sexism being diegetic or part of the noir detective tropes cancel those facts out; they're still choices the author made, and those choices are going to have a negative impact on many readers! But people are getting very un-measured about those criticisms, and act like it's as thoroughly drenched in misogyny as much worse offenders. His female characters are often badasses and have agency and interiority that the honestly shitty writers don't give women.

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Griffen_07 t1_j2ak3pi wrote

That still don’t mean Dresden is a book I’m ever going to recommend. It just means that Butcher is not a completely horrible writer. The Dresden books are still middling under a deep layer of crap. I bounced off after Harry wanted good boy points for not having sex with his best friend’s daughter who was put in his care. He is a creep and was written to be a creep.

I’ve dropped books for less. Dresden at least avoids rape which puts it above a good chunk of books like Pern and the dragon roofies.

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zerombr t1_j29s0cs wrote

Many are, but like white night is pretty bad. No less than three characters had this intro

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Lebo77 t1_j29zu3k wrote

The books are written from Harry's perspective. Harry is often a sexually frustrated heterosexual male often encountering supernaturally (litterally) attractive women. It's not shocking those are tge sorts of things he notices.

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NotACockroach t1_j2a2mlc wrote

What is shocking is his extreme awareness of when his friend's teenage daughter may or may not have started wearing a training bra.

Most humans divide life into child, teenager and adult. Dresden divides girls live into no bra, training bra and regular bra.

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surnik22 t1_j29uuth wrote

Ya, I’d also disagree.

The big part like other have mentioned is it’s a Noir detective series written from the thoughts a ~25 year old man (at the start) who has almost no “dating life”. Later books when the pov matures and short stories from other perspectives (including a dog) are way different.

Also it’s a fantasy series and he is regularly interacting with literal sex vampires, magically beautiful Fae, and more. Pointing out the attraction and how you have to fight to stay focused while dealing with them is part of the plot.

That said, it also isn’t perfect. There are still some time where it goes a bit overboard in my opinion

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Zora74 t1_j2a4k14 wrote

If you like the Dresden series but not the doughy main character or the objectification of all beings female, you should try Jordan Castillo Price’s Psycops series. A lot of similarities, none of the misogyny. The main character is a mediium who ends up working as a homicide detective because of his paychic ability and despite his lack of coping abilities, so when we meet him he is alone, abusing drugs, and suffering from a lot of untreated PTSD. The character undergoes a lot of growth and develops healthy relationships and constructive coping mechanisms but always stays in character. Warning for some very explicit m/m sex scenes.

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that-john-kydd t1_j2a7ddo wrote

This is why I stopped reading the series. 7 books in and just got to be too much.

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zerombr t1_j29ruy3 wrote

Yeah his earlier work has become problematic

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StarkestMadness t1_j2anu86 wrote

It's silly that you're getting downvoted for saying this. Look, I'm a massive Dresden fan, and I have been since I was a teenager. I bought the collector's edition statue when it came out a few years ago. If you could look at my subreddit hours, I'm sure the amount spent on r/dresdenfiles would be concerning.

But to blithely ignore the series's problems is equally concerning. The fact that the female characters are also well-realized and developed doesn't change the fact that Harry, inter alia, has commented on more than one underage woman's attractiveness. Even Small Favor, which I see as a turning point in the series's maturity, has a scene when Harry comments on an adolescent Ivy's body. I honestly don't know if I'd recommend the series to anyone in 2022. The farthest I might go is to say "start at Book 10."

Edit: grammar

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zerombr t1_j2ao4ws wrote

It's okay. I bear no hate for it. They love the books too.

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Overtaker40 t1_j2al48c wrote

I haven't read this author, but shouldn't you try some of these for yourself to decide. It's subjective to some degree how people interpret the writing.

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Advanced-Ad6676 t1_j2a4j71 wrote

I’ve been listening to a lot of Stephen King short stories and am shocked how every female character’s breasts are described when they are introduced. Not shocked at how they are described, but shocked that they’re described at all. Who cares? The justification I’ve read is, “a lot of his stories are from the pov of the male character and men notice women’s breasts.” We also mentally debate whether or not it’s a good time to take a shit, but that never makes it into books.

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npeggsy t1_j2a8eh6 wrote

I am a big time fan of Stephen King, but I agree with everything you've said here. I think the only thing that's worth raising is there really aren't that many fans trying to justify it (at least not on his subreddit), a lot of people who love his books have issues with this too.

