Comments
crusoe t1_isyp767 wrote
https://beelitenutrition.com/2016/04/protein-bioavailability-what-you-should-know/
Marginally lower than beef. Not gonna matter unless you're preparing for a body building competition.
PlaneReaction8700 t1_isysuir wrote
There is nothing wrong with eating soy, and studies show vegetarians and vegans on average have higher testosterone levels than omnivores, not less. There is no downside to consuming soy, and huge benefits.
GladstoneBrookes t1_isytv8e wrote
> Regardless of the statistical model, no significant effects of soy protein or isoflavone intake on any of the outcomes measured were found. Sub-analysis of the data according to isoflavone dose and study duration also showed no effect. This updated and expanded meta-analysis indicates that regardless of dose and study duration, neither soy protein nor isoflavone exposure affects TT [total testosterone], FT [free testosterone], E2 [estradiol], or E1 [estrone] levels in men.
Alive_Technician_330 t1_isyv7tp wrote
>and studies show vegetarians and vegans on average have higher testosterone levels than omnivores, not less.
No they dont
mrrobc97 t1_isyw2rs wrote
Doesn't necessarily has to be a bodybuilding competition. If you're over 45 (like me) and working out to keep a good amount of muscle tone then animal protein will be the better option.
uninstallIE t1_isywe8o wrote
Phytoestrogens in soy are actually beneficial to both men and women. They are far less potent than the mammalian estrogens already in your body, and bind to the same receptors. This reduces the incidence of estrogen dependent cancers. It doesn't cause men to grow breasts. This is a weird scaremongering tactic not backed up by any science
uninstallIE t1_isywg9i wrote
You're in the wrong place, we can all read scientific studies here
Zren8989 t1_isyx33r wrote
It's 98% the same, unless you have a VERY specific reason for not eating soy it's literally fine.
Tazingpelb t1_isyxync wrote
*sad trans noises*
uninstallIE t1_isyy9q5 wrote
Even strength focused athletes seem to be doing just fine on vegan diets. In fact, studies are indicating they're doing equal to or better.
>Powerlifting is a weight-class strength sport where achieving low fat mass (FM) and high fat-free mass (FFM) is desirable to improve performance. Recent studies have evaluated the nutritional considerations of different eating patterns, such as vegan diets (VD), in athlete populations. VD are a challenge for athletes who want to attain body composition changes. The aim of this case study is to report on the body composition changes and subjective feelings of a male professional vegan powerlifter following VD for six weeks. The body mass of the powerlifter decreased from 79.3 to 77.4 kg (2.39%). Along with this, FM decreased from 15.0 to 11.4 kg (24%). Conversely, FFM increased from 64.3 to 66.0 kg (2.64%). Moreover, the powerlifter communicated no subjective feelings of low energy availability during training sessions. The VD might compromise adherence in a nutritional intervention which aims to improve body composition due to the nutritional requirements for fat loss. Therefore, more appropriate health assessments, including blood and psychological tests, are required for professional athletes. This short-term VD intervention was satisfactory for improving body composition and no adverse outcomes were reported.
