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ezra_sinclair t1_j1en4h7 wrote

According to behavioral biologist Robert Sapolsky, testosterone levels between men aren't well correlated to any particular behavior (aggression, sex-drive,etc) with the exception of status seeking behavior, which will manifest in a culture and individual specific context. Give a bunch of Buddhist monks testosterone and you don't see increased aggression or deeper struggles with vows of chastity, you see more giving, more prayer, more studying, etc. This is just to say that generosity, which is to be encouraged almost regardless of how the individual performing it conceptualizes it internally, can be a status seeking behavior and so because narcissistic individuals have an abnormal conceptualization of their status we can speculate that their response to anything which elicits status seeking behavior is likely to also be abnormal.

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Jackers83 t1_j1fmzl1 wrote

This is extremely fascinating to me. As someone with low levels of testosterone, it’s interesting how interconnected individual components of our body interact. I’m trying to understand this topic as of late.

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standarduser2 t1_j1fsh97 wrote

Link for the Monks on steroids?

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ezra_sinclair t1_j1g2s7d wrote

Sapolsky used that specific language either in his Standford lectures (which are on YouTube) or in his book Behave: The Biology of Humans At Our Best and Worst. I would highly recommend both. Whether he was sighting a study or merely offering a hypothetical that he felt sufficiently confident in, I don't recall, but I trust his expertise and would encourage others to expose themselves to his work to determine their own opinions on the credibility of the viewpoint I've offered.

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seemsprettylegit t1_j1hfaw9 wrote

The article posted here is saying that narcissists tend to be less generous though.

“One (perhaps somewhat funny) takeaway message from our study would be: if you are choosing a date, beware of highly narcissistic men who are simultaneously low on baseline testosterone – in our studies, they were the least generous (and most selfish) in their decisions,” Czarna added. “They shared the least resources with others. So, when going on a date with one of them – prepare to pick up the bill. Meanwhile, men who were low on both narcissism and testosterone were highly generous.”

And agreed it also doesn’t establish how testosterone plays any role in this either, seeing as how both measurements kept the same level of testosterone and only adjusted for the level of narcissism (how do you even measure that conclusively). This is a really shoddy pseudoscientific study that just screams confirmation bias. No idea why they even included testosterone in the discussion when they didn’t identify any correlation.

On a side note, the “prepare to pick up the bill” remark is just kind of a gross and manipulative sounding characterization of what they are trying to say.

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Heru-Wath t1_j1i4jx2 wrote

I have a takeaway message without any study. "If you are going on a date, be always prepared to pay".

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YungxHatori24 t1_j1hjsbt wrote

I’m trans and I take testosterone. I’ve definitely felt a difference in how I react to situations. I used to have more melancholic reactions and since my first testosterone intake I don’t cry for the same things and I feel strong emotions in my fists instead. I’m not the only trans person with this analogy. I wonder if it’s only people who take testosterone on regular basis ?

I want to add more: I don’t know if this is with age or hormones but in my upbringing my mom tackles life with emotions and my dad with logic and I take from both and since the testosterone I deal with problems more on a logical level but it tends to not let me feel fully my emotions hence the aggression and ticking bomb reactions.

I think no matter your hormone levels everyone can achieve a good balance of tackling problems with sensitivity and logic. Reading on philosophy has helped me tremendously. Especially Stoicism as it teaches you to feel and acknowledge your emotions so you don’t suppress them and later become a mess of a person and shut off to others’ feelings and emotions and to react with logic (to find a ground that will benefit you AND others) so you don’t haste yourself into a mistake ex: feeling mad and taking it out on someone

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anonasshole56435788 t1_j1iw49y wrote

I was actually wondering this from the POV of a trans person taking T. Thank you so much for sharing this is super interesting. Do you find your emotions are stronger but more easy to control, or the opposite?

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XDreamer1008 t1_j1jet6e wrote

After I started taking E + finasteride (a DHT blocker) my E & T levels both went super-high for a while. This coincided with a phase of obsessively trying to acquire Reddit karma...which may now be explained.

My T is now somewhat lower and I'm much less bothered about status. I'll keep this in mind...