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Skeegle04 t1_j2acs0e wrote

I was made aware of this years ago by one of my classmates (long red hair, supple petite breasts, round, pushing through a cardigan) who was reading Bag of Bones. Really kind of weird, though I still read King

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laowildin t1_j2abou6 wrote

So weird to me how whenever this tendency is brought up men flock to the comments to say, "But it makes sense for the character because this really is all young men think or care about!"

So yall just outing yourselves like that?!

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joeld t1_j2ai574 wrote

To the extent that it is true and they are outing themselves, maybe they could consider that exactly this kind of lizard-brain writing re women characters is part of the reason they’ve been pavloved into being obsessed like that

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fuckit_sowhat t1_j2aheym wrote

Also when they say it’s “the character, not the author” who feels/thinks this way. Okay, sure, but who wrote the character that way? The author!

So it’s not the author who is sexist towards women, but rather the character. That the author made and could have created with any characteristics they wanted. And they chose sexism.

At the end of the day though, I don’t care if the author is sexist or not, I have no interest in reading about un-challenged, blatant, casual sexism in my books that should be fun. I deal with enough of it in real life.

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zzrryll t1_j2akc7j wrote

> who wrote the character that way? The author!

Well. Plus, as a male human, I definitely think some odd thoughts here and there that I don’t see conveyed in a novel.

To your point, the author doesn’t choose to have the protagonist randomly think “Jesus. My taint smells like death today” when said protagonist hasn’t showered in a few days and they’re wearing fabrics that don’t breathe well.

In that case the author is choosing to omit random brain noise that doesn’t add to the story. I’d argue that any chatter about a woman’s bust size could also be omitted as non-pertinent brain noise.

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balwick t1_j2av03f wrote

"The author" also wrote every antagonist in those books, and the murders, genocides, and other atrocities inflicted by those characters are not held against the author.

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astonaidan t1_j2arvnn wrote

Not really outing themselves though, its literally all young men think about. It would be like me as an older man writing about seeing a nice mint tea

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munificent t1_j2arqqz wrote

> We also mentally debate whether or not it’s a good time to take a shit, but that never makes it into books.

Stephen King will definitely have a character thinking about needing to take a shit. I'm pretty sure I recall multiple characters pissing themselves. Hell, one character in Under the Dome spends most of the POV chapters dealing with their migraines (when they aren't, you know, murdering people and commiting necrophilia).

The whole vibe of Stephen King is that he peels back the decorous surface and shows all the gross, creepy, murderous, dirty, selfish, avaricious aspects of human nature that we try to pretend don't exist. If you want an escape from any of the whole rainbow of base instincts that humans struggle with, then King is not your jam.

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Upton_Sinclair_Lewis t1_j2a7amn wrote

"Fan service" ?

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Griffen_07 t1_j2al0ae wrote

Got it in one. Blood, sex, and graphic violence sells. The exact mix varies by genre but at this point it’s the chief difference between YA and adult.

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Crackertron t1_j2ac0h1 wrote

Can you give some examples? The only one that comes to mind is the Mist where the neighbor is creeping on the main character's wife.

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grimache83 t1_j2afw2u wrote

I'm just starting The Institution & he described an underage teen girl something along the lines of "budding breasts". Also a lot of the flashbacks in IT w/ the girl character, I mean hell, there's a scene in that book that's basically all the boys running a train on her, I felt very creeped out reading that. I'm a huge King fan, but yeah, it's a thing with him.

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Sei926 t1_j2aj5cv wrote

I stopped reading Mr. Mercedes for that reason

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Crackertron t1_j2ahee4 wrote

So 2 novels, one of which is from the 80s. Anything from Night Shift or Everything's Eventual?

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JasonAble t1_j2ar6kx wrote

Sure. I'm a fan of King btw, it's fine to admit he has a slightly weird fixation on boobs and fat people and still enjoy his work/think he's a decent person. I excluded several instances that seemed more natural or necessary than these, although I have only read Night Shift out of the two specific works you requested.

Night Shift:

"My sister was a girl with pigtails, still without breasts." (pre-teen girl)

"There is a rolling IV tray with two bottles hung from it, like a Salvador Dali dream of tits."

Everything's Eventual:

"(Roland believed this one might be a woman, with the dangling vestiges of breasts beanth the vest it wore)"

"The one in the red vest was female. Her bare breasts swinging beneath the dirty red vest were the last things he saw..."

"Or maybe she's blowing GM cowboys in Austin or Wendover - bending forward until her breasts press flat on her thighs beneath a calendar showing tulips in Holland; gripping set after set of flabby buttocks in her hands and thinking about what to watch on TV that night, when her shift is done."