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/10/23/8675
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>This study examined the effects of whey and pea protein supplementation on physiological adaptations following 8-weeks of high-intensity functional training (HIFT). Fifteen HIFT men (n = 8; 38.6 ± 12.7 y, 1.8 ± 0.1 m, 87.7 ± 15.8 kg) and women (n = 7; 38.9 ± 10.9 y, 1.7 ± 0.10 m, 73.3 ± 10.5 kg) participated in this study. Participants completed an 8-week HIFT program consisting of 4 training sessions per week. Participants consumed 24 g of either whey (n = 8) or pea (n = 7) protein before and after exercise on training days, and in-between meals on non-training days. Before and after training, participants underwent ultrasonography muscle thickness measurement, bioelectrical impedance analysis (BIA), two benchmark WODs (workout of the day), 1-Repetition Maximum (1RM) squat and deadlift testing, and Isometric Mid-thigh Pull (IMTP) performance. Separate analyses of covariance (ANCOVA) were performed on all measures collected at POST. Both groups experienced increased strength for 1RM back squat (p = 0.006) and deadlift (p = 0.008). No training effect (p > 0.05) was found for body composition, muscle thickness, IMTP peak force, IMTP rate of force development, or performance in either WOD. Using PRE values as the covariate, there were no group differences for any measured variable. We conclude that ingestion of whey and pea protein produce similar outcomes in measurements of body composition, muscle thickness, force production, WOD performance and strength following 8-weeks of HIFT. View Full-Text
https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4663/7/1/12
>The vegan diet is becoming more and more popular among athletes, including professional ones. As the research and literature review described above show, it has a beneficial effect on many aspects of health. Also, many world-famous athletes admit its beneficial influence on the achieved results. However, as research shows, there are no significant differences in strength, anaerobicor aerobic strength, or endurance. A greater increase in performance after creatine loading was observed in activities based on the adenosine triphosphate / phosphocreatine system. This is explained by the lower starting concentration of creatine in vegans. Although much work has been done and much research has been done comparing vegan athletes to people who eat animal products, the differences in performance and strength remain an area of interest
https://apcz.umk.pl/JEHS/article/view/JEHS.2020.10.07.023/26142
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At your age you should be more concerned with the risks of heart disease, diabetes, and cancers. All of which are worsened under a high meat diet.
[deleted] t1_isyyplj wrote
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GladstoneBrookes t1_isyz277 wrote
Plus, when you compare matched-protein vegan and omnivorous diets (with soy protein or whey protein supplementation respectively), the changes in muscle strength and mass following an exercise intervention are the same, at least in young men.
> A high-protein (~ 1.6 g kg−1 day−1), exclusively plant-based diet (plant-based whole foods + soy protein isolate supplementation) is not different than a protein-matched mixed diet (mixed whole foods + whey protein supplementation) in supporting muscle strength and mass accrual, suggesting that protein source does not affect resistance training-induced adaptations in untrained young men consuming adequate amounts of protein.
PlaneReaction8700 t1_isyzn31 wrote
Actually, it's better to get plant based proteins at all stages of life. And as you get older, your risk from cardiovascular diseases increases, which can be dramatically lowered by eating plant based. There is no known limit between increasing plant food and increased health benefits.
[deleted] t1_isz010o wrote
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GladstoneBrookes t1_isz055d wrote
This is the only study I can recall specifically comparing vegans and omnivores:
> Vegans had higher testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat-eaters, but this was offset by higher sex hormone binding globulin, and there were no differences between diet groups in free testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide or luteinizing hormone.
Key_Guide8475 t1_isz1bpy wrote
I love soy, especially grown in an old patch of ground where there used to be pristine rainforest. I also love monoculture.
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zbbrox t1_isz5dq8 wrote
I mean, if you're using soy as an alternative to meat, that's straightforwardly good for the rainforests...
GladstoneBrookes t1_isz7q30 wrote
The leading driver of deforestation in both the Amazon and in general for tropical forests is beef, while 77% of soy is used as animal feed to the extent that, in the EU for example, it takes between 1 and 2 kilograms of soy protein to produce a kilogram of edible protein from beef, dairy, pork, or poultry. In other words, replacing all the meat people consume with soy products would reduce total soy consumption, and that's before you consider the other human-edible feed crops involved in livestock production and that other non-soy meat alternatives exist.
Soy consumed directly by humans is not the problem here; soy used as feed is.
realJanetSnakehole t1_isz975c wrote
Too bad many people have a slight soy allergy without realizing it.
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L7Death t1_iszfd8b wrote
That's a lot of protein!
Various studies have shown high-quality protein like whey maxes out MPS at a mere 20g in healthy young men. That's equivalent to about 3 large whole chicken eggs, including the yolk as it contains half of the aminos.
Whole eggs beat egg whites: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30133322/
Soy takes nearly twice that amount in some studies. Although if you mix plant proteins to get a better complete (aminos) protein then 30g of blended (one study used wheat, corn and pea protein isolates) isolated plant proteins can match 20g of isolated whey.