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YungxHatori24 t1_j1l1zxp wrote

From my experience it all depends on your own personal experience/life, there’s a lot of nuances, for example I’m in a relationship/environment that stresses me out a lot and I don’t have much time anymore that I give to myself on self reflection, I’ve repressed a lot of feelings etc, that’s why I’m saying I believe everyone can find a balance. But definitely since I’ve started T I feel a sense of panic? Like when I’m mad about something that is out of my control I just wanna lash out like it’s an all or nothing, I want to be petty and vengeful (I’ve punched out a hole in my bathroom not long ago) Another part of me after going through self reflection a few years ago believes it’s just a matter of changing your perspectives on things and allowing yourself to be sensitive, it takes a lot of work which I have difficulty going through again. When I feel a sense of panic it’s less crying and more agression but again it might just be repression and a lack of self acknowledgement?

Once my doctor prescribed me more dose than I was supposed to be receiving and the timeline fits With me feeling more balanced and confident but then again! I was single and feeling more confident!

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the1ine t1_j1i3v2t wrote

>The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart -- and through all human hearts.

~Alexandr Solzhenitsyn

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demproteinz t1_j1if4cl wrote

Can’t remember where I heard it, but someone said that testosterone “makes effort feel good”.

Jives with the monk analogy.

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madrolla t1_j1ieklk wrote

Well that’s not true, status seeking behavior is just being productive. It’s not always about status it’s about having energy to do things

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someting-simple t1_j1k1nt8 wrote

What if, when I'm giving gifts, I feel bad cuz I feel like I'm buying people with those.

Basically, I know it will affect positively (even if only slightly ) how much they like me...and it feels bad, which leads me to not give gifts so only the ones who like me for me will stay...so what's that? Did I go full circle?

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csdspartans7 t1_j1hpanb wrote

Might explain why men dominate both ends of the bell curve.

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Tarnac666 t1_j1ei6pv wrote

All I could think reading this was “I give the best gifts. Probably the best gifts this year, maybe the best gifts ever!”

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PrankstonHughes t1_j1fxdsb wrote

Grown men, strong men, came up to me with tears in their eyes...thanking me for those gifts I gave

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CP9ANZ t1_j1gy6ip wrote

The gifts I gave them, tremendous. Probably the best gifts they're ever seen, huge gifts, everyone got gifts. I actually invented gifts, I came up with the name for gifts, and the crazies on the left want to destroy gifts, they have a war on Xmas.

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ewedirtyh00r t1_j1h00ix wrote

Yes, but the question was 'how much does the average present cost?'

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someting-simple t1_j1k0vh7 wrote

How can you do a perfect Trump by writing, I swear I heard the voice.

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moofthedog t1_j1en7vu wrote

Nobody gives better gifts than me, and everybody says so!

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JohnFByers t1_j1eoxod wrote

People are amazed at how successful my gifts are!

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Jackers83 t1_j1fluri wrote

My gifts are huge. Probably the hugest gifts of all time.

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p00Pie_dingleBerry t1_j1fy11a wrote

I give the gift of the best gifts!

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Falcofury t1_j1fupqs wrote

What about “Listen here fat, let me set you straight. This uh, uh, um thingy isn't going anywhere. Back in my day we didn't call it corvette-91 whatever; we called it the "Shanghai Shivers". I used to know a guy, went by the name Cornflake Jackson. Ol' Cornflake used to play guitar down at the neighborhood pool hall.”

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chemistry_teacher t1_j1g5eiu wrote

You’re assuming high testosterone in the person who your quote represents.

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Ididnttrythisyet t1_j1gmsyq wrote

I'm not sure if my great gift giving talent is a result of generosity or effective money spending skills.

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Creative_Elk_4712 t1_j1lh80r wrote

You know gifts, I trust you, you definitely know the best gifts out there. You’re quite a stable gifter

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snash222 t1_j1eaqcq wrote

Isn’t generosity negatively correlated with narcissism? How did they find generous narcissists?

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n3w4cc01_1nt t1_j1el8b9 wrote

narcissistic generosity is viewed as an equation. they are always more concerned about what's the return rather than just doing the right thing because it's right.

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thebestoflimes t1_j1fneaf wrote

Big showy gift giving is a form of status.

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chevymonza t1_j1gkhtn wrote

The narcissist I used to have in my life was an aggressive gift-giver. I can look around this room and see a bunch of things they bought, but it was obnoxious- essentially taking over all the decor after a while bit by bit.

But of course you can't complain about "generous" gift-givers.