"I was aware of her breasts pushing against me, and the wet, warm clamminess over them."

"I could feel Diane's breasts brush against my back as she gasped for breath."

"She wore the medal until breasts grew around it like ordinary miracles."

"(the head housekeeper, she of the formidable gunshell tits and set, red-painted mouth)"

"I would meet a cute chick with nifty little tits"

"She sounded like the kind of woman who needs a smack every second week or so to keep her tits up."

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grimache83 t1_j2ai8u8 wrote

I don't think I've read those. I know the Dark Tower series has some weird sexual stuff, The Stand too. Browse this thread I found for plenty more. I'm not arguing to not read King, but you can't ignore the fact that a lot of his books have things like this.

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TuckerThaTruckr t1_j2b2m7q wrote

The only excuse for that is a lot of his old stories were written specifically to be published in pulpy story magazines, many of which were marketed to men. Kind of an “it was the style at the time” excuse and King does have some weird passages but he gets a pass in my book. He seems like good people. It’s hard to hold older art to 2022 pc standards

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TheSiegmeyerCatalyst t1_j2b6j32 wrote

Hyperion is this way, too.

There are a grand total of 2 women in the story who have any meaningful part to play at all who are not sexualized. Dan Simmons has an uncomfortable fixation on describing breasts and nipples. Not even battle scenes or underage girls are safe.

Book reads like a competent adult author did a professional rendition of a high school boy's draft of a scifi plot.

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DokZayas t1_j2anwzs wrote

There is never a debate when I have to shit.

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supergnawer t1_j2dd28z wrote

I mean, I'm a guy, and I do notice breasts. I will not normally talk about it, but I do that. So for me it's just a detail that adds to the character. Also Stephen King mentions a whole lot of gross details like that, that's the point of his writing. For me personally, it's something along the lines of saying openly what everyone's thinking. Like, I know this subject is gross, but it affects my life, and I like that someone was able to discuss a similar experience.

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BaginaJon t1_j29mqkl wrote

I quit reading savages like a 10 years ago because it was shitty.

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elhombreloco90 t1_j2bfgaa wrote

Yeah, I was interested in Savages, but it was like reading porn at times. It felt entirely unnecessary. I'm not saying sex or the like has no place in books or media in general, but it was ridiculous.

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Rick90069 t1_j2btgio wrote

Read City on Fire, loved it. Great novel. Picked up Savages and plowed through a lot of cringey sex scenes because Winslow had earned my good will but I got to a particularly porny threesome and bailed.

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i_wantcookies t1_j29e5td wrote

Oh no that’s disappointing. I’ve wanted to read his books for a long a time.

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cpt_tusktooth t1_j2ajwsk wrote

Dont read the witcher Either.

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Overtaker40 t1_j2akwkl wrote

It's not that bad. I mean yeah it's got some wierd moments across the series but women are not written as objects they just live in a shit world.

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LuthienByNight t1_j2apdzg wrote

That's such a lazy excuse for gritty fantasy writers, though. There are so many ways to portray a world in which the darker aspects of human nature hold sway beyond describing your attractive female characters get sexually assaulted. It's the shallowest and lowest effort way of interpreting "gritty".

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NeoSeth t1_j2aqam8 wrote

I absolutely agree. Women being victims of sexual violence in a "gritty" world may be "realistic" (Have I used enough air quotes to show my disdain?) but that doesn't mean I want to read about it. Even if it is a theme you want to touch on, you can just reference it or imply it. I don't need to watch it play out. I am convinced in many male-authored fantasy stories involving rape and SA, it reflects the author's inability to separate women as people from the author's perception of them as sexual objects. "I need something bad to happen to this woman. Women make me think of sex. I know! She'll be sexually assaulted!" Give me a break.

I am well aware not every gritty story is like this. But it is too common imo.

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LuthienByNight t1_j2axy8w wrote

Not to mention that the genre in which this is so often a problem is fantasy. As in "you created this entire culture and people out of your own fertile imagination and you get to decide what their culture is like". Since when did fantasy have to remain faithful to specific aspects of certain historical cultures? You can draw inspiration from medieval Europe, but your fantasy place is still entirely your own to invent.

I think that part of this boils down to the idea that the weight we place on consent is a more modern concept and that if a society is earlier in development, then there's bound to be a lot of rape. Well, the Code of Ur-Nammu from over four thousand years ago punished rape against a woman with execution. It all varies from place to place. There are a million reasons that an otherwise gritty fantasy culture wouldn't have a lot of rape, and the exercise of figuring out what those are could provide for better depth and world building around the society itself.