Whey also promotes prolonged post-exercise phosphorylation vs soy (4 vs 2 hours): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4324640/
You're link is looking at a fairly high protein intake(like 25 percent). So MPS is going to be maxed either way. With only high-quality animal proteins we can likely get the same results with 10 percent protein, and avoid the extra oxidation and urea production from excessive protein consumption.
glichez t1_iszienk wrote
then you should really avoid beer. soy isn't the issue.
glichez t1_iszip4w wrote
its been a real hoot listening to all the idiots whine about "soy boys" while they all go out and drink....
razor_sharp_pivots t1_iszk1f5 wrote
Well, most of us can.
LatterSea t1_iszkrtg wrote
Hopefully you realize the vast majority of soy (and corn) monocropping is to feed livestock?
LatterSea t1_iszldv9 wrote
Also dairy products, as consumption has shown to increase estradiol, a female hormone, in men.
radant25116 t1_iszmng2 wrote
Yeah they do and much more than carnivores who have the average test levels of an elderly woman
Darwins_Dog t1_iszsjpe wrote
How is that different from other foods? I have a slight onion allergy that I didn't realize until recently.
realJanetSnakehole t1_iszsqmi wrote
I was just making conversation? I'm sorry if that's not allowed in this sub
Darwins_Dog t1_iszth3v wrote
I expect this level of nonsense in the vegan vs. omnivore diet threads, but this is just saying that soy is a good source of protein. It's like even the slightest acknowledgement that plant based diets are fine is somehow a threat.
deathhead_68 t1_iszttsd wrote
I'm kind of glad we get ill-informed comments like his, so we get ones like these to correct them.
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atacapacheco t1_iszxg81 wrote
What was the name of David Wallace’s company after he left dunder mifflin, the one with his son
State_Dear t1_iszxnn7 wrote
EVER NOTICE counter arguments by the Trolls NEVER involve verified scientific studies. It's always knuckle dragging and misrepresentation
minirlz t1_iszzm27 wrote
Why aren't you responding to the studies presented? You are speaking with such confidence here, surely you must know something?
Weird.
No-Contribution-7871 t1_it032lg wrote
that is because it is a threat to their identity.
PotsAndPandas t1_it03rma wrote
And how are they not making conversation back? Sounds like you've come here looking to be offended
Darwins_Dog t1_it03yex wrote
Apologies, I misread your comment. There's a weird anti-vegan group in this sub that show up to try to demonize plant based diets (they've been in this thread already). Soy is a favorite target.
realJanetSnakehole t1_it08civ wrote
No problem, I apologize too, I wasn't intending to start a fight haha. I used to be vegetarian until I developed food sensitivities to basically everything, and I've bounced around in both the vegan and anti-vegan subs trying to dig up clues about the optimal diet for me. I've seen the arguments about soy from both sides and I know how inflammatory the debate can get. My personal experience is that I have reactions to eating even small amounts of soy, which takes that away as a protein option. I learned from my doctor that soy sensitivity is more common than people think saved often gets missed because there's soy oil in basically every processed food in the US, and people don't think of food that's supposed to be healthy like soy as something that could be causing their symptoms.
LowestKey t1_it09c31 wrote
[Citation Needed]
LenokanBuchanan t1_it09ken wrote
Can I ask what your symptoms are? Is tempeh an issue as well for you?
Androklesthe90 t1_it09xe6 wrote
So, no man titties? I prefer hemp hearts and pine nuts. And a steak.
Flowchart83 t1_it0aw32 wrote
If it wasn't allowed your comment wouldn't be here. You are completely allowed, you just don't like the reaction. Your comment, the reaction, and your dislike of the reaction are all allowed.
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realJanetSnakehole t1_it0biyv wrote
Always starts with foggy headedness, then cramping, then bloating and "bathroom problems" for the next day or so. If I keep eating things with soy regularly I get eczema on my hands. And I'm actually not sure if I've ever had tempeh!
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IPA___Fanatic t1_it0cdm2 wrote
They actually do. I know it hurts to be wrong sometimes.
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QTheStrongestAvenger t1_it0m5fc wrote
I've tried sharing this study. They don't care.
Edgeyville t1_it0ptty wrote
backed by soience but not by the bodies of those who consume soy. LOOOL.