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SoFetchBetch t1_j1gmat3 wrote

Hmm… this is interesting to me. My mom is an aggressive gift giver but it’s because she’s a hoarder and when she goes hunting for new things at the thrift store or flea markets/yard sales she always finds stuff she wants to give me. It’s really frustrating tbh because I don’t want any more stuff but if I tell her that she gets sad. Difficult thing to manage.

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CyborgElephant t1_j1gsnpe wrote

Re-donate it, don’t feel obligated to keep things you have no need or want for.

From someone who’s parent is an extreme hoarder, it’s very easy to get roped into their madness. Learn to let go and don’t be afraid to offend, their pain is not your pain.

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AnneNonnyMouse t1_j1gtqhd wrote

Oof... this brought up a lot of memories about, my parents, my ex and his family. To this day I hate receiving gifts.

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chevymonza t1_j1kay05 wrote

Isn't it wacky?! I'm looking at a small pile of gifts from relatives in the corner, waiting for tomorrow. Sooo much STUFF in this house, I can't keep up- MIL is constantly offloading stuff she no longer wants on us, plus my mother's stuff after she went to a nursing home, cousins' stuff in the attic, it gets suffocating.

I go to thrift stores to drop stuff off at least every month, and we still have so much.

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funkygrrl t1_j1fvlbx wrote

I bet they invented "re-gifting".

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worldDev t1_j1gdomj wrote

People on a budget that get random thoughtless gifts on the holidays invented re-gifting. If something is not going to be used, I’m going to give it to someone that wants it so it doesn’t go to waste. I would hope if I miss the mark giving someone a gift they didn’t want that they can pass it on to someone. I would even go as far to say if you are offended when someone regifts your gift, you are narcissistically tying the gift to your own pride and ego.

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zapatocaviar t1_j1gg7h7 wrote

Yep. This. It’s the best form of recycling (reuse).

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KevinIsMyBFF t1_j1htgu7 wrote

>offended

Key word. Anyone can be hurt, no one wants to feel like they missed the mark with someone they are close to, but if you do it's ok, you can try again. No one said you can't gift to a loved one whenever :)

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funkygrrl t1_j1i5emx wrote

My wealthy grandfather's second wife was a notorious regifter. One Christmas she gave me a green camisole with a size C cup. I was 10 years old. That same Christmas, she gave my little brothers really thin beach towels and had forgotten to remove the $1 Kmart tags from them. So when I think regifter, I think of her...rich and selfish and cheap.

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Ragnarok314159 t1_j1f8b5d wrote

Narcissistic men are also very generous in order to try and get sex. Had several buddies like this before realizing how toxic of humans they are and parted ways.

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echk0w9 t1_j1j3ym0 wrote

The narc I know is generous in acts of service. Not because he cares about the people, because it yields him social currency. If he wants something from you, he’ll make an effort to look like he “has your back” and is “helpful” in whatever way suits him (not you.) this is all with the intention of some “return” and “how dare you not… bc I did … for you.” For ppl he “dates” it’s for sex. For his family it’s for money and an assumed inheritance. If you say “hey, you’re in town in two weeks, when you’re can you help me pick up a new tv? My car isn’t big enough.” You’ll get ghosted and gaslighted. However, if you mention you need to take your trash out, he’ll drive 90 min to “take your trash out and help you walk the dog” when you’re literally capable of doing both. And what does he expect? Absolute adoration and anything he suggests you should jump at and you should deny him nothing. If you do? How dare you! I drove 90 min to take out your trash and you can’t do xyz for me!”

In addition, he uses it to support his own belief that he is a “good person” and that it negates anything horrible he’s done in his life. If he’s done all of these things for others, he is clearly a good person despite also being a rapist and abuser.

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DopeDetective t1_j1elhmm wrote

a narcissist can be very kind & generous to the outside world. they can be the most helpful person in the room. they might even be deeply involved with volunteer work or the church.

it's all about building an image. but they're cruel to their own families behind doors. it also shields them if their victims ever come forward, no one really believes someone so nice could be so bad.

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drakens6 t1_j1et06i wrote

Not always, sometimes they keep it from even their families and reflect all of the cognitive dissonance inward, resulting in a "ticking time bomb" scenario

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tankyogremagi t1_j1f6zqi wrote

hey man, some of us reason ourselves through things and not become the unibomber. addressing oneselve's cognitive dissonance is almost required to learn how to change yourself. little by little.

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midri t1_j1glx9h wrote

It's so weird being a narcissist that believes deeply in the idea of socialism. The only people that really get the brunt (I'm neglectful to the point it's almost a defining trait...) of my narcism are my family members though, so sorta makes sense. So weird being narcissistic, but selfaware...