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Not-your-lawyer- t1_j2cuhxz wrote

It's also (often) not internally consistent. If you've got a sword & sorcery story where everyone has some sort of power, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for your female characters to be vulnerable damsels.

I know ASOIAF isn't really the best example as a whole, but the bits with the free folk beyond the wall hit the contradiction pretty well, since the women are warriors as well. There's a bit from Tormund, I think, saying that someone "can own a knife or a woman but not both." And fantasy forgets that all the time. Your characters have fucking superpowers, dude. An armed society might not always be a polite society, but the "impolite" people are gonna be short lived.

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lunatics_and_poets t1_j2bbuj7 wrote

Any time they claim historical accuracy I roll my eyes and ask them if they're willing to describe women with actually body hair (and not just arm pits).

You want to claim historical accuracy for your r*pe fantasies then you gotta claim the fact that hairless women were not historically accurate either.

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NeoSeth t1_j2bovva wrote

I think about that a lot, actually. This is close to another soapbox of mine, but I'll be brief and just say I believe people make a lot of excuses to justify fulfilling their sexual fantasies in their art.

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TehScaryWolf t1_j2bliyl wrote

This just made me reimagine a lot of history scenes as various versions of Cousin It playing everyone.

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Born-Anybody3244 t1_j2b3no6 wrote

Had this super annoying conversation with my mum over Christmas where she was arguing that the depiction of insest & rape of minors in the game of thrones tv series was "essential" to the plot and wouldn't be realistic without it. I don't watch the series but my cousin said there was a sex/rape scene in the new spinoff featuring actress who is only 16 or 17. My mum for the life of her could not understand why I would be against depicting sexual violence in TV shows for the sake of making the story more "realistic".

Like...we get it, and you can allude to these things without focussing on them.

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Papaofmonsters t1_j2b6ucp wrote

>Had this super annoying conversation with my mum over Christmas where she was arguing that the depiction of insest & rape of minors in the game of thrones tv series was "essential" to the plot and wouldn't be realistic without it

Incest is kind of essential to the plot when it revolves around a family that has wed brother to sister for centuries.

>I don't watch the series but my cousin said there was a sex/rape scene in the new spinoff featuring actress who is only 16 or 17.

If it's Milly Alcock, she's 22.

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Electronic_Basis7726 t1_j2cmrqk wrote

The actress was 22.

And honestly, Incest was essential to the plot of Game of Thrones, it is the incident that lead to the whole thing. Bran, and so the audience, had to see who were fucking, so that Jaime can push Bran from the window. If I remember correctly, it was clothed sex at well. Realistic? I mean, some noble families had interbreeding, humanity is weird.

In HotD the plot revolvs around a family that marries their close family, traditionally. I think realism is a bad argument here, but it also isn't a moral failing on part of show writers.

Can 16 y old (character) consent to an adult man? I mean, not really. The show isnt endorsing it by showing it though, and the adult man is a shady character so it isn't a case of "but the good guy is doing it". The scene was pretty artfully shot, it focused more on what the character's were feeling than straight up porn.

There absolutely is unnecessary sexual assault and nudity in GoT. I think you chose poor examples of it.

1

Overtaker40 t1_j2c5zkf wrote

Find different content. Not everything has to be too your taste.

I mean fuck you don't even watch it. You shouldn't even give a shit.

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Born-Anybody3244 t1_j2cqamf wrote

So your taste is rape? Is that what you mean, cause...yikes

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SerBronn7 t1_j2fd434 wrote

Why is it worse for HBO to depict a rape scene than one where someone is flayed or eaten alive by dogs or burnt at the stake?

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Born-Anybody3244 t1_j2fofns wrote

How many people do you know who have been flayed alive?

Okay now how many people do you personally know who have been raped or sexually assaulted? I promise you it's a non-zero number even if they haven't trusted you enough to tell you about it.

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MelbaTotes t1_j2d33yh wrote

This is why I'm so glad I picked up Steven Brust's Dragaera series when I was a kid. No explicit sex scenes, women are respected, and the one scene where a threat of sexual violence is very lightly implied, everyone else is disgusted by it. The world building misses nothing from not having breasts described in great detail.

Brust is getting near the end of the series now (began in the 80s and the early books still hold up) and the next book is coming out in April.

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Overtaker40 t1_j2c5sgm wrote

The trope is a problem only if it's overused and traditionally it has been. I'm not trying to defend it only the witcher books.