LenokanBuchanan t1_it0t83g wrote
Interesting! I frequently have foggy headed mess and I seem to get GI issues flaring up every time I go on a run. I’ve always thought the foggy head was from my medication, but I am vegan so I eat a lot of soy products. So this whole thing just has me wondering…
I ask about tempeh because it’s fermented soy, which many people report does not cause any of the intolerance reactions of regular soy. It would be interesting to compare the two.
VeganSinnerVeganSain t1_it0tqpw wrote
out of curiosity, do you have this same reaction with other legumes or beans - or peas or split peas?
any peanut allergies?
seriously asking.
on another note:
the main reason these studies are even done (like the one in this review) is because so many anti-vegans think vegans don't get enough protein (which is very ignorant, on so many levels).
they also like to use terms like "soy boy" as a derogatory quip - which is also very ignorant, because the reasons they use that as a taunt has been proven wrong and can easily be countered with facts.
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izcenine t1_it0zw8q wrote
Show your work you sack of meat
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crusoe t1_it12zao wrote
The biggest protein negative is red meat ( pork is considered red meat ) as it's inflammatory. The same isnt true of fish or poultry. Of course farming these has their own issues as well.
You can buy whey protein produced by modified bacteria now
borntorunathon t1_it18y3m wrote
Same people that can’t understand that a vaccine can have dangerous sounding ingredients but be safe once the ingredients are combined.
selltheworld t1_it19rm0 wrote
Some people try to validate their own position by attacking another position.
Like trying to prove that god is real by attacking evolution.
Problem is that its possible that both a meat diet and a plant diet is suitable for humans. Or that evolution and god is true.
MarvinLazer t1_it1a6ov wrote
Alcohol also increases cortisol levels over time, though, and anyone stupid enough to unironically use the term "soy boy" is probably also stupid enough to conflate anger, stress, and premature aging with masculinity.
EvoEpitaph t1_it1f7n3 wrote
Well excuse me if I just enjoy your guys's company.
^(I'm not actually mad.)
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PlaneReaction8700 t1_it1s9kl wrote
Less than 1% of people have a soy allergy
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BruceIsLoose t1_it1x5yk wrote
Right?! Dairy has literal mammalian estrogen in it.
BruceIsLoose t1_it1x7y1 wrote
/r/VeganFitness is in shambles right now.
Fabulous_Archer4999 t1_it1x8p5 wrote
Alcohol in diet is suitable for humans but that doesn't mean we shouldn't mention how unhealthy and harmful alcohol is. Same applies to meat. There are significant downsides to meat consumption.
Fabulous_Archer4999 t1_it1xcoh wrote
How did you figure out the allergy?
Fabulous_Archer4999 t1_it1xdum wrote
How would you be able to find out if you're allergic to soy if you don't notice it?
Fabulous_Archer4999 t1_it1xqao wrote
If you don't care about your long term health judging by the fact how you want to consume eggs, you should just start taking roids. Way less hassle, way less suffering, way more muscle, and possibly a healthier body too, unless you overdo the drugs.
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cammmmmmmmmmmmmmmm t1_it1zdy1 wrote
The loudest and most confident are generally the ones who have no idea what they're talking about. I'm often amazed how they've managed to stay alive sometimes, you do have to give them credit where its due
cammmmmmmmmmmmmmmm t1_it1zm9t wrote
I'm a soy boy and my body is a sculpted masterpiece
selltheworld t1_it1zvv2 wrote
Thats not the point Im making. Im saying that you cant validate your own diet by attacking another.
Fabulous_Archer4999 t1_it21hto wrote
You make no sense and you're incorrect. Unhealthy diets exist.
selltheworld t1_it21r2m wrote
The reason I make no sense to you is because you are trying to force your nonsense on me.
I didnt say unhealthy diets dont exist.
Organic_Strategy05 t1_it23iph wrote
May be high protein but my concern would still be its excitotoxicity effects on the brain. Dr. Russell Blaylock has a book about it.
misandristkimwexler t1_it2629m wrote
And there's downsides to a vegan diet. Many people can't adopt one for a variety of reasons.
Meat isn't bad, it can be part of a healthy diet.
Darwins_Dog t1_it26a00 wrote
Basically it got worse. I started getting what felt like sores in my mouth eating certain foods so I started paying close attention to ingredients. Eventually I found raw green onions were causing it and the internet filled in the rest. Any raw alium will set it off but cooked is fine.