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danSTILLtheman t1_j1he4xv wrote

The only time a political view or ideology really makes someone seem like a generous person is if they’re comparing it to another less generous ideology. That’s usually in a conversation where a person can easily try to act like they’re taking the moral high ground. They could still be a huge asshole though

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Jackers83 t1_j1fm0r1 wrote

That’s an interesting way to put it. I would agree with you.

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Wingkirs t1_j1frijk wrote

Absolutely this. The love bombing before the rug gets pulled out from underneath you.

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mari815 t1_j1g9xgz wrote

A good indicator of a narcissist who is generous is if they don’t get the narcissistic supply they are being generous for…they will angrily demand the gift back.

A truly generous person gives and doesn’t want anything in return

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Moal t1_j1hamwe wrote

This rings very true for me. I grew up with a narcissist father who makes obnoxiously showy acts of generosity. But behind the scenes, he’s screaming, throwing tantrums, and calling me names for refusing to give him thousands of dollars for him to spend on others to show off his “generosity.”

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dr-freddy-112 t1_j1ey16u wrote

I can think of an example of a "generous narcissist".

I have a friend whose father was not only a pastor, but he was also a principal of a school. Outwardly, he seemed like a very honorable and kind person.

Meanwhile, he was abusing his family in heinous ways at home. That abuse extended to select children in the school and the church. But because of his reputation, nobody believes the victims.

It's about image. It's about creating a defense to protect them from accusations.

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backuppasta t1_j1fcs2q wrote

How was he a narcissist? Are you just assuming because he was abusive?

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dr-freddy-112 t1_j1fdn5q wrote

No, there were very obvious signs of narcissism, as well as sociopathic behavior.

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backuppasta t1_j1fe7ta wrote

Ah I only asked cause i was going to say that the behavior sounded more sociopathic to me but this makes sense.

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piper5177 t1_j1ebcxz wrote

I’m pretty sure narcissism is a variable trait. Everyone has some narcissism, some very little and some a lot.

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BlurryBigfoot74 t1_j1egz13 wrote

There's internal narcissism and external narcissism. Some traits of narcissism overlap with mentally healthy people like having a large circle of friends.

Quite often people are called narcissists when they're just highly confident people.

Narcissism gets thrown around a lot, quite often having nothing to do with what psychologists consider narcissm.

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bdubdub t1_j1eolus wrote

Same goes for misuse of the term “antisocial”

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LostMyKarmaElSegundo t1_j1g5522 wrote

Yes, most people use the term to mean "asocial", as in not wanting to be around people. Antisocial behavior is that which is at odds with society, not just wanting to avoid it.

The more you know...

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Kono_Gabby t1_j1ejhkw wrote

I'd describe my father as a narcissist but tbh he probably has anti social personality disorder (not a Dr, he just checks a concerning amount of boxes) but yeah ppl do fly fast and lose with the term narcissist now.

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PandaTheVenusProject t1_j1eqrnd wrote

I've been told that I stood like a narcissist by someone who never talked to me at a show.

It made me and my friend bust up.

I wish there was a popular movie that made fun of someone for misusing the word. If you are confident or just not self depreciating you are a narcissist in America.

It's dangerous to not know what a narcissist actually is.

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cheyenne_sky t1_j1gltzs wrote

There’s not really such a thing as internal vs external narcissism traits. Certain external behaviors may or may not be signs of narcissism, it depends on what’s going on internally to an extent.

For people who have narcissistic traits (and all of us have elements of some) some traits can be favorable for achieving popularity and success. There’s also traits that can be personally and socially detrimental.

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Smurfeggs42 t1_j1fbmr6 wrote

All the people who have to record themselves going to a homeless person and giving them something. Constantly looking at the camera and stuff. They would never do it without a camera it's all a facade

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Littlelisapizza83 t1_j1h6sjf wrote

Charity in general is very narcissistic. Look up the non profit industrial complex.

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Smurfeggs42 t1_j1htmh5 wrote

That's the larger part of it but if I see a dude struggling and I give him a buck that doesn't make me a narcissist. Now if I pull out my phone record myself asking him stupid ass questions while constantly looking at the camera like it's an episode of the office THEN give him the dollar then yes I'm a narcissist.