The witcher books are artfully written and yes there are many times where they are very dark including themes of sexual assault. They are however not exploitative or used for the gratification of the author or reader.

No, they are not for everyone but in this case they suit the dichotomy of the world and show the journeys that Geralt, Yen and Ciri went through to become a family.

Don't project your personal dislike of something across an entire genre, that's pretentious.

The writing world is changing and Authors like Brandon sanderson can imply sexual assault exists without actually talking about it, this is becoming more common as are world's that it doesn't happen at all. I like this but nor do I think SA should disappear from the genre entirely.

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LittleRadishes t1_j2bmmnc wrote

Using sexual assault against women to show a fantasy world is shitty kind of feels like the equivalent of being like "the villain was so bad, he was a really bad guy, he was so bad he was like Hitler!" It's just lazy writing.

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elvis_wants_a_cookie t1_j2b6983 wrote

I stopped at the second book, I just couldn't do it any more. I was so disappointed.

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IAmPaused t1_j28v98o wrote

Yes. I read the three of them but took the rest of his of my wishlist midway through the second. No woman is spared and it got worse and worse. And worse.

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jeff25624 t1_j2a7wqa wrote

I’m actually literally at the same point you are in reading the Cartel trilogy, and I think I’d respectfully disagree. There haven’t been many characters at all this far who haven’t met with a grisly fate; when talking about the Drug cartels I feel that’s probably pretty accurate.

HOWEVER, I’d go so far as to say his characters are all pretty thin archetypes in general. I’ve been reminded of reading a high fantasy type novel: the plot is the main driver of the narrative. But despite the faults, I’ve found them very very readable and propulsive.

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LeonardCrabs t1_j2aamu5 wrote

Maybe I'm just oblivious, but I never noticed it being excessive. And the female characters, even if there is a little cringe sexualization, are still well developed and realistic.

I'd take that any day over the Patrick Rothfuss "feeble female who can't do anything for herself and must be saved by a knight in shining armor" approach.

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Skeegle04 t1_j2aegtm wrote

Only read the first king killer book but god damn, Denna and Kvothe’s lack of a human relationship was just frustrating. “She’s nowhere to be found” after he sees her for the fortieth time. She all but tells him she’s in love with him “does she like me?!” Didn’t read the other two.

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astonaidan t1_j2as80y wrote

Rothfuss getting cut a lot this week in here lol

&#x200B;

Deservedly its just funny

1

VivereIntrepidus t1_j2ae3pb wrote

yeah this is many male writers / creators. I've begun to feel that my early understanding of how stories are supposed to go was really influenced by like 10,000 holywood perverts. so many movies / shows with random nudity / sexualization of women, women as prizes, etc. how many movies have you seen where the male hero beds the girl about 80% of the movie before movie's finale.

I think our kids are going to watch old hbo shows and say, "what the fuck were you guys thinking?"

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Different-Owl-9023 t1_j2aspwn wrote

This is a ridiculous take and I honestly think you posted it for the paint by numbers comments it produced. Prime Reddit for sure. The characters you reference ARE defined by the sexual transgressions forced onto their life, just as the men are forced into various states of violence, as victim or perpetrators. He's painting a violent ugly world bc - news flash - drug lords aren't gentle.

So you find the depiction of a female prisoner forced into prostitution reprehensible, but you make no mention of the man slowly burned to death by the cartel, or the reporter tortured to death by a childhood friend on orders of the same cartel? What's wrong with you?

Not to mention the hero of one of the Cartel trilogy is a female reporter. Failed to mention that I noticed.

Winslow is great. Your opinion, alas, is not.

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hammnbubbly OP t1_j2ax4m4 wrote

K

Edit: Also, while there are many characters across the sprawling saga, I’d say that Art Keller is actually the “main” character.

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Different-Owl-9023 t1_j2bjx42 wrote

Not sure why you put main in quotes. I said the hero of the second book, not the main character. Perhaps I was too harsh, and comprehension skills are to blame for your incorrect opinion.

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Nose-Nuggets t1_j2bytfn wrote

The only fleshed out argument in here for you to discuss with and this is your reply? Was the goal to read a bunch of replies all agreeing with you?

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hammnbubbly OP t1_j2c355p wrote

“Fleshed out argument” = personal insults over an opinion. Not exactly worth my time in responding.

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IDontEvenCareBear t1_j29vibp wrote

If you don’t already have the other book, just get it in a thrift shop. Avoid the money going into his pocket.