Darwins_Dog t1_it26ort wrote
And if you eat an unhealthy diet, attacking a different diet won't make it better. That's the point they were making.
Fabulous_Archer4999 t1_it29w99 wrote
That's a completely illogical statement. Literally nobody has implied otherwise.
reyntime t1_it2a3qv wrote
Not to mention that cow's milk contains literal estrogens. Yet people are worried about phytoestrogens in soy, go figure.
Fabulous_Archer4999 t1_it2ac0p wrote
>And there's downsides to a vegan diet.
False
>Many people can't adopt one for a variety of reasons.
False. Less than 1% of people would have long term difficulties, and vast majority of cases can be fixed. So we're looking at a ridiculously low % of people. There hasn't been a documented person who is completely unable to handle any vegan foods.
>Meat isn't bad,
False
> it can be part of a healthy diet.
So can tobacco, alcohol and cocaine.
[deleted] t1_it2ajkj wrote
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uninstallIE t1_it2cmaj wrote
Ain't that the truth! I once had to explain to my father that elemental lithium in the water and lithium citrate the anti psychotic medication are not the same thing
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nulliusansverba t1_it2jn6n wrote
4 out of 5 blue zones drink booze basically daily.
nulliusansverba t1_it2jw3c wrote
You must be fun at parties.
bigtimephonk t1_it2k5rj wrote
fiber makes my tummy hurt :(:(:(
gotta kill animals
nulliusansverba t1_it2kdit wrote
Who cares?
Looks like a red herring, sounds like a red herring, of course it's a red herring.
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nulliusansverba t1_it2kr34 wrote
Yea? Imagine that. Onions don't want us to eat them. That pungent flavor only comes about when the flesh is damaged.
TheRightening t1_it2ktjb wrote
As someone that does strong man lifting, I have to be conscious of my testosterone levels and soy threatens that. Soy is a great source of protein for women.
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nulliusansverba t1_it2r1bz wrote
That's called a false equivalence.
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PyramidBusiness t1_it2ruh9 wrote
The midwest was in fact plains and not a rainforest although Ohio and part of Indiana is naturally a swamp.
PyramidBusiness t1_it2rz89 wrote
People still eat foods with common allergies like celery and peanut butter
Darwins_Dog t1_it2td4u wrote
Then the compounds that make the flavor and odor trigger my immune system and cause inflammation and irritation in my mouth.
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King-Of-Rats t1_it2ture wrote
Watch out, the random dozen or so Meat Lobbyist accounts that patrol these subreddits won’t like this.
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(Seriously. It sounds silly - but the Meat Industry has HUGE lobbying and endowments to universities to exert pressure. And they post here a lot!)
jack1176 t1_it2udci wrote
TIL "literally nobody" is synonymous with a large proportion of people.
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Disastrous-Cow-7197 t1_it38yom wrote
Soy lowering testosterone has been debunked over and over again.
LyLyV t1_it3b89d wrote
There really is nothing "suitable" about ingesting alcohol. It's a literal poison. No judgement to be people who choose to put it in their bodies, but let's at least be clear about what it is.
Guilty_Injury_2200 t1_it3ds0s wrote
In my personal opinion- just get off the empty calories and eat the veggies and s daily fruit, for most of us in this country that is similar to climbing Mount Everest ???
grandlewis OP t1_it3dtqc wrote
Hey, I mean here is a full study on the topic, but poppwaldo says animal protein is better, with no evidence. So we better all run away from soy.
Fabulous_Archer4999 t1_it3enua wrote
Alcohol and meat are healthier than cigarettes, therefore alcohol and meat are healthy.
OR
They're all proven to be unhealthy, therefore they do not belong to a healthy diet.
sdomtihstae t1_it3j08t wrote
> Soy is a great source of protein for women.
I enjoy how you lay out for all to ponder in an open reasoned scientific dialogue. Nice!
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mrrobc97 t1_it3q8d3 wrote
This is great information! Thank you very much for posting it.
18Apollo18 t1_it43nj8 wrote
That doesn't mean it's the alcohol causing the longevity.
uninstallIE t1_it47ygn wrote
Happy to help!