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sweetkitty7272 t1_j1g3r6m wrote

Dx npd person would make me breakfast in bed every week for 22 years. Was it for me? No. Was i supposed to bring it up in conversation every time I was around other couples/ friends? Yes. Did i get in trouble if I didn't? Yes. I don't even eat first thing in the morning. I would get eggs thrown on me a lot. Plus, 2 days later, I'd hear, "Weren't those pancakes good? I made good pancakes. They were, weren't they?". Generous? Ehh, only to those women who's husband's weren't making them breakfast in bed every weekend.

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CrisiwSandwich t1_j1f8ctj wrote

My aunt is a really generous narcissist. She's done really terrible things like lying about people, causing huge scenes, stealing, starts fights, abandoned her kid for days to get high. She has a habit of always wanting to monopolize everyone's time so she can cry or get rides. She's the kind of person that will show up at your house 5-6days a week uninvited sometimes multiple times a day for hours at at time. She'll say things like as a host you should entertain her her or bring her water. Often times she needs something big done for her at the end of it like a ride or pet sitting or some favor. If you try to limit how often she comes over or explain that you have a life too she will cry or call you selfish. She also feels entitled to full forgiveness basically as soon as she says sorry. Like she let her kid at a friends house with no explanation of where she went after for a week so she could do crack and after 2 weeks sober was enraged that people held her past behaviors against her since she had taken all the effort to change (court ordered).

On the flip side she will send unsolicited gifts that are over the top as a way to guilt you into feeling bad. She throws huge parties that cost too much and tends to incorporate giveaways into most things. She will gift people hundreds of dollars. She buys stuff constantly just to give to people even though she has too many credit cards and isn't anywhere near wealthy.

I have been trying to cut contact with her because of drama she created by taking control of all of my grandparents finances and power of attorney before they died. She basically blocked my mom out and then acted like everyone refused to help her to the distant relatives for extra sympathy and attention and accused me of trying to get power of attorney (this was while she was in the process of getting it herself) because I had the audacity to visit my grandmother in hospice. Tons of lies and just utter disregard for everyone including my grandparents. Prior to all of that I didn't want to deal with her because she is a fall-down-puking-drunk and hasn't had a license in probably 10 years. But it was just the final straw. She keeps sending texts about loving me and keeps giving my mom gifts for holidays and then tries to make me feel like I've wronged her by not coming around because she cares so much about me. I feel like she's just like the kind of person that is the creepy abusive ex that keeps sending flowers and wanting to get back together after months or years.

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Mikimao t1_j1eeqay wrote

Could be, but generosity could also be satisfying a need for the narcissist in question. For example if having more means to give more equals higher status, there are really good reasons to be generous.

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mgslee t1_j1fsa6n wrote

Generous in what way though. The article was a study, they didn't have to actually be generous, they just had to say they were going to be.

Narcissists know what the 'right' answer is and can tell you that but does not mean they will actually do that unless it serves them. Also there generosity can usually come with a catch (loyalty, expected paybacks) The generosity is more like an investment to them.

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TechNickL t1_j1gjrkn wrote

Narcissists give people things to reassure themselves and those people that they aren't narcissists, because "narcissists are bad and I'm not bad, I'm the greatest person who ever lived"

Rest assured they won't give away any more than they feel they have to.

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wlerin t1_j1gtpfp wrote

By finding manly ones. Ones who had enough confidence in themselves and their abilities (whether justified or not) that they could afford to spare some resources for others. Mercy is the privilege of the strong after all. I'm reminded of the king in Beowulf being called "Ring-giver" in praise for his generosity.

I feel the title is a bit confusing. "Moderates" here means that high testosterone reduces the impact of narcissism on generosity. High/low narcissism consistently predicted generosity for participants with low testosterone, but those with high testosterone were moderately generous regardless of narcissism levels (i.e. in between the two extremes).

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xXSpaceturdXx t1_j1fuw5i wrote

I was raised by a narcissist I can say With certainty generosity was not one of the attributes I would use to describe them

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Mattdonlan1 t1_j1fwg29 wrote

It said that high narcissism along with low testosterone lead to more generosity than high narc, high testosterone.

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Moal t1_j1ha9wn wrote

It’s all for show, with no genuine generosity behind the act.

My narcissistic father partakes in this behavior a lot. Often, it involves grifting someone else to get money/items from them, only to then gift to someone else and take credit for it. My father would often scream and yell at me for not giving him thousands of dollars to go spend on his buddies to show off his “generosity.” A narcissist isn’t above scamming others, only to then make a big show of spending it on people they want to impress.