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CitizenNaab t1_j2adkep wrote

This is why I had to stop reading his books. Every time a woman is mentioned he’s talking about sex

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allmilhouse t1_j2am78e wrote

I've only read The Power of the Dog, but it's surprising to me that this it what would be too much for you. That book had some of the most shockingly violent acts I've read >!like murdering children by tossing them off a bridge!<.

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DokZayas t1_j2apxjk wrote

The Power of the Dog is written by a different author.

Edit: Yes, I've been corrected.

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allmilhouse t1_j2ar717 wrote

It's written by Don Winslow.

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DokZayas t1_j2arfv7 wrote

Entirely my bad. I was only ever familiar with the one by Thomas Savage.

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JennaLS t1_j2c4j79 wrote

Larry Kniven is another one. The Hugo award winning Ringworld was a difficult read for the same reason. Whenever a female character made an appearance my eye roll got more and more pronounced

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jamibuch t1_j2biwzt wrote

He blocked me on Twitter for asking if he was okay after his 103937372991937292 rant about trump never being indicted. 😂

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El_Coloso t1_j2bkeeh wrote

I don't understand all the praise for Winslow, especially the Cartel series. I think it's lazy writing at best. Just my opinion, happy new year.

3

BigMartinJol t1_j2bpcbu wrote

ITT: people who have never actually read Don Winslow

3

whipfinish t1_j2c6xfn wrote

I think I know some of the Cartel characters you are referring to. Totally agree. I was listening to it on a long dull night drive and I had to turn it off. Boring empty highway was preferable to another interchangeable set of meat puppets.

I think he does this to other sets of characters too, not just women (though women are the most egregious). He just doesn't know when to quit. Taken one at a time, his characters are good, but they come in squads and platoons. Then you devote all this energy to booking them in and they don't do anything. I want my characters to move forward and do things. But he just can't stop tangenting them and establishing every freaking little detail. Don, if you're listening--you're wearing us out. Six characters, one para of backstory. Spinning out interesting characters isn't enough. If you want to give us a new one, you have to kill one of the old ones.

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endersgame69 t1_j2blf5y wrote

I'm not familiar with the series. That's not my usual genre though, so no surprise there. Some authors tend to stick to the conventions of the genre they're writing for though, because that's what their readers expect.

Could that be the case? Or is this guy just a thirsty perv who takes it out of his pants to put it on the page?

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adorsai t1_j2d6mqw wrote

Some writers tend to fall into a rut and end up using the same scenario over and over.

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epicenejunkie t1_j2a4hjt wrote

I loved 'The Force' and felt like his female characters were a bit more fleshed out in that book. It did include some gratuitous sex scenes, though. I read it a while back and can't remember if they were fetishize-y. . but it's about a corrupt cop so, they might've been. I'm guessing, from the character's POV it somehow ties into the plot. .?? The book made me uncomfortable for a handful of reasons but I didn't know this was a pattern of his. I enjoyed his content, what a shame :/

1

Nizamark t1_j2ag29z wrote

also he writes atrocious dialogue

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mtempissmith t1_j2ao1dw wrote

If this is the same guy and I think it is, Don Winslow started by writing erotica for various publishers like Blue Moon. A lot of Victorian themed bondage stuff, so it's not too surprising that even in the more legit fiction written of late the writing of female characters leans that way. The Ironwood series in particular is pretty much the same stuff only way more explicit.

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kafkadre t1_j2apqz5 wrote

I read the first chapter of The Force, and have never nor will ever read another word written by Don Winslow.

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Fat_Goofball t1_j2b9z95 wrote

Have only read the power of the dog but here’s hoping Barrera’s deformed daughter gets her time to shine ? Kiddingggg

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Upton_Sinclair_Lewis t1_j2cc0fv wrote

Is Satori good? I read somewhere that it's based in part on Shibumi by Trevanian.

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WhatTheHosenHey t1_j2elpmz wrote

Cartel is a soap opera with beheadings. Two of the women had sexual knowledge that drove men crazy. Oh vey.

0

Empigee t1_j2bszb0 wrote

To me, this attitude is the opposite side of the same coin as my teachers in parochial school back in the day condemning books, movies, and music they considered too sexual. The horseshoe theory in action!

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Anathos117 t1_j2a5vxy wrote

> But, I’m starting to think Winslow is a creep who sees women, especially Mexican women, as pieces of meat.

Definitely sounds like he's as bad as that famous pedophile Nabokov.

Or maybe it's possible for authors to write about things without it being an indication of their personal character.

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