18Apollo18 t1_it48my9 wrote
Data shows that vegan men have just as high if not higher testosterone levels while simultaneously having a low risk for prostate cancer
18Apollo18 t1_it4ab27 wrote
There actually are several adverse effects associated with certain ingredients in vaccines, such as Thinersol.
Vaccines can also be easily made without these ingredients so there's really no need in the first place.
nulliusansverba t1_it4apms wrote
Actually, studies show that moderate consumption of alcohol is beneficial. Inverted U-curve.
18Apollo18 t1_it4m3dj wrote
The U shaped curve, ie reduction of mortality in light to moderate drinkers, is only found in study's which lump livelong abstainers, ex drinkers, ex binge drinkers, elderly ex drinkers and sick ex drinkers all into one category.
But when you control for these factors the curve disappears.
Many studies have same thing with smoking. For example, one study found that quiting smoking at 30 was associated with higher rates of early mortality than quitting at 50.
Does that mean smoking longer is beneficial? Of course not. The most probable justification for these results is simply that those quiting at age 30 were much more likely to be previous chainsmokers and/or have had some heath problem causing them to quit so much early
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TheRightening t1_it5mvw3 wrote
I'm not trying to have a debate with people to lazy to do their own research.
TheRightening t1_it5nxjp wrote
Vegan men, carnivorous men, pescatarian men that eat soy have higher levels of serum estrogen than those that avoid it altogether. https://www.montana.edu/hhd/graduate/dietetics/blog_posts/Soy_hormonal_health.html
18Apollo18 t1_it6bk86 wrote
The study referenced literally found reduced estrogen levels in the soy milk group.
Estrone concentration tended to decrease in the soymilk-supplemented group [regression parameter β (SE) = −0.003352 (0.00226)] and increase in the control group [β (SE) = 0.003228 (0.00223)] over the study period. None of the other hormones measured showed any statistical difference in changing patterns between the two groups.
Nagata, , Takatsuka, N., Shimizu, H. The effect of soymilk consumption on serum estrogen and androgen concentrations in Japanese men. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers. March 1, 2001 10(3) 179-184.
TheRightening t1_it7t9lk wrote
Estrone and Serum Estrogen are not the same thing. The confirmation bias is cute though.
18Apollo18 t1_it83idi wrote
>Ain't that the truth! I once had to explain to my father that elemental lithium in the water and lithium citrate the anti psychotic medication are not the same thing
Elemental lithium doesn't even naturally occur on Earth at all. Let alone in the water supply.
And I'm not sure why you're saying the lithium salts in water/food are different from those in medications.
The World Health Organization recognizes lithium as a nutritionally essential trace element which can be safely consumed through drinking water, plant-based foods, or very low-dose supplementation.
Naturally occurring lithium in water supplies is associated with low levels of suicide.
If you're referring to intoxication that can happen when there's high concentrations of lithium salts in water supplies and trying to suggest that that doesn't happen with medications then that's it correct either.
Lithium salts are used mainly for acute mania and prophylaxis of recurrent bipolar and unipolar affective disorders. Toxicity may occur either during maintenance therapy or following acute intoxication. Lithium salts may cause hypothyroidism, which may aggravate the ataxia. Acute intoxication may affect the cardiovascular, renal, and/or nervous system. The spectrum of neurological deficits is broad: coma, seizures, coarse tremor, hypokinesia, rigidity, hyperreflexia
18Apollo18 t1_it8489j wrote
>Estrone and Serum Estrogen are not the same thing
Are you missing the part where they said no difference was found in any other hormones measured??
Also estrone is one of the 3 types of estrogen commonly tested in the blood
There are many types of estrogen, but only three types are commonly tested: Estrone, Estradiol, and Estriol
https://medlineplus.gov/lab-tests/estrogen-levels-test/
>The confirmation bias is cute though.
How the hell is it conformation bias? That's literally the study cited by the source you sent to me
[deleted] t1_it96woo wrote
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nulliusansverba t1_itcg6p3 wrote
I think you've been reading too many studies without practicing discernment.
You realize like half of studies have fundamental errors and that makes the conclusions meaningless, right?
Look at some higher quality studies.
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