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wanderingsouless t1_j1hu3wp wrote

My ex was an over the top gift giver. If we set a budget for holidays he would ignore it. If I asked for something he would find the most expensive version he could find to buy even if I asked him not too. He expected the same. He often threw fits or pouted if he didn’t get what he wanted for a holiday. He would spend money we didn’t have. He would also buy himself half of his list weeks before a holiday. It’s an interesting place to be in, he wanted to be seen as generous, he would ask who I told about my gifts. I was grateful but also I was expected to feed his image of himself as a great husband so I needed to make sure I was over the top grateful or it didn’t count.

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Asuka-m t1_j1ibr0a wrote

Narcissists can be very generous, but usually to display how kind and thoughtful they are, i.e. gain a good reputation which is a status seeking behavior. Example, if a narcisscist wants to leave someone an extra big tip, they'll make sure others will notice or draw attention to it "well, you have made my day, you earned this, go buy yourself something nice!!" Rather than just quietly handing it to them or stuffing it in the jar

Edit: another prime example is people recording themselves giving free stuff to homeless people, instead of, just giving it to them and not recording proof to plaster it all over the internet for asspats

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ShexyBaish6351 t1_j1ejxlc wrote

As a former research scientist who published a few articles in the same journal (Hormones and Behavior), I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this is a spurious correlation. I wouldn't buy it until this is replicated by another researcher.

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ComradeGibbon t1_j1fenmx wrote

As someone who's on the hormone in question. I feel like people draw a lot of conclusions based on unacknowledged assumptions. Some of which are known not true. Others are unsupported.

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Jackers83 t1_j1fn4zy wrote

I would agree with you completely. I’m in the same boat.

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IllegibleLedger t1_j1fovih wrote

“In low narcissists, testosterone was linked to less prosocial behavior,” Ziemiańska told PsyPost. But “in high narcissists, testosterone was linked to more prosocial choices.”

“Altogether, the pattern of results was a bit counterintuitive,” she said. “The two different factors i.e. psychological trait narcissism and the level of hormone testosterone influenced social behavior in a rather unexpected fashion. As mentioned before, popular beliefs are that high testosterone levels, as well as high narcissism, are linked to competitive, antisocial behavior (even explicit aggression).”

“This is why we were surprised to discover that, contrary to these popular beliefs, endogenous testosterone was associated with lower generosity among less narcissistic — thus more trustful, less cynical, more habitually generous, and less selfish — men,” Ziemiańska explained.

The findings might also have some practical implications.

“One (perhaps somewhat funny) takeaway message from our study would be: if you are choosing a date, beware of highly narcissistic men who are simultaneously low on baseline testosterone – in our studies, they were the least generous (and most selfish) in their decisions,” Czarna added. “They shared the least resources with others. So, when going on a date with one of them – prepare to pick up the bill. Meanwhile, men who were low on both narcissism and testosterone were highly generous.”

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Iamjimmym t1_j1giikr wrote

Low T, Highly generous here and divorced because my ex wife believed me to be the biggest narcissist in the world. She diagnosed me via TikTok. My therapist did not agree. Now we're divorced and she doesn't think I'm a narcissist anymore. Go figure.

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BearTerrapin t1_j1fxg0l wrote

Well shoot. I like to split the check if they're independent then cover the 2nd date.

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chrisdh79 OP t1_j1e5wd2 wrote

From the article: New research provides evidence that narcissism moderates the relationship between testosterone and generosity in men. The study, published in Hormones and Behavior, found that the most generous men tended to be low in endogenous testosterone and simultaneously low in narcissism. Unexpectedly, however, the researchers also found that heightened testosterone levels in combination with heightened narcissism was a significant positive predictor of generosity.

“Physiological changes constantly occurring in living organisms are interconnected with behavioral outcomes in many intricate and fascinating ways,” said co-author Magdalena Ziemiańska, a PhD student at the Polish Academy of Sciences. “We were curious to examine how a normal (i.e. baseline) level of testosterone is linked to social behavior.”

“A simple economic game was applied, in which the participants’ task was to divide points between themselves and a stranger,” Ziemiańska explained. “We wanted to check if a popular belief, derived from animal studies, that high testosterone level is connected with competitive, antisocial behaviors is true in humans.”

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redditshy t1_j1hrmfj wrote

This makes sense to me, because high testosterone and high narcissism to me sounds like macho behavior. The High T High N person wants to be seen as having a lot, and being THE MAN, and all of the fawning and praise that comes after throwing money and favors around. Prob attracts some unsavory characters to take advantage of that need to be viewed in that way.

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Ok-Butterscotch5761 t1_j1g1992 wrote

The over use of the term Narcissism is endemic in Researchers with more than a touch of insecurity and unfulfilled megalomaniacal tendencies.

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BridgeOnColours t1_j1hb25s wrote

Yes probably, but also the choice of researches posted on this sub.

We love to read about narcissists because we think we know one, and our confirmation bias goes "yup, that's him"

In fact I think I'm highly narcissistic thanks to this sub.

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skn133229 t1_j1fsuqz wrote

Not sure how much culture is a confounding factor here. All subjects are from the same country and pool is only 151 participants. Wonder how strong are the correlations found. Also why exclude women? Testosterone should have the same effect on them no?

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SilentHackerDoc t1_j1hhdd3 wrote

Why would testosterone have same effect on women? That's never been true of any sex hormone. Look what estrogen and progesterone do in men vs women. It sounds like you have no education on hormones.

2

skn133229 t1_j1hrusp wrote

You can't exclude women of a serious study based on these silly assumptions that the results might be different. Results in women would provide the kind of nuance in the conclusions that would strengthen this paper. Because this type of study only offers correlations between properties and does not establish causation, you need all the nuances you can get. This is not even a biological study, because it not linking testosterone to other biological functions. It is linking biology to intangible constructs such as generosity so I am not sure what the excuse is. I would argue that if testosterone has this effect on generosity, the effect would be more pronounced in women because this group tends to have lower levels of this hormone in general so any increase in level relative to the average would yield marked differences in generosity. Unfortunately the study does not provide the necessary data to evaluate this hypothesis. Merry Christmas!

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antzcrashing t1_j1fxhss wrote

“One (perhaps somewhat funny) takeaway message from our study would be: if you are choosing a date, beware of highly narcissistic men who are simultaneously low on baseline testosterone – in our studies, they were the least generous (and most selfish) in their decisions,” Czarna added. “They shared the least resources with others. So, when going on a date with one of them – prepare to pick up the bill. Meanwhile, men who were low on both narcissism and testosterone were highly generous.”

What?

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michaelrohansmith t1_j1f0du1 wrote

There is a fine line between doing things for people and trying to control their lives.

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piper5177 t1_j1eb2ao wrote

This makes sense. I could see that this helps social structures by testosterone levels making younger men want to look like a better prospective mate. Narcissistic tendencies are going to make males want to look better, acquire more resources and be more aggressive in pursuing mates. Once mating is accomplished, male testosterone levels drop probably so that they don’t attempt to mate with offspring and be better parents. I wonder if there is a causality in which testosterone levels drop in overpopulated areas, i.e. Japanese men having low testosterone levels and the growing population/age crisis there being caused by the high population density.

I can definitely say that it felt this way in my life. I have two daughters and no sons. My testosterone levels definitely dropped after they were born (I had blood tests taken). I’ve also mellowed considerably while becoming more generous and less vain, as friends and family will attest.

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ipete05 t1_j1ge35i wrote

I feel like this should read “Testosterone levels moderate the association between narcissism and generosity in men.” Am I missing something?

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wlerin t1_j1gug4h wrote

No, you're correct, that is what the article actually says. Except maybe replace association with opposition?

2

JenNtonic t1_j1fq1n7 wrote

“covert narcissism I disguise as altruism” Taylor Swift

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floydink t1_j1gvg9i wrote

“Narcissism is a stereotypically masculine trait” this part of science bugs me. Women are much better at social dynamics than men, and narcissistic women are very good at hiding it and women are more trusted and fall under the radar of suspicion. This stereotype of narcissism being tied to mostly men I believe is faulty study. This goes the same for the study of autism. Men are easier to detect but women due to their enhanced desire for social constructs and manipulation, are much harder to pick out or reach for treatment. Men by far seek treatment not because they want to, but because they get in trouble or get arrested due to their behaviors and then labeled narcissistic, along with societal norms that lead men wanting powerful positions, which in modern day is being pushed into female mentality as well. I’ve met plenty of female narcissists and it’s completely bias to lean so hard on one gender than the other here. Testosterone may play a role but it’s not a defining attribute in what makes one narcissistic

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tarzan322 t1_j1gc4ls wrote

I see these results as possibly being skewed by a few common social issues. One, low testosterone may be associated with those that tend to be bullied or victimized a lot in life, and their seeming lack of generosity may be the result of not trusting others, and a higher dependence on ones own actions to survive. The other, high narcissicism and testosterone may be associated with being possibly more successful financially, and the use of charity for tax write-offs. It just doesn't make any sense that a narcissist would be charitable without outside influences for being that way, unless they view themselves as some humanistic saviour.

3

lovdark t1_j1h6ma8 wrote

This is a dangerous article. This could create a reason to avoid being nice. It creates an excuse avoid giving at all.

3

DuvalHMFIC t1_j1fv13g wrote

So if I’m stingy, but only so people don’t need to be burdened with getting me a gift in return, does that actually make me NOT a Scrooge?

2

OlmKat t1_j1gfujm wrote

Narcissists will love bomb with expensive gifts to get you to believe in the whole ‘soul mate’ thing. The thing the article doesn’t address is how gift giving for a narc is purely transactional and to secure narcissistic supply.

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scrollbreak t1_j1h5rtd wrote

Yep, they seem to have been fooled by the narcissists mask and see transactional as generous and prosocial

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scrollbreak t1_j1h4028 wrote

IMO a poor construct for 'generosity' and 'prosocial'

Run some tests where the high narcissists can give away stuff in a test scenario and nobody will know about it (the test says so - but it lies and records the results) vs regular generous people and see if your construct of 'generosity' holds up. Or whether they aren't generous or prosocial, they are transactional. They are just excellent at fooling researchers and others into thinking they are generous and prosocial.

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1

Ianfectious t1_j1fzau4 wrote

So my testosterone is in the low 200s and I anm 36 y/o. I refuse to get on the therapy this early in life cuz down the road (soon) I wanna have a child. Eat the hell do I do?

1

emorymom t1_j1g8sss wrote

Is there a dating app where they take some psych tests and then get their testosterone checked?

1

Professional-Cow-949 t1_j1gki6b wrote

Two different things. Testosterone leads to narcicism leads to increased selfishness along a continuum. However testosterone also increases risk taking. Since giving away stuff and offering to pay is high risk, it happens more often in situations where men have increased testosterone due to the presense of the opposite sex.

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scrollbreak t1_j1h5uj7 wrote

It's transactional, it's not giving anything away - it has the appearance of giving things away, much like a worm on a hook has the appearance of an easy to eat meal to a fish

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Professional-Cow-949 t1_j1ipsps wrote

in general, higher testosterone in response to the opposite sex means men take higher risks, like doing risky tricks and stunts to impress. Think, a bunch of guys in a skate park in front of a group of girls.

I understand your point, however, my point is that there is a selflessness in the above example. Along the same vein, a man will offer to pay just to show off.

Both paying and stunts are in response to how testosterone promotes risk taking.

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scrollbreak t1_j1jxbnp wrote

Transactions, like trying to buy good shares that pay off in value and/or dividends, are risk taking as well. I really don't see evidence there of testosterone definitely leading to selflessness.

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Mr_Em-3 t1_j1gvi6g wrote

Statement after statement

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Dause t1_j1h41mf wrote

Heck I’m so into myself but I’m one of the most generous people I know at the same time.....

1

Lightworkerservices t1_j1h5lac wrote

It's a classic narcissistic trait to appear generous, the ugly raises up when the party does not feel properly rewarded and or paid back.

Testosterone has nothing to do with the pure ego. It's just selfish and unrealizing of anyone else. It's really sad for the true narcissist.

1

xanaxombie t1_j1ihtjp wrote

Low testosterone levels + uncontrolled narcissism = Republicans

0

666google t1_j1g94te wrote

This explains so much

−1

Tad-Disingenuous t1_j1fq1wb wrote

I remember in my early 20s, before the internet is what it is now, I realized how most actions are narcissistic, I am 13 and this is deep. How giving and sacrifice makes us feel better about ourselves. In my personal experience, I've met far more women with far more selfish desires than men, so idk what testosterone has to do with anything.

Say what you will, far more men are taken advantage by women than vice versa. Not commenting on the how the dating pool works, it's what it is.

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scrollbreak t1_j1h5o12 wrote

>Say what you will

Even if it's evidence based fact?